An Icon Dies

[Don Johnson]

I grew up respecting, almost revering Margaret Thatcher. What a stalwart in the face of encroaching Communism and it's inherent destruction of individuality and creativity. I hope her passing brings more conservative economic policy into the debate. I don't know about England but over here in America we are still spending money we don't have and expanding government services our government sucks at dispensing. Our elected representatives lie to our faces on national television and there's almost no reaction. I suppose it's always been like that but I hate it when we're being "fundamentally changed" and most of the public is blissfully unaware of the nefarious agenda being enacted right under their noses. The Iron Lady's warnings about the follies of big government are being ignored globally to our mutual detriment. 

Anyways that's my thoughts about her. I know many of you have different thoughts on her impact and contributions and this thread is a chance to air them. I'll never forget reading Frederick Von Heyek's reaction to his first meeting her. "She's so beautiful!" Not an adjective I would have applied to her myself but to a guy used to having debates and discussions with hairy old men she must have seemed a Goddess. 

[Allan H]

Didn't like her like I don't like her buddy Reagan, Between them they started the ball rolling that destroyed the economic stability of the world..

She started a War in The Falkland Island to prove Britain was or is a a world power..  unfortunately you can not change history   you can only learn from your mistakes..  but first you have to be honest. Which is an extremely rare commodity among politicians..

On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 4:00 AM, Don Johnson <daj...@gmail.com> wrote:

I grew up respecting, almost revering Margaret Thatcher. What a stalwart in the face of encroaching Communism and it's inherent destruction of individuality and creativity. I hope her passing brings more conservative economic policy into the debate. I don't know about England but over here in America we are still spending money we don't have and expanding government services our government sucks at dispensing. Our elected representatives lie to our faces on national television and there's almost no reaction. I suppose it's always been like that but I hate it when we're being "fundamentally changed" and most of the public is blissfully unaware of the nefarious agenda being enacted right under their noses. The Iron Lady's warnings about the follies of big government are being ignored globally to our mutual detriment. 

Anyways that's my thoughts about her. I know many of you have different thoughts on her impact and contributions and this thread is a chance to air them. I'll never forget reading Frederick Von Heyek's reaction to his first meeting her. "She's so beautiful!" Not an adjective I would have applied to her myself but to a guy used to having debates and discussions with hairy old men she must have seemed a Goddess. 

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|_D Allan

Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.

Of course I talk to myself,
Sometimes I need expert advice..

[rigs]

Women owe her a lot though she was not a feminist. She turned Britain
around but is a controversial figure. I say, Rest in Peace, Maggie!

[gabbydott]

She turned Britain around? In the fairy tale stories I have grown up with the real queen always wins and outlives them all. :)

2013/4/10 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

[Allan H]

You ae a devote republican extremist Rigsy ..  Ronald Reagan  did more damage to the US than any other President,, including almost starting 3 three nuclear  wars with Russia,,  the starter of the massive deficit increases and irresponsible government.

Now The thacher and him were great buddies and she did great harm to Britain bring on irresponsible government. At every opportunity created discord with europe..  simply because he was a fan of regean economic and his form of government,,   She never had the ability to admit she was wrong and had to have her way even if it harmed others.

to me both of them do not deserve the honors they are given.

[archytas]

I rather liked the idea of a female PM and a scientist in the role.
She quickly disappointed. Britain needed change - but to me she was
an example of throw-back change and like Churchill was a Boy's Own
fiction. She was an icon of neo-liberalism and like Reagan a puppet
who could only read from provided scripts. Many Brits see her like
Don. Most of us have got over her.
The next similar and currently much more likable figure in our
politics is Nigel Farrage - he runs the UK Independent Party. UKIP
really has only one policy and this is to get out of the EU.
Membership actually only costs each household about £150 a year, but
we blame the EU for almost everything. It's a stupid bureaucracy we
could do without and now seems the vehicle of the latest German
aggression in Europe. This time it's Merkel's model economy instead
of Frederick's model army and Britain is way to puny to stop it - or
so the story here usually runs Gabs. I'm struck that heroic great
leaders - Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Churchill seem to leave their
countries broke. Thatcher did it be giving the oil to banksters
instead of creating a sovereign wealth fund and modern industry.

My own take on Thatcher is a bit like Don's in reverse. The real
enemy wasn't the commies but the neo-conservatives. So in my book she
was undermining democracy on behalf of the super-rich who have our
politics in their pocket. I guess we'll both know when we have the
wagons in a circle Don!

On 12 Apr, 09:43, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You ae a devote republican extremist Rigsy ..  Ronald Reagan  did more
> damage to the US than any other President,, including almost starting 3
> three nuclear  wars with Russia,,  the starter of the massive deficit
> increases and irresponsible government.
> Now The thacher and him were great buddies and she did great harm to
> Britain bring on irresponsible government. At every opportunity created
> discord with europe..  simply because he was a fan of regean economic and
> his form of government,,   She never had the ability to admit she was wrong
> and had to have her way even if it harmed others.
>
> to me both of them do not deserve the honors they are given.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:37 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > She turned Britain around? In the fairy tale stories I have grown up with
> > the real queen always wins and outlives them all. :)
>

> > 2013/4/10 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>

> >> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

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[rigs]

I consider myself a moderate, Allan. I think Reagan and Thatcher
countered the extreme Left and attempted to restore some order to
politics and society. Didn't Israel develope a working missle shield?
Anyway, my favorite Thatcher line is the one about socialism being
"fine" until you run out of other people's money. You would not
believe the irresponsible mischief being dreamed up by my state
legislature- over stocked with Democrats. People will simply move.

On Apr 12, 3:43 am, Allan H <allanh1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You ae a devote republican extremist Rigsy ..  Ronald Reagan  did more
> damage to the US than any other President,, including almost starting 3
> three nuclear  wars with Russia,,  the starter of the massive deficit
> increases and irresponsible government.
> Now The thacher and him were great buddies and she did great harm to
> Britain bring on irresponsible government. At every opportunity created
> discord with europe..  simply because he was a fan of regean economic and
> his form of government,,   She never had the ability to admit she was wrong
> and had to have her way even if it harmed others.
>
> to me both of them do not deserve the honors they are given.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 5:37 PM, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > She turned Britain around? In the fairy tale stories I have grown up with
> > the real queen always wins and outlives them all. :)
>

> > 2013/4/10 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>

> >> For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
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> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,

> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rigs]

I sensed an underlying insecurity due to the class structure covered
by posture and scripts. You will need Europe for trade. Wars break the
economy. Do you ever count up the profits there?

[archytas]

Well, I'd only hope you weren't immoderate rigs! In terms of the
Rusting Lady's statement you use, her banksters are using up other
people's money. We have to move with the times. Here's an example of
someone from Reagan's administration how has.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oH4scsuHp4E

I don't believe in socialism and never have. I do believe in
international democracy, full employment and equality before the law.

[Don Johnson]

My goodness you've lumped Churchill in with some disreputable characters haven't you Archy? I knew most of y'all wouldn't have cared for her very much but I wish we had someone just like her that could win an election over here but that's just not going to happen anytime too soon. 

[Allan H]

We had her hero was Regean watch the video to begin to see the damage done.  By the way good to read you Don..

Matrix  **  th3 beginning light

[rigs]

And who is in charge of the banks? The Treasury? Answer: the
government.//All systems have been a methodical or military effort to
redistribute wealth from one sector to another.//Some cultures are
allergic to democracy and lack the basic skills to put it in motion.
Same with employment. Equality before the law also has some "bugs".
But you are a dear dreamer anyway.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[rigs]

He forgot Roosevelt. And the generals/admirals who knew how many would
be killed in advance. My- such a cutthroat world.

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

well Rigsy there is no one in charge of the Banks except Banksters and corporations,,

The only true way out is to return to complete regulation..   but you can bet your last dollar the extreme conservative republicans are not going to let that happen.. .  

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[Molly]

Roosevelt, Roosevelt, waitin' on Roosevelt.

> > > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.-Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

which one Molly?  It seems the day of the honest politician that put the nation above private interest is dead, gone and buried.. It is not to late to save the economy but that will not happen as long as they can line thir pockets with gold.. and if there is an honest politician they throw so much money agaist them it is impossible to win.

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[rigs]

We need less sentimentality re our elections- they have become
popularity contests sprinkled with celebrities, media bias, appeal to
base or selfish interests, etc. We also need serious, educated voters
which diminishes with universal sufferage and all the axes grinding
away. I do think there are honest people concerned about the general
welfare. Another correction should be term limits. The general disgust
with politicians is widespread but we get the government we deserve or
settle for. Would private wealth guarantee an honest politician or
would power be just as corrupting. (You could also rant about
scientists who have thus far failed to cure the ills of humanity.)

> > For more options, visithttps://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

>
> --
>  (
>   )
> |_D Allan
>
> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
>
> Of course I talk to myself,

> Sometimes I need expert advice..- Hide quoted text -

[Allan H]

No it is well documented that private wealth does not create honest politicians,, we are documenting that daily..and world wide..  scientist are workinging at curing the ills of mankind  it is the greed of corporation and the people that run them that prevent it,,

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[gabbydott]

Make power relations visible from the beginning on, is what I suggest. And start with positioning yourself in whatever frame that is under discussion. Educated voters do not pop up by flipping the age switch. Sending kids out at the age of 14 to have them experience how power relations also work outside family and school is an easy way of keeping my hands clean. - A re view from/at the grassroots. 

2013/4/24 rigs <rig...@gmail.com>

[archytas]

Churchill was half American - nuff said Don! I hoped Thatcher would
be real change - but this dream is always rubbish - look at Obama.
Oliver Stone did The Untold American History recently - it turned out
not to be news to me, but we have forgotten how much sentiment there
was towards the end of WW2 about job guarantee and a democratic world
(Henry Wallace, generally unknown here, was the heart of it). The
debate had been had here at the end of WW1 - E D Morel unseated
Churchill in Dundee.

I think democracy is dead. I suspect many of us worry about this
across the old political spectrum. The left is haunted by Soviet
Paradise and now the right faces much the same with the banksters and
crony capitalism - the shadow politburo. Most of us want government
off our backs and probably think it's better to be able to vote for
what we want. But let's face it, Plato couldn't resolve the
corruption problem in seven books and didn't notice slavery was
wrong. I suspect Hayek and Popper would have disliked Thatcher - they
were anti-convictionist. I dislike the road to serfdom whether by
Soviet or global wage arbitrage. I don't share rigs' views above now
- but I did until a few years ago.

On the young Gabby, there is no talking to teenagers (scientifically)
and peer influence is at its greatest. Quite why humans specialise in
this extended period of painful childishness I don't know. I favour
doing them as little damage as possible and don't think debt peonage
by extending childhood to 21 is appropriate. I doubt people can stay
honest in leadership or politics without transparency and a system in
which they return to 'ordinary' status.

So how do we do transparent in a dirty old world? In games of
negotiation, undergraduate teams always chose the strategy that shits
on the other group - presumably thinking the other group can't work
out the simple rules. Accounting, just at the point when technology
could make the process transparent, accounts in a manner of
obfuscation We are all being told our countries should be innovative,
competitive, thrusting, vibrant (endless list) to be better than all
others in "free trade". The spreadsheet could start instead with
world-wide standards on wages and conditions. Rigs may rightly say
scientists haven't fixed us but no doubt doesn't have dreams about
moving as a four-dimensional space shifting in two dimensions of
time. Is the experiment of decent living standards for all and an
economics that adjusts to that beyond us rigs? We can simulate -
which is what spreadsheets and databases are about. From my practical
experience I'd expect bunches of men with guns to be an early problem,
along with black-baggers and on to the megalomaniac paranoid
narcissist versions of that North Korean prat in our own systems.
With mosquito nets to give away in Africa the first problem was
stopping black bandits stealing them - or so I thought until I found
my own team had cornered a black market in them. Further up the tree
you find the bribes, tenders accepted at "cost plus" and suspect the
kickbacks reach white pockets. We can stop this kind of thing and
choose not to. Those who learn science come to realise most people
don't have the courage for it - but not quite what this implies about
social organisation and the role of terror in it. Unemployment is
such a terror for some they commit suicide. Suicide is almost a way
of life for Indian farmers (250,000 in the last ten years or so).
What has WW3 meant for the women of Congo? Economics and politics
should be a war against terror. They ain't and rely on its
continuance.

On 25 Ap -r, 11:33, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Make power relations visible from the beginning on, is what I suggest. And
> start with positioning yourself in whatever frame that is under discussion.
> Educated voters do not pop up by flipping the age switch. Sending kids out
> at the age of 14 to have them experience how power relations also work
> outside family and school is an easy way of keeping my hands clean. - A re
> view from/at the grassroots.
>

> 2013/4/24 rigs <rigs...@gmail.com>

[archytas]

In short we are living in the past.

[rigs]

Not me- I don't romanticize it.

I wonder how many feel some shame and responsibility for the sweat-
shop-fire-traps of Bangladesh and other third world countries when
they buy their bargains at Primark, Walmart, Target, and perhaps many
private labels?

It's also been said that Jenny Jerome's father was Jewish. Read a
maybe two volume biography. Think I have mentioned her fatal tumble
down a flight of stairs when her new heel broke and younger husbands,
etc. Quite a dash-about, she was.

Our soldiers are also committing suicide at an alaming rate.

Your sports are sometimes like a dance- it depends. Dance and drama
may have started with men who seem to go on ad nauseum- more so than
women, who have other flaws and faults.

Am recovering nicely after convincing my eye dr. how to medicate
me. :-) Why should I take as many pills as a bruiser 6'+ weighing 200+
when I am 5'3" and 120? Doesn't make sense. The snows have melted-
warm this weekend. Hooray! Thanks again to all for your good wishes.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[archytas]

Winter is flickering out here, more slowly in the North. Strange
yellow object seen in sky etc. Cold and windy today walking Maxwell.
An old guy watching us said I'd finally invented the Labrador non-
retriever. I said I'd specially trained Max to leave his ball to
encourage me to walk further. Good to hear you are getting better
rigs. Better get your tooth fixed before Gabby flies over with her
dentists' drill and acupuncture anesthetics kit!! Though maybe not -
the Germans are repatriating their gold.

Thatcher is famed here in the UK for stopping our children's free
milk. Actually, she was responsible for much greater cruelty in
preventing milk-aid to Vietnam. Looking through lists of PMs and
Presidents I'm not sure I can say any of them did anything better than
stepping down. I think we might be better off with leadership by open
examination and lot. My experience with it was always to hope it was
occupied somewhere else and that when I actually needed decision
support it was on holiday after sending pre-denial messages buried
three levels down in my emails. I always found getting welders to
work in the rain so a few hundred shipyard workers standing idle could
get on with work that couldn't start before the welders finished a
fair test of leadership. It taught you to project manage better so it
never happened again!

Grass needs cutting. Max hasn't met the mower yet! I wonder what
crosses the Pond? Thatcher is pretty reviled here, but we're still a
soft touch on Obama.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Allan H]

flower gardens are much better you do not have to mow them.

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[rigs]

True. You just have to mulch them, weed them, feed and water them,
deadhead them, cut back, etc. while fending off bees and mosquitos!
What a deal!

[rigs]

It's really spring today- opened windows! Be patient...//Yes- I will
be lucky if the morticians don't yank out my teeth! Will see the
dentist soon. Too bad I can't fix it myself with superglue or one of
your welders. :-)//Was not very political so the only milk scandal I
heard of was with Nestle vs breast feeding. It was a strange time- I
do remember Reagan decided Ketchup was a vegetable. I am grateful to
have taken food and nutrition seriously as I think it heals- along
with rest- just as powerfully as medicine- sometimes, of course. But
then I grew up when food was more trustworthy and family friends owned
restaurants and nightclubs so I got off to a pretty sophisticated
start---maybe even in utero! Why else would my mother advise champagne
and raw celery to cure morning sickness?//Had a story bloom in my head
about ancient hunters lugging back their giraffe or wildebeast- if
they weren't lost forever- and re-enacting their victory for the tribe
as the start of dance and theater. And heaven knows, a professional
athlete never tires of his career- at least that's been my experience-
plus it's the male who has recounted most of human history- tells
better jokes- etc. etc. etc...

[Allan H]

mosquitoes what are those??   they are an american plague  think  not may over here and the fish and frogs eat them before they become a problem..  I may be allergic to bee but we have an agreement I provide them with flowers and they leave me alone..  love the bumble bees  yes they are a breed and butterflies and dragonflies  native hedge hogs..  the list goes on  birds galore  can not figure out why anyone wants a grass garden,,  they are so boring  and you have to mow them week after week..... after week..

I only weed occasionally  and my dogs running though it more or less keep the weed under control..

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