Leap year in Tamil calendar (which month is affected?)
Jean-Luc Chevillard
for the purpose of dating old books
which use the 60-year cycle,
I am trying to understand
how the leap year works in the Tamil Calendar.
In other words,
which of the 12 Tamil months
possesses the equivalent of 29th February
(in the Gregorian calendar)
I have found a page on the Tamil Wikipedia
which refers to leap year
as "நெட்டாண்டு"
"http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%A8%E0%AF%86%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A3%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%9F%E0%AF%81"
but that page does not seem to explain how the system works for the
Tamil calendar,
unless I have missed the relevant sentence.
Thanks for you help
-- ழான் (in Paris for some time)
கி.காளைராசன்
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Jean-Luc Chevillard
thanks for your answer
but I would like to find a detailed explanation
of when the changes take place.
Why are TWO MONTHS affected in the example you give?
Should I understand that there is a fixed correspondance between
some dates inside the months of the Gregorian calendar
(january, february, ...)
and the beginnings of the months of the Tamil calendar?
and that when there is a leap year in the Gregorian calender,
the duration of the Tamil months is adjusted in consequence?
Or is it done differently?
Is is possible for instance to say that
The 1st of january is always identical with மார்கழி-௴ 17௳
and that the change from Gregorian year N
to Gregorian year (N+1) always takes place on மார்கழி-௴ 17௳ in the Tamil calendar?
Thanks for your help
-- ழான் (Paris)
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Jean-Luc Chevillard
I should add that I have now found a webpage
giving the "real" lengths of the twelve months
measured in
நாள்
நாடி: (1/60) of நாள்
விநாடி: (1/60) of விநாடி
தற்பரை: (1/60) of தற்பரை
The total duration for the year is thus
365 நாள் + 15 நாடி + 31 விநாடி + 15 தற்பரை
"http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D_%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D#.E0.AE.AE.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.A4.E0.AE.99.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.A9.E0.AF.8D_.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.B2_.E0.AE.85.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.B5.E0.AF.81"
The chart also indicates the "வசதிக்காக" length of the 12 months.
8 months have fixed durations (for the sake of convenience)
and 4 months have a duration oscillating between 29 and 30 days
(those 4 months are ஐப்பசி, கார்த்திகை, தை and மாசி.)
If all these four months had their minimum duration simultaneously,
the year would last 363 days
If all these four months had their maximum duration simultaneously,
the year would last 367 days
WHO DECIDES when each of these months has a specific length
and for the sake of which convenience is this done?
How many configurations exist?
Since the sum of the fixed-length months is 247 days,
we must have a sum of 118 days for the remaining months if the year is ordinary
(which seems to give 6 possible combinations)
and 119 days when the year is a leap year
(which seems to give 4 possible combinations)
Are all those combinations attested?
Thanks for your answers
-- ழான் (Paris)
*********************************
Dear கி.காளைராசன,
thanks for your answer
but I would like to find a detailed explanation
of when the changes take place.
Why are TWO MONTHS affected in the example you give?
Should I understand that there is a fixed correspondance between
some dates inside the months of the Gregorian calendar
(january, february, ...)
and the beginnings of the months of the Tamil calendar?
and that when there is a leap year in the Gregorian calender,
the duration of the Tamil months is adjusted in consequence?
Or is it done differently?
Is is possible for instance to say that
The 1st of january is always identical with மார்கழி-௴ 17௳
and that the change from Gregorian year N
to Gregorian year (N+1) always takes place on மார்கழி-௴ 17௳ in the Tamil calendar?
Thanks for your help
-- ழான் (Paris)
கி.காளைராசன்
கி.காளைராசன்
வருடம் ஆனி ஆடி மார்கழி2007 32 32 292008 31 32 292009 32 31 29
2010 32 31 302011 31 32 //
Jean-Luc Chevillard
if I understand you,
the information given on Wikipedia
("http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D_%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D#.E0.AE.AE.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.A4.E0.AE.99.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.A9.E0.AF.8D_.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.B2_.E0.AE.85.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.B5.E0.AF.81")
is wrong
because that chart says that
ஆனி ஆடி மார்கழி have always the same duration.
Who is in charge of printing calendars in Tamil Nadu?
Is it a governmental organization?
Or is it some other instance?
Best wishes
-- ழான்
கி.காளைராசன்
if I understand you,
the information given on Wikipedia
("http://ta.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BF%E0%AE%B4%E0%AF%8D_%E0%AE%AE%E0%AE%BE%E0%AE%A4%E0%AE%99%E0%AF%8D%E0%AE%95%E0%AE%B3%E0%AF%8D#.E0.AE.AE.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.A4.E0.AE.99.E0.AF.8D.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.BF.E0.AE.A9.E0.AF.8D_.E0.AE.95.E0.AE.BE.E0.AE.B2_.E0.AE.85.E0.AE.B3.E0.AE.B5.E0.AF.81")
because that chart says that
ஆனி ஆடி மார்கழி have always the same duration.
Who is in charge of printing calendars in Tamil Nadu?
Is it a governmental organization?
Jean-Luc Chevillard
I have two last questions :-)
*(A)*
How many possible dates can correspond to the 1st january in the Tamil calendar?
(this is an important question from the point of view of dating Tamil Books
inside the Grogorian calendar)
Is 1st january always "மார்கழி-௴ 17௳"
or can it also be "மார்கழி-௴ 16௳"
or some other date?
*(B)*
Concerning the Wikipedia chart (about the lenghts of months)
what you are saying is that it is only the last column which is wrong
or that all the columns are wrong?
Thanks
-- ழான் (Paris)
Hari Krishnan
Is 1st january always "மார்கழி-௴ 17௳"
or can it also be "மார்கழி-௴ 16௳"
or some other date?
பொதுவாக மார்கழி 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். அரிதாக 16ல் தொடங்கும். 17ல் தொடங்கியதாக எனக்கு நினைவில்லை. (என் தந்தை காலமானது ஒரு போகிப் பண்டிகை இரவில். ஜனவரி 14, 1994. And therefore, I have a reason to observe these dates)
அன்புடன்,
ஹரிகி.
LK
பொதுவாக மார்கழி 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும்.//
???
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Thanks and Regards
Karthik L
http://www.atheetham.com
http://lksthoughts.blogspot.com
Jean-Luc Chevillard
Did you mean to say
"பொதுவாக மார்கழி 1, December 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். "
OR
"பொதுவாக தை 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். " ?
அன்புடன்
-- ழான் (Paris)
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 7:33 am, LK <karthik...@gmail.com> wrote:
> //
> பொதுவாக மார்கழி 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும்.//
> ???
>
தை மாதம் ஜனவரியில் தொடங்கும்.
நா. கணேசன்
> 2011/9/20 Hari Krishnan <hari.harikrish...@gmail.com>
>
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> > 2011/9/20 Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
Raja sankar
ஒரு/இரண்டு நாள் முன் பின் வரும்.
புரட்டாசி ஒன்று செப் 17,18 சில சமயம் 19.
நண்பர் வினோத் கேட்டார், இது திதி மற்றும் நட்சத்திரம் சேர்த்தியா இல்லையா என கேட்டார். இல்லை சூரிய காலக்கணக்கின் படி என்றேன்.
சூரிய- சந்திர காலண்டர் என்றால் இன்னும் குழப்பும்.
கோயில்களில் தேதி குறிப்பிடாமல் பிரதம வருடம் ஆனி கேட்டை என்றோ விரோதி ஆவணி மகம் என்றோ எழுதி வைத்திருப்பார்கள். அந்த மாதம் அந்த நட்சத்திரம் என பார்த்து தெரிந்து கொள்வதாக இருக்கும். சில புத்தகங்களிலும் அப்படியே இருப்பதை பார்த்திருக்கிறேன்.
ராஜசங்கர்
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 7:34 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> "பொதுவாக தை 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். " ?
>
தை 1 பொதுவாக ஜனவரி 13 அல்லது 14-ல் தொடங்கும்.
நா. கணேசன்
Jean-Luc Chevillard
<QUOTE RECTIFIED>
பொதுவாக தை 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். அரிதாக 16ல் தொடங்கும். 17ல்
தொடங்கியதாக எனக்கு நினைவில்லை.
</QUOTE RECTIFIED>
one can conclude that
the last day of மார்கழி
falls most generally
on 13th or 14th of january
(and sometimes on 15th of january).
If மார்கழி has 29 days,
the FIRST of january will be
either on 17th of மார்கழி
or on 16th of மார்கழி
or on 15th of மார்கழி
If மார்கழி has 30 days,
the FIRST of january will be
either on 18th of மார்கழி
or on 17th of மார்கழி
or on 16th of மார்கழி
Is this a valid conclusion?
Thanks to all the contributors
ழான் (Paris)
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 6:18 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> if I understand you,
> the information given on Wikipedia
>
> because that chart says that
> ஆனி ஆடி மார்கழி have always the same duration.
>
> Who is in charge of printing calendars in Tamil Nadu?
>
> Is it a governmental organization?
>
A person belonging to Srivaishnava community joined Madras observatory
as a coolie, and subsequently became one of the best astronomers
India ever produced. Being from a family of traditional panchangam
makers,
he learnt modern astronomy and observations of the sky with
keen inerest, and wrote books in Tamil etc., & argued that
panchanga computations be brought in line with Astronomical
observations,
not just on computations of the old Surya Siddhanta, so that
Panchangams are in line with observed facts such as full or new moon
dates.
This Indian scientist's efforts led to the first major calender reform
of
Tamil panchangams, & I'd think it is his effort that included the leap
year effect
into Tamil panchangm computations. But the solstices and equinoxes
are not corrected and remain unscientific to this day, hence the
monthly
begin dates. deally, Thai 1 (= Pongal) should coincide with the Winter
solstice in late December of every year, and so all the Tamil months
should begin almost 3 weeks prior.
L. D. Swamikannu Pillai's Indian ephemeris, 1800 - 2000 AD set the
Tamil panchanga more clearly. And, this seminal work
must have been taken into account in the Lahiri committee
of the Govt. of India (1957) which extended the Indian Ephemeris for
the
21st century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._D._Swamikannu_Pillai
http://books.google.com/books/about/L_D_Swamikannu_Pillai.html?id=gjoEAAAAMAAJ
(Prof. K. Arunachala Kavunder wrote LDS' biography in Tamil.
In Centamiz journal Swamikannu Pillai took part in determining
the exact year mentioned in Paripatal 11, F. Gros book should contain
the summary of these discussions, if you can tell in English,
we will be thankful.)
N. Ganesan
> Or is it some other instance?
>
> Best wishes
>
> -- ழான்
>
> On 20/09/2011 13:08, கி.காளைராசன் wrote:
>
>
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> > ஒரு சிறுதிருத்தம்.
>
> > வருடம் ஆனி ஆடி மார்கழி
> > 2007 32 32 29
> > 2008 31 32 29
> > 2009 32 31 29
> > 2010 32 31 30
> > 2011 31 32 //
>
> > நன்றி,
> > அன்பன்
> > கி.காளைராசன்
>
> > --
> > "Tamil in Digital Media" group is an activity of Tamil Heritage
> > Foundation. Visit our website:http://www.tamilheritage.org;you may
> > like to visit our Muthusom Blogs at:
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 7:57 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> This means that from Hariki's corrected statement
>
> <QUOTE RECTIFIED>
> பொதுவாக தை 1, ஜனவரி 14 அல்லது 15ல் தொடங்கும். அரிதாக 16ல் தொடங்கும். 17ல்
> தொடங்கியதாக எனக்கு நினைவில்லை.
> </QUOTE RECTIFIED>
>
> one can conclude that
> the last day of மார்கழி
> falls most generally
> on 13th or 14th of january
> (and sometimes on 15th of january).
>
> If மார்கழி has 29 days,
> the FIRST of january will be
> either on 17th of மார்கழி
> or on 16th of மார்கழி
> or on 15th of மார்கழி
>
> If மார்கழி has 30 days,
> the FIRST of january will be
> either on 18th of மார்கழி
> or on 17th of மார்கழி
> or on 16th of மார்கழி
>
May be valid for a century or so.
But due to precession of the equinoxes, this will gradually shift
to the right over time.
N. Ganesan
Jean-Luc Chevillard
you write
<QUOTE>
May be valid for a century or so.
</QUOTE>
I am not worried about the future ;-)
I am only concerned with the dating of old books
for which the month inside the printing date is மார்கழி !!!
For instance
I have recently examined
*(A)*
Tēvāram, stalamuṟai, ed. Irāmaliṅkacuvāmi, Ceṉṉapaṭṭaṇam, viṣu v.,
mārkaḻi m.
is this 1881 or 1882?
*(B)*
Naṉ. virutti, Irāmānuccakavirāyar, Cañcīvirāyaṉpēṭṭai, Pilavaṅka v.,
mārkaḻi m.
is this 1847 or 1848?
*(C)*
Pirayōka Vivēkam, Āṟumukanāvalar, Ceṉṉapaṭṭaṇam, Irattākṣi v., mārkaḻi
m. (mūṉṟām patippu),
is this 1924 or 1925?
Cheers
-- jlc
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 8:26 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Dear NG,
>
> you write
> <QUOTE>
>
> May be valid for a century or so.
>
> </QUOTE>
>
> I am not worried about the future ;-)
>
> I am only concerned with the dating of old books
> for which the month inside the printing date is மார்கழி !!!
>
> For instance
> I have recently examined
>
> *(A)*
> Tēvāram, stalamuṟai, ed. Irāmaliṅkacuvāmi, Ceṉṉapaṭṭaṇam, viṣu v.,
> mārkaḻi m.
> is this 1881 or 1882?
>
> *(B)*
> Naṉ. virutti, Irāmānuccakavirāyar, Cañcīvirāyaṉpēṭṭai, Pilavaṅka v.,
> mārkaḻi m.
> is this 1847 or 1848?
>
> *(C)*
> Pirayōka Vivēkam, Āṟumukanāvalar, Ceṉṉapaṭṭaṇam, Irattākṣi v., mārkaḻi
> m. (mūṉṟām patippu),
> is this 1924 or 1925?
>
Then use L. D. Swamikkannu Pillai's book, Indian ephemeris, 1800-2000
AD.
That should help you to exactly determine the Christian years with
Tamil panchangam
dates in 19th century print books,
anbudan
NG
N. Ganesan
Here is a reprint that will be useful for your purposes:
Indian chronology (solar, lunar, and planetary) : a practical guide to
the interpretation and verification of tithis, nakshatras, horoscopes,
and other Indian time-records, B.C. 1 to A.D. 2000
Author: L D Swamikannu Pillai
Publisher: New Delhi : Asian Educational Services, 1982.
NG
Jean-Luc Chevillard
thanks for the info.
Usually there is not much to do,
if the only information is the title page,
giving only the YEAR and the MONTH
If we have
விஷு௵ மார்கழி ௴
the real question is
Is it 1881-1882 or 1821-1822?
If we have
பிலவங்க௵ மார்கழி ௴
the real question is
Is it 1907-1908 or 1847-1848?
If we have
இரக்தாட்சி௵ மார்கழி ௴
the real question is
Is it 1924-1925 or 1864-1865?
But sometimes,
we have a preface with a more precise date,
giving the YEAR, the MONTH and the DAY.
I was shown this morning scanned images from a book
in which there was such a date, in a preface:
"விபவ-௵ ஆடி-௴ 1௳"
Of course, it was not மார்கழி
so that the problem did not arise
but if it had been
"ஸ்ரீமுக-௵ மார்கழி-௴ 16௳"
"ஸ்ரீமுக-௵ மார்கழி-௴ ௰௬௳"
we might have made good use of L D Swamikannu Pillai's book
Best wishes
-- jlc
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 9:19 am, Jean-Luc Chevillard <jeanluc.chevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> If we have
> விஷு௵ மார்கழி ௴
> the real question is
> Is it 1881-1882 or 1821-1822?
>
> If we have
> பிலவங்க௵ மார்கழி ௴
> the real question is
> Is it 1907-1908 or 1847-1848?
>
> If we have
> இரக்தாட்சி௵ மார்கழி ௴
> the real question is
> Is it 1924-1925 or 1864-1865?
>
font styles, contents (eg., quality, writing style, ...) ...
will differentiate whether 19th century or 20th century work.
NG
Vinodh Rajan
Dhivakar
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Vinodh Rajan
Vinodh Rajan
N. Ganesan
On Sep 20, 12:18 pm, Vinodh Rajan <vinodh.vin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I am splitting the thread from the original topic.
>
> (Hope JLC won't mind :-) )
>
> ~~~~
>
> Dhivakar,
>
> That's really interesting !!
>
> That would probably mean, all the 12 months equally had 30 days.
>
> ~
>
> So, what are the various ways in which dates are mentioned in (Tamil)
> inscriptions ?
>
was the late N. Sethuraman, Raman & Raman Bus company, Kumbakonam.
Here is a paper by him, & see how accurately he can tell
the dates in Christian era for medieval Tamil inscriptions.
http://nganesan.blogspot.com/2011/09/naalvar-kaalam.html
NG
கி.காளைராசன்
http://www.probharat.com/indian-calendars/tamil-calendar.php?month=9&year=1993&lang=ta
