Good and bad

[andrew vecsey]

Why do so many of us remember negative feelings easier than positive ones. Pain over pleasure. Bad news over good news. Why does "bad" overshadow "good", immorality over morality, despair over hope, pessimism over optimism. Why does hate appear to be more powerful than love? Why is greed louder than generosity. Why is destruction of war so much faster than the building power of peace. Why can one little lie destroy a lifetime of trust. Why are lies more influential than truth. It all seems so one sided. Why is that?

[rigs]

Try being Pollyanna for a day and see how far you get. Or Dr. Pangloss
("Candide")

[archytas]

Good question Andrew - though we could wonder why most people have
rosy views of the US and British empires, pretty much against the real
history.

[rigs]

At least some had good intentions re empires- maybe that should be
noted. And I believe in good intentions, myself- don't you? It's
likely a project for those two columns of thinking and sorting.

> > > Why is that?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[archytas]

I think the first consideration is hospitality rigs.

[rigs]

Please define what you mean by "hospitality"- of the individual, the
group, nations. Thanks. :-)

On Jan 29, 5:22 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think the first consideration is hospitality rigs.
>
> On Jan 29, 12:10 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > At least some had good intentions re empires- maybe that should be
> > noted. And I believe in good intentions, myself- don't you? It's

> > likely a project for those two columCouldns of thinking and sorting.

>
> > On Jan 28, 6:41 am, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Good question Andrew - though we could wonder why most people have
> > > rosy views of the US and British empires, pretty much against the real
> > > history.
>
> > > On Jan 28, 11:19 am, rigs <rigs...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Try being Pollyanna for a day and see how far you get. Or Dr. Pangloss
> > > > ("Candide")
>
> > > > On Jan 28, 5:11 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Why do so many of us remember negative feelings easier than positive ones.
> > > > > Pain over pleasure. Bad news over good news. Why does "bad" overshadow
> > > > > "good", immorality over morality, despair over hope, pessimism over
> > > > > optimism. Why does hate appear to be more powerful than love? Why is greed
> > > > > louder than generosity. Why is destruction of war so much faster than the
> > > > > building power of peace. Why can one little lie destroy a lifetime of
> > > > > trust. Why are lies more influential than truth. It all seems so one sided.
> > > > > Why is that?- Hide quoted text -
>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[archytas]

I'm not sure the audience is as wide as your estimate rigs.
Technically I am hospitable to any theoretical view from marxism to
fascism - though I tend to dislike theoretical views - and hospitable
to Islamic theory/s in business analysis - and to guests in my
classrooms from all backgrounds. This is easy enough - as easy as
offering to put you up if you were travelling in the UK. The
difficult bit is in reciprocity - here we might think of the Maussian
concept of the gift and many examples in 'stoneage economics' - what
is expect of a guest in return. One gives freely - a few nights stay
is not given for a return of a few nights stay and so on - yet one
does not generally keep giving to inhospitable guests. One can
discuss racism yet not tolerate racists - but to brand people
concerned their opportunities for homes and work are disappearing in
immigration flows as racist who raise these issues with some hatred on
the people taking them is also wrong (particularly if done by
politically correct idiots whose homes and jobs are not under such
threat). Hospitality is sometimes easy, sometimes very hard work, can
be a treat or pain - but is always already reciprocal in intent even
if no commodity exchange is meant. I prefer to be hospitable to you
rigs than tolerant - tolerance has pratronising aspects - and this is
my general approach to things intellectual. It's easy with you as I
like what I hear. I have lost hospitality to politics. Left to typo
as it hits the meaning better than the word I intended!

People hurt us Andrew. We hurt them. Some is intentional some not.
Gossip is often vicious from the pub to academic cloister.
Transactional analysis isn't a bad place to look at how rigs'
"balanced score card" builds up in personal relationships - Eric
Berne's 'Games People Play' is still. the best book. Only friends can
generally hurt us as we come to expect better from them, value them
and so on. Friendship is easily mimicked and sometimes that small
thing you mention may reveal the charade. Sometimes we take things
too hard and should just let an incident wash away. This can be
particularly hard if you've been collecting brown stamps (been shit
on) in too many recent encounters. I used to go to the pub every
Friday to get rid of my collection - but this habit itself became a
brown stamp. I'm not religious but there's lots in forgiveness and
'there but for the grace of god go I'.

[rigs]

I am a fan of capitalism. I consider Marxism and Fascism as an
extension of socialism which is an extension of divine rights,etc.,
i.e. theft, redistribution of another's wealth and labor, weakening of
the body politic (a form of serfdom) which turns governments into
bloodsuckers via taxes and debt.//Do you think economics is a valid
science? Why, when it has flopped so many times.//We need production
and labor plus consumption so there is a need for immigrants into
white industrial countries to make up for the decline of white births
(55 million abortions plus birth control). But I wonder if illegals
will pay back taxes and bother to learn English. It might go smoother
if we learn Spanish and Europe learn Arabic.//Family can also hurt
people but sometimes that hurt teaches valuable lessons. It is easier
to leave some people and events to Heaven though it would probably
spell the end of the legal profession.

[gabbydott]

The way you contrast socialism and capitalism is like contrasting creationism versus evolutionism. And by the natural law that the fittest will survive you are right to have decided for the evolutionary view.

I don't think - and the exchange in this group has helped me a lot to see this clearer - we should forget how tempting the search for the right answers is.

2013/1/31 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

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[archytas]

I like the divine right analogy rigs. I don't favour capitalism for
much the same reason. Much discussion of right and wrong is stuck in
a past we need to escape. Origin is difficult. Born a Scot I might
revere our heritage - but 3000 years ago 'we' were likely German
farmers eating 'grass porridge'. Capitalism broke up much of
feudalism, but I suspect it was no more than a revision of Domesday
Book accounting and labour exploitation. Much of what actually goes
on is not capitalism but the establishment of rents through financial
manipulations - essentially a control fraud by the rentier-class.
We've been had on a butty - and need more modern argument based on
what we know, facts shared in a common language.
There is a literature suggesting our environmental knowledge is now
important in moral decision-making I think we have missed a lot
before this. Current technology is good enough for us to create self-
sustaining communities and give up on empire. We need to re-evaluate
our morality against this. I don't see this leading to socialism and
any aim seems to me to be about considerably more freedom - from such
things as war, work ethics formed in times of shortage and need for
hard labour and so on. The Soviet empire was much like the Tsars it
replaced - we used to call the KGB 'Checkists' after the Tsar's secret
police.
I suspect capitalism - unless used as a pejorative - is little more
than an accounting system. The problem lies in its corruption.
People cheat and cheats like crimogenic systems that allow work in the
dark. The umpire in cricket is now redundant - machines are better.
We could have had a machine accounting system on a global basis by now
- instead machines play a bigger role in cheating. Capitalism with
fair accounting presents few problems except for losers in the
competition. In sport we have competitions that allow losers first
draft picks and our course there is no competition if one eradicates
the competition. Wigan's dominance of the Rugby League was truly
horrible - it was hard t turn up to watch knowing every other team
would lose.
The pathway to Hell is lined with good intentions Gabby - we are
scared of change. Does anyone now believe that rule by the Guardians
of future socialist paradise can be established to wither away? Or
that the rentiers will wither away as Keynes hoped? And are such
matters not the same coin, merely opposite sides? Capitalism has run
up a lot of debt - are we so sure of it we can do away with time-
honoured debt jubilee? Would it not make more sense to give away what
we have built already to the people, have something of a leveling and
start again with a new focus on sustainability?
The genuine capitalist firm treats finance as a cost - it is difficult
to see from this how the vast transactions of financial services are
not parasitic on such firms and all of us. The bubbles created cause
much misery and form part of a vast Ponzi scheme we have no need of.
Beyond this, capitalism is really assumed to be a dirty game of beggar
thy neighbour we are ahead in and need to stay ahead in or we'll lose
military edge (and so on). We end up justifying doing bad things for
the greater end and rationalising this as moral.

On Jan 31, 9:14 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The way you contrast socialism and capitalism is like contrasting
> creationism versus evolutionism. And by the natural law that the fittest
> will survive you are right to have decided for the evolutionary view.
>
> I don't think - and the exchange in this group has helped me a lot to see
> this clearer - we should forget how tempting the search for the right
> answers is.
>

> 2013/1/31 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

divine right = selfishness and greed often a justification for
stealing and enslaving..

Economy is for taking care of all the people not just the select few..

and the Scottish are a distant branch of German as are the English and Irish..

Every one finds the truth eventually most later than sooner.

--
(
)
|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

[archytas]

People like simplistic morality. In the real world it's different -
see the discussion here http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dirty-hands/
on dirty hands. I abhor violence and torture - but friends could rely
on me to use both in certain circumstances. Usual discussion here is
stuff like the Allies bombing German civilians was justified at the
beginning of the war (because the Nazis winning was unthinkable) but
not the later bombing at the end of the war when Germany and Japan
were all but defeated (the excuse then being merely saving our
soldiers' lives rather than all civilisation).
There are, in fact, multiple issues, at apparently inconsequential
levels. As fullback at 5ft 9 and 12 stone 8 you face a rampaging 17
stoner 6 ft 4 high as the last line of defence. If you take him high
he will run over you and score - if you take him low you will bring
him down but his momentum will take him to the line and score. An
alternative is to take his head. This will incur and penalty (two
points) and your sending off. There are two minutes left and you are
winning 10 points to 7. Winning pay is £300 and losing pay £35. What
do you do? What might be going through your mind?

Most fullbacks in this position go for the head. The cheating and
risk to the big guy are justified by such as:
1/. You won't play nest week if you don't stop him
2/. You won't be popular with your mates
3/. They would do the same to you and so on.

I never did this. Dad would be in the crowd and his disapproval
outweighed all other considerations. Morality is difficult and we lie
to ourselves about it. We often won't even admit to the bad as in
believing our foreign policies are ethical against all evidence.

[James]

The good with the bad can be a hard one, most here have likely heard the
theory: evolutionary fitness of pattern recognition that results in
anxiety and seeing phantoms in the darkness as a preemptive adaptation.
One I've been toying with is that the distribution of prestige in an
egalitarian tribal setting may have been regulated by these fixations,
an irrelevant leader is finished, a discredited and dishonored leader
will lose influence and alliances. It is a work in progress.

The first is something I feel a bond in with our canine companion when
just watching the woods, he is usually doing the same thing I am (even
if I usually hear things first), he has a hell of a nose- neither of us
can turn it off, straining at the boundaries of the senses. It is fun,
validating and honest. A positive side. I've been attacked by dogs
several times when younger. Once in highschool I helped someone moving
and sat in the back with their ketamine drugged large lab, long story
short I had to stick my hand in his mouth and hold on to hold him off my
neck. Set it myself, wrapped up and it swelled up like a pro baseball
for a week. We adopted a beaten dog around that time that would
completely flip if you moved wrong (almost any move really) so we became
friends by sparring, him gnashing teeth and spit like a total spaz I
knew he was nuts but never hit or kicked him if he snagged me good.
Eventually he showed care and remorse if I got hurt, we would stop and
talk and even have mild contact like a stroke or two but keeping space
or he'd have my face. I look to things sometimes, and find compassion is
powerful, you can trick the brain into allowing a little to shine back
in too. How many people watch the water running down a drain and hope
they don't badly need that little bit someday? Someone reading this mail
is not likely to. Apprehension is enough to drive one to religion! I'm
not into Pascal's wager, but I've got a healthy respect for the fates.
Enough to be grateful I'm not like that dog, and even some people. I'm
just a bit like my dog, which is good, even if he listens about as well
as my two boys. *chuckles

Bittersweet?

My writing is getting worse, I think, meh..

> --
>
>
>

[James]

Wow, that example about sums up the stories I hear about big companies
and lawsuits. They gain more by not dealing honestly if they can
dominate the markets, and have deep pockets to drive the squeaky wheels
into bankruptcy. If they get caught I get the feeling many are probably
extorted into civic duty by doing little humanitarian stuff that makes
the public feel all warm and fuzzy. Truth is the judge probably gave
them a deal, the people going bankrupt got a fraction of lost value and
damages and can't speak out due to a SLAPP suit. What a rosy picture, it
could be an industry standard! ;-)

[archytas]

One organization seems to rear its ugly head at the forefront of the
most sweeping mass propaganda operations of our time, and has been
linked to the creation of the most atrocious military methodologies,
including the use of false flag events - the Rand Corporation, a
California based “think tank” whose influence reaches into nearly
every sphere of our society, from politics, to war, to
entertainment. The goal of the group from its very inception was to
promote a social atmosphere of moral ambiguity in the name of personal
and national priority.  They did this first through the creation of
“Rational Choice Theory”; a theory which prescribes that when making
any choice, an individual (or government) must act as if balancing
costs against benefits to arrive at an action that maximizes personal
advantage.  Basically, the ends justify the means, and moral
conscience is not a factor to be taken seriously if one wishes to be
successful. I assume rigs doesn't mean this when she mentions pros and
cons.

Rational choice theory has been attacked in the past by pro-socialist
(collectivist) critics as “extreme individualism”; a philosophy which
gives us license to be as “self serving” as possible while feeling
patriotic at the same time.  This is thought by some psychologists to
be typical of a lot of moral reasoning.

Selfishness is very difficult to pin down and can be thought as
central to socialism.  At the onset of any communist or national
socialist society the masses are first convinced to hand over ultimate
power to the establishment in order to safeguard themselves. The
common collectivist person chooses to hand over his or her freedoms
and participate in totalitarianism because he or she wants what is
best for the world and because he or she wants what is best for him/
herself with as little private sacrifice as possible. I don't hold
with this, but on can see how a concept like selfishness can pretty
much overtake itself in argument. In biology, altruism becomes a self-
interest of the wider gene pool and so on.

My own feelings about this kind of stuff lead me to believe we are
usually stuck with fixed choice situations (a bit like my tackle
situation - but think any episode of 24, many in NCIS and even in the
derisory Castle - where 'greater good' allows killings, torture and so
on). Even in Castle, essentially some drawn out wuckfittery about a
couple who should really just get on playing happy families, has WW3
about to come about through the murder of the daughter of a Chinese
guy who will bring down the USD in revenge! The problem of
dictatorship is the problem of dictatorship not selfishness. To offer
us either a dictatorship of the people or the rich is to offer no
choice at all. We want another political institution.

James has more or less summarised Bill Black's 'The Best Way To Rob A
Bank Is To Own One' in which bankruptcy is now a way to hollow out and
loot the organisation one runs.
I wonder what we are afraid of in a modern world in which all could
live free of most material want. Do we think work motivation would
collapse and we'd all starve, doing nothing? Do we think it would be
impossible to organise work at all? Would it lead to massive over-
breeding - a problem 'aid' has brought about anyway?

I worked with some people who had no time to be concerned with the
daily evil their jobs entailed and purposely kept themselves from any
real knowledge about poverty other than as to be personally avoided.
They sucked up to the nearest boss or money all week and spent
weekends drunk or high. Some of them were bright and witty, others so
dull I'm not sure the could mist a mirror. Academics were very
similar - just a niche version of the total grey immorality of
rational choice. At least some of the people I worked with in
management buyouts admitted their greed. I lingered a bit with the
anarcho-existentialists before self-ridicule moved me on! I have
shaved in the mirror of madness, wondering if so many can be so wrong.

On Feb 1, 6:34 am, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wow, that example about sums up the stories I hear about big companies
> and lawsuits. They gain more by not dealing honestly if they can
> dominate the markets, and have deep pockets to drive the squeaky wheels
> into bankruptcy. If they get caught I get the feeling many are probably
> extorted into civic duty by doing little humanitarian stuff that makes
> the public feel all warm and fuzzy. Truth is the judge probably gave
> them a deal, the people going bankrupt got a fraction of lost value and
> damages and can't speak out due to a SLAPP suit. What a rosy picture, it
> could be an industry standard! ;-)
>
> On 1/31/2013 11:13 AM, archytas wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > People like simplistic morality.  In the real world it's different -

> > see the discussion herehttp://plato.stanford.edu/entries/dirty-hands/

> ...
>
> read more »

[rigs]

The rentier class has taken the risk and made the investment- if we
agree on the definition of the term.//The Liberals have been very
successful in creating an altruistic image and aligned themselves with
the media, pop culture and Wall Street- it's about garnering a large
voter base which elects them and allows a position of power and
control. Even the Royals need pr.//My pro/con lists are a way to
compare possibility and reality and not moral escape hatches.

> > > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[rigs]

As if socialism is not also an accounting system!!! It is possible for
capitalism to be compassionate and altruistic versus enforcement with
hidden motives.//We have not escaped the past either. You may still be
eating grass porridge as oatmeal. :-)

> > > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

Neither is capitalism an accounting system... Accounting is
accounting and simply tells you where your money is going and where
it is.. it is not an economic system accounting will work with
any "ism"

Sorry about the delay answering Neil.. Over simplification of
spiritual concept is a blessing not a curse.. It is meant and stated
so that even a child can understand what is said and abide by the
spiritual idea. As I see it stating simple ideas into complex
statements is not much more than an excuse to use when trying follow a
spiritual path..
If a child can understand a spiritual path, then hopefully you too
can understand the path to follow.

[archytas]

I tend to 'count the legs of nags' I back rigs (from time to time - I
don't gamble much). It's hard to tell the difference between a risk
taker and a moron. All gamblers lose unless they have an edge. One-
armed bandits are properly named. Given they are allowed to take 25%
it's very easy to work out how to run them at no risk at all. I don't
play cards for money with friends (because I win). Gamblers with edge
either have the rules stacked in their favour or inside information.
In most sports the idea is not to play the high risk game and get the
other team to take them. I'd love to know what you think risk is.

The rentier-class is totally risk averse and practices usury - they
seek he bookmakers' position (there are some risks in some such
positions), preferably extracting fees rather than being at risk
should certain results flow. We continue to bail them out - so what
was at risk? As we bail them out, they get richer but don't offer
these riches up as at risk to pay us back.One does find more Americans
have swallowed the risk-thrusting-capitalist myth than across Europe -
but our oligarchies continue along very similar lines. I don't
remember being asked to allow bankers money creation or use asset
inflation to back Ponzi schemes. I think you have this one upside
down. They've turned what should be an investment system into a
gambling club that pays out stipends and privileges as surely as to
any nomenclature.

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

The kind of 'risk taking' we need is on building factories that will
provide good jobs doing stuff, say, like metal extraction from printed
circuit boards, developing petrol from air machines, new building
materials, greening communities - backing on the basis of belief
enough of our efforts will succeed and allow for some failures.
Soviet Paradise failed on such promises, so we need something else -
but we already have a bunch of rentiers bleeding our factories and
even hoarding food and commodities to increase the price in amounts as
serious as Mao's pillaging to build a navy from grain exports in his
mad fantasy of the Great Leap Forward.

I take delivery of a German car on Tuesday morning. It would be
interesting to know how much war criminal investment is involved in
that, how much North Sea Oil revenue was wasted in the City instead of
developing Rovoer and so on. But even if the UK was again the
workshop of the world, in doing so who would we be selling to in the
rest of the world beggared by our industrial success? - a situation
Germany is in to some extent.

If accounting told us about money Allan we'd have fewer problems. It
is not a neutral product. I even suspect if it was neutral capitalist-
socialist argument would be irrelevant because we'd have an accurate
account of what is going on.

On 1 Feb, 15:18, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Neither is capitalism an accounting system...     Accounting is
> accounting  and  simply tells you where your money is going and where

> it is..   it is not an economic system    accounting will work wither

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

Well accounting is still a neutral product .. but people exploit it
to get it to say what they want it to say.. if you get a hold of the
books plus the hidden books you still can actually find out what is
going on by questioning where the money is going.. Hiding money is
not good accounting and is out right illegal.. or immoral.. it will
show the hoarding or misuse of commodities. Accounting can show the
viability of projects.. Great way to catch bad guys.. the
enforcement of laws, which are a form of morality.
Obama is nothing more than a moderate republican 3 decades back,,
the republicans of to day are so extremist they would not have been
tolerated.

I think a new liberal party (ies) will begin to emerge,, as the
extremist are taking their toll

It is good to see you supporting Europe.

[Allan H]

I was thinking while playing mahjong (this particular game you lose
far more often than you win) thinking about accounting..
the second you spin accounting you are defining your morality using it
yoor justify your actions.. accounting is extremely neutral with the
scales coming out in balance.. whether economic or spiritual
actually both because they are interlocked with each other.

[gabbydott]

Good morning Allan, I am glad you said accounting was a product and that you didn't say it was neutral tool. It is a man-made product to make exchanges or transformational actions look like it was a zero sum game we are all playing with the totAl yet to be achieved. Would this be an easy-to-understand summary of your view?

2013/2/2 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[rigs]

My dictionary (Random House Collegiate) defines rentiers as those
living on a fixed income, as from land or bonds. (French) Of course
nothing is "fixed" anymore since there are many ways to impact any
security one holds.//There many ways we gamble whether we define it
that way or not. Frankly, it is a risk to be born when you come right
down to it but what's the alternative? I don't gamble but did give a
gambling dinner party for four couples many years ago that was a lot
of fun- included liar's dice, roulette and ended with a live turtle
race.//I think you are talking about all the middle men that stand
between a person and his money/land and that would include governments
who decide to throw a war or tax the pants off you or make sure you
are dependent on their services.//Yes- politicians, lawyers and
brokers along with other professionals are in the business of making
money off your money by establishing systems that the average person
cannot access or control.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

Interesting rigsy you found games that taught lying and cheating and
general dishonesty fun.. that is a strange sense of morality.. or is
it the preparation for loss of morality?

[archytas]

No problems with that analysis rigs and thinking about it I do gamble
like that with real friends (usually bridge).  I'd have to quibble on
the dictionary definition - this isn't quite what "rents" are in
economics.  I'd have to go on a lot to explain in full.  Rigs hits the
key element anyway - 'systems that the average person cannot access or
control'.  Oil has been a classic example of economic rent - this was
largely done by controlling distribution in order to extract a much
higher price that production costs - this included preventing new
sources of supply in the market until well after WW2.  Barings Bank
was involved in a typical example of false monopoly trading over
cochineal in the 18th century (it was then a major commodity in
leather tanning) - examples are legion - modern cases involve exchange
traded funds attempting to monopolise silver, copper and food.




Accounts can't be read as Allan suggests - the notion of following the
money could apply, but you soon discover the documentation is written
to prevent this and find yourself in a world of transfer pricing and
star burst wire transfers, 105 repos, channel stuffing and companies
claiming profits of 2.5 billion reporting 3.5 billion tax loses
(Enron).  When I worked for Hanson very little attention was paid to
formal accounts in valuing a prospective takeover victim - otherwise
anyone with a copy of Moodys or the like could be an asset-stripper-
style investor.  The game involved private investigators and inside
information on such matters as whether property portfolios were under-
valued and how many LOMBARDS (lots of money but re right dicks) could
be stripped out, how much tax could be avoided by new accounting
techniques and so on.  The sum was then how much the company was worth
under new administration, less what it could be bought for - though
even this involved deals with existing management to get it cheap
through various pressures and whether we could be bought off through
greenmail.




Capital itself is not neutral, let alone the system of accounting for
it.  In fact we allow utterly criminal activity such as private equity
managers putting all the worthwhile firm assets in a fund worth
millions they from and just happen to end up owning - with the rest
written-off in terms of unemployment and tax payer liability for
pensions, redundancy and loss of productive capacity.  A way round
this would be to make directors accountable to juries rather than
register for Delaware protection.  The test should be 'you have
millions - the rest are left with debts bigger than your pot'.  I
suggest anyone thinking accounting neutral read the 2011 Wells Fargo
stuff and ask themselves if they understood anything after the first 9
pages.  On about page 261 you will find $273 million losses mentioned
- try and follow that money!  Allan, I think, describes what the
situation should be, not what it is.




I think rigs' risk takers are in fact thieves who have found a way to
eliminate criminal risk in a combination of writing the law and
lawyers.  A big problem remains on how we can get investment done
decently without just shifting it to the hands of a politburo of state
capitalism.  We know some of the answers to this -  but they are
rarely discussed because the nightmare of Soviet Paradise is used to
kill off debate.  If this doesn't work we are told our wanted
transparency will just make our businesses severely disadvantaged over
global competition that can cheat.




I need to follow some money for a paper at the moment - its on how
much money the UK and US tax payer has put up to save the financial
institutions and where that is now.  Fancy a bit of research Allan?  I
currently have very different accounts - our National Audit Office
(for instance) shows a relatively small amount that has already be
repaid in some fair measure.  However, this doesn't include QE.
 Elsewhere I find much larger amounts, forever increasing that do
include QE and other BoE and Fed dodges and severe doubts on how to
value assets in the system.  This is before I look at the 'opportunity
costs' against investing this money in productive capacity, employment
(etc) whether directly or just by giving the money to pay down private
debt in a jubilee.  I can't discover what accounts our governments are
being fed through which they protect financial services - they
presumably believe such in our national interests. I have done a lot
of work but simply can't reach figures I can use other than in
speculation.  I suspect every household in the UK could have been
given £120K and a higher amount in the US - but I also suspect the
money has gone to banks to hide vast losses that are the product of a
massive, unproductive bubble.




The lack of reliable (neutral) accounts is appalling.  The money
involved is clearly subsidy of the kind thrusting entrepreneurs claim
not to need and clearly our alleged risk takers (who are getting
richer) seems to have found a way to evade personal risk at our
expense.  Frankly, the more I feel I can claim to know in this mess,
the more I think they do no more than use our money to be on the 3.30
p.m. and the rest of the card, keep the winnings and stiff us with the
losses.  I don't know the full story.  If there was a neutral, full
accounting system I suspect we all would.

Having fun is having fun Allan. I doubt any of rigs' guests who lost
are now her indentured debt peons!

> ...
>
> read more »

[gabbydott]

Ah, well. I guess I am being told to embrace the paradox. - I think I am getting this thing about talking to yourself better now.

2013/2/2 gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

they the accountant masters have no intention o releasing of the
information.. and want the system as dishonest as as the possibly can
make it.. that is not the fault of the accounting system ratherthe
souls that are extorting the honest system..

I might be interested as of now I do not have the programs to handle
the information.. could try but I really have not dealt with
accounting in an major form in the last thirty years

do you know of the programs that will run in Android .. would like
to use my transformer.. let me know what I need and where I can get
it hopefully for free..

[archytas]

The information is knowingly obfuscated - we can't even find out what
a country's debts are with that much reliability. Rather than
accounting software I've come round to the view we'd have to conduct
espionage to get the data! I'd almost propose such a jaunt if we
could actually publish what we found.

On Feb 2, 7:37 pm, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> they  the accountant masters have no intention o releasing of  the
> information.. and want the system as dishonest as as the possibly can

> make it..  that is not the fault of the accounting system ratherthee

> ...
>
> read more »

[rigs]

Really, Allan, don't you think you are projecting or flying off the
handle or something here? Don't you want to know what happened to the
8 tiny green turtles? I don't remember- maybe I gave a pair to each
couple or I gave them all to my son's first grade the following
Monday. I didn't make turtle soup!!!

[rigs]

I think risk takers are entrepreneurs that start companies- solo or as
a group- and it's their product/service that should be judged. It's
also the investors who support that company. Both need capital to
invest- private funds or a loan. Both expect a reward- ususally
financial. Sometimes workers are included in the reward system. Who
owns the farm, the company, the store? Who deserves the family
inheritance? Etc. Why punish capitalism?

[Allan H]

Maybe we can that sounds better they wound't like it much though..

Really rigsy I am all for individuals doing their own thing and making
a profit.. what I am against is the giant corporations that that are
raping and pillaging the world for the profit of the few at the
expense of the many and believe me Rigsy you are not the few..

[archytas]

I too think you don't understand rigs and are using language that is
out of date. I have no problems with capitalism per se - though we
still need to do something to prevent wealth being focused in few
hands and perverting our politics. One sees examples I'm sure we'd
both enjoy - farms producing their our butter and cheese from their
own cows, bread from their own wheat - delicious stuff and typical of
what we need more of. A comparatively large cooperative bakery in
which employees take shares based on hours put in. I think we can and
should run capitalism at these levels - the mistake is blowing it up
into something it cannot be and allowing wealth accumulation of
obscene kinds that forces monopolies and economic rents on the rest of
us
Both communist experiments and giant transnational capitalism force a
situation of centralised capital in few hands and lead to corruption -
we need something else. Our votes are being rendered as unimportant
as any in the old Soviet Union.

I worked as a company doctor and remain an advocate of lean
production. The problem with this is we don't look beyond the
consequences for the individual firm. The problem with finance is
that it has taken over the money system instead of becoming a utility
to a broader industrial, agricultural and social system. Profit isn't
the problem but rather the distribution and redeployment of it in
production and better lives. In my view it is immoral not to examine
the difficulties involved in creating a decent system.

The entrepreneurs are not what you suggest - at any given time 40% of
them are looking to open the next coffee shop fad and a further 40%
abut to steal business from current employers. The only innovations
I've seen in financial services are the ATM and Internet banking - the
rest of the entrepreneurialism in that sector are thieving tricks that
corrupt what money is so it can be stolen - and also make productive
investment much more difficult and working hard for a decent wage,
saving, buying one's house and so on almost impossible. The argument
is less about turning socialist and more about reclaiming capitalism
from those who have stolen and perverted it.

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

Marx railed against the financial cavaliers. David Ricardo condemned
landlords as parasites. Adam Smith had a utopian notion of a debt-
free society. Keynes saw the rentier as a temporary, transitional
character in capitalism, seeing a sea-change after the demise of this
functionless investor. In terms of good and bad we don't seem to be
able to get past thinking calls for change are about unseating
capitalism and what we have previously soaked-up as good and bad
without much evaluation. What we have now isn't working for many
people, the planet and so on. I regard it as immoral to shrug this
off as to do with luck or glib asides that 'capitalism is imperfect
but beats all the other games in town' - but how can most people
actually engage with any dialogue given their massive ignorance? We
can hardly start calling people immoral because they haven't learned
much about the world beyond the foot of their own stairs. I still
meet the odd kook who still believes in Stalinism, but Ayn Rand
neoconservatism is as bad.

On Feb 3, 5:46 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I too think you don't understand rigs and are using language that is
> out of date.  I have no problems with capitalism per se - though we

> sti ll need to do something to prevent wealth being focused in few

> ...
>
> read more »

[gabbydott]

I believe the massive ignorance is based on the myth that we know a lot - that we we know so much more than generations before us, that there is a constant or exponential growth of knowledge in people. Cause of the self-interest of educational spin masters et al. I would like to see real access to good knowledge, based on real data. I myself plead guilty of massive ignorance, which does not allow for a dialogue in many cases. I need to start before.

2013/2/4 archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

Currently watching grandson at 15 getting interested in science. He's
doing stuff I did at school when 12. Looking at A level exams
questions a few months back I found I would probably pass in lots of
subjects except the maths and sciences I actually got! On hearing the
official version of how WW1 started at 12 the boy refused to believe
this was true. How could such atrocity take place just because a
couple of upper class old farts were shot up outside a butty bar? I
told him about the 'war of Jenkin's ear' and was accused of making it
up. He's innocent, even for his age - his mother grew out of it by 30
- and I find myself interested in how these historical fairy tales
taught to me as real are so easy for him to dismiss without baggage I
drag about on false flags, vile foreign policy, empire and bent
politics.

I sense you are very right and slightly wrong at the same time on this
Gabby. The Greeks knew a lot but still kept slaves and had no science
a we accept the stuff now. They did have great skills with wood,
stone and metals and engineering - much of it very similar to that of
the shipyards I worked in. We might actually carry less knowledge
about with us these days - grandson isn't taught any of the woodwork
or EWTP I got and can't build flat packs. Skills have been replaced
by mass production methods and embodied knowledge. Even I don't do my
won car repairs and maintenance these days (hurts too much).
Meanwhile the golden knowledge mountain of knowing that is a burden on
our unskilled bodies, reminding us we can't know it all if we are
lucky or blaring what ignorant clowns we are if we aren't. The
individual may know how to less whilst living in a knowledge society
knowing a lot more that and with a lot of knowledge embodied in
machine. Of course, every generation of old farts thinks the ones
coming after it are laggardly, idle, arrogant-ignorant and the rest.
It seems from grandson teachers that the school can't risk teaching
woodwork (who would seriously arm the little vandals with chisels or
even teach them to sharpen it to a point). EWTP was unkown and when I
explained a little beyond engineering workshop theory and practice (an
A level of dummies when I did it) I realised the teachers were
appalled anyone had been irresponsible enough to let people like me
loose on a lathe at 14. They don't teach woodwork or metalwork these
days, the only stuff I have used at home and work. German and French
colleagues tell me the decline in school standards is not limited to
England. Individual humans generally know less these days, but we
know more as a society?

I meet plenty of people who have been suckered by that combination of
literature, film, soap opera, detective fiction, bodice rippers and
school teachers who survived university training through York Notes
and copying. If people knew more they would be occupying the schools
and universities demanding better - Catch 22 is perhaps they are all
waiting for classes in occupying!

On Feb 4, 10:05 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I believe the massive ignorance is based on the myth that we know a lot -
> that we we know so much more than generations before us, that there is a
> constant or exponential growth of knowledge in people. Cause of the
> self-interest of educational spin masters et al. I would like to see real
> access to good knowledge, based on real data. I myself plead guilty of
> massive ignorance, which does not allow for a dialogue in many cases. I
> need to start before.
>

> 2013/2/4 archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[gabbydott]

'Ach du grüne Neune' (Gorblimey!), as we say in old fairy tale language here, "to get out of combat duty" is not really the context I have been thinking of. But of course, the military dimension is not to be forgotten when introducing new knowledge categories. Thanks for pointing that out to me.

2013/2/4 archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[archytas]

I have never actually heard anyone say Gorblimey - it was always
something in comic bubbles - the exclamation associated with a
sighting of large mammaries (I never did understand the connection).
I would be inclined to shoot anyone producing a green nine at cards.
Men look at faces, women at bodies.

On Feb 4, 3:45 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'Ach du grüne Neune' (Gorblimey!), as we say in old fairy tale

> languagehere, "to get out of combat duty" is not really the context

> have been
> thinking of. But of course, the military dimension is not to be forgotten
> when introducing new knowledge categories. Thanks for pointing that out to
> me.
>

> 2013/2/4 archytas <nwte...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[gabbydott]

What you described before was a setting, that would fit my understanding of 'Green Nine', including the personage. I read that German exclamation in an interview the other day, when the person was asked something she/he could not immediately answer, because he/she was not running on expert mode for that specific question at least not at that moment. I liked the verbalization of the larger context without making any person involved looking stupid or arrogant. The greenness of the nine makes it accessible, indicates that it is also only 'bound' in another evolutionary spiral and not the final order of everything. Whereas a person who is said to be  "neunmalklug / ninetimessmart" acts from a three times three ordering of points in a magick square. A closed shop mentality would have been fed by this ordering principle, for example. The double binary contrast of 22 is indeed much easier to convey in an argumentative setting and much easier to be acted upon as an individual in a concrete situation and therefore much more forceful.

2013/2/4 archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[andrew vecsey]

Dear participants of this discussion. I have to admit that much of the things you discuss in this discussion are over my head.  What I think I got from the discussion so far is that as far as "knowledge" is concerned, or a lack of it, or a distortion of it shows more negative aspects than positive ones. The other thing I got from the discussion is that politics has turned out more bad than good - thanks to greed. What about religion? Why is our concept of god so negative? Why have we pictured our gods as cruel and jealous and perverse?  What about nature? Why does it seem perverse in the fact that the more we want something, the more it evades us? Why does time seem to slow down when we would rather it went by quickly? Why does time speed up when we want to relish a moment and wish time to slow down?. Why do many children show signs of cruelty to animals? Why is our history filled with unbelievable violence, especially to our fellow humans? Why does power corrupt? and greed prevail? Why is it that so many harmfull habits are addictive? Why is man so perverse?  

[archytas]

We're the only animals that go through a teenage phase. Primitive
societies are more violent than organised ones, even taking wars into
account. We could rid the world of poverty in a couple of years - we
don't bother but like to think our ourselves as moral. We educate
people in an area of life the majority is no good at.

On Feb 5, 12:37 pm, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear participants of this discussion. I have to admit that much of the
> things you discuss in this discussion are over my head.  What I think I got
> from the discussion so far is that as far as "knowledge" is concerned, or a
> lack of it, or a distortion of it shows more negative aspects than positive

>d rid the world of poverty ones. The other thing I got from the discussion is that politics has turned

[James]

I am sure there is a reasonable explanation for each of those questions, or to an example of each, but my answer to that would be lacking. What interests me now is that you and others ask such a question, the only response that comes to mind is that nature will always challenge us and we will be driven to overcome, because we are aware. It will eat at us until we do, and we are still here.

--

[rigs]

I think some animals act like teenagers between infancy and
adulthood.//Organised societies are more skilled at organized violence
than primitive tribes plus they can ruin another's trade or monetary
system.// We might distribute food- though we might also ruin native
crops- but we still would have no impact against natural disasters.//
We felt enlightment, reason, science and technology would solve all
problems which it does not and ancient myths and religions are often
more realistic about man's dual nature to be either good or bad or
somewhere inbetween.

> > > Why is that?- Hide quoted text -

[rigs]

I think we act in self-interest and hopefully the spurs are positive
and good- thus the rewards.

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[andrew vecsey]

If humanity could be considered as a growing and developing "creature", then I would make it at present time a very young teenager. It is troubled, it thinks it knows more than it does and it likes to play with anything it can get a hold of. It is slowly developing a social conscious and is slowly losing its urge to tear legs off of insects. It was born 200,000 years ago and started to use words 60,000 years ago, when it was about a year old. About 6,000 years ago, when it turned 6, it started to go to kindergarten where it started to build things. Then it went thru the growing pains of adolescence as seen by the scars of terror of the middle ages. It has troubled parents. The father as represented by politics is a poor hardworking alcoholic. Its mother as represented by religion is a real nag that drives her husband to drink all the more.  Is there any hope for this young troubled teenager?

[andrew vecsey]

Hi Rigs, You seem to be a very positive thinking person. In the "Madness and Sanity" discussion, you wrote "Eventually fraud and evil fail by their own undoing by some universal law or force." I hope by the same reasoning, goodness should eventually shine thru the badness that shades it so well in our everyday world. I wonder what that universal law of force is that you allude to.  There are many analogies to this force in science and religion. Gravity, light, consciousness and love are some that come to mind.  It gives me hope. 

[archytas]

Frauds do unravel - let loose on the banksters and Planet Ponzi with
carte blanche the world we are likely to find is upside down. Fraud
enquiries, even in my day, were about building a model of the network
- 'who knows whom'? was always a major question. Now we can use
algorithms to search huge databases of communication - but they often
lead to matters held offshore. I claim 70% of my car against tax and
the taxman could check my claim easily - big firms submit claims
concerning offshore activities that cannot be checked - some companies
already use servers in Panama to evade sequestration of emails and so
on. That fraud is going on is obvious, from our military activities,
looting whole economies (Argentina is probably the classic case since
1830 - (they were briefly 4th highest in per capita GDP and now
bankrupt again) and the money system generally. We generally look the
other way unless tough times come to us directly. Looking the other
way is a first step towards Nazism. I would suggest we do many bad
things in everyday banality.

> > > > an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
> > > > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hidequoted text -

[Allan H]

You are right the corporate and free enterprise is the most fantastic
way of stealing and hiding money ever created is the total dream of
the greedy and selfish souls

> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.
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>
>

[archytas]

I don't know if something called Modern Monetary Theory will pan out
Allan - but in that it all starts with government money, central banks
and favouring banksters with cheap money. I have no doubt this is
true. The questions are really about how we break it all up without
sticking ourselves with an inane bureaucracy that's worse. George
Bush senior hung around in the shadows of BCCI, Neil Bush was around
the thrifts scandal and the criminality is complex. What we don't
know is how people would behave if we could break the crimogenic cycle
and structure genuine freedom.

> >> > > > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hidequotedtext -

>
> >> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
>
> > ---
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

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[Allan H]

The only real solution I see is small communities working for the
common good.. realistically you can develop some semblance of
financial clot.. unfortunately it needs to be family or some other
reason that it group remands in tact..

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[archytas]

More or less my belief Allan - though small parochial groups still
have problems.

[Allan H]

Any group will have its problems Guide lines against short falls could
be helpful.

> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

[andrew vecsey]

Perhaps we are born into a world filled with negative aspects rather than positive aspects so as to give us a direction. We are born small so that we can grow. We are born ignorant so that we could know. We are born with negative aspects so that we could acquire positive ones.

[archytas]

The neo-con/liberal/classical tends to make bad things into 'goods' -
as in greed and trickle-down economics. There's a long video that I
can't fault on facts here:

http://www.documentarywire.com/we-got-fcked

[Allan H]

I watched part of the move I will watch the movie.. one thing I
noticed is the of a spiritual reality.. or the realm of souls.
Watching it I am glad i chose to walk the path of life I did..
Indecently Andrew because something is on the internet it is true,, in
reality it is quite the opposite.

[gabbydott]

Reading your dog image from the opposite side still doesn't make you god in the real world, Allan. Let Andrew find his words.

2013/3/16 Allan H <allan...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

Gabby save your acid for yourself.... I just stated a simple well know
truth,, Andrew can say what ever he wants..

[gabbydott]

It seems the bad truth overshadows the truth because I want the good truth to be on my side. Simple human behaviour, really.

[archytas]

Gabby on acid! I'd have to fly first class on that plane to make sure
I had lying down room, especially after discovering Chris Jenkins was
the pilot!

On Mar 17, 12:26 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It seems the bad truth overshadows the truth because I want the good truth
> to be on my side. Simple human behaviour, really.

> Am 16.03.2013 23:04 schrieb "Allan H" <allanh1...@gmail.com>:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Gabby save your acid for yourself.... I just stated a simple well know
> > truth,, Andrew can say what ever he wants..
>

> > On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 8:51 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Reading your dog image from the opposite side still doesn't make you god
> > in
> > > the real world, Allan. Let Andrew find his words.
>

> > > 2013/3/16 Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com>

>
> > >> I watched part of the move I will watch the movie..  one thing I
> > >> noticed is the of a spiritual reality..  or the realm of souls.
> > >> Watching it I am glad i chose to walk the path of life I did..
> > >> Indecently Andrew because something is on the internet it is true,, in
> > >> reality it is quite the opposite.
>

> > >> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> > >> --
> > >>  (
> > >>   )
> > >> |_D Allan
>
> > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> > >> Of course I talk to myself,
> > >> Sometimes I need expert advice..
>
> > >> --
>
> > >> ---
> > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > >> ""Minds Eye"" group.
> > >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> > an
> > >> email to minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com.

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>
> > > --
>
> > > ---
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[James]

I see this sometimes too Andrew, and we learn how our internal systems
and culture drive and shape us, so we can create. We model from the
simplest sensory stimuli on to reflections on the nature of our
existence and what could be in a simultaneous simulation of reality. Our
world can be full of intent, or I should say we experience it thus due
to our capacity arising from our nature and drawing parables in the
mist. It makes me wonder how many levels of abstraction, simulation and
foresight are necessary to represent the human element. That minds like
ours are derived from nature is astonishing and awe inspiring, that we
reach so far and yet innocence is so fragile, the experience of
awareness is far from today's science I think. Our synthetic
counterparts or robots will have to wait.

[James]

My response was mostly a parallel narrative, my thinking on a personal
level is when does a system of components transcend the boudaries of
automata and begin to engage in the operations of intent. Where does
gene fitness adaptation break loose into something perceiving,
interacting, understanding and mastering? I have heard that our ability
to reflect and interact on an intimate level arises from a strange
neurological mechanism called mirror neurons. If this is something like
the virtualization technologies we have been building in technology then
with a bit more scale and pondering our science may make the leap
logarithmically.

[gabbydott]

I don't know if this is good or bad, but i hear that you haven't just heard about mirror neurons, that this is a relatively consciously made up construct, a construct with intent or purpose. Also it sounds strange when you say that this neurological mechanism is strange (to you). That's where my "parallel mirror neurons" come into play, i compare what you say with what i have heard you saying before and add the info as well as my judgement on what you say to my internal "Virtualization" of you. The leap is more of a constant exercise of differentiating between you and me while operating on the virtualization of each participant, so to speak. Does that somehow make sense to you?  

Of course, I could go back to the group website and search for the real data on what you have been saying on neurological mechanisms. But this would be a completely new project. I'd have to go back and construct a new image with my knowledge of now.

But since you are still alive and still communicating, I find it much easier and more purposeful to keep on listening to what you say, to respond to it, and to rely on you saying, if you disagree. Not a good position for me to be in, more of a survival strategy. Now that's worth a leap into rethinking mode. ;)

2013/3/20 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

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[James]

I have a feeling you are being charitable with me gabby (cringe). What
you say makes sense, and should add that the intent I refer to is in
excess of that needed for mere gene survival fitness. In that sense I
consider the adaptations as simulations and the excess as breaking the
barriers of meta-simulation, or in another way, not just running within
time but operating on it by taking advantage of the rules and finding
ways to bend them. Now it is my turn to ask, does that make sense [to
anyone]?

On 3/20/2013 3:01 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> I don't know if this is good or bad, but i hear that you haven't just
> heard about mirror neurons, that this is a relatively consciously made
> up construct, a construct with intent or purpose. Also it sounds
> strange when you say that this neurological mechanism is strange (to
> you). That's where my "parallel mirror neurons" come into play, i
> compare what you say with what i have heard you saying before and add
> the info as well as my judgement on what you say to my internal
> "Virtualization" of you. The leap is more of a constant exercise of
> differentiating between you and me while operating on the
> virtualization of each participant, so to speak. Does that somehow
> make sense to you?
>
> Of course, I could go back to the group website and search for the
> real data on what you have been saying on neurological mechanisms. But
> this would be a completely new project. I'd have to go back and
> construct a new image with my knowledge of now.
>
> But since you are still alive and still communicating, I find it much
> easier and more purposeful to keep on listening to what you say, to
> respond to it, and to rely on you saying, if you disagree. Not a good
> position for me to be in, more of a survival strategy. Now that's
> worth a leap into rethinking mode. ;)
>
>

> 2013/3/20 James <ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>

> minds-eye+...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

> For more options, visit
> https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
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[gabbydott]

Now that sounds more like you. :)
What you are describing or asking I now understand/interpret/hear in terms of what I know about what they are trying to find out about "junk DNA". Its purpose/function/added value. As for what you describe as another way, I know/experience/see this in what the companies describe as "developing the market". We are still on topic, aren't we? 

2013/3/21 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

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[James]

My thoughts didn't include "junk DNA", my thinking on such terms are
mixed in that some genes may not be useful or represent just another
failure point, but also that the supposed junk in one set of
circumstances may prove quite beneficial in others like a backup, an
alternate development chain or complex interdependencies we haven't
observed yet. You may have a connection in mind I haven't gleaned.

Developing the market sounds similar but I am trying to root out an
aspect of this that doesn't require jumping to a premature conclusion,
such as in 'intelligent design', materialism, rigid ontologies or
realism. Thanks for helping me explore here gabby, lets hope some form
emerges in expression. :)

On 3/21/2013 3:57 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> Now that sounds more like you. :)
> What you are describing or asking I now understand/interpret/hear in
> terms of what I know about what they are trying to find out about
> "junk DNA". Its purpose/function/added value. As for what you describe
> as another way, I know/experience/see this in what the companies
> describe as "developing the market". We are still on topic, aren't we?
>
>

> 2013/3/21 James <ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>

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[andrew vecsey]

Not all DNA code for protein. We have non coding DNA called "junk DNA" that ensure we are all unique. While normal DNA codes for protein to make, for example a "nose", junk DNA ensures that we grow a nose that "looks" like a mixture of our father`s and our mother`s nose. 

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[rigs]

Junk is an unfortunate adjective- it sounds too random. My guess is
that further selection takes place in this area which selects the
strongest marker- or whatever it's called- such in the color of eyes,
hair, and other characteristics. There are also generational skips in
play. I have noted other strange echoes of a missing parent such as
the style of laughter which is a surprise and so many other
recognitions. At any rate, we are just beginning to sort through the
data in this one area as in others- I think it is called "big data"
which will overcome the religious notion of "sins of the father" stuff
as well as curses and fate and will hopefully allow a more rational
and postive approach/life choices for each unique individual. But it
will also cause mischief.

On Mar 22, 5:16 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not all DNA code for protein. We have non coding DNA called "junk DNA" that
> ensure we are all unique. While normal DNA codes for protein to make, for
> example a "nose", junk DNA ensures that we grow a nose that "looks" like a
> mixture of our father`s and our mother`s nose.
>
>
>
> On Friday, March 22, 2013 12:36:39 AM UTC+1, Ash wrote:
>
> > My thoughts didn't include "junk DNA", my thinking on such terms are
> > mixed in that some genes may not be useful or represent just another
> > failure point, but also that the supposed junk in one set of
> > circumstances may prove quite beneficial in others like a backup, an
> > alternate development chain or complex interdependencies we haven't
> > observed yet. You may have a connection in mind I haven't gleaned.
>
> > Developing the market sounds similar but I am trying to root out an
> > aspect of this that doesn't require jumping to a premature conclusion,
> > such as in 'intelligent design', materialism, rigid ontologies or
> > realism. Thanks for helping me explore here gabby, lets hope some form
> > emerges in expression. :)
>
> > On 3/21/2013 3:57 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> > > Now that sounds more like you. :)
> > > What you are describing or asking I now understand/interpret/hear in
> > > terms of what I know about what they are trying to find out about
> > > "junk DNA". Its purpose/function/added value. As for what you describe
> > > as another way, I know/experience/see this in what the companies
> > > describe as "developing the market". We are still on topic, aren't we?
>

> > > 2013/3/21 James <ashk...@gmail.com <javascript:> <mailto:
> > ashk...@gmail.com <javascript:>>>

> > >         2013/3/20 James <ashk...@gmail.com <javascript:>
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> ...
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> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[archytas]

Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-over-junk-dna-claim
I agree with rigs that the term is unfortunate.
We are seeing something similar to the way physics relates the sub-
atomic to the cosmological in this area of biology. In the lab we
have identified a specific gene that is methylated in obese
individuals (and not in the slim set). We can also link this to big
data (epidemiology) following, say, the children of starving Dutch
women at the end if WW2 who probably 'suffered' such methylation
(epigenetics) to help them through the distress. In later times of
plenty this made them more susceptible to obesity, insulin resistance
and diabetes. The hut is on for 'reverse methylation'. I agree such
work will help us move on from superstition. In another line of work
it looks as though early treatment (before behavioural symptoms) may
cure schizophrenia.

I worry at other levels - now being called such as neuroeconomics -
the example I would give is the use of what we are discovering about
the brain for management purposes. I have long treated initiatives we
can label as 'kwality' with scorn (Peter Drucker was calling them
union-bashing etc. as long ago as 1950). Direct dismissal was rarely
a safe form of organisation behaviour, but I could feign 'enthusiasm'
and generally ignore them and get on with my job. Now they say they
can probe my brain to ensure I comply For that matter I could once
pretend to implement such programmes in a certain spirit of irony.
Now they might give me a 'tri-coder' to detect resistance! Even this
might have an up side - imagine being able to report an undeniable
proof to management that they had no employees dumb enough to support
excellence, kwality and other such dross! Conversation over dinner
might be somewhat dulled if we spent out time pointing such devices at
each other though rigs! Watch out for the first one minute dating
agency providing such! Arghh"

> ...
>
> read more »

[andrew vecsey]

Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a built in like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a good way to detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of "big brother".

On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
.....................

Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-over-junk-dna-claim
I agree with rigs that the term is unfortunate.

........but I could feign 'enthusiasm' ..
........' to detect resistance!  Even this
.....no employees dumb enough to support
excellence, ......

 

if we spent out time pointing such devices at
each other though rigs!  Watch out for the first one minute dating

agency providing such!  Arghh" .

[rigs]

I am more interested in why we lie to ourselves, suppress reality and
snarl logic in our brains. There are life and death moments of
survival, I suppose, but much of our potential is engineered by family
and culture in order to achieve some sort of control and order. Even
rebels are often little more than a reaction. Pretense and etiquette
are often the same thing.//I must have "lost" my thought re "big
data"/"Big Daddy? as an organizer of human knowledge versus the
present scatterings and specialties.// Yes- I agree most have a gut
reaction- but so do other life forms- it's a survival mechanism. But
it can be distorted.

On Mar 24, 4:12 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a built in
> like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a good way to
> detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of "big
> brother".
>
> On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>
> .....................
>
>
>
> > Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist at
>

> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove...

[rigs]

My neighbor joined a dating service after her divorce and all the men
she met at "just lunch" were married! She paid a large fee and set
about to straighten her teeth, bunions, wardrobe and found happily
ever after later when fixed up by a friend.//My dive into particulars
of DNA was off-course. I like the petty details of traits, I guess,
but am also intrigued why choices are made contrary to self-interest-
like a futile relationship or impossible-to-win war, etc. Is it
wishful thinking or suicidal?

On Mar 23, 12:08 pm, archytas <nwte...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist athttp://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove...

[andrew vecsey]

I do not think that we lie to our self so much as that we only see/hear what we want to see/hear. Also we tend to say what we think the other persons wants to hear or say things to hurt other people.

[archytas]

I'll try and leave you with that Andrew.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

the most valuable person I ever had to listen to was myself, because
if I listen carefully I said to others in reality was speaking about
myself especially when I was being critical.

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[gabbydott]

The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?

2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com>

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[James]

You words ring true Allan, a background in conflict can build so many
barriers, I've come to regard it as a cognitive tax. Another debt
inequitable perhaps. Where this meets the surveillance and subservience
topic I think is that the mechanisms for lie detection I've heard about
don't differentiate on complex emotional/intellectual causes, false
positives are valuable to extract confessions for punishment and judging
what is far from understood. Mental policing is a nightmare concept to
hear about and should be relegated to the prestige of torture, my
concern is that it can be applied broadly and with little oversight and
drastic mental consequences to the undeserving.

[James]

If distortions are the best we can muster lets hope they fit the task at
hand, now what that is and where in environment and identity seems very
defining no?

On 3/25/2013 5:02 PM, gabbydott wrote:
> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>
>
> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com

> <mailto:andrew...@gmail.com>>

> <mailto:minds-eye%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>.

[gabbydott]

Unfortunately, no. My agency does not operate on the basis of an innate, pre-programmed best behavior pattern, it co-develops with me, and I better define it the best behavior I can show, which is not true, of course, but it helps me with my environment. Sorry, who set the task?

2013/3/26 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

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[James]

It seems to me that the task is set between a conditioned identity that
adapts and acquires knowledge about a perceptual environment mostly
subconsciously on one hand and the other is managing an exchange between
acquired directives and the challenge of inadequacies (even when wicked
and intractable problems present themselves). How the perceptual
environment is absorbed I think has a lot to do with individual traits,
but it seems that however many levels of emergent systems are involved
there is interaction, communication and adaptation of the different
layers (levels, systems, what have you).

Where it gets interesting is that the background gets filled in while
trying to understand and explain the apparent and intuitive. That space
is where I see the identity acting as an agent, but more than an agent
operating within a 'bounded rationality' (per se) but a construct of
multiple motives competing for attention, recognition, expression
underlying the persona or more intimately self image and ultimately
attenuating the brain to operate within the basic parameters of this
environment for better or worse.

This hypothetical view or variations and thinking systematically helps
tame my brain's attenuations, it doesn't seem to be adapted well to me
but I manage to patch things up here and there with discipline or
bypassing circuits. Long ago my world was fire and ice, now it has to be
bridged somehow- reset the task, it is the same but different with some
place shifting.. I am right-brain dominant gabby, it is fitting to have
a sense of irony about my ideas, especially my earlier message. :)

On 3/26/2013 3:39 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> Unfortunately, no. My agency does not operate on the basis of an
> innate, pre-programmed best behavior pattern, it co-develops with me,
> and I better define it the best behavior I can show, which is not
> true, of course, but it helps me with my environment. Sorry, who set
> the task?
>
>

> 2013/3/26 James <ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>

>
> If distortions are the best we can muster lets hope they fit the
> task at hand, now what that is and where in environment and
> identity seems very defining no?
>
>
> On 3/25/2013 5:02 PM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>
>
> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrew...@gmail.com

> <mailto:andrew...@gmail.com> <mailto:andrew...@gmail.com

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[gabbydott]

Ah, the typical Hipster Zeitgeist self-positioning - please consume with ironic detachment. No, I don't support artificial sweeteners (bad). I prefer taking the truth with a grain of salt (good).

2013/3/27 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

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[archytas]

I've just read a book that says neo-classical economics is just an
ideology forced down our throats by the vile rich - actually the whole
book probably says less than that as the authors won't call a spade a
spade. Gabby seems to have read he book too. It came 30 years too
late. I could have missed all those research methods classes and
worried less about feeling economics was a load of junk that could
only make sense to Monty Python's dead Norwegian Blue parrot. Perhaps
economists have just discovered the archive of my lecture notes, lost
on a bus in Lancaster in 1983? I seem to remember they advocated
swapping one set of distorting filters for another and mentioning the
term paradigm a lot. Big data was barred as positivist - a term I
loosely translated as 'guileless scientist like you Neil'. You had to
call data 'capta' to be in with the crowd that mistakenly thought it
was the in crowd, socially constructed facts from thin air I
interpreted as a source for green hydrocarbon production and taught me
to spell phenomenological.

On Mar 25, 10:02 pm, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>

> 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com>

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I do not think that we lie to our self so much as that we only see/hear
> > what we want to see/hear. Also we tend to say what we think the other
> > persons wants to hear or say things to hurt other people.
>
> > On Sunday, March 24, 2013 10:46:03 AM UTC+1, rigs wrote:
>
> >> I am more interested in why we lie to ourselves, suppress reality and
> >> snarl logic in our brains. There are life and death moments of
> >> survival, I suppose, but much of our potential is engineered by family
> >> and culture in order to achieve some sort of control and order. Even
> >> rebels are often little more than a reaction. Pretense and etiquette
> >> are often the same thing.//I must have "lost" my thought re "big
> >> data"/"Big Daddy? as an organizer of human knowledge versus the
> >> present scatterings and specialties.// Yes- I agree most have a gut
> >> reaction- but so do other life forms- it's a survival mechanism. But
> >> it can be distorted.
>
> >> On Mar 24, 4:12 am, andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Faked enthusiasm is as easy to spot as fake love. It is like a built in
> >> > like a lie detector that god created us with. Sounds like a good way to
> >> > detect lying on the internet. You can call it "god" instead of "big
> >> > brother".
>
> >> > On Saturday, March 23, 2013 6:08:39 PM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>
> >> > .....................
>
> >> > > Quite what junk DNA is has raised a big recent controversy - gist at
>

> >> > >http://www.guardian.co.uk/**science/2013/feb/24/**
> >> scientists-attacked-ove.<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove.>..

> ...
>
> read more »

[James]

One approach that I've rarely caught in a class is a teacher taking a no
BS approach to the material. It seems useful to have a frank historical
perspective on what motivates the theories or breaches the old
paradigms, perhaps a creative excursion into cultural universals. Maybe
picking a few wacky examples of applied economics and let them get a
good laugh, then show parallels with their culture to get them thinking.

One example is ancient civilizations using up natural resources, then
looking over the forecasted impact of the US aquifers bottoming out.
Suddenly the conservationists don't sound as alarmist, is there a word
for the "Oh shit!" pedagogic method? No offense but economics sounds
boring in itself, but your thoughts here make it sound interesting. Are
you allowed to hint to the class when you think something is little more
than an academic publishing circle jerk?

Hmm, what you've said about 'distorting filters' has me wondering if I
missed gabby's point. You lost a book and I was born.. :D

>> read more �

[James]

That I've felt a sense of irony about my task says nothing about my
salt, it just seems I tensed up and remembered to take a breath 27 years
later. That sounds like silly psychobabble but that was the feeling.
Your hint at choosing the best parts was quite helpful in retracing time
without falling into a hole, thanks gabby and I agree both forward (as
you said) and backward. The consistent virtues, in my case intuition and
determination, which set the task.

You are either tough as nails or trying to pry a laugh outta me gabby,
maybe.. ?

On 3/27/2013 6:38 AM, gabbydott wrote:
> Ah, the typical Hipster Zeitgeist self-positioning - please consume
> with ironic detachment. No, I don't support artificial sweeteners
> (bad). I prefer taking the truth with a grain of salt (good).
>
>

> 2013/3/27 James <ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com

> <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com> <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com

> <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com <mailto:rigs...@gmail.com>>>

> <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>
> <javascript:>
> <mailto:
> > > > > > ashk...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>
> <javascript:>
> > > > > > > <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>
> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>
> <javascript:>>
> <mailto:
> > > > > > ashk...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com

> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>>
> <javascript:>
> > > > > > > <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com
> <mailto:ashk...@gmail.com>
>

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[archytas]

She goes weak at the knees over injustice before taking up the courage
of good sense James.  I'm nor sure anything else matters once you know
that.  Another German friend used to act as my straight man in
lectures on irony.  He'd go on for a while and then I'd say - 'so you
Germans even want to take the humour out of irony then'?  If the class
laughed we'd continue the routine, swapping roles until the real pitch
on economics - our view being the subject cannot be understood without
irony and that you need to go further than Socrates' jibes and
understand it's more than the relief or insult of the joke.  If the
class didn't laugh we'd teach them some maths - usually on derivative
or other hedging and see if they got the irony in that (it can only
work in certain conditions excluded from the maths - it's a bit like
insuring against the certainty that the insurers will have no money
when you need them to pay out).




Some economists are catching up on where research methods in other
social sciences were 40 years ago - it's painful to watch.  This won't
help.  Some are fixated with school biology notions of brain structure
(stem, reptilian, limbic and higher - roughly - they call it the
triune brain).  In fact the human body has two brains - the enteric
nervous system has loads of neurons and lots of any serotonin washing
about.  We know a great deal about the brain (neuroscience) and a lot
of that comes down to Molly's 'embrace the paradox' - most brain
states are roughly ones of ambiguity,  We are easily conned by actors
and psychopaths (and may want to be) - and probably bacteria we host.
 Economists cite Hobbes on biology - you'd think they'd read Dawkins!
 I do some of this in class and introduce neuroeconomics.  I hope to
get far enough into this 'new muck' for people to get some handle on
day-to-day irrationality in our behaviour - it ends in another ironic
corner - if much of the high paid decision making is so irrational/
hormone dependent why have we not swept it away by a more rational
system?  And why do we pretend we have?




I do stuff like 24 hour profit and loss (Enron was good at this) -
this brings sales from, say, 10 years hence (but made now if the
contract holds for 10 years) into the present.  I get asked why and
show students what their cut would be if they were working as a trader
in the example and let them choose the pay cheque with or without it.
 I do the same with mine assuming I'm taking over-riders from the
whole class.  I then ask something like 'compare and contrast bonuses
paid to the UK's 4% financial sector workforce with those pad across
the whole UK economy (the 4% get 40% of all UK bonuses) and how much
has been paid out since Lehman in the UK (£60 billion) and a realistic
estimate of UK bank under-capitalisation (range £25 to £150 billion)'.
- they should get to what caused what themselves, but most of them are
making mental notes to apply for jobs where 24 hour P & L is in
operation.




I take issue with economists who think we teach these students self-
interests and lack of integrity.  I'm just not that good - and anyway
we do a pre-101 ethics test and economics' majors are always the
worst.  The rot is in long before higher education and anyway those
with Bildung fell in front of the Nazis like a red carpet.  A few of
the kids get into critical material and are nearly always the best at
the routine sums - most of my time is spent teaching those to people
who could never actually see which sums need to be devised, never see
the spreadsheets they use exclude most of what matters to make them
balance easily ...

The classic whacky economics 'arguments' are such as the case of the
Bulgarian pigs - a whole thesis on the doubling of the Bulgarian pig
industry in 1918 was trashed on the discovery they changed the
calendar in that year and the excess pigs were awaiting Xmas execution
(Xmas now coming after measurement date instead of before). One might
explain trickle down theory or other guff about rigs' 'innovative,
risk taking rich', point to the vast increase of 1% wealth since
Lehman and ask for examples of the fell good factor in the class. The
historical context is that classical economists (Adam Smith, Richardo,
Hume) were all against this rentier class and wanted free markets free
of today's rent-seeking predation and the current mainstream is merely
the ideological adjunct of the current oligarchy. I could butter my
parsnips, but suspect I wouldn't ease students' ability in this regard
in a right-wing job market. In the end I don't hold with the
ideological guff anyway. Swedish labour costs per hour are $40 an
hour and in Bulgaria they are $4/hr - this in the same trading block
(EU). It seems a no-brainer to take your business to Bulgaria - until
you think Sweden has been on of the best places to live since WW1 and
Bulgaria not. I've worked in both and Sweden wins hands down -
despite lousy weather.

Very few students have minds open to science or have done much
science. They should be off seeing the world, preferably on
international service where the effects of lousy economics and
politics are felt worst. I've usually been better with students over
30 who have worked out mummy and daddy didn't tell them the truth and
have discovered television is mostly boring.

On Mar 28, 3:21 am, James <ashkas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That I've felt a sense of irony about my task says nothing about my
> salt, it just seems I tensed up and remembered to take a breath 27 years
> later. That sounds like silly psychobabble but that was the feeling.
> Your hint at choosing the best parts was quite helpful in retracing time
> without falling into a hole, thanks gabby and I agree both forward (as
> you said) and backward. The consistent virtues, in my case intuition and
> determination, which set the task.
>
> You are either tough as nails or trying to pry a laugh outta me gabby,
> maybe.. ?
>
> On 3/27/2013 6:38 AM, gabbydott wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ah, the typical Hipster Zeitgeist self-positioning - please consume
> > with ironic detachment. No, I don't support artificial sweeteners
> > (bad). I prefer taking the truth with a grain of salt (good).
>

> > 2013/3/27 James <ashkas...@gmail.com <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>

> >         2013/3/26 James <ashkas...@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com> <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:ashkas...@gmail.com>>>

>
> >             If distortions are the best we can muster lets hope they
> >         fit the
> >             task at hand, now what that is and where in environment and
> >             identity seems very defining no?
>
> >             On 3/25/2013 5:02 PM, gabbydott wrote:
>
> >                 The Big Picture via distorting filters onto Big Data?
>

> >                 2013/3/24 andrew vecsey <andrewvec...@gmail.com

> >         <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com>
> >                 <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com
> >         <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com>>
> >         <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com>
>
> >                 <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com

> >         <mailto:andrewvec...@gmail.com>>>>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

Ego nihil scio ... nihil

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[gabbydott]

Oh, the credits for pointing out the possibility/likelihood of being the subject/object of distortions go to Rigs! Omitting the predicate might have evoked the feeling you could have missed something, but no, you're right, there was no point. 

The "Oh shit!" pedagogic method is called "black pedagogy", not to be mistaken with "black humor", or with the connections to the past that Rigs draws.

Hey Neil, how about "New Shades Of Black" as a book title for the book I have pre-ordered from you? Ok, I admit, I'm not really waiting, I have already started reading. :)

2013/3/28 James <ashk...@gmail.com>

read more »

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[rigs]

Funny. I was just musing that social media is related to the thumbs up/
down of the Colosseum of ancient Rome! :-)

On Mar 29, 6:28 am, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, the credits for pointing out the possibility/likelihood of being the
> subject/object of distortions go to Rigs! Omitting the predicate might have
> evoked the feeling you could have missed something, but no, you're right,
> there was no point.
>
> The "Oh shit!" pedagogic method is called "black pedagogy", not to be
> mistaken with "black humor", or with the connections to the past that Rigs
> draws.
>
> Hey Neil, how about "New Shades Of Black" as a book title for the book I
> have pre-ordered from you? Ok, I admit, I'm not really waiting, I have
> already started reading. :)
>

> 2013/3/28 James <ashkas...@gmail.com>

> >>>>>>>http://www.guardian.co.uk/****science/2013/feb/24/**<http://www.guardian.co.uk/**science/2013/feb/24/**>
>
> >>>>>> scientists-attacked-ove.<http:**//www.guardian.co.uk/science/**
> >>>>> 2013/feb/24/scientists-**attacked-ove<http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2013/feb/24/scientists-attacked-ove>

[archytas]

New Shades of Black sort of works for what I meant to write. We
scientists never got on with grammar, having decided explosions and
light effects much more interesting than the seduction of language and
the aphoristic path to French homosexuals or novels meant for girls.
To us sentences were meaningless enough, probably some sort of mating
talk we would eventually have to learn to predicate ourselves with
subjects of the wider form of life we hoped to sleep with whilst
awake. Someone forgot to tell Shakespeare we prefer quiet and thus
one has to put up with a lot of noise before the rest belatedly
acknowledged and consigned to silence by the copy-scribe Wittgenstein
whilst in traction.

What is the decision of the cut-off thumb rigs? The one next to one
hand clapping. What fuggy muggy logic behind the pub door lures from
the temptation of an affair with Karenina otherwise a necessity in not
getting out enough? Translation bitter gnädiges Fräulein lest I lapse
to that most logically structured modern language eliminating space
grammar of verylongwordsruntogether and verbs inconveniently placed so
that one after the event what's going on knows. Or assume I have gone
mad reading Goethe during an opera by Wagner. There is no difference
without differance I was told, French cafe with poor folk music poor
folk might have feigned attention of to stay warm as hinterland no
desired fuggymug in Paris over beer designed for Pelicans with an old
Jewish pied noire clinking Glas because his son had disowned him for
secrets said in public.

I must remember word order in German is more flexible than in English
when I study for my certificates in
Rindfleischetikettierungsüberwachungsaufgabenübertragungsgesetz. You
just have to know a compound as long as that concerns or deserves
butchery! Gabby and I (now there's a title for a dreadful sitcom) may
share Old Saxon or earlier German grass-porridge growing invaders of
Scotland ancestry. Genes may be better proof than attempting to
construct the common language before my Scot's tendency to bad
poetics, the lady's dark-eye observation code and the smile that will
come on knowledge my grandson has eaten the last of the biscuits.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

You took singing lessons in Germany Neil? did you get a chance to sing some of Wagner's operas? ;o0

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[archytas]

My singing clears life faster than a neutron bomb.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

well maybe there might be some unik employment avenues there

> ...
>
> read more »

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