Ignorance

[Hope Sunshine]

Hello my fellow sunshiners,

how is everyone doing today? Giving the best you can? Great! :-)

Let's if we can push it a little further and take a closer look at the argument that ignoring the unwanted is a viable strategy in surviving in systems that depend on the existence of bullies.

How much con you identify with seeing yourself placed in such a system? Which role would you like to take there? Where to can the ignored "stuff" escape?

Any suggestions?

Speak up as not to be spoken for, my fellow sunshiners. :-)

[Hope Sunshine]

Oh come on. What do think about the power of ignorance? How helpful is it? Who does it empower? Who does it weaken? Which power system do we want?

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"as well as" = "equals"

Take a stand against sexism, racism and other forms of structural violence!

[archytas]

With you around Sunshire we shall soon not need the Sun.  Isn't your sig line a little discriminatory against mute people?

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 12:39:17 PM UTC, Hope Sunshine wrote:

Oh come on. What do think about the power of ignorance? How helpful is it? Who does it empower? Who does it weaken? Which power system do we want?

2015-03-12 12:01 GMT+01:00 Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>:

Hello my fellow sunshiners,

how is everyone doing today? Giving the best you can? Great! :-)

Let's if we can push it a little further and take a closer look at the argument that ignoring the unwanted is a viable strategy in surviving in systems that depend on the existence of bullies.

How much con you identify with seeing yourself placed in such a system? Which role would you like to take there? Where to can the ignored "stuff" escape?

Any suggestions?

Speak up as not to be spoken for, my fellow sunshiners. :-)

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[facilitator]

Ignorance is bliss.

Willful ignorance has the destructive power of a supernova.

[archytas]

I am working on an ignorance tap to compress space.  I was going to call the new machine Gabby, but some dorky broad in Berlin has taken the hope out of that with some sunshine scam.

[Hope Sunshine]

My sigline is not accessible for everyone, yes. What do you wish I should change that it doesn't discriminate mute people? Maybe just a quick fix is needed?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

What are you using for an email program?


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[Hope Sunshine]

The gap between the two sentences seems strikingly huge. I see you contrast "innocent" ignorance with "willful" ignorance and thereby suggest that intentionality is the key factor in deciding whether ignorance is to be seen as positive or negative. Did I get that halfway right and if so, is there no "intermediate" state of ignorance observable? And what does that mean for our system here?

2015-03-12 15:28 GMT+01:00 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>:

Ignorance is bliss.

Willful ignorance has the destructive power of a supernova.

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[Hope Sunshine]

I am using Gmail.

[allan...@gmail.com]

The realm of Tony

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Ignorance

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Which OS

[allan...@gmail.com]

Watch out Andrew will go nuts because the topic drifted.. lol

[Hope Sunshine]

I am using it on different devices with different OS.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Okay which one is your primary computer.. i don't care if it is your mobile

[Hope Sunshine]

Does that give you pleasure to see others go nuts? Is that why you deliberately did not stay on topic, but gave it a "drift"? Do you like to "punish" people a little bit for wanting to stay on topic?

[Hope Sunshine]

I see you cannot help me. Thanks for trying anyway.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Not really. I just noticed it was not an appropriate topic according to andrew every once in a while he pops in complaining..  i am just trying to help you get your Sigline sorted..  need to know what operating system you are using..

It is kind of bugging me which OS you are using.. i have never had any problems with the sigline in the especially with gmail..

[allan...@gmail.com]

Okay..i probably have the same OS laying around and could look and see where the problem is. If i don't have it Hans does. If you don't want help that's okay.

[Hope Sunshine]

If you really want to do something for me, you could make a screenshot of your signature area in the gmail settings. 

You could send it to me via personal mail.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Stand alone or which browser.. i don't think you are using mail droid.

[Hope Sunshine]

I have made different observations concerning your behavior of deliberately making selected others go nuts. I see it as bullying, which leads us back to the topic of this thread. What needs to be done that you could stop this behavior?

[Hope Sunshine]

If you cannot give me what I would need than this is not a problem. Please stop asking any further questions concerning this issue. 

[allan...@gmail.com]

I will get very blunt with you Hope..  you are not a monitor,, and this is not your private dictatorship, you do not dictate behavior..
I feel no obligation to conform to your desires..  it is awful strange that you showed up exactly as Gabby disappeared.. you have exactly the same personality traits to the "T"  and till you prove differently .. sorry..

[Hope Sunshine]

I speak up here to raise awareness for the bullying practice and the ignorance accompanying it. It is not healthy for anyone in this system therefore I want this discourse.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

No Donna you are the bully and you are practicing being a bully..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 11:01 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Ignorance

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[archytas]

This is how she gets her kicks Allan - she's probably an adolescent with overactive Palm Sisters using a picture of her mother to confuse old men.  You should move on.  The Hope-Donna ruse is about as original as the joker is Jeux Sans Frontiers.  I dropped you the clues after her first Sunshine post.  I don't actually know Sherlock Holmes, though I can tell you the stories are those of a dire amateur.  Holmes couldn't investigate the skin off a rice pudding.  tGabby plays pin cushion games, scared of intimacy, even of our old fart comradeship and at electronic distance.  She might have been one hell of a detective.  She never lets her teeth loose and I am still guilty I did.  She knows and exploits.  She is into your arse like a set of laughing policeman teeth.

In other circumstances I would put you both back on moderation.  I'm really a simple soul Allan and hung around to give you some company - the return isn't bad either mate.  We probably shared our last rations and water in some rat hole long ago.  Gabby couldn't keep Hopeless Sunshine Surf's Up girlie long, though I had hoped for a week trolling Berlin's tenderloin to 'save her' while I did some participant observation - I find these areas disgusting and a good excuse to drink.  Despite her Gemini claims, Gabbsie has little flair.  It is our duty to love her and try to help her through spite.  We both know she has been Screwtaping us. I have tried to guide her (whatever) through to some genuine and more self-depreciating humour, at some considerable cost in personal time.  There are limits.  Much as it is obvious she has been deeply hurt, one can't go on relating to everyone from the paranoid-schizoid position.  She is at least honest about this and her crisis of faith behind partial linguistic expertise.  Pol may be Gabby too, though she hits some real points.

I would have really enjoyed a chance to discuss Molly's mystics (her writing is well worth a look at) in the context of a science part of spiritual growth - she is not at all simplistic and would be the kind of grad student like Francis one could work with on an adult to adult basis, knowing they were shifting one's own learning (or Chris, if the beer costs would be higher). Tony might be the guy that taught us all our blather could be reduced to an A4 drawing, whilst wrestling with my dogs.  Andrew has always been smart enough to know something might be more interesting than his original attempts, but you bark too soon.  Rigsy says she doesn't come (other than to look) because the system doesn't work - she is frankly bloody wonderful and amazingly erudite without being an upper-class cow.

Tony can destroy an argument with a one-liner - you sometimes manage that Allan - though often it looks like you are texting riding your bike and should let Joey do the growling direct.  Max would understand.  Molly isn't  holy and shaking hands with her husband he'd know I didn't think so, was saying 'you lucky bastard' and appreciate I see and respect things as they are (sorry Moll - he'd like Sue too and really appreciate why we are still together after her cancer).  Molly has a version of Christianity free of much rubbish - much like Francis (and our holy 'Hindu Allan, who is almost pathetically Christian like me).  Molly is almost dreadfully American!  I love what I see - but was always a sucker for Irish girls Moll.  I've only read the bits of her books available free on Amazon.  I will buy a couple.  I'm sure her husband would laugh if I told him it was just for the photograph!

People prepared to put their view forward need critical and nurturing reception.  Much as I have taken part in trying to encourage Allan and Gabby they have bored us to death.  I apologise  to all for my tolerance  - I tried to do it to give all a giggle.  They are bores in this form, and lack the manners to be concerned with how they chase others away.  Molly actually writes from a deeper tolerance than I have previously been able to imagine.  She puts up imagination and all we get is you two don't have any. Why wold anyone put up more, with all the effort involved, to listen to you arses chat loudly at the back of the room?

RP?  If you've got this far my friend, I've had enough of their white racism alleged diversity.  Molly writes a from of Christianity that isn't 'Crusader'.  You are amazingly capable of forgiveness they don't understand either, without losing edge on what happen in a history neither of us would have written.  You and I might start a conversation on your unconscious god without outcomes before we started talking.  They don't get it.  It;s time to refer them to social service and move on.

 .  

[allan...@gmail.com]

Am done with Donna.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 13 Mar 2015 3:00 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Ignorance

--

[Hope Sunshine]

Have you ever considered this could be a soul test?

 

Is it really your soul telling you to disrespect the people who have done you no harm?

Or is it the fear of loosing your friend Neil that is responding here?

Learn to let your soul speak up - is the quest that I believe has led you here. 

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Are you sure you have done no harm?

[Molly]

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

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[Molly]

The joy of completion

[Hope Sunshine]

Hahaha, give the machines time until they have worked that out .... 

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[archytas]

Gabby knows where Hoppy's off plug is.

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[Hope Sunshine]

I am here to speak out against bullying systems and their ignorance dependency. See my thread opening for the detailed questions. 

Why do you not enter a meaningful discourse and have a little fun? Why do you keep on threatening people, intimidating people? Where is your constructive contribution to the ignorance topic?

Do us a favor and mind your own business. Self-empowerment does not come at the price of stealing power from the other. 

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[archytas]

Jawohl.

[Hope Sunshine]

The amount of hate pumped into the system to compensate for the loss of Gabby and to keep Al on the right track  to keep the equibalance of the algorithm was heavy. In a world of dog owners they keep you in a black box undecided of how to categorize you. With no one in the outside world to speak out for you, you are more dead than if the lid of the box had been opened. Come on good people, I know you exist. Someone speak out for me to overcome the ignorance!

Jawohl.

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[archytas]

Could even the great and to be lamented after forgetting Gabbo (for we soon forget spellings of the great) herself have penned such twisted Twirly with scientific redolence from Pointland?  With Shroder's sister's cat out of the bag, she remembers boxes have lids, in measurement prose.  Peanuts had Lucy and the ginger girl, and we must now do peanut conversation with the overcoming of Hope. In 'No Exit' it is soon clear that Inès is attracted to Estelle, Estelle is attracted to Joseph, and Joseph is in no mood for sexual behavior, in their little room in Hell.  This bleaker play, about a woman who pines for people to talk to, having murdered her Gemini twin and insulted everyone else in projections from dark space, interpreted by a Nether Land Zombie created from her own poisonous Plasticine, has the benefit of being cheap to put on as a one woman show.  The audience has long departed after being forced to sit on the mousetraps they thought they had paid to watch.  One soul loiters, waiting for the Zombie to walk out and win its bet with Ladbrokes on the effects of yellow peril wordsmithing on feet of clay.

[allan...@gmail.com]

BINGO!

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Sat, 14 Mar 2015 8:16 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Ignorance

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[archytas]

The more refined shout is HOUSE!

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[allan...@gmail.com]

What can I say  I am just not refined..

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[archytas]

Refined sugar isn't good for us or as tasty as rough molasses.  

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Hmm  with pancakes,three egg and a large side of bacon .. please.

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[archytas]

Waiting for you now Allan, though I'll snack it myself if it looks like going cold.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Okay.. now i know what is for my breakfast in the morning. Need to get some more stroop (molasses )we are almost out  have plenty of bacon..  hmm another decision avoided.. dank u Neil

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[archytas]

We machines have to stick together AI.  I have an excess of gingerbread and stroop after the demise of the wicked witch when she 'fell' into her oven.  Seems a shame to waste it, though I'll have it tested first as the tins are marked 'Stroppy'.

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[andrew vecsey]

Your very interesting question has been ignored by all "thinkers" in this group of thinkers, except for facilitator who points out the difference between "ignoring" and "ignorance".
As to your question of where the "unwanted that is ignored" go? For those who successfully ignore it, it shouldn`t matter. It seeks attention elsewhere by changing its form. This can be done by various ways or combinations of ways such as:

1. Changing its name to a new name, AKA "hiding behind a new ID", or "showing weakness",
2. Derailing the topic AKA "going off topic" or "showing ignorance".
3. Making fun of it,AKA "showing arrogance".
4. Using shallow and meaningless words that can not be understood and normally assumed to be "deep",  AKA "being a hypocrite". 

[Hope Sunshine]

Hello and thank you for entering this multilogue here Andrew! Unfortunately I cannot make any real connections to what you are saying here, all I see is blind allegations. But maybe the others will be able to make their rhyme on it. Cheers anyways. 

[Molly]

That your enumerated actions point out ignorance, Andrew, I am assuming that you mean that the actor was not aware that these actions create alienation, a kind of self isolating campaign on the part of the actor. It should come as no surprise then, that the actor cannot understand the correlation between the actions and the isolation, falling back on the source of the ignorance and old patterns of blaming others. In a case such as this, a person would not be capable (and we should not presume to know the reasons) of understanding the relation of the actions listed below to group dynamic - the very definition of "ignorance" or not knowing.

Ignored is a very different matter.  Peer pressure is a very powerful mirror of the effects of our own behavior and relatedness to groups. Sometimes, the most compassionate thing for a group to do is give a member the space needed to discover what they cannot understand or know, with reminders such as yours, or a silence that allows other members of the group to give it their best shot. In these cases, what may appear to be ignoring, is actually allowing the process to unfold and the group to nurture and support.

Very reasonable post, Andrew and assessment of the group dynamic here as it relates to acting out and puppet identities.

All of us struggle with the group dynamic here, communicating our ideas and relating to each other. The group is global, multi-lingual and each of us with our own personalities, strengths and flaws. None is an exception. The fact that the group has peaks and valleys of coherent dialogue should come as no surprise, given the platform, longevity and participant make-up of the group. The mystery of this particular group's survival and value keeps us coming back and may be more of a feeling than a knowing. Something happens here.

My hope, Gabby, is that you are on the brink of a personal break-through that allows you to communicate in ways that the other group members can understand, and that contributes to the dialogue in productive ways.  I've seen you so it over the years, and keep the "hope" in my heart that you find your way back from the self imposed separation now occurring. I see the group making the heroic effort not only to tell you in many different ways, the effects of your behavior, but allow you the space to figure it out.

[Hope Sunshine]

A rhyme too good not to chime.... in .... sorry Molly, I did not expect you to respond directly to my original posting, in which I picked up facilitators input from the Bully thread and transferred it to: "ignoring the unwanted is a viable strategy in surviving in systems that depend on the existence of bullies". What does your thread contribution tell me then? That the power holders depend on imagined and preferably unrelated stuff to secure their power position? That only threatens those I want to encourage to speak up and to speak out for me. 

The ignorant are a bliss to those in power ignoring and bullying all those not supporting their quasi dictatorship.

Please people, wake up. No right to remain ignorant without the right to vote for an alternative!

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[archytas]

Hope Sunshine was a witty creation with just the right colours and vapidity of a valley girl.  I was swooned instantly as Gabby knew would be the case, knowing my base depths so well, though not her own and the consequences of losing me to Sunshine forever.  One might wonder how many other modules of multiple personality disorder have been generated over the years, though 'bag of words' analysis has Gabby in Hope almost from outset.  'Bag of words' is already creeping into to detective fiction and had a mention on Person of Interest.  I am always fascinated by people who think they know what is one and off topic.  I am far more likely to judge the dull myself and the inertial violence.  Imagine how different Molly's words would seem if they were uttered as she strutted round an Inquisition torture chamber, to get something of inertial context.

It is hard to know what people really think in our deceptive society.  Look how Andrew's inverted commas change the term thinkers to 'thinkers'.  Converting Gabby to a 'good girl' has a rather nice ring to it, rather as adding another good dog or cat to our family here is always tempting, until we realise the real joy of stubborn Max, Zak and Commander Cat.  Not that Gabby is a dog and it would surely be too rude to use Andrew's inverted commas on the word.

The thinker is always stuck between the impossibility of telling the truth to power and the frustrations of appeal to public ignorance.  Think of these two jokes:

1. Imagination is easy.  Just ask someone without one.

2. Economists suffer from 'physics envy'.

I guess most people currently in here get the jokes, though they may not tickle everyone quite as much as Tony, himself a better lunch date than Rachel Welsh, appealing to the essential Scotsman here by offering to pay.  I can almost guarantee more than half our population would not get these now three jokes without substantial explanation.

There have been times when people in here have tried to develop ideas.  Less often they have been received in that spirit of development.  One might see Gabby as a troll, flamer or flooder, and sometimes there is little in the group other than a flood exchange between me and Allan.  I prefer to think she is a smart cookie somewhere between Alice and Irene Adler, a loving mother and like an old friend who had some trauma concerning needles and eyes.  

Ignorance may not be absence of knowledge Molly - one only has to think of Bacon's Idols, perhaps especially of the Theatre (of highly scholastic traps).  I only mention Idols as Gabby hates them so much, knowing as she does something better, in that sense of having pearls she will never cast in front of we swine.  In standard bot response, we should now expect a rejection of the hand of friendship.  Sue, who according to Gabby must be another of my kidnap victims, thinks decent aliens observing human society, would first ponder on all the hostility and deception.

I have tended to see this group (and a wider internet analysis) as an example of difficulties in rational public scrutiny and our inability with argument.  Our ignorance has devastating consequences and on the basis of a brilliant joke from Magic Roundabout, wonder how we have been taught to be ignorant.

Dougal (pretentious dog who jumps out of trees as states 'the thermals are tricky today when he falls to earth):  "How can anyone be so stupid"?

Brian (working class snail assumed dumb by Dougal).  "It takes a lot of practice"

We might thus think "ignorance takes a lot of education", something known at least 400 years ago in the archive Gabby would banish, perhaps.  Time to let the dogs run free here, by a journey on leads to protect them from their traffic ignorance and from chasing the much tougher local cats.

[Hope Sunshine]

Too many poppy field visits make you fly too high. Old educators knew the right dose. 

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[andrew vecsey]

I was just responding to your question. I will try to explain. Let`s say that you are "bullied" by me and ignore me for it. As I understood your question, you were pondering what happens next. How do I respond to that. One way or ways I might respond is to change your ignoring me to trying to make you look or feel ignorant. How can I do that? I give 4 possible scenarios.

1. I could continue to bully you anonymously or to make you think that I am not the only one who is bullying you by bullying you in the name of another name.
2. I could try to derail you or your line of thought hoping you will feel confused and frustrated and weakened.
   
3. I could make it all into a joke belittling you and making fun of you
   
4. I could combine the 3 ways above by using something that people  consider very "deep with meaning" but is actually meaningless. For example I could refer your reaction to a well known work of art by Picasso that many claim has deep underlying genius, or say something like "Does a falling tree make a sound when there is no one to hear it?"  leaving you hopefully a bit confused.
   

As far as hearing in my reply "blind allegations", your hearing is right on. That is the reply to your other question pondering how we the members identify ourselves with in such a situation. My allegation is that we all use these ways to turn being ignored into ignorance. And that sometimes we are blind and do not see that when we try to make someone else look or feel ignorant, we are also showing our own ignorance. I claim that disrespect, arrogance, and hypocrisy are all faces of ignorance.

[archytas]

300 detentions in one day at a reforming school here, for such as uniform infractions.  Ja, ja, old hen?  (old hen being a Scottish term of endearment without gender connotation), often contracted to hinny, which is some kind of mule cross though not meant).

Wake up people!  Gosh.  That has me thinking.  And threatening them with removal of the vote!  Gosh, gosh!  What have we here, what rough beast stirs?  The vote has already upped and gone, replaced by one-party neo-liberalism and the presstitute newsroom.  Ideas would be good, preferably not involving a quasi-religious sect bowing to Gabby-drummer slogans sung like lullabies by a mini-skirted surfer yet to realise California went bust, to keep the sheeple under Chapter 6 rules, to wake up at war.  The German drug of choice for war was not from poppies but crystal meth as Pervertin.  This wakes people up for a while, before then end up twitching.

So what waking remedies do you have?  Other than droning on about others' failings?  I would really like to know, a statement I'm sure will feed to the general revenge-bliss you must get in letting others down.  Providing hope in order to crush it is a well-known torture technique.  I thought you knew better, though there is little innocence in your ignorance.

There is skilled incompetence.  Maybe work some of that out with us?

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[archytas]

There a probably more scenarios Andrew.

[Hope Sunshine]

Well, I thought I had asked people to take a closer look at what I had described as a strategic system of ignorance and its reliance on bullies, which is why I find it "natural" that those in power automatically switch on their various derailing mechanisms to stay in power. I suggest we use trigger warnings in the future.

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[Molly]

Revolution might not be one of them.

[archytas]

'Smart Coolie learn good', as we might once have heard in a patronising western.

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[archytas]

Good thinking in there Andrew.  The eventual morality is not good for free speech.  It is possible to put aside manners and question what role they play in ignorance and bullying.  I assume this is part of Gabby's frame of underlying violence.  Trust is involved in this, assuming others aren't the sort to really lurk in shadows with an ice pick of revenge.  There have been many polite societies living in the comfort of manners, etiquette and politesse on the backs of slaves - all really full of arrogance, disrespect and hypocrisy concealed in "learning".  The violence of society civilised by manners has been explored (Norbert Elias).  There's a rather wonderful film - 'Burke and Hare' - that links the body-snatchers to Darwin and stresses hypocrisy.  There's a brilliantly funny sex scene in it, lamentably unusual.

I don't really know what Gabby's frame is, though she has been courteous to say I still come out to play..As a kid I was dragged along to play with various cousins I had nothing in common with and some poor sod who was locked in his room to learn piano two hours a day - and would have been his punching bag if not too quick on my feet.  It's hard to know where the therapy line is drawn.

There are many frames of interpretation.  Gabby may even have been instructing us on various roles and our lack of imagination, perhaps even of the stubbornness of people who will speak in front of others.  Most people are chronically petty and insular to their own world view - at least as evidenced in our literature and whatever the internet is.  The tree falls silently in a beige universe, whose signals we turn into a virtual cognition (though there is one-way creation in this interpretation).  Such pennies rarely drop in our education system.

We talk framed by context - even the idea of 'staying on thread' is a frame of violence, given we often solve difficult problems from left field and new frames.  In academic staff meetings, one frame is making sure you leave the room with nothing to do, and put students into groups and you 'find' (already know) they will just discover how pointless other people are other than to their own idle yet libidinous plan.  The phrase 'work out what you want to do' instigates panic they run away from.  The better kids soon desert the others.

One can guess the frame of another and play its games in an attempt to understand them.  What do you do with someone who doesn't know of the beige universe, its silent falling trees and on to quasars spinning at a quarter of the speed of light?  And those kids who can't or won't listen to this other, turning everything to the soggy mediocrity of their own comfort?  Including the teacher who tells the kids all sorts of 'comforting' (to her) stuff about the education they can't do in later life?  Gabby hits some nails, though I think some of them get bent and need to be taken out and straightened to better explanation.

Feedback that Bitcoin is boring, old hat and so on, is rather like the falling tree - the argument should lead to recognition of how conventional money is and how we might change it.  This is a tough ask here, when less than 10% of our MPs know nearly all money is created by private banks - though one suspects the real problem is not just ignorance but an unwillingness to give to the argument of another.  Gabby's Hope Sunshine was at least a very clever attempt at non-verbal conversation in text production.  I rather admire the woman - but don't tell her ...

 

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 5:54:52 PM UTC, andrew vecsey wrote:

[archytas]

Perhaps the most spectacular development in recent history has been the truly amazing rise of the importance of science, and the effect it is having on every facet of human life. No less amazing, particularly to the scientist, is the equally spectacular lack of understanding of the scientific endeavor which the non-scientist not only exhibits but seems to revel in. 

A present-day educated man would be disdainfully scornful of anyone who knew nothing of the writings of Dante or Homer, the paintings of EI Greco or Renoir, or the music of Telemann or Verdi. Yet, this same man is heard to brag that he never could pass elementary physics and that high-school biology made him sick at his stomach. 

The intellectual of the future not only will know something of science but will be so attuned to its intellectual discipline that he can use its relevant teachings to make progress in his own field of learning. We are gathered together here not to look backward or even at the present but forward to the future to try to plot a course for theology in the modern idiom—to search for the relevancy of all aspects of the modern world to the highest aspirations and goals toward which men strive. 

Specifically what I want to address my remarks to is the thesis that theologians have much to learn from the methodology and intellectual discipline of the scientist. In my opinion a knowledge of the intellectual procedures in common use by a research physicist in his search for the organization of the universe is far from irrelevant in developing a modern epistemology for theology. …

Of course, most people are happy to learn as little as possible to get by (ignorance).  The above is from a 1966 issue of Zygon, a journal on science and religion - http://www.zygonjournal.org/index.htm - you can look at the odd article and abstracts there, though sadly the journal itself is very expensive.

Today's ecological, technological, and social world presents a very different context than that of the original audience of Genesis. To “fill the earth and subdue it” were not the immanent possibilities and problems they are today. On the other hand, the creaturely environment in and through which humanity has emerged to bear the image of God continues to present limits and challenges to promoting wholesomeness. Bearing the image and likeness of the creator depicted in Genesis means striving to meet each new challenge with creativity and compassion. In Ancient Near Eastern contexts these challenges arose in part from a frustrating inability for humankind to influence and control its natural and social environments. In contemporary contexts, especially in developed nations, these challenges arise from an apparent inability for humanity to curb its detrimental influence and control over its natural and social environments.

1.

The cosmology of Genesis 1, along with its mention of the image of God, is very likely a polemical ideological critique of the Babylonian cosmology depicted in EE, in which the god Marduk ascends to power through military and political conquest 

 After becoming chief among the gods, Marduk creates the heavens and earth by killing and mutilating the body of Tiamat, the goddess representing the chaos of the deep salt seas. He and his ally Ea create human beings from the blood of Tiamat's consort, Qingu, as a means of punishing this rival and for the purpose of conscripting creatures who toil in order to provide the gods with sustenance and occasion to rest.

2.

The order and means of creation and the purposes of created entities are similar in Genesis and EE. Both Marduk and Elohim create through fiat and separating—light from dark, waters from waters, heavens from the Earth, and water from land. Heavenly luminaries also bear similar functions in each account. Both cosmologies define the role of the sun, moon, and stars in marking the passage of days and seasons. However, since the ancient Israelites do not involve heavenly bodies in worship, the luminaries are given a lower status—they “serve” not as divine sources of light but as carriers of light to govern the day and night.. Further, Elohim does not create by separating the body parts of dead deities. The forces of chaos, Marduk must overcome in order to create, are utterly depersonified in the Genesis cosmology. The goddess Tiamat is almost unrecognizable as the tehom—the deep sea—over which the breath (ruach) of God so effortlessly hovers. By contrast, Marduk must breathe or otherwise conjure a great wind to disturb the insides of Tiamat, affording him the opportunity to kill her, and only then to create. Yahweh Elohim is not a mere replacement of Marduk. The Israelites’ God has no personal rivals, and whatever semblance of primordial chaos can be found in Genesis 1, it is brushed aside by the constitutive utterance, “Let there be…” In Genesis created reality and its purposes come about through acts of divine freedom and generosity, rather than retribution and necessity. Yahweh Elohim empowers the creation to “bring forth” what it will and sees “that it was good.” Creation in the Hebrew Bible is an act of liberation rather than subjugation.

3.

Finally, both cosmologies call for political and ethical mimesis . With EE the move from myth to ritual and politics is more straightforward than with the Genesis cosmology. Imperial conquest, such as that of the Southern Kingdom of Judah ca. 587–538 BCE, is a reenactment Marduk's rise to power over the forces of chaos. Captive peoples then provide the labor force on which Babylonian society and its elite depended. In the drama surrounding the annual New Year's festival (Akitu), the Babylonian king stood in as Marduk, a representation or “image” of this god on earth, set there to implement divine purposes.  I really hate the rationalisation of slavery.

Against this conceptual backdrop, it would appear that in the Genesis cosmology the royal image concept is democratized. It still bears a functional purpose, but in very different ways. In the midst of being “subdued” and “ruled over” in captivity, the Israelites are called in hope against hope to bear the image and likeness of God, as they “fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over” its creatures, while deriving sustenance from its plant life . Yahweh Elohim is able to rest after creating humankind, but not due to the fruits of human labor (Genesis 2:3). Rather, this creator calls humankind to take part in this Sabbath rest, as Exodus 20:8–11 records. More than a despotic ruler, royal statue, or a mute idol, all humankind bears an “image” of God that is a “likeness” unto divine agency.

What is ignorance when one can leave the average Christian in the dust on their own?  Francis will know loads more than me on this kind of stuff.  I was distracted learning biochemistry.  What is ignorance?  

[archytas]

Biocultural evolution refers to (1) the emergence, within the physical realm, of biological processes of evolution that themselves generate the phenomenon of culture; and (2) to the distinctive, non-Darwinian, dynamic processes by which culture proceeds, while at the same time existing in a relationship of symbiosis with the physical-biological processes in which it emerged and in which it continues to operate.

If bearing the image of God means exercising creativity in ways that share power and produce good, the development and use of technologies that systematically exclude individuals or groups from access to them and their benefits will surely entail the added cost of further marginalizing and oppressing those unable to embody (or flourish alongside) novel versions of humanity that become de factonormative. Additionally, the collateral damage of “progress” in the forms of environmental degradation, the negative ecological and socioeconomic effects of anthropogenic climate change, and the irreversible loss of biodiversity are incompatible with the conceptions of creator and created co-creation constructed above. These affronts to human dignity and ecological integrity are creation through violence. Therefore, these antitheses to wholesomeness cannot reside within the semantic range or hermeneutical trajectory of the command to “be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over” its creatures.

As created co-creators with an eye to the future, Homo sapiens have come to realize that in part, the human condition means not having to settle for its givenness. Theologian and biochemist Arthur Peacocke observes that “we are capable of forms of happiness and misery quite unknown to other creatures, thereby evidencing a ‘dis-ease’ with our evolved state, a lack of fit which calls for explanation and, if possible, cure”  As products of Homo sapiens’ ethically ambivalent biocultural nature, whatever “cures” we create are true pharmakoi—potentially both poison and remedy. We could direct our human future toward the latter.

So what is ignorance when one can put up questions on deep green and no Christians know their own analysis?  Is ignorance something essential to faith?  What is it we do when we squabble rather than read, think and share?  Is it worth knowing anything in order to be received as a smart-arse or holy?  What causes human silencing?  Once one knows how can one speak without revealing others' ignorance and various reactions to keep their own ignorance intact, silenced and politely, manneredly, violently quieted?  Speak up Gabby - you know, in that way you say as little as possible, requiring others to define terms and do the work for you.  How about a theatre of the oppressed?  You have enough actors to put one a one-girl Gemini show.  I like the honesty in your deceit.

[archytas]

I suppose a philosophy that includes ignorance is not known here either.

Science and religion are very different types of human practices. Science is about understanding human and nonhuman nature without invoking God, and religion is about relating to God. One can explore what scientific and religious practices can have in common, when viewed from the perspective of the American philosopher William James (1842–1910). I am specifically interested here in the roles of emotion and the metaphysics of experience in characterizing both types of practices. How do emotion and the metaphysics of experience—and corresponding intimations of the sacred—relate to the irreducible uncertainty and ignorance that characterize both science and religion? And what does this imply for the relationship between uncertainty and God?

One cannot do this alone: On William James's view truth and the process of establishing it is social, . . . most basically because reality itself—including the knowers and the known, concepts and objects, and the true and the real—is social in the most fundamental and human senses. The sociality of pragmatism's understanding of truth takes a central position in James's radical empiricism.

Yet this social world is largely one of ignorance so severe few read or can stand breach of their parochial mentality, even give time for others.  What would ignorance be if you read this - http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/enhanced/doi/10.1111/zygo.12138/ - ?

What ignorance is involved in not reading?  Or considering those who don't ignorant?  Or only being able to read into others' exchanges what one might mean oneself in terms of one's own parochial, possibly patriarchal manners?

[Hope Sunshine]

Flooding the system with the kind of input that probably generates the the most desirable output and attracts the most worthy recipients is another strategy when looking at a power circuit. This is what I see demonstrated here.

With respect to ignorance and ignoring the unwanted, Neil's input is much better received than Andrew's offered material. I suspect this is so because Andrew's material in all its "wild" constructedness  far to often violates the "natural" law of personal eco-nomical value that the not to be ignored material has to have for the receiver.

Very well, people. Is there anything else you feel we need to bring up here to get a clearer picture of how ignorance functions and for what purpose?

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[Molly]

Ken Wilber made a life's work of applying the scientific method to theology here in the states and has a reasonable following, although I find something undefinable (for me) missing.

[allan...@gmail.com]

I do not really see science separated from beliefs. But that is also way I was raised.   Ignorance between science i think comes from a refusal to accept answers given because the answers given do not agree with answers the other party accepts.

There is another form of ignorance where people refuse to let go of a topic until they are right. The need to be in control and the authority regardless. 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

You are to grammar what the full stop is to ocean control Allan.  But then we have all been scarred by 'English teechers'.  You seem pretty grammar smart to me.  Gabby (sorry Hope I'm pretty loyal to my friends - the word typoed to fiends) is so grammar smart as to need reading a dozen times to not know what she means - this is why I believe she will be essential in running our bureaucracy.

Molly goes further than most operational definitions of brain imagination processes as does the link I posted.  Both may over-egg the pudding, but I can see no reason why presence has to be presence of I.  We often need to let go in comfort conversations Allan - yet the bulldog teeth have a role if we are trying something else.  There are issues as to whether one has a sparring partner or a punchbag.  Canute found (or demonstrated to taste) his grammar could not hold back the tides.

The Burke and Hare sex scene (I usually fast forward these) I mentioned is an imagination classic and couldn't even upset an old boredom prude like me.  It turns soppy notions of emotions on their head and builds to a brilliant climax at the end of the film.  The woman is entirely dangerous.  The idea is our most profound declarations can be imagined as nothing of the sort - and you get a good laugh.  Gabby might have written it in one of her other guises.  It's a bit like reading 'Holy Molly' and thinking of her watching Top Gear.

Imagination is linked to control and authority issues Allan.  Much in nature is actually subject to suppression (regressive genes etc - but also what happens in pack-herd societies like ours).  'Unlicensed brainwork' is often subject to inertial bullying.  We try, to some extent, to encourage discovery learning (would Molly's son have beaten us in tying her shoelaces together?) though this can be used as a ruse to get people to won their own learning by thinking they invented it.   It is difficult to do this once one knows most of what is likely to be said has already been said better.  The answers lie, such as they are, in critical nurture.  What I find is a 'can't do society' subject to many existential threats, formulated in politics and economics.

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[archytas]

The presence of ignorance and uncertainty gives some hope for the reconciliation and tolerance in knowing.  There is nearly always a flood of literature not known in specific dialogues.  We often re-invent square wheels when the round ones are in mass production (though other geometric shapes roll as well as round).  The unwanted is framed out by most framing - this is Quine's statement on three problems with empiricism.  Transparency as something we don't do much of is well-exampled in Hope's prose, much as I pine for Gabby as a now deferred origin in bundes Hope.

Ignorance appeals to other ignorance in various instances of 'let them eat cake'.  Manners are central to such ignorance.  Hope's rhetorical tricks look like a spur to grip false political claims (and other promises) to me, though may insult some who have become ignorant by forgetting Gabby has learned there are times just to listen to her son (how soppy I might say and not think).  The role of ignorance in fascism is something we should not be ignorant of, though seem to be on a daily basis. Is ignorance willful Hope?  Will you consider that in your synthesis to full machine linguistics of dynamic context and reception?  I like machines, I say, knowing this would spur Gabby to make the task human lest she do something I might approve and give another fleeting pleasure - a reception thingy, you know.

And what of the ignorant savant?  Is clever people's ability for credulous stupidity under your synthetic consideration?  Will you Wason Test the group to expose this ignorance and risk being unpopular as a flooder from the world of learning, in that non-ignorance that revenge will be ignorantly inflicted on someone exposing it in others?  I look forward to the truth in ignorance your researches must lead to.  I hope Hope will not find me patronising when I step in and prevent the lynch mob?  I have borrowed Allan's pellet gun just in case.  He may not approve my intent, but as Gabby used to say, there are some things to say no to.

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[archytas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0jWfoRWWJo&feature=iv&src_vid=LKrKJ1kC5Gk&annotation_id=annotation_493167

Just a spoiler in case Hope decides to dish Wason tests out.  Only 10% of people get logic.  I'm very slow.