Car Free Lifestyle
MHellka1
live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
medical, etc. would be major factors.
Thanks
Soul Surgeon
considered a freak?
suzn
"MHellka1" <MHel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VPXm4.8225$KJ5.1...@typhoon1.tampabay.rr.com...
My daughter has a few friends who find it very convenient not to have a
car...they just bum rides off every one else.....
weidwall
College towns are another. I lived in Ann Arbor and Chapel Hill and
never owned a car. Didn't bum rides, either.
Ruth Ann
*Mary*
Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> x-no-archive: yes
> Routine trips
> to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
can't wait to get a car!
Mary
JanetB
>Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>considered a freak?
I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and went without a car for
years quite happily. I know lots of others who do the same.
Even now that I have a car (1981 Isuzu, runs great) I hardly
have to use it. In fact, trying to find parking in many parts
of San Francisco and Berkeley is such torture that one would
have to be demented (or seriously masochistic) to even try to
drive there.
I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
Illinois) who don't have cars.
Janet
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melvalena
SoulS...@webtv.net (Soul Surgeon) wrote:
>Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>considered a freak?
>
*********************************************
Competition brings out the best in products and
the worst in people.--David Sarnoff
Don't be reckless with other people's hearts.
Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours
******************************************************
Joel M. Eichen
>x-no-archive: yes
>(Soul Surgeon) wrote:
>>Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>>considered a freak?
>Portland, OR
>NYC
>Washington D.C
>Toronto, CA
>Most European metropolitan areas.
Huskaloosa, MS.
Then again, there is no where to go but the gas station across the
street.
>Our country is backward in that we don't have a transit system that is
>integrated. We are stuck thinking there is only one option for any type of
>transportation.
>Business has done many things to cut their cost of delivering their products
>to market. They have one last great hurdle in reducing their costs and the
>time to bring things to market. They need clear roads. Our only hope is for
>them to see the gross inefficiency in our transportation systems and press
>their government (they pay for it, so we may as well call it theirs) to get
>those people off of the roads so they can reduct their costs.
>I heard a while back that NYC is considering ripping up some streets and
>putting in light rail. There would be increased park space, better stormwater
>absoprtion, less pollution, and maybe people would get to know their
>neighbors, thus, fostering a sense of community.
>Don't get me wrong a car is wonderful in the right circumstance. Routine trips
>to work and to the market are inefficient via car. Inefficient in;
>operating cost, environmental impact, resources to maintain roads, and wasted
>land. In the Los Angeles area, I have heard, 25% of the occupied land is for
>vehicles. Imagine what you could do if you had 10% of that land for other
>uses. You could get a large gain in park/open space or community gardens. You
>could have more property for each house.
>Charles
Joel M. Eichen
>New York City. Lots of people don't have cars there.
Jeez, ya mean there is a New York, Florida as well as NY,NY?
>College towns are another. I lived in Ann Arbor and Chapel Hill and
>never owned a car. Didn't bum rides, either.
Bet you stayed home a lot too.
>Ruth Ann
Joel M. Eichen
Joel M. Eichen
>Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
>live without a car?
Okeechobee State Prison.
You'll save on food too.
>Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
>medical, etc. would be major factors.
>Thanks
paulz28
square sunglass frames that fit over your prescription glasses!
Seriously, the urban sprawl out here in SoCal makes a car a necessity.
Conveninent, effective mass transit will never happen here in my
lifetime. Without a car out here, you are dead meat! Go to downtown
Los Angeles, drive 50 miles in any direction, and you will still be in
the city.
MHellka1 wrote:
>
> Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
> live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
> medical, etc. would be major factors.
>
> Thanks
--
x-no-archive: yes
He sleeps til noon but before its dark, he'll have every picnic basket
in Jellystone park. Yogi's livin' like a millionaire, that's because
he's smarter than the average bear.
Pat Meadows
<MHel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
>Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
>live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
>medical, etc. would be major factors.
>
Newark, Delaware (a university town) would qualify. The
university runs free buses all around the town for the
populace (only from 8 am - 5 pm on week-days, though, making
it fairly useless for anyone who works).
You can live close enough to grocery, library, and medical
to walk to all of them. DART (Delaware Area Rapid
Transport: buses) has pretty good bus service to and from
Wilmington, and to Christiana Mall (a very large mall) as
well as other places.
I suspect a lot of college towns would qualify.
Pat
Joel M. Eichen
>SoulS...@webtv.net (Soul Surgeon) wrote:
>>Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>>considered a freak?
>I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and went without a car for
>years quite happily. I know lots of others who do the same.
>Even now that I have a car (1981 Isuzu, runs great) I hardly
>have to use it. In fact, trying to find parking in many parts
>of San Francisco and Berkeley is such torture that one would
>have to be demented (or seriously masochistic) to even try to
>drive there.
>I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
>Illinois) who don't have cars.
Really?
In Philadelphia, even the homeless have cars. Some also have SUVs.
Joel M. Eichen
>Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
>news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
>> x-no-archive: yes
>> Routine trips
>> to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
>OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
>then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
>thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
>have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
>pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
>on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
>can't wait to get a car!
>Mary
Mary!
Get a bicycle. With saddlebags for groceries.
Joel M. Eichen
>Austin, TX over by UTexas.
>SoulS...@webtv.net (Soul Surgeon) wrote:
>>Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>>considered a freak?
>>
>*********************************************
> Competition brings out the best in products and
>the worst in people.--David Sarnoff
Sarnoff? RCA, right?
Wht year was the last U.S. made television set made?
Joel M. Eichen
>You'll have to at least get a golf cart and then wear those over-sized,
>square sunglass frames that fit over your prescription glasses!
>Seriously, the urban sprawl out here in SoCal makes a car a necessity.
>Conveninent, effective mass transit will never happen here in my
>lifetime. Without a car out here, you are dead meat!
And . . .sometimes in Southern California, even with a car, you are
dead meat!
>Go to downtown
>Los Angeles, drive 50 miles in any direction, and you will still be in
>the city.
Or . . . . Go to downtown
Los Angeles, try to walk 5 miles in any direction, and you will still
be dead meat
in the city.
>MHellka1 wrote:
>>
>> Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
>> live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
>> medical, etc. would be major factors.
>>
melvalena
>>*********************************************
>> Competition brings out the best in products and
>>the worst in people.--David Sarnoff
>
>Sarnoff? RCA, right?
>
>Wht year was the last U.S. made television set made?
I don't know...I liked the quote.
It speaks volumes to the partner-dance community which I used to be
very involved in. (swing, c/w, a some ballroom).
*********************************************
Competition brings out the best in products and
the worst in people.--David Sarnoff
Don't be reckless with other people's hearts.
JanetB
$Mk2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
jo...@earthlink.net (Joel M. Eichen) wrote:
>>I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
>>Illinois) who don't have cars.
>
>Really?
Yep. Of course it depends on age, income level, lifestyle,
etc. The car-less Chicagoans I know are either young, elderly,
or low-income. My grandparents lived in a building near the
Lake for over thirty years without a car, and were just fine.
When I visited we took the bus everywhere. I do the same now
when I go back there, and find that the bus and the el run
pretty frequently. And the subway is the best way out to O'Hare.
I even met someone in LA who didn't have a car -- and it wasn't
because she couldn't afford it. She just hated driving, and was
lucky enough that some express bus went from near her house to
her office area. I'm afraid this crosses the line for me
though -- you have to spend your life on public transit to get
anywhere in LA.
Holly Grimmett
I was doing fine without one here in Clearwater for quite awhile; I only
bought a car because (1) it was a heck of a good price and (2) the guy
selling it is a good friend of my mother's (older man) who needed to make
the rent one month. Major cities are your best bet, whether in FL or any
other state. I used to live in Orlando and the bus system there was really
lousy then (but that was 5 yrs ago; I don't know if it's improved since
then.) Your email address says you're in Tampa; this or Miami is probably
as good as it's going to get. Maybe Key West, if you can afford it.
--
:-)---Holly---<--<-@
h_gri...@yahoo.com
"MHellka1" <MHel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VPXm4.8225$KJ5.1...@typhoon1.tampabay.rr.com...
Dan McGuirk
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
San Francisco. Of course, you'll probably fit in better here if you
_are_ considered a freak...
Noach
similar question to rec.travel.usa-canada.
I live in NYC and I want to move to a warm climate and have the exact same
question about being able to get by easily w/out a car.
I am considering the Miami area and which I have heard would be okay.
San Diego is my other top choice but I know nothing about being carfree
there. Any info. would be appreciated.
Also, it's a long shot, but I am also considering Hawaii and I have heard
that Honolulu has extensive public transportation and things are close
together. Is there public transportation throughout the island of Oahu or
just in the Honolulu metro area?
While we are at it, since this is a 'frugal living' ng, I would appreciate
hearing which residential areas of all three destinations: Miami area, San
Diego, and Honolulu, are (relatively) affordable and safe.
Thank you very much for any info.
A Ferszt
>
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
Most of the rest of the world.
A Ferszt
>
> Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> > x-no-archive: yes
> > Routine trips
> > to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
>
> OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
> pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
> on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
> can't wait to get a car!
>
> Mary
Carried that many bags all the time in college and when
living overseas. Used a large rucksack, packed full and
carried one full bag in each hand. Most supermarkets don't
seem to pack bags properly and put too little in each.
You could possibly go shopping more frequently to avoid
carrying so much at one time. I pick up things on the way
home from work, or after visiting friends or whatever.
butt...@powerpuff.com
when they were much younger (now 12 and 9) and we lived in town. I'd
ride the 1 1/2 to the grocery on my bike, pulling the wagon, but without
kids every chance I had.
Maybe you could find a similar thing to use. I'd sell you mine if you
were near south-central Indiana since it isn't practical to use
anymore. We now live way out in the boonies, on top of a hill, and
there is no way I am going to ride a bike pulling that wagon up a hill
which is 1/2 mile high.
CC
Larisa Migachyov wrote:
>
> *Mary* wrote:
>
> > Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> > news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> > > x-no-archive: yes
> > > Routine trips
> > > to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
>
> > OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> > then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> > thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> > have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
> > pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
> > on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
> > can't wait to get a car!
>
> I bicycle to the grocery store. My bike can carry up to 4 grocery bags.
> No trouble so far.
>
> --
> Larisa Migachyov
> Quaternion Press Publishing House
> Have a math question? Ask the Quaternion at
> http://www.quaternionpress.com/mathhelp.html
Larisa Migachyov
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
The SF Bay Area. I've been carfree for more than 2 years now. No
problems so far.
Larisa Migachyov
> Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> > x-no-archive: yes
> > Routine trips
> > to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
> OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
> pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
> on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
> can't wait to get a car!
I bicycle to the grocery store. My bike can carry up to 4 grocery bags.
No trouble so far.
Joel M. Eichen
>In article <pf0n4.4643
>$Mk2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
>jo...@earthlink.net (Joel M. Eichen) wrote:
>>>I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
>>>Illinois) who don't have cars.
>>
>>Really?
>Yep. Of course it depends on age, income level, lifestyle,
>etc. The car-less Chicagoans I know are either young, elderly,
>or low-income. My grandparents lived in a building near the
>Lake for over thirty years without a car, and were just fine.
>When I visited we took the bus everywhere. I do the same now
>when I go back there, and find that the bus and the el run
>pretty frequently. And the subway is the best way out to O'Hare.
Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
cheaper!
Joel M. Eichen
>Soul Surgeon wrote:
>> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>> considered a freak?
>The SF Bay Area. I've been carfree for more than 2 years now. No
>problems so far.
Yeh, but everybody thinks you are saying "carefree," not "carfree."
Paula in Houston
Joel M. Eichen <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:9e0n4.4469$563.1...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> "*Mary*" <mmgr...@stratos.net> wrote:
>
>
> >Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> >news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> >> x-no-archive: yes
> >> Routine trips
> >> to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
>
> >OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> >then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> >thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> >have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live
in a
> >pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour
service
> >on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays.
We
> >can't wait to get a car!
>
>
> Mary!
>
> Get a bicycle. With saddlebags for groceries.
>
with baskets. She rode it everywhere, until she was in her late 60's.
Obviously it's best to keep off of major roads, but if you live in a small
town, or have a grocery store that you can get to buy riding on the
neighborhood streets, it's not a bad, car-free alternative. Good exercise
too.
Paula
Larisa Migachyov
> Larisa Migachyov <l...@Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> >Soul Surgeon wrote:
> >> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> >> considered a freak?
> >The SF Bay Area. I've been carfree for more than 2 years now. No
> >problems so far.
> Yeh, but everybody thinks you are saying "carefree," not "carfree."
Well, considering the worries I had about traffic tickets, accidents, and
the astronomical insurance rate I was paying (due to all those accidents
and speeding tickets), both of these would apply now.
Steve Blume
fee you have the right to use of a communally owned car. The average
cars just sits 95% of the time. I've lived 25 years in Europe without
owning a car. Car co-ops are commonplace. The expenses and my sense
of environmental responsibility outweighed the convenience. I now walk
and use public trans during the Chicago winter, but confess to running
(and living in) a minivan the rest of the year. I have no problem
walking a mile to the market every other day with a daypack to buy
groceries. The fresh air is good and I don't carry any "extra" pounds
that these people that are addicted to driving any distance further
than the mailbox.
Steve
sblume at mediaone dot net
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
paulz28
Joel M. Eichen
>Order groceries on the internet and have them delivered to you.
Since Priceline dot com, I have not been outside of my house in 6
years.
Noach
store.
"Joel M. Eichen" <jo...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:GXgn4.5894$563.2...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Lech K. Lesiak
> OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
I do all the grocery shopping using my bike. It means stopping at the
store three or four times a week, but the grocery stores are usually on my
route. I could cut that number of trips down to one if i got a bike
trailer, but it's not worth it for me.
Bike shopping is far easier on the nerves than using a car. Don't have to
worry about traffic, parking, or getting your car broken into. You also
get to park closer to the door than even the handicapped.
The only negatives are that you have to learn through trial and error how
much you can carry, how to distribute the load, and it takes a couple of
minutes to load up.
Cheers,
Lech
Joel M. Eichen
>But I thought w/ Priceline you still have to *go* to your local grocery
>store.
You do. And you'll be lucky to save anything after your initial $10
runs out. Of course, you can earn $3 at a time by taking surveys and
stuff, but hey! That's like work.
Sometimes their prices are below supermarket prices, sometimes its
higher. Again, they are relying on the witlessness of the American
public.
Cheers,
Joel
---
Joel M. Eichen
>Some communities, such as Portland, offer car co-ops. For a membership
>fee you have the right to use of a communally owned car.
We have that. But the guys who borrow the cars are car thieves. Later
on they look outside and somebody else has stolen their stolen car.
>The average
>cars just sits 95% of the time.
Which is fine by me just to keep you from eating Kentucky Fried
Chicken inside my car.
> I've lived 25 years in Europe without
>owning a car.
I think I know you. You are guy I saw walking.
>Car co-ops are commonplace. The expenses and my sense
>of environmental responsibility outweighed the convenience. I now walk
>and use public trans during the Chicago winter, but confess to running
>(and living in) a minivan the rest of the year.
Is there a shower?
> I have no problem
>walking a mile to the market every other day with a daypack to buy
>groceries. The fresh air is good and I don't carry any "extra" pounds
>that these people that are addicted to driving any distance further
>than the mailbox.
>Steve
Wondering what you do for work?
Lech K. Lesiak
> Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
> cheaper!
That's absurd. Around here a bus pass costs 40 bucks a month. I defy
anyone to run a car for that cost. My auto insurance alone costs that.
Cheers,
Lech
Joel M. Eichen
>On Sun, 6 Feb 2000, Joel M. Eichen wrote:
>> Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
>> cheaper!
>That's absurd. Around here a bus pass costs 40 bucks a month.
$10 a week! I'm movin'
Lech K. Lesiak
> Order groceries on the internet and have them delivered to you.
A Toronto Globe and Mail writer reported on her experience with online
grocery shopping. Generally more expensive, and the delivery times are
inconvenient. She did end up getting a bunch of groceries free because of
foul-ups.
Cheers,
Lech
Steve Blume
>
> >Some communities, such as Portland, offer car co-ops. For a
membership fee you have the right to use of a communally owned car.
>
> We have that. But the guys who borrow the cars are car thieves. Later
> on they look outside and somebody else has stolen their stolen car.
>
> >The average
> >cars just sits 95% of the time.
>
> Which is fine by me just to keep you from eating Kentucky Fried
> Chicken inside my car.
Look where it's gotten you.
>
> > I've lived 25 years in Europe without
> >owning a car.
>
> I think I know you. You are guy I saw walking.
pack. And yours?
>
> >Car co-ops are commonplace. The expenses and my sense
> >of environmental responsibility outweighed the convenience. I now
>walk and use public trans during the Chicago winter, but confess to
>
> Is there a shower?
The shower is the nearest lake or river, or a "solar shower", sold at K-
mart for $10.
>
> > I have no problem
> >walking a mile to the market every other day with a daypack to buy
> >groceries. The fresh air is good and I don't carry any "extra"
pounds
> >that these people that are addicted to driving any distance further
> >than the mailbox.
>
> >Steve
>
> Wondering what you do for work?
frugally, saved my money instead of pouring into a gas tank and on
insurance. How much vacation time do you have?
Joel M. Eichen
Well then foul-up some groceries right over to my door too!
>Cheers,
>Lech
JanetB
>
>> Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is
>> way
>> cheaper!
>
>That's absurd. Around here a bus pass costs 40 bucks a month.
>anyone to run a car for that cost. My auto insurance alone
>costs that.
You're absolutely right. Most cities have bus or transit pass
programs for similar prices. When I did without a car here in
the Bay Area (where I used a combination of buses and BART), I
spent about that much for transit each month. It was the same
when I lived in Illinois. With car payments, maintenance,
insurance, and parking, I can't imagine how someone running a
car could spend that little per month.
Although I haven't heard of this sort of thing in other areas,
there's another option in the Bay Area that I used when I did a
summer internship in San Francisco (commuting from Oakland).
There are various curbside stops around town where people line
up for "casual carpools." Cars pull up, folks get in (2 or 3
passengers from the line, depending on whether there are more
cars waiting for passengers or vice versa), and then you drive
off to downtown SF where the dropoff point is the bus terminal
building. The drivers save money because they get to use the
carpool lane over the Bay Bridge and don't have to pay the
bridge toll, and the riders get a free ride into the city. At
the time I used it, it worked only one way (East Bay to SF), so
I would have to take BART home. However, it cut commuting costs
by half. These days, they have added carpooling back to the
East Bay in the evenings, and the drivers get to use a faster
bridge on-ramp. If I worked in the city (I now work in
Oakland), I would use it and have no commute cost at all. It's
very handy, but perhaps not transferable to other locations.
Dennis
>
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
Had you considered the circus?
Dennis (evil)
Rune5
>Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
>live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
>medical, etc. would be major factors.
Key West, but it's so expensive to live there that it probably wouldn't be a
long term situation. Housing for one thing is so expensive that cops, firemen,
etc are moonlighting just to keep up with the costs. I saw in the paper (Miami
Herald) last year that some employers have gone to the extent of offering
housing with the jobs...
paulz28
mean:
150 Italian communities ban cars for a day
By GUNTHER KERN
http://www.nando.net/healthscience/story/0,1080,500164256-500207952-500954351-0,00.html
ROME (February 6, 2000 9:14 a.m. EST
http://www.nandotimes.com) - About 150 Italian towns and cities
banned all but electric vehicles and public transportation from
their streets Sunday, as part of a one-day experiment to improve
air quality in heavily polluted city centers. Rome, Florence and
Milan were among the cities.
To make life easier for those addicted to their cars, public
transportation and access to many museums and archaeological
sites were free in some cities while others offered reductions.
The ban was promoted by Environment Minister Edo Ronchi, but
individual cities could decide whether they wanted to participate.
The next proposed dates for car-free days are March 5, April 9
and May 7.
"These four Sundays will mark a turning point in urban transport
and win over skeptics," said Ronchi, who arrived in Rome's central
Piazza Venezia with his 2 1/2-year-old son Nicolo on his electric
bicycle.
The previous car-free day, in 92 towns and cities in September,
turned out to be a flop, but Ronchi said he was happy with the
support shown by mayors for his latest initiative.
"This is necessary oxygen for our lungs," he said. "It helps cut an
accumulation of pollutants and interrupts continuous exposure."
Grazia Francescato, leader of the nation's Green Party, welcomed
the one-day ban, rejecting criticism that on Monday, things would
be back to the normal chaos and pollution.
"We do not want our children to remain under house arrest
because of smog," she said, adding that the ban meant "no
sacrifice."
Ten cities ordered all but emergency traffic to stop. They included
Milan and Turin, which both suffer from severe smog during
winter and summer months and were shrouded in thick fog
Sunday, as well as Naples.
In Rome and in four other cities, buses, streetcars and subways
were free while reduced-price travel was offered in Florence, Turin,
Genoa, Ferrara and Pistoia.
Palermo city officials have gone further, deciding to close off the
city center on every one of the 17 Sundays until the end of May.
According to World Health Organization figures, 15,000 people die
in Italy every year due to smog-related illnesses, and 80,000 in
Europe.
But Ivo Allegrini, head of the air pollution department at the
National Research Center (CNR), estimates that car-free Sundays
only reduce pollution levels by 2 percent a month.
Bans once a week would cut smog by 7 percent, which he said
was significant but still not drastic enough to really improve air
quality.
"We must better inform people on the risks of pollution, and
above all we must make sure that public transport can satisfy
mobility demands," he said.
"If people are unhappy with buses and subways, they will not only
shun public transports on Sundays but also on other weekdays."
MHellka1 wrote:
>
> Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
> live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
> medical, etc. would be major factors.
>
> Thanks
Soul Surgeon
I know I would not be able to live such a hedonistic lifestyle with a
car on just $8 an hour. Also I am 7 minutes from work on foot so I am
doing quite fine without one. the only downside is that I will never be
able to get any chicks but I am used to it by now.
Larisa Migachyov
> MHellka1 <MHel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote:
> > Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can conveniently
> > live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery, library,
> > medical, etc. would be major factors.
> I am not sure you would save any money without a car.
> I mean, you would not spend money on car but then you not have
> many job opportunities that would pay off the car and get you
> more money. Think of a car not as spending, but as an investment
> that pays off really well.
> The only reason I see for car-free living is heatlh benefits. I think I
> would be much healthier if I used a bike to get everywhere and did have a
> car. That's a much better reason, I think.
OK. I am a college student, so my lifestyle is kinda different; but here
is a rough estimate:
Car cost/ year: $2,000 (assuming I buy a $10000 car and it lasts 5 years)
Car insurance / year : $3,000 (this is what I actually paid)
Gas costs / year : $20/week * 50 weeks/year = $1000
Repair costs / year = $500 (minimum - I actually spent more than that)
Parking / year = $100
Total = $6,600/year
This $6,600 /year could be spent on a more expensive apartment closer to
work; it could allow you to get a job that pays that much less; it could
pay for bicycle/other transportation expenses. It's a lot of money.
Also, the sum does not include the speeding tickets that I ended up paying
for, on a regular basis.
paulz28
Julie
been puzzling me for a while.
I know that in the US having a car seems to be almost "mandatory" and
that people seem to expect to drive just about everywhere (I apologise
if I'm stereotyping Americans here, but I can only go by what I have
read). I was wondering if you have to pay to park your car in most
places? In the UK I don't know of any major town or city where it is
possible to park a car anywhere near any of the shops or city centre
offices without having to pay (where I live the cost is just about to
rise to £5.50 per day to park a car). We also pay the equivalent of
approx. $4.00 per gallon of petrol.
I'm wondering if this is the reason that it seems more "acceptable"
and easier in Europe (from what I know of the UK and other European
countries) to not own a car than it appears to be in the US.
Julie
Dan
> Also, it's a long shot, but I am also considering Hawaii and I have heard
> that Honolulu has extensive public transportation and things are close
> together. Is there public transportation throughout the island of Oahu or
> just in the Honolulu metro area?
The City & County of Honolulu (which encompasses all of Oahu) does have a
rather good bus system, TheBus (http://www.thebus.org/). Basic features:
* bus stops within walking distance of 90%+ of the island's population.
* $1 (50c for students and maybe seniors) gets you a ride and a transfer.
* unlimited-ride monthly passes are $25 for adults, $12.50 for students.
* seniors and handicapped get unlimited-ride passes for $20/2 years.
* all buses have bike racks.
* most if not all buses are wheelchair lift equipped.
The only weaknesses are:
* lack of 24-hour service (even the best routes stop between 2 and 4 AM).
* dare I say overutilization? some are standing-room-only... tourists! :)
It's one of the better systems I've seen (and I've seen more than a few).
Maisha was recently amazed when someone seemed terribly concerned about
whether she'd be able to get somewhere without a car, and tried to find
her a ride - there's a bus stop in front of our house, and a bus stop in
front of where she was going!
I don't find it too surprising, though - 10 years ago, I drove to work
3 miles (1 town) away from where I lived, never noticing that there was a
bus going along the exact same route, let alone that the bus stop was
closer to the office than where I had to park! :) So when folks have no
concept of the buses around them, or just know that the buses are there,
and assume they don't go anywhere useful, I know where they're coming
from. :)
> While we are at it, since this is a 'frugal living' ng, I would appreciate
> hearing which residential areas of all three destinations: Miami area, San
> Diego, and Honolulu, are (relatively) affordable and safe.
The part of Palolo Valley where we live, has (according to www.apbnews.com)
a crime rate 1.25 to 2 times the "national average," which makes it safer
than just about anywhere in downtown Honolulu or Waikiki, but less safe
than a few blocks down the valley from us.
Oahu's property prices are not cheap; we didn't have a lot of choices
when it came to finding somewhere that was affordable, close enough to
my job downtown, and far enough from downtown to be a little bit quiet.*
-Dan
* Except on holidays or any other occasion that might, in the minds of
other residents of our fine island, merit the detonation of a few tons
of fireworks... ;)
--
Dan Birchall - Palolo Valley, Hawaii - http://dan.scream.org/
GenXceptional Quaker ex-slacker hacker hiker 'rycher recycler
Mumble mumble http://www.alladvantage.com/go.asp?refid=HAJ047
Addresses expire. If replies bounce, take out the hex stamp.
Chloe
where a person might want to start and end up are probably longer in most
parts of the U.S. than in many places in Europe. This is , of course, due to
geographic and historical reasons; when our country was settled people
figured there was no point in developing things densely because it looked
like there was always going to be unlimited space to spread out. Also in the
early years of the automobile our government established policies that
pretty much ensured the widespread success of the automobile industry, by
effectively turning cars into something Americans would have to have.
Forward-thinking politicians understood this would generate tons of tax
revenues and do a lot to drive our capitalist economy.
In my experience what we pay for parking is closely related to the supply of
available parking in any given area. For example, in our large metropolitan
areas it's very costly to park (but people have better public transportation
available than elsewhere); in our smaller cities it's often free or
relatively inexpensive (we still may have to pay near the city center or at
some area where people congregate like a university); and in our small towns
and rural areas it's usually free or costs no more than pocket change.
To give you an example, my city of 250,000 does have a public bus system,
but its routes are mostly limited to the major arteries of town. People who
live downtown or near the university don't have access to a grocery within
reasonable walking or biking distance, although it would be possible to
travel there on a bus. The bottom line is that life in this town would be
pretty miserable and inconvenient without a car.
"Julie" <j4j...@NOSPAMclara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:389e22d9...@news.clara.net...
: Sorry, this query isn't completely on topic, but it something that's
:
:
Pat Meadows
(Julie) wrote:
>Sorry, this query isn't completely on topic, but it something that's
>been puzzling me for a while.
>
>I know that in the US having a car seems to be almost "mandatory" and
>that people seem to expect to drive just about everywhere (I apologise
>if I'm stereotyping Americans here, but I can only go by what I have
>read). I was wondering if you have to pay to park your car in most
>places? In the UK I don't know of any major town or city where it is
>possible to park a car anywhere near any of the shops or city centre
>offices without having to pay (where I live the cost is just about to
>rise to £5.50 per day to park a car). We also pay the equivalent of
>approx. $4.00 per gallon of petrol.
No, we don't have nearly the amount of "pay" parking as
you do in the UK. Yes, it exists downtown in large cities.
But the more expected thing, in suburban areas and small
towns, is that shops/malls, etc. have free parking.
Or in many towns, the parking near shops is metered but
costs something like $0.50/hour.
For an example, we've only paid for parking once in the
last year, I believe: at a hospital in downtown
Philadelphia.
Our gasoline is much less costly than yours as you know,
even though it's recently gone up. And, you know, the
distances are much much greater here: it's a much more
spread-out country. This is really a much greater factor
than you can probably imagine unless you've actually been
here. The difference is striking. Very. When my husband
emigrated here in 97, the thing which kept surprising him
was the SPACE, how much space we have here and how
spread-out things are.
In many (perhaps most) areas, there is essentially no
public transport, and what little there is, is apt to be
exceedingly inconvenient.
The cost of the vehicles themselves is also quite a bit
less, I believe, than in the UK.
(I'm basing my statements above on my experiences living
in the USA all my life, except two years in Canada, my two
fairly long visits to the UK, traveling to various areas
within England and Wales, and my husband's experiences
living in the UK 40+ years. I've no URL's or cites to prove
any of what I've said above.) She said cautiously.... :)
Pat
Julie
wrote:
<snipped my own post>
>
> No, we don't have nearly the amount of "pay" parking as
>you do in the UK. Yes, it exists downtown in large cities.
>But the more expected thing, in suburban areas and small
>towns, is that shops/malls, etc. have free parking.
>Or in many towns, the parking near shops is metered but
>costs something like $0.50/hour.
I thought that was probably the case. I only asked because the
subject of paying to park in US towns/cities has never (in my
recollection) been discussed on this NG. Also, I don't like only
receiving my impressions of another country by what I see on the TV or
in films (which is why I enjoy NGs so much because they give a real
idea of other people's lives)
>
> For an example, we've only paid for parking once in the
>last year, I believe: at a hospital in downtown
>Philadelphia.
>
> Our gasoline is much less costly than yours as you know,
>even though it's recently gone up. And, you know, the
>distances are much much greater here: it's a much more
>spread-out country. This is really a much greater factor
>than you can probably imagine unless you've actually been
>here. The difference is striking. Very. When my husband
>emigrated here in 97, the thing which kept surprising him
>was the SPACE, how much space we have here and how
>spread-out things are.
I hope to find out one day :) One of the reasons that I'm trying to
be more frugal is that both myself and my husband would love to be
able to spend six months or more touring around the US (or at least
fit in as much of it as possible).
>
> In many (perhaps most) areas, there is essentially no
>public transport, and what little there is, is apt to be
>exceedingly inconvenient.
Unfortunately, that is the same here. I wouldn't mind the parking
charges imposed so much if I had a choice, but I'm often unable to use
public transport. I'm currently learning to ride a motorbike because
they are free to park.
>
> The cost of the vehicles themselves is also quite a bit
>less, I believe, than in the UK.
I think you're right. I think that cars seem to come under the same
"rule" as a lot of other products - i.e. if it costs £12000 for
something here it will cost $12000 there, which is a huge difference
(depending on the exchange rates at any given time of course).
>
> (I'm basing my statements above on my experiences living
>in the USA all my life, except two years in Canada, my two
>fairly long visits to the UK, traveling to various areas
>within England and Wales, and my husband's experiences
>living in the UK 40+ years. I've no URL's or cites to prove
>any of what I've said above.) She said cautiously.... :)
I wasn't after cites, just experience :) Thanks.
>
>Pat
>
Julie
Julie
<snip>
>In my experience what we pay for parking is closely related to the supply of
>available parking in any given area. For example, in our large metropolitan
>areas it's very costly to park (but people have better public transportation
>available than elsewhere); in our smaller cities it's often free or
>relatively inexpensive (we still may have to pay near the city center or at
>some area where people congregate like a university); and in our small towns
>and rural areas it's usually free or costs no more than pocket change.
That is what I presumed. Thanks for the info.
>
>To give you an example, my city of 250,000 does have a public bus system,
>but its routes are mostly limited to the major arteries of town. People who
>live downtown or near the university don't have access to a grocery within
>reasonable walking or biking distance, although it would be possible to
>travel there on a bus. The bottom line is that life in this town would be
>pretty miserable and inconvenient without a car.
Unfortunately, it's the same here, but we pay huge amounts of money
for the "convenience" of running a car in the UK. I want to move over
there :-)
Julie
Lech K. Lesiak
> subject of paying to park in US towns/cities has never (in my
> recollection) been discussed on this NG. Also, I don't like only
> receiving my impressions of another country by what I see on the TV or
In my town of 800,000 people pay parking only exists in the city core,
hospitals, and universities. Shopping areas outside downtown all have
free parking. This is quite unlike Europe for perfectly understandable
reasons - North America's population density is much lower. France has a
population of 55 million living in an area half the size of Alberta, which
has a population of slightly over two million.
Cheers,
Lech
Lech K. Lesiak
> Unfortunately, it's the same here, but we pay huge amounts of money
> for the "convenience" of running a car in the UK. I want to move over
> there :-)
North Americans pay huge amounts of money for the convenience of running
cars as well, but the costs are often hidden. Parts of Canada spend large
sums on snow removal. Distances between towns are greater, so road
building and maintenance are more expensive on a per capita basis, but
these costs are hidden because the car driver is not billed directly for
them. If all the costs involved in building and maintaining the
infrastructure that autos require were reflected in the price of gasoline
North Americans would be paying a lot more at the pump.
Raising petrol prices is not politically appealing in North America.
Alberta has the lowest retail gasoline prices of any province in Canada,
but people still complain.
Cheers,
Lech
Lauri Diehl
We don't pay $3000/year for 2 cars, but we are probably much older
and have clean driving records. Also get some cost break by buying
homeowners and car insurance from the same company. I do remember
paying outrageous car insurance prices (even with a perfect driving
record) when I moved from Kansas to Colorado - at that time they
really penalized drivers under 25. My costs went down dramatically
after my 25th birthday. Car insurance rates are higher here in
California than they were in Colorado, especially if you happen
to live in one of the undesirable zipcode areas (I guess based on
accident claim rates in those zipcodes).
Lauri
On
Mon, 7 Feb 2000, it was written:
> On 7 Feb 2000 00:11:17 GMT, Larisa Migachyov <l...@Stanford.EDU> wrote:
>
> >
> >OK. I am a college student, so my lifestyle is kinda different; but here
> >is a rough estimate:
> >
> > Car cost/ year: $2,000 (assuming I buy a $10000 car and it lasts 5 years)
> > Car insurance / year : $3,000 (this is what I actually paid)
> > Gas costs / year : $20/week * 50 weeks/year = $1000
> > Repair costs / year = $500 (minimum - I actually spent more than that)
> > Parking / year = $100
> >
> >Total = $6,600/year
> >
> >This $6,600 /year could be spent on a more expensive apartment closer to
> >work; it could allow you to get a job that pays that much less; it could
> >pay for bicycle/other transportation expenses. It's a lot of money.
> >Also, the sum does not include the speeding tickets that I ended up paying
> >for, on a regular basis.
>
> (YMCV) My costs are considerably, I mean really considerably, lower
> than these. For example my insurance was $400 per year. And the
> other costs follow suit except for gasoline which was only a little
> lower. I have had no, zilch, nada, zero speeding tickets.
> The points assigned due to speeding tickets can cause ones insurance
> to go up.
>
> Old_Timer
>
>
>
Larisa Migachyov
> (YMCV) My costs are considerably, I mean really considerably, lower
> than these. For example my insurance was $400 per year. And the
> other costs follow suit except for gasoline which was only a little
> lower. I have had no, zilch, nada, zero speeding tickets.
> The points assigned due to speeding tickets can cause ones insurance
> to go up.
Alas, I was a horrible driver, and I was very young, which are both
factors. The $3000/year was mostly due to the 5 accidents and innumerable
speeding tickets that I acquired. Fortunately, I had a huge battleship of
a car that saved my life more than once; but the insurance was awful.
Larisa Migachyov
> On 7 Feb 2000 21:27:38 GMT, Larisa Migachyov <l...@Stanford.EDU> wrote:
> ...
> >........ I was a horrible driver, and I was very young, which are both
> >factors.......... 5 accidents and innumerable
> >speeding tickets that I acquired. Fortunately, I had a huge battleship of
> >a car that saved my life more than once.....
> And, hopefully, heaven helped those who were your victims! Alabama
> is preparing legislation to limit teenage driving. They make up
> only 1 % of the drivers , but account for around 5% of all accidents.
> According to todays report, they will limit the time teenagers can
> drive with one of the goals to curtail cruising at midnight.
That is a good idea. As for my victims - fortunately, they were equally
unhurt. I was damn lucky I didn't kill anyone. The worst collision I
had, however, was with a freight truck, in broad daylight, when I was 21 -
fortunately, the only damage in the collision was to the car. (those
Chevy station wagons are *really* strong!)
Ms. Qué
>
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
Where I live, Victoria, BC or most of the island for that matter.
People bike/walk in numerous numbers here. It helps when you live in a
community where people regard the environment as a top priority.
~ Qué
--
~*~ "I forget what I was taught. I only remember what I have learnt." -
Patrick White ~*~
Visit my About Me page!
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John S. Watson
>Soul Surgeon wrote:
>> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
>> considered a freak?
>
>problems so far.
I'd say, *certain* places in the SF Bay Area ... Palo Alto,
Berkeley, S.F.
Where I'm at here in the Silicon Valley (south of Palo Alto),
IMHO, the public transportation isn't up to snuff.
Unless you live and work in just the right place.
And it is dangerous to ride your bicycle in a lot of places,
because of the number of unconscientious drivers.
I know there are a lot of people that say bicycling is a great
and healthy, but I don't think they factor in they possiblity of
getting killed. Cars whizzing by at 50 mph, only a few inches away,
scares the beejeebees out of me. Almost every bicycle enthusiast
I've ever met has at one point been munched by an automobile.
Some have lived, some haven't. Until recently, almost every time I
road my bike into work, I'd have a "near death experience" with a car
or a truck. Thankfully, the city has recently opened up a nice
bicycle path that I can take, with cuts out most of the freeway crossings.
I went to college at the UC, in Davis, California.
Davis IS one place a lot of people live without cars
(a lot more by their parent's choice than there own).
There are enough bicyclists there, that the out number the cars,
so the car drivers are (usually) much more aware of and respectful
of the bicyclists.
John Watson
wat...@george.arc.nasa.gov
http://george.arc.nasa.gov/~watson
HOMEBREW NAKED!
Cheri
a half block behind a grocery store, so, I can walk to and from.
Also, I'm disabled. I qualify for a door to door van service
that's run by the transit authority to be ADA compliant. It's much
cheaper than taking a taxi.
When I lived in Tallahassee, the closest I could get to a
grocery store was a mile, too far for me to walk. I took the bus to the
store and a taxi home. I tried to do all my grocery shopping once a
month so I didn't have to pay for too many taxi rides.
A lot of the people in my immediate area ride their bikes or
trikes around. There's plenty of shopping and banks and restruants in
the area.
I guess the key is to live on the bus route, if there is a bus
service, and living near as many of the places you need to go to as
possible.
Cheri
Glad to know you
Cathleen
>Look, if all else fails, move to Italy. Keep reading to see what I
>mean:
>
>
>
>
>
>150 Italian communities ban cars for a day
>
>
>By GUNTHER KERN
>
>http://www.nando.net/healthscience/story/0,1080,500164256-500207952-500954351-0,00.html
>
Yeah, but what about the vespas?! :) Walking through Florence is easy, if
you approach it like a pedestrian navigating the Grand Prix!
ObFrugal:
Set up a neighborhood seed ordering party. Invite your gardening neighbors
(or convert some!), serve coffee and refreshments, and peruse the stacks
of seed catalogues arriving at this time. Most neighborhood gardeners
aren't going to use the whole packet of 100 seeds, so you can order more
varieties with less waste. You also, in effect, turn your neighborhood
into a community garden :)
I've done this successfully with bulb catalogues for fall planting. We had
about 20 neighbors all plant daffodils, irises and tulips en masse
(cheaper in bulk, try www.vanengelen.com) and the street looks fantastic
in spring!
Cathleen
>Sorry, this query isn't completely on topic, but it something that's
>been puzzling me for a while.
>
>I know that in the US having a car seems to be almost "mandatory" and
>that people seem to expect to drive just about everywhere (I apologise
>if I'm stereotyping Americans here, but I can only go by what I have
>read). I was wondering if you have to pay to park your car in most
>places? In the UK I don't know of any major town or city where it is
>possible to park a car anywhere near any of the shops or city centre
>offices without having to pay (where I live the cost is just about to
>rise to £5.50 per day to park a car). We also pay the equivalent of
>approx. $4.00 per gallon of petrol.
>
>I'm wondering if this is the reason that it seems more "acceptable"
>and easier in Europe (from what I know of the UK and other European
>countries) to not own a car than it appears to be in the US.
>
>Julie
Well, I don't have to pay for parking in the Bay Area, unless I go to SF
and park in one of the garages or on the street.
But the real reason people need cars here is that California was developed
*around* the car, unlike a city like London or Paris, which pre-dates
cars. The older cities of Europe are, in general, very pedestrian friendly
(if you can dodge the vespas!) In my area of California, you can take your
life in your hands to cross a street, which might be 6-8 lanes!
Silicon Valley, until very recently, was orchards. I walked through them
to get to school. Those orchards have since been paved to make way for
sprawling high tech campuses, which each have their own free garages or
parking lots.
Public transportation is atrocious, for the most part. It takes me 15
minutes door to door to get to work. The bus? Easily an hour. Then, I have
no transportation to get to another building on campus, if I need to make
a meeting on time. Let's say there hasn't been a lot of planning in this
area, it's more like a patchwork quilt.
On a positive note, I live in a very old part of the valley (houses built
in the '20s is *old* here :) so I can walk to an old-fashioned town,
rather than a strip mall. There is a renaissance taking place along the
Peninsula bringing back these old towns, Willow Glen, Campbell, Los Gatos,
Burlingame, to their former glory. Thus, the real estate prices are sky
high. We, fortunately, bought at the right time :)
fastrada
>
> Does anybody know of anywhere where you can do this and not be
> considered a freak?
Sure. I live in Chicago and plenty of people who live here don't have
cars. If you live and work in the city, in general you can get by just
fine without one, as long as you don't ever venture out to the suburbs
where public transportation is not always adequate. If you live in the
suburbs, however, you pretty much need a car--suburbia is pretty spread
out around here--especially if you live in one suburb and work in
another. There's virtually no suburb-to-suburb public transportation
unless you want to take several buses or both towns are on the same
train line.
My husband and I do have a car, left over from when we lived in the
suburbs. We mainly use it when we go to see our families, who live way
out in the suburbs and not near a train. It's also handy for grocery
shopping in winter, because when it's below zero out, snowing hard, etc.
the last thing you want to do is walk to the supermarket. And there's
the safety issue as well--if I need to go to certain areas and will be
coming home late at night, I'd rather deal with driving than standing by
myself at a bus stop or train platform with all sorts of unsavory
characters running around.
Still, compared to my previous lifestyle, I barely ever get into the car
any more, and I can't say I miss it. Given the traffic and parking
situations around here, it's really decreased my stress level to not
have to drive.
Darlene
--
"i don't have to put up with this shabby crap--i'm a
journalist!" --transmetropolitan
fastrada
>
> On Sat, 05 Feb 2000 19:43:20 GMT, cmq...@primenet.com (Charles Quinn)
> wrote:
\
>
> you heard wrong, that has not been considered and would probably never
> happen. In one large city, chicago, they made their main shopping
> street car free and it was a disaster that was quickly ended.
Not that quickly, actually--as my husband and I recall, State Street
became car-free in the mid- to late 70s (ICBW, although I was born in
the early 70s and don't remember cars being allowed on it when I was a
kid). It was only opened to cars with the past, oh, 5-6 years.
And State Street isn't really the main shopping drag any more
anyway--that probably would be Michigan Avenue, which is always packed
with cars and not likely to be closed off anytime
soon.(unfortunately--people drive like maniacs on that street. But I
suppose that's true of most Chicago streets.)
fastrada
>
> JanetB <jaelbrN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>
> >In article <pf0n4.4643
> >$Mk2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> >jo...@earthlink.net (Joel M. Eichen) wrote:
>
> >>>I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
> >>>Illinois) who don't have cars.
> >>
> >>Really?
>
> >Yep. Of course it depends on age, income level, lifestyle,
> >etc. The car-less Chicagoans I know are either young, elderly,
> >or low-income. My grandparents lived in a building near the
> >Lake for over thirty years without a car, and were just fine.
> >When I visited we took the bus everywhere. I do the same now
> >when I go back there, and find that the bus and the el run
> >pretty frequently. And the subway is the best way out to O'Hare.
>
> Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
> cheaper!
Huh?? El or bus fare in Chicago is $1.50 each way, regardless of how far
you're going. Gasoline costs that or more *per gallon* here, and that's
for the cheap stuff. Not to mention the car insurance, although my
father-in-law is our insurance agent and was able to get us a good deal.
mrpotter
<fast...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Joel M. Eichen wrote:
> >
> > JanetB <jaelbrN...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >In article <pf0n4.4643
> > >$Mk2.1...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>,
> > >jo...@earthlink.net (Joel M. Eichen) wrote:
> >
> > >>>I also know plenty of people in Chicago (I'm originally from
> > >>>Illinois) who don't have cars.
> > >>
> > >>Really?
> >
> > >Yep. Of course it depends on age, income level, lifestyle,
> > >etc. The car-less Chicagoans I know are either young, elderly,
> > >or low-income.
I know a number of "decently - incomed" Chicagoans who don't have cars;
parking, traffic, wear - and - tear, etc. are horrendous here. I moved
here in 1978, and I have not driven a car since then. As a matter of
fact, I haven't even had a valid driver's license for 20 years -- I
simply let it lapse (I have a state ID card). I can get most
everywhere I need to go quite easily by public transport; in my
neighborhood, everything is "just around the corner"....
And internet shopping has made purchasing big ticket/bulky items
(furniture, electronics, etc.) very simple -- no asking around for
friends to schlep you around; the stuff is delivered to my door...
My grandparents lived in a building near the
> > >Lake for over thirty years without a car, and were just fine.
> > >When I visited we took the bus everywhere. I do the same now
> > >when I go back there, and find that the bus and the el run
> > >pretty frequently. And the subway is the best way out to
> O'Hare.
True -- it is fun to speed by all the stalled traffic on the Kennedy
Expressway. 'Though the EL is not as plush as the Washington DC Metro
to National Airport ;-/
> >
> > Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
> > cheaper!
> Huh?? El or bus fare in Chicago is $1.50 each way, regardless of
> how far
> you're going.
One can also get reduced price transit fare cards, etc. to shave a few
bucks here and there off commuting costs......
I'm lucky that in nice weather I can _walk_ to work (if I have the
time); it's over three miles, but I can walk through Lincoln Park along
Lake Michigan :-) I can get my exercise _and_ save $$$.....
Gasoline costs that or more *per gallon* here, and
> that's
> for the cheap stuff. Not to mention the car insurance, although my
> father-in-law is our insurance agent and was able to get us a good
> deal.
> Darlene
It's nice not to have to fret about car insurance, parking tickets, and
all the other associated costs of urban motoring.
Two friends of mine recently had minor (but expensive) accidents with
_uninsured_ drivers ('though Illinois state law _requires_ it); one of
these drivers did not even have a _license_ !! More $$$ out - of -
pocket......
In the area I live in Chicago (East Lakeview), monthly parking in an
enclosed garage can run well over $300.00/month (IF you can find it);
deeded parking spots in the new yuppie condo units mushrooming in my
area can easily cost more than $20,000.00......
Best
Greg
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mrpotter
In Chicago, some supermarkets will deliver to your home (for a charge),
whether you order on-line or not. AFAIK, the only on-line grocery
service here is Peapod; they use Jewel stores (which I don't patronise
-- my preferred store is Treasure Island)....
A Ferszt
>
> In article <389E2492...@home.com>, paulz28
> <paulz28...@home.com> wrote:
> > That's why I use http://www15.webvan.com/default.asp
> > They bring the supermarket to your door!
> > Noach wrote:
> > >
> > > But I thought w/ Priceline you still have to *go* to your local
> > grocery
> > > store.
>
> In Chicago, some supermarkets will deliver to your home (for a charge),
> whether you order on-line or not. AFAIK, the only on-line grocery
> service here is Peapod; they use Jewel stores (which I don't patronise
> -- my preferred store is Treasure Island)....
>
> Best
> Greg
All the large London supermarket chains have on-line
ordering and delivery, but when they started doing this a
couple of years ago they didn't deliver to certain post
codes (zip codes). I think they all deliver all over
now.There is a small charge, but that is independent of the
amount of the order.
Matt Conrad
<r...@NOSPAMpathfindermail.com> wrote:
>In New York City supermarkets deliver in the neighborhood for
>a small fee. In my area the fee is $2.
Is it customary to tip for grocery delivery? I would think so, but
I've heard that some companies don't allow their delivery people to
accept tips.
MWC
Matt Conrad
<lkle...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
>> Only problem is public transportation is expensive. A car is way
>> cheaper!
>
>That's absurd. Around here a bus pass costs 40 bucks a month. I defy
>anyone to run a car for that cost. My auto insurance alone costs that.
What about time? Where I live, public transportation runs too
infrequently to make it worthwhile. I can be downtown in 10-20 minutes
(it varies due to traffic) if I drive my car. Who knows how much time
I'd waste if I had to wait for a bus (both at my point of departure
and at the transfer point)?
I think I'm going to move downtown, so I can make my commute on foot.
MWC
Matt Conrad
<gregory...@webtv.net> wrote:
>I know a number of "decently - incomed" Chicagoans who don't have cars;
>parking, traffic, wear - and - tear, etc. are horrendous here. I moved
>here in 1978, and I have not driven a car since then. As a matter of
>fact, I haven't even had a valid driver's license for 20 years -- I
>simply let it lapse (I have a state ID card).
I personally would maintain a driver's license, even if I lived
downtown and didn't have a car. I might want to rent a car and travel
somewhere. Also, some places that require a driver's license for
identification won't take a state ID card.
>Two friends of mine recently had minor (but expensive) accidents with
>_uninsured_ drivers ('though Illinois state law _requires_ it)
Car insurance is mandatory in Indiana (unless you want to pay a
$40,000 deposit). However, the BMV makes no attempt to actually verify
the insurance when you register your car. You simply tell them the
company name and the policy number, and they leave it at that. I
suspect that many Hoosier motorists are driving without insurance.
>In the area I live in Chicago (East Lakeview), monthly parking in an
>enclosed garage can run well over $300.00/month (IF you can find it);
>deeded parking spots in the new yuppie condo units mushrooming in my
>area can easily cost more than $20,000.00......
Luckily (?), Indianapolis is such a driving city that parking is
abundant and relatively cheap. Even downtown, apartments usually come
with parking privileges. Public transportation here is a joke.
MWC
MsPhoto
In article <20000206151009...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
ru...@aol.com (Rune5) wrote:
> >
> >Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can
conveniently
> >live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery,
library,
> >medical, etc. would be major factors.
>
> Key West, but it's so expensive to live there that it probably
wouldn't be a
> long term situation. Housing for one thing is so expensive that cops,
firemen,
> etc are moonlighting just to keep up with the costs. I saw in the
paper (Miami
> Herald) last year that some employers have gone to the extent of
offering
> housing with the jobs...
>
--
Education is when you read the fine print.
Experience is what you get if you don't.
---Pete Seeger
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
MsPhoto
In article <389e22d9...@news.clara.net>,
j4j...@NOSPAMclara.co.uk wrote:
> Sorry, this query isn't completely on topic, but it something that's
> been puzzling me for a while.
>
> I know that in the US having a car seems to be almost "mandatory" and
> that people seem to expect to drive just about everywhere (I apologise
> if I'm stereotyping Americans here, but I can only go by what I have
> read). I was wondering if you have to pay to park your car in most
> places? In the UK I don't know of any major town or city where it is
> possible to park a car anywhere near any of the shops or city centre
> offices without having to pay (where I live the cost is just about to
> rise to £5.50 per day to park a car). We also pay the equivalent of
> approx. $4.00 per gallon of petrol.
>
> I'm wondering if this is the reason that it seems more "acceptable"
> and easier in Europe (from what I know of the UK and other European
> countries) to not own a car than it appears to be in the US.
>
> Julie
>
>
--
MsPhoto
these "high tech" cars, and the havoc they put on the environment and
you get too high a cost.
I often admired the thought of well placed and co-ordinated public
transit. One example here:
A temp job I had several years back worked with the county bus system
to provide a route to and from the jobsite from my town (a total of 21
miles one way). Their heart was in the right place; however, the bus
got to the company 13 minutes *after* the beginning of the shift, and
left on the last run 15 minutes *before* the end of shift. The company
of course wouldn't put up with the late and early starts. The transit
authority ceased the route because it was unprofitable.
The people who run the mass transit need to understand that very few
will leave 2 to 3 hours early to get to work late.
Deb
In article <Pine.A41.4.05.10002070938430.28632-
100...@srv1.calcna.ab.ca>,
"Lech K. Lesiak" <lkle...@calcna.ab.ca> wrote:
--
Lech K. Lesiak
> What about time? Where I live, public transportation runs too
> infrequently to make it worthwhile. I can be downtown in 10-20 minutes
> (it varies due to traffic) if I drive my car. Who knows how much time
> I'd waste if I had to wait for a bus (both at my point of departure
> and at the transfer point)?
YMMV. I can get downtown faster during rush hour using public transit
than driving if you measure door-to-door time. It's also considerably
cheaper. A bus pass is about 40 bucks a month, and parking runs about 70.
Most days when I was working I cycled - that took about the same as public
transit.
Cheers,
Lech
A Ferszt
offered to drive me to work (in London), the commute is
about 30 minutes longer than it takes me by Tube.
kch...@kchase.net wrote:
>
> I have been timing myself lately and in the mornings I can be to work
> in 6 minutes, but double that for comming home after work. So public
> transportation (even though there is a bus stop in front of my
> apartment) would be far too time consuming. (would have to transfer at
> least once)
Marie Braden
wrote:
>Where can I find a job that offers housing in KW?
>
>In article <20000206151009...@ng-fb1.aol.com>,
> ru...@aol.com (Rune5) wrote:
>> >
>> >Anyone know a place in Florida (or elsewhere) where one can
>conveniently
>> >live without a car? Convenient walking/biking distance to grocery,
>library,
>> >medical, etc. would be major factors.
>>
>> Key West, but it's so expensive to live there that it probably
>wouldn't be a
>> long term situation. Housing for one thing is so expensive that cops,
>firemen,
>> etc are moonlighting just to keep up with the costs. I saw in the
>paper (Miami
>> Herald) last year that some employers have gone to the extent of
>offering
>> housing with the jobs...
>>
Might I suggest that some of the smaller towns in Florida(if you can
find a suitable job) would also work well? I lived in Lake Wales, and
since I didn't even know how to drive, I was quite grateful for the
fact that the town was only 3 miles across...I could walk anywhere and
did!
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Marie Braden
<benenglis...@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
><<<While we are at it, since this is a 'frugal living' ng, I
>would appreciate hearing which residential areas of all three
>destinations: Miami area, San Diego, and Honolulu, are
>(relatively) affordable and safe. >>>
>
Miami Beach is ALSO a wonderful place to live if you choose a Car Free
Lifestyle. I did well there for a year. Again, everything is quite
close, except for the things that are within a bus or taxi ride (And
I'm talking like a $3 taxi ride, at that...LOL). The bus runs every
15 minutes and can take you into Miami "proper" if need be. People
tend not to realize that Miami Beach is NOT Miami---it's an island,
and absolutely night and day to the way most people perceive Miami!
I'd go back in a heartbeat if I HAD to live in the States (I'm in
Germany now)
Norman Richards
> OK. I am a college student, so my lifestyle is kinda different; but
> here is a rough estimate:
>
> Car cost/ year: $2,000 (assuming I buy a $10000 car and it lasts 5 years)
> Car insurance / year : $3,000 (this is what I actually paid)
> Gas costs / year : $20/week * 50 weeks/year = $1000
> Repair costs / year = $500 (minimum - I actually spent more than that)
> Parking / year = $100
>
> Total = $6,600/year
Don't forget the other misc car costs like parking fees, toll fees,
etc... (depends on where you live)
For me - it is also considerably cheaper to live without a car. The
best thing is that by not wasting money on a car (which would eat up
$400-$500 a month) I don't have to flee to the suburbs for cheap
housing to offset that high cost of car ownership.
___________________________________________________________________________
o...@cs.utexas.edu soli deo gloria
Beaver Fever
> Charles Quinn <cmq...@primenet.com> wrote in message
> news:87hunh$c9v$3...@nnrp03.primenet.com...
> > x-no-archive: yes
> > Routine trips
> > to work and to the market are inefficient via car. > Charles
> OK Charles, you try carrying 5 or 6 full bags of groceries on the bus and
> then tell me that a car is enifficent for going to the market. The ONE
> thing we want a car for is so that we can go to the grocery store and not
> have to worry about carrying a ton of groceries home. Of course we live in a
> pretty small town and the bus system is truly horrid here. One hour service
> on the weekdays, 2 hours service on Saturdays and NO service on Sundays. We
> can't wait to get a car!
> Mary
In the end this is the only downside about never driving and also being tethered to crowded and now expensive metro areas.
HarryStiles
When were metro areas cheap?