Presence

[allan...@gmail.com]

Ben doing a lot of thinking about presence since it became a realization for me. oddly when I kind of need some escapism or just diversion I turn to the ' I Ching ' for something to think about.  Originally  it was a book today I have an electronic version.

I am still amazed at the spiritual insights written thousands of years ago..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

[archytas]

Tricky multi-meaning word.  One desires to be in the presence of god in an afterlife - making it a future term.  We use it instead of charisma - she has presence.  And there is a long history of philosophy of presence.  I take presence in a more general sense of what we are not aware we have placed outside our designs in our virtual appreciation.  The words get tough, but there is an 'unsensed' we can 'touch'.

[archytas]

In the religion I soaked up young, there was omnipresence - a bit like Prism or some of the ideas of More's Utopia or Bentham's panotican.  The presence of a surveillance form or parental 'governmentality when they are absent'.

But words don't seem to mean much and millions of them are wasted.

[archytas]

That is all true RP and fine if we are internalising the right stuff.  Philip Larkin's poem suggests this may not be true{

They fuck you up, your mum and dad.   

    They may not mean to, but they do.   

They fill you with the faults they had

    And add some extra, just for you.

But they were fucked up in their turn

    By fools in old-style hats and coats,   

Who half the time were soppy-stern

    And half at one another’s throats.

Man hands on misery to man.

    It deepens like a coastal shelf.

Get out as early as you can,

    And don’t have any kids yourself.

Western individualism takes little account of this cultural transmission. 

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:01:50 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

It is the presence of the better you, your superego which is always present, watching you all the time. It is the inner voice, developed in you through your infancy, childhood and adolescence , called conscience, a strong check in some and ignored in others.

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[Gabby]

It is the "presence of the better of you" that had Neil remind you of the "presence of the worse" also. Only when both sides are integrated, he would allow for "true". I conclude the true presence can be situated in the past, present, future and would match your definition of the One. Right?

[gabbydott]

Okay, let me try once more. Apart from the presence there is the superego and the baser drives that in one way or another serve the presence. The One is the frame within all this is bound to happen. Better now?

Am Mittwoch, 25. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Nope, the presence is the better you and the worse you, the superego is developed through the stages of your life whereas the worse you , the id , are your baser drives which continuously challenge you and corrupting your reason as well. The One is the source behind the universe which inexorably binds everyone so subtly that it is hard to understand.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is the "presence of the better of you" that had Neil remind you of the "presence of the worse" also. Only when both sides are integrated, he would allow for "true". I conclude the true presence can be situated in the past, present, future and would match your definition of the One. Right?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Good morning world,, omnipresence if I didn't  know better I would think it was  RP type word..  I has the same type of d&d.
One I think that is one of those  teachings though in reality it is actually true,,  the problem  develops in the threatening and controlling manner that is implied..
 
To me it seems many theologians are all about mudding the issue be insisting they have the only true and accurate understanding of what is said. Very closed minded in how ideas are viewed. There seems  to be a need to have an attitude of my God is greater than your God.

I think what I am always  searching for is how to have a closer harmonious interaction with the presence as I understand him. The I Ching is one resource I use when I need to make am important decision. I like reading the I Ching ( tossing the coins ) creates a randomness in thought.  Oddly I never

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

[allan...@gmail.com]

Where the heck do come up with the super ego?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Gabby, by your definition the One is the presence which is served by the superego and the id through the ego, the self-sense. It is the job of the self-sense to strive, so basically it is the 'I' which is manipulated even though it is responsible for all works. The self-sense is the 'I'.

[gabbydott]

Okay, the I is not the One. The One is the source behind and above time. The I is right in and therefore cannot qualify as One. No?

Am Mittwoch, 25. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Gabby, by your definition the One is the presence which is served by the superego and the id through the ego, the self-sense. It is the job of the self-sense to strive, so basically it is the 'I' which is manipulated even though it is responsible for all works. The self-sense is the 'I'.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 1:24 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[gabbydott]

Neil introduced the truth idea(l) to your thread, Allan. I don't think though he wants to mud your issue though.

And what's that oddly you never avoid murder, rape and enslavement of others?

[gabbydott]

I'm still curious to hear where you'd place your soul in this thread here...

[allan...@gmail.com]

I do not see the word never in my sigline Gabby. 

[allan...@gmail.com]

My soul is who I am.

[allan...@gmail.com]

My moral compass is just fine and working well..  Fortunately  I am not responsible for your interpretation of it..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 12:21 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

It is not the issue of God, But of 'I' and 'You'. I am greater than you, that sort of arrogance. I don't see where the moral compass has gone, maybe they were just words.

[polly skid]

In which area of delhi do you live RP? just curious..

On Feb 25, 2015 5:31 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Good morning world,, omnipresence if I didn't  know better I would think it was  RP type word.."

Allan, by uttering such words aren't you harming me, demeaning me and ridiculing me, where is your "do no harm" sig line? And where is your moral compass? You just talk, that is all, just empty words arising from arrogance and a superiority which is not there.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 2:27 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

It is neither belittling or demeaning..
You have a love for fancy words ..  omnipresence though i have heard it since early childhood reminds me of you..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 1:01 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

"Good morning world,, omnipresence if I didn't  know better I would think it was  RP type word.."

Allan, by uttering such words aren't you harming me, demeaning me and ridiculing me, where is your "do no harm" sig line? And where is your moral compass? You just talk, that is all, just empty words arising from arrogance and a superiority which is not there.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 2:27 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

Get real RP  all i said was you have a love of big words.. lol  when you came you had an unchanged view point which you tried to pass along using different words.
Over the years your view is beginning to expand.. makes for greater interest you still slide back but that's okay ..

You have to remember most of the time it is just a discussion.. and you are welcome to take any view point you choo.se

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

In other words I remind you of God, for omnipresent I am not! Come of it Allan, it seems you hold me in competition and that is the reason you have been attacking me of and on for the last few years. If my views are different from you that is no cause of getting riled, unless you are a fundamentalist and cannot tolerate people who think differently. We have lot of people here in India who go around teaching dressing sense to young girls because they feel that they are saving Indian culture, they remind me of you. Come on man, come down from your horse and see me for what I am, an individual who has been searching for Truth and making assumptions about it like you. I don't see you following any established church but thinking and believing independently, and being crony with those who have a similar viewpoint.

[facilitator]

Harmony does indeed come from tension.  The tent stands because of the stress between the center poles and the outer pegs.  Good to see some real exchange instead of the pompous platitudes.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Believe me RP  you are neither a threat or controlling to me..

But to try and explain demeanor in language is very difficult.. but because i know it is a sincere question.. read statements for what is said not what you read into what is said.. if you follow a person you begin to see personality showing through the words.. believe me i know people far better at it than i am..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 4:15 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, O.K. it is just a discussion, but tell me how I am threatening or controlling.

"  the problem  develops in the threatening and controlling manner that is implied.. "

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 2:27 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[archytas]

Equafinality is a word most have not heard, yet just means there may be many roads to the same outcome.  Id, ego and super-ego are just terms from Freud and various origins in religion and literature (Attic tragedy, Goethe, Shakespeare).  Some receive 'I think therefore I am' as 'clever', others mistrust the grounding, even of doubt, in this glib form of philosophy based on "presence".  Like Allan, some have it that this wordy-merdey is just a form of dominating presence itself.  Science can easily beat people up by asking them to integrate, differentiate, work out vectors, draw curves from data and even do and record some simple measurements.  If Gabby and I met (and the bullets missed), we would have to speak in English for me to understand as my German is even more schoolboy than the rest of me.  Unless blind, most of us could look down a microscope and see Brownian motion (bits from pollen grains buffeted by molecules), but most of us lack the language to understand this (one does not see the molecules or the physics of a potential pathway to the stars).

Tony's tent is not a bad example of a tensor system (Einstein - but the ideas come from how bridges stay up), though guy-ropes need some slack as I remember.

"With respect to many, if not most issues, there exist significant differences of opinion among individuals who seem to be equally knowledgeable and sincere. Individuals who apparently have access to the same information and are equally interested in the truth affirm incompatible perspectives on, for instance, significant social, political, and economic issues. Such diversity of opinion, though, is nowhere more evident than in the area of religious thought. On almost every religious issue, honest, knowledgeable people hold significantly diverse, often incompatible beliefs."

"Alston suggests that our inability to describe the elements of religious-mystical experiences from a phenomenological point of view does not imply that they lack a distinctive phenomenology, or that they fail to be directed at some mind-independent reality, in rather the way that sense experiences are.  We lack a relevant vocabulary, he argues, because we cannot construct any simple correlation between a range of “stimulus conditions” for mystical perception and the kinds of experience which are likely to arise under those conditions. And therefore we cannot refine a vocabulary for the description of mystical experience by replication of relevant conditions and renewed attention to the phenomenology of the experiences that occur under those conditions. By contrast, there is no difficulty in general in specifying the phenomenology of an experience of, say, turning one's face into a breeze, because it is easy to recreate the stimulus conditions for such an experience, and we can therefore attend repeatedly to the character of the experience. And since others can also do this, we can establish a public language for the description of such experiences."

It all gets wordy-merdey pretty quickly and many are not good with words or other forms of representation.  Sue is just back from work and my heart skipped a beat (not really of course) and yesterday Max swam the river to get to a family of deer on the other side.  I thought I might have to rush across to save the deer from harassment, but the lad just looked, seemed to chat and came back. A snake told me he wasn't a serpent (well, he actually told me that with different HOX genes he would have fingers to make the appropriate gesture to artists for there aeons of misrepresentation).  It is true snakes could grow legs if we could manipulate their HOX genes.  The rest is not something we should be silent on.  I can explain the HOX set-up in detail.  The mystic is more difficult.  In fact, the detail of presence, is overwhelming.

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:24 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan, O.K. it is just a discussion, but tell me how I am threatening or controlling.

"  the problem  develops in the threatening and controlling manner that is implied.. "

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 2:27 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Good morning world,, omnipresence if I didn't  know better I would think it was  RP type word..  I has the same type of d&d.
One I think that is one of those  teachings though in reality it is actually true,,  the problem  develops in the threatening and controlling manner that is implied..
 
To me it seems many theologians are all about mudding the issue be insisting they have the only true and accurate understanding of what is said. Very closed minded in how ideas are viewed. There seems  to be a need to have an attitude of my God is greater than your God.

I think what I am always  searching for is how to have a closer harmonious interaction with the presence as I understand him. The I Ching is one resource I use when I need to make am important decision. I like reading the I Ching ( tossing the coins ) creates a randomness in thought.  Oddly I never



تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Okay, let me try once more. Apart from the presence there is the superego and the baser drives that in one way or another serve the presence. The One is the frame within all this is bound to happen. Better now?

Am Mittwoch, 25. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Nope, the presence is the better you and the worse you, the superego is developed through the stages of your life whereas the worse you , the id , are your baser drives which continuously challenge you and corrupting your reason as well. The One is the source behind the universe which inexorably binds everyone so subtly that it is hard to understand.

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is the "presence of the better of you" that had Neil remind you of the "presence of the worse" also. Only when both sides are integrated, he would allow for "true". I conclude the true presence can be situated in the past, present, future and would match your definition of the One. Right?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

(sigh)  if only my english was so good..

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[allan...@gmail.com]

RP part of my problem is medical in nature..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 7:46 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Words are used to convey meaning, yet meaning can still be communicated in simple language as long as the idea is clear in the mind. If you have clarity of thought you will communicate meaning in some way or other, flowery language is not a necessity. Allan, you have enough words to communicate, just develop clarity of thought.

[archytas]

You speak English like a Dutch tulip Allan.  We don't listen but can still admire the beauty of it all ... spotting gobbledegook is a skill and it is very difficult to know whether we are listening to invisible cloth salesmen.  Here's a wordy explanation of how our lack of words ...

"Alston thinks, because God is said to be a personal reality, and an experience of God's presence therefore cannot be brought about in some relatively mechanical way, simply by creating an appropriate set of sensory or other conditions. So given what we mean by “God,” it is only to be expected that mystical perception will fail to yield a vocabulary that will allow us to specify at all precisely a correlative phenomenology. In other words, even if (perhaps especially if) mystical perception were veridical, we would not expect to have such a vocabulary. So the absence of the vocabulary cannot be thought to constitute an objection to the good epistemic standing of such experiences ...  tradition has commonly differentiated three varieties of experience of God: those associated with the “prayer of quiet,” the “prayer of union,” and “rapture,” in order of increasing intimacy of acquaintance with God. And each of these phases of the spiritual life, it has been said, is associated with its own distinctive phenomenology."

Of course, all this can be corrupted:

"Such an approach can admit of corruptions, as when the believer seeks out certain exalted experiences, and takes pride in them because of what they are thought to signify about intimacy with God, or perhaps takes pleasure in them simply because of their thrilling or in other ways pleasing phenomenological feel. David Pugmire  speaks of “dramaturgical” and “narcissistic” cases of emotional experience where, respectively, the emotion is taken to signify one's superior status in some respect, or where it is valued because of its pleasant phenomenological feel. And we might think of some religious experiences in similar terms. However, these cases are presumably corruptions, and the tradition which has evolved the language of “spiritual sensations” need not as such have any tendency to value religious experience for these reasons".

No doubt all of us have seen the godswanker and devil dodger in action.

".  .
Indeed, in so far as spiritual sensations are prized for these reasons — because of their phenomenological feel or as a way of underwriting one's sense of one's own importance — then they will be religiously defective (given the religious importance of the virtue of humility for example); and they are also likely to be epistemically defective, because of the suspicion that the believer, whether consciously or not, is engineering the production of such experiences for the advantages that they confer in these respects. It is in part for these reasons that there exists a very broadly based tradition of testing religious experiences by their fruits in practice. An experience which fails to issue in a livelier regard for the interests of one's neighbour, for example, is to that extent disconfirmed on religious grounds "

The 1963 Peter Sellars' film 'Heavens Above' is worth a watch on how little we have learned in 50 years'

The wheels of much we might think we can argue have already been invented.  Not knowing these arguments, our lack of erudition, is a problem - but one we know the skilled language do we just become scholastic, trapped too much in words or maybe anti-intellectualism?

[archytas]

Presence may be more messy than RP says.  We are definitely held back by the 'clever'.  There is often more in a few words from you Allan, than in a day's exposure to the rigmarole of noise and image purporting to be news and entertainment.  If we apply RP's Freudian tilt to our worthies and politicians, they look to have very severe ''medical problems'. 

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Some time a smile with a good laugh does wonders..  But  you have to watch out for those dutch tulip doctors especially when they drag you off using alien skull caps hard wiring me directly into the tulips and the flashy strobes that create the visual effect of a mid evil helmet varying using input intensity and a variety of other abnormal weird scans before allowing my beloved wife to rescued me..
In typical tulip arts fashion the doctor closely monitor my medication saying as little as possible. Other than saying there is significance weakness in the language section of my brain..  all things considered i am doing good.
Yes. There are a lot of modern meds out there  i have standing tulip specialist appointments that are on going ..  seems i am a pain in the tulip patch..thank you for the thoughts RP..  i am always open to new ideas..  but complete clarity eludes me with ... hmm  let us leave the topic of my health.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

The presence of God is unique to each soul. Many souls seem to reject that uniqueness .

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[allan...@gmail.com]

I know RP..  thank you

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 8:05 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, medical science has developed a lot and nowadays we have brain tonics which make thinking clearer. Ask your doctor,he will be able to help you here.

[archytas]

Keep taking the tulips Allan.

[archytas]

Reports of religious experience are very similar across religions and we usually find 'doctrine' has sneaked in in some form.

I sometimes feel actually part of a wider universe not contained in my head.  Sometimes, I can get so out of normal routine I take the wrong train home and find I have missed an hour or so (PTSD).  The first seems to have some kind of non-medical presence.

Women were once subject to the 'rule of thumb' - it was legal to hit them with sticks no wider than the man's thumb.  These days, in the West, it would be hard to reverse back to the days of the scold's bridle.  The emancipation involved arsonists and terrorist women.  I feel some presence in such pushes towards freedom.  The freedom of others is important within me.  If we once told women to get back in the kitchen because their little heads couldn't cope with anything 'important', we should be thinking more on whatever else is repressed and how in our society.  Academic argument, incidentally, is widely repressed from the everyday domain.  I am often aware of presence only by its absense.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Some how i get the feeling the presence is closer than you think..  thing happen for a reason .. i don't buy the magic wand God  .

Oddly i do believe the presence as i understand him has an active interaction with his creation.. all of it and beyond.

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[facilitator]

Ah yes, Peter Sellers  in "Being There" shows that lack of words can transform the world around us.
 Never got his message to Raul, but walks on water because no one told him he couldn't.

[archytas]

Religion is a Latin word.  Derrida lays out the etymology of the Latin word “religion” (he acknowledges that the etymology is problematic). The etymology implies that there are “two sources” of religion: “religio,” which implies a holding back or a being unscathed, safe and sound; and “re-legere,” which implies a linking up with another through faith  Deconstruction, never results in good conscience, in the good conscience that comes with thinking we have done enough to render justice. This is because unconditional hospitality is too dangerous and can only come with the return of the messiah - a presence of the future.

Faith (and the difficulties of it) as pol said, in other people, is very tricky.  I am not sure we could walk on water without the delusions of language that tells us we can't, yet think we could live without the delusions of propaganda.  And have always prevented children discovering fire burns by sticking their fingers in it.

[archytas]

Perhaps the attraction of religion is something better than the presence of beings being evaluated for economic worth.

[allan...@gmail.com]

😈 wonder where i would fit..
Other than some goofy dogma and doctrine it can be an interesting culture..  everyone has their place..  sometimes it can seem out of place..  but that kind of depends on the churches religious view point.. 
🗿   

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 3:11 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

--

[archytas]

All those round holes don't fit us square pegs well.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Oddly  some of the older churches actually keep their eyes open for the square pegs..  an example might be Mother Teresa who founded the sisters of charity.

Unfortunately most of the people are seat warmers.. you know the type . . Believe in God. Go to church and obey the rules don't question authority.. also known as the 1st level  of spirituality 

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[archytas]

The seat warmers sound like an undergraduate class.  Yet education always promises the 'next place' where you get access to the inner sanctum and the 'light'.  Always reminds me of Tom trying to trap Jerry by pretending an empty book is riotously funny.  

The presence I often feel concerns where we might get to after recognition of religious diversity and common elements.  The standard statement is this:

"With respect to many, if not most issues, there exist significant differences of opinion among individuals who seem to be equally knowledgeable and sincere. Individuals who apparently have access to the same information and are equally interested in the truth affirm incompatible perspectives on, for instance, significant social, political, and economic issues. Such diversity of opinion, though, is nowhere more evident than in the area of religious thought. On almost every religious issue, honest, knowledgeable people hold significantly diverse, often incompatible beliefs."

It is somewhere after this I feel god.  

[allan...@gmail.com]

Undergrad  is a good example. If you get into the graduate degrees were you start doing graduate work really becoming aware of their area of study.. 

Religious diversity us really amazing. Especially when examining all beliefs including native types. It is easy to see the differences.. what really amazes is the similarities. Sometimes when you look carefully.. i am going to risk the wrath of RP and Polly i am really surprised at the extreme similarities between Hinduism's polytheism and Christianities monotheism. Forget the numbers and replace the names and a strange similarity begins to show..

It seems that when you ignore the differences similarities begin to show up like the native american belief in the Great Spirit.  It is in the similarities  i feel that truth begins to surface..  it gets to the point of similarity  gets down right weird..

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[facilitator]

If you find that a hypocrite comes between you and God, remember the hypocrite is the one who is closer.

[Allan H]

So Tony are you saying you are a hypocrite?

On Feb 26, 2015 9:22 PM, "'facilitator' via "Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If you find that a hypocrite comes between you and God, remember the hypocrite is the one who is closer.

[archytas]

Wise advice Tony.  True these days too in academe on who is shouting 'we must put students first' loudest.  On religion, I think we are creatures of the light living in the dark.  Science isn't much good when it comes to the dark, except for the 96& of unaccounted everything via gravitational bending anomalies. 

[Allan H]

I am not so much interested in an after life as in this life a day to day idea.
After life seems like hollow empty promises people make to control others. 
The presence of God is heaven for me..  The soul dies not die  so how can there be an after life?

On Feb 25, 2015 1:01 AM, "archytas" <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Tricky multi-meaning word.  One desires to be in the presence of god in an afterlife - making it a future term.  We use it instead of charisma - she has presence.  And there is a long history of philosophy of presence.  I take presence in a more general sense of what we are not aware we have placed outside our designs in our virtual appreciation.  The words get tough, but there is an 'unsensed' we can 'touch'.

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 7:50:53 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Ben doing a lot of thinking about presence since it became a realization for me. oddly when I kind of need some escapism or just diversion I turn to the ' I Ching ' for something to think about.  Originally  it was a book today I have an electronic version.

I am still amazed at the spiritual insights written thousands of years ago..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[archytas]

Surely not Allan, he was just naming your place in the queue standing in line.

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 8:32:47 PM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

So Tony are you saying you are a hypocrite?

On Feb 26, 2015 9:22 PM, "'facilitator' via "Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

If you find that a hypocrite comes between you and God, remember the hypocrite is the one who is closer.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Strange he does not know me at all..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

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[archytas]

That's why I replied for him.  You are right - afterlifes are not much good to we immortals.

[facilitator]

Of course Allan! My narcissism is baptized in hypocrisy.

I espouse to walk in the light and yet there are plenty of "Neighbors" I don't treat better than myself.  I claim spiritual superiority and yet find myself in constant need of attitude adjustment.  I want world peace but have done little to push that round peg into all of the square holes I have encountered.  Maybe only 1 out of three times do I turn the other cheek.  And, I am definitely superior to most of the people I meet in this life.   My spirit is ill equipped to take on a higher plane of existence.

[allan...@gmail.com]

After life is perspective..  in discussions soul age pops up occasionally. I am sure souls are not all the same age per say. The have a marker point in non-time. How souls come into existence I have no idea.

But a strange thought keeps popping into my head "Could the Presence created this universe we know for the entertainment of his 'Soul Children'?

[Molly]

"We are not amused" or entertained.

[gabbydott]

Yeah, that's the Queen Molly language we want to hear, not the finger-pointing, discriminating, and yelling YOU! :)

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[Molly]

Oh, yea, that sounds like me. Or you.

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[archytas]

'We are not amused' was a regular interjection in Monty Python.

[archytas]

Postmodernism is supposedly a set of critical, strategic and rhetorical practices employing concepts such as difference, repetition, the trace, the simulacrum, and hyperreality to destabilize other concepts such as presence, identity, historical progress, epistemic certainty, and the univocity of meaning.

Tony could be seen as replaying the liar's paradox here.  To admit to hypocrisy may be to admit the truth.  For some postmodern writers, one has to go further than any set of analytic rules and recognise madness at work and restriction of dialogue to safe metaphors like Freud's Oedipal family, when the world of real desire is very different (quite a few writers were gay).

Skepticism, over many centuries, has taught a kind of suspension of judgement to a point when one works with many different arguments.  Humour can often be the only thing left after rigorous doubting, a kind of self-depreciation in the face of conflicting evidence and themes.  Those of us who 'know nothing' still know how to jibe "and even this is to know more than them, those who claim to know everything".  This doubting process, in science, comes to at least a temporary end in crucial experiments that anyone, in principle, can demonstrate.  This is rarely the case in ordinary living.

Descartes had it that we could undergo these difficult skeptical processes with faith in a warm, benevolent god.  It would be good to feel such a presence, but I don't.  He had the instruments of torture to contend with for that matter.  There is a presence of thinking on god without ancient fable, much as there are ways of thinking on economics without the dominating manners of neo-classical fantasy.  The admission of perplexity is something of a start, but has something of the vulnerability of sensory deprivation.

I am interested in the still mystical point of argument resolution after doubt that is not merely conviction, superiority.or promises so vague they are empty.

[archytas]

Thank you RP - I feel a link to what you say, though don't feel it necessary to define god.

Tony raised narcissism, which we might connect to destiny.

 
One form of  Narcissism is a little understood personality disorder which is increasingly showing up in our leaders across political, business, sporting, psychological and spiritual institutions. Indeed narcissism and narcissistic is increasingly being used to describe the mass cultural shift to a “self” obsessed culture where there is rampant consumerism, the pursuit of power, excesses, and the abuse of others in the pursuit of these ends. We all need a healthy dose of narcissism, as else we would not back ourselves in life, nor have a healthy sense of self. There are healthy forms of narcissism.  Pointing to and ridiculing one's own might well be healthy.

The dangers of narcissism are discussed here - http://www.energeticsinstitute.com.au/page/narcissistic_group_dynamics.html

One problem in recognising religious diversity is the idea that all people are honest about religious motivation and profession.  

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 4:07:16 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Neil, why think of God in the usual way, think of him as something before the big bang from which the universe emerged. Think of him as the mind which contained the unmanifest which became manifest as the universe. We know that there is predetermination but why think that he has predetermined, think that it all naturally happens and evolution is a natural predetermined process. Why should God be aware like us, as the source of all he need not be bound by the limits of consciousness and can very well be unconscious. Have faith in such a God and your destiny.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Molly are you saying you would have enjoyed watching the big bang unfold?
What a fireworks show.  😀

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 26 Feb 2015 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

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[allan...@gmail.com]

See RP  we both agree that God existed before the creation of the universe.. beyond that your theology and logic becomes questionable..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Neil, why think of God in the usual way, think of him as something before the big bang from which the universe emerged. Think of him as the mind which contained the unmanifest which became manifest as the universe. We know that there is predetermination but why think that he has predetermined, think that it all naturally happens and evolution is a natural predetermined process. Why should God be aware like us, as the source of all he need not be bound by the limits of consciousness and can very well be unconscious. Have faith in such a God and your destiny.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 9:19 AM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[polly skid]

Im intrigued by something that facil said.. The statement of superiority... Or if not even that.. Its with difficulty we acknowledge to ourself that we feel superior to someone.. If we like them.. The thought rarely occurs.. But suppose we dislike them..maybe at a first meeting.. We can acknowledge that feeling.. Why does arrogance in others put us off.. I wonder.. I just returned meeting a shrill person sort of full of their self.. And felt irritated with that meeting.. But i also feel its wrong..cant decide.. Usually takes a second meeting to reaffirm my irritation :p

On Feb 27, 2015 1:28 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Allan, in subjective matters proving your point is difficult if not impossible, I cannot prove my logic about God or the Source of creation. If people think that I am illogical, I can do nothing about it. I don't find your views correct, yet they are your views and to you they are logical and as such acceptable to me.

[allan...@gmail.com]

It is not the source of creation i find difficulty with.. it is here.

"We know that there is predetermination but why think that he has predetermined, think that it all naturally happens and evolution is a natural predetermined process.

Your predetermination theory is where the problem lies.. predetermination removes free will. And free will is what allows us to chose how we respond to our environment.  Without free will the soul might as well be a boring old robot running its unending program with no choice involved..

This is exactly the same point you joined the group with..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, in subjective matters proving your point is difficult if not impossible, I cannot prove my logic about God or the Source of creation. If people think that I am illogical, I can do nothing about it. I don't find your views correct, yet they are your views and to you they are logical and as such acceptable to me.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 1:18 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[archytas]

Certainly not RP.  Only the bit about feeling linked to what you say on god was at all relevant to you.  Tony raised the narc point and we do suggest some component of this may be necessary in creative living.  That pathological individuals are attracted to self-development and religion and can actually be very dangerous was the point.

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 7:50:51 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

I hope, Neil, that you don't think that I am a narcissist.

[gabbydott]

...whereas all your teaching us seems to be centred around the idea how even Allan's most zombie-like statements should be  embraced to reach enlightenment...

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[archytas]

I'm not sure RP's position is logical, but it is consistent.

Pol - we do just react to other people.  One of the universities I taught at had 35% public school (posh UK type) and we called them the 'Yahs' because they were so full of themselves compared with State school kids.  Taking time to work through the reaction phase is how we try to apply tolerance and rationality to personal relationships.  Most don't do a right lot of this.  Psychopaths and narcissists are very good at charming people at the reaction level.  The Yahs were much easier to teach because they spoke up, but in the end did not do better than the others at university.  They did agterwards.

Big bang may not be creation, merely an incident - say when two existing universes collided.  I'd say the future in which our galaxy collides with Andromeda in 2.5 billion years and the Sun goes red giant sometime later and 'eats' Earth is more likely knowledge than big bang.

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[archytas]

I would rather say that two old codgers support each other's dotage Gabby.

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[archytas]

There is an important presence in this argument RP - though the harmony element seems denied in the data.

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 10:09:54 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan, it is an old debate, I tried to explain my viewpoint to Lee but without success. What I am saying is that it is the 'I' which strives and acts but the 'I' is just the medium, in the background is the Spirit or God which has laid down rules which bring actions of men into a harmonious whole. If everybody was free there would be chaos, but the reality is that man is bound by nature within him and outside him and so there is harmony. But that is not all, there is still strife which makes life interesting and gives us accountability for our actions.

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[archytas]

Agreed RP - origin just remains obscure and the notions we have of the universe may be wrong.  Human beings are apparently a small part of any order, though one can imagine we may have some significance, possibly rather a lot.  I may be Allan's pet hamster as Gabby suggests, or not.  We may be a bigger part of the universe than we think - the biocentric view Molly posted a link to some while back.  The 'dark' may be more significant than we think and our destiny not in light-speed dominated-limited space-time.  One idea being pushed now is that reality is two-dimensional and we and space-time a hologram and certainly we have given up thinking of space as nothing.  The whatever may still be god.

On Friday, February 27, 2015 at 10:31:06 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Big bang, or whatever came from something that is God.

[allan...@gmail.com]

I think where your arguments and logic fail is in separating the material reality and the spiritual reality.. you are treating them as the same material bound by the same laws.  Maybe an invalid comparison would be a stem cell which creates the entirety of the body. As the body grows the stem cell evolves into different forms, skin cells, heart cells, muscle cells, nero cells. Each cell is totally different from the other cells preforming functions totally different than those of the other cells. Each type of cell originates from the simple stem and no longer resembles the stem sell from which it originated.

Now if we look at the essence of God similar to the role of the stem cell. The essence of God  evolves into the different materials that make universe and the laws that govern it (remember there are different that control materials like solids are guided by different laws than those governing liquids or solids.
 
Even though souls are created from the same essence of God the Soul is evolved differently than say a rock and follows different guidelines.. your logic does not allow for the different evolutions of the essence of God.

You are semi correct  but your logic needs to start allowing for different material evolution. The logic you are presenting is saying that if you need a heart transplant it is okay for the doctor to replace it with a granite stone because the stone obeys exactly the same laws of God as the heart does..  right,? 😇 or 😈

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 11:09 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, it is an old debate, I tried to explain my viewpoint to Lee but without success. What I am saying is that it is the 'I' which strives and acts but the 'I' is just the medium, in the background is the Spirit or God which has laid down rules which bring actions of men into a harmonious whole. If everybody was free there would be chaos, but the reality is that man is bound by nature within him and outside him and so there is harmony. But that is not all, there is still strife which makes life interesting and gives us accountability for our actions.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 2:55 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

There are more twists and in seeking an understand than a pharmacist has pills.  

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[Molly]

Not only how we respond to our external environment, but how we create our internal environment with disorganized and incoherent systems of thought, feeling need etc. There is increasing evidence that the state of this internal environment changes our DNA over time (epigenetics.)  We make choices every second, and yet, until self will and divine will match (a mystical point) there remains the opposition that prevents peace (duality) I find more and more that we share concepts, but the language we use to explain our view of them gets in the way of understanding.

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[archytas]

We live in the best of all possible worlds because it is all possible worlds and the only world. That is how it is written in the big book, the apparent horizon.

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1003.5952.pdf

An actual hologram of an object is made by interfering light from a reference beam and the light scattered by an object. To make this work effectively, a light source goes through a beam splitter to create the coherent illuminating beam and the reference beam in order to maximize the possible interference effects.

How would this happen for the Universe? Well the entropy flux takes all possible paths on the light sheet including the past and the future light sheet. This means for the central objects there is information from the most distant past and a roughly equal future epoch which match (modulo the flux through the horizon) at the apparent horizon. If one moves to a new location away from the central object, then it will have an apparent event horizon centered on it and have the same information available to it.

The idea is that all the information in the universe is encoded in two dimensions on projection points, which may be black holes or the edge of the universe.  There are enough papers on this to stock Allan's chemists.  Shades of RP in the stuff too.

We are also thinking on how the brain works in the hologram metaphor.   it is considered that formation of human mind starts in the womb by joining cloud-computing

facilities in the Holographic Universe. A decisive question is how the brain gets instructions for performing its countless tasks. The suggested computational scheme for the brain is data-driven; it runs by a transition diagram from memory as a Turing machine not by special software instructions as a von Neumann computer. The notoriously slow processing of neural circuits is offset by fast memory access, and learning occurs just through the amassment of Big Data.

No wonder we need to keep taking the tablets.

[archytas]

The mystical point is interesting and the language one.  Machines, in principle can help, as might new understandings of what forms our input.

[allan...@gmail.com]

RP i am going to get really blunt with you .  There is no human mind of can even begin to understand  and comprehend the uncreated God. 
All your arguments you present are to show dissimilarities. By Hindu teachings say that everything returns to the uncreated God.. that teaching alone gives at least some of the uncreated God some form of physical presence.
The argument you are presenting RP is saying Hinduism is full of shit..  sorry RP some of what you are saying does not hold water logically or illogically. Using similarities to demonstrate an idea is just that it creates a path to follow. I wrote it to help show you how to create a better argument.  But true to form you only find disagreement. I am desperately try to find agreement. I have no idea what you want..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

You are talking, Allan, as if god had some form and from that form he made the material universe and the human souls. The difference of your and my philosophy starts here only. God has no form from which he creates, he does so out of his creative power. Again there are material laws and biological laws, the material laws govern the physical universe whereas the biological laws govern the sentient world. We laugh and smile when our grandchild does something cute, that is because we have a 'love drive', we fall in love with a woman because we have a 'sex drive', we start searching for food because we have 'hunger'. Biology, psychology and sociology have relevance only when we are driven by nature, if we were free these subjects wouldn't be. Again, Allan, I admit that your view is important as it is a result of your experiences and your capabilities and is logical to you,and it is as such that I appreciate and accept your view, but that doesn't change my viewpoint as it is my logic and I am confident that such is truly the case.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 4:58 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

I think where your arguments and logic fail is in separating the material reality and the spiritual reality.. you are treating them as the same material bound by the same laws.  Maybe an invalid comparison would be a stem cell which creates the entirety of the body. As the body grows the stem cell evolves into different forms, skin cells, heart cells, muscle cells, nero cells. Each cell is totally different from the other cells preforming functions totally different than those of the other cells. Each type of cell originates from the simple stem and no longer resembles the stem sell from which it originated.

Now if we look at the essence of God similar to the role of the stem cell. The essence of God  evolves into the different materials that make universe and the laws that govern it (remember there are different that control materials like solids are guided by different laws than those governing liquids or solids.
 
Even though souls are created from the same essence of God the Soul is evolved differently than say a rock and follows different guidelines.. your logic does not allow for the different evolutions of the essence of God.

You are semi correct  but your logic needs to start allowing for different material evolution. The logic you are presenting is saying that if you need a heart transplant it is okay for the doctor to replace it with a granite stone because the stone obeys exactly the same laws of God as the heart does..  right,? or

[gabbydott]

...please carry your shit to Neil and make him find the mystical point in the twisted binary dualism so we young ones can live in peace, thank you...points business, sigh...

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[allan...@gmail.com]

In my simple point of view anyone that follows the teachings of anyone of the Hindu Gods falls into the category of being Hindu.. and you fit that description by your own words.
I do accept you as you are. Over the years i have watched evolve some interesting ideas only to watch you to return

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, I never said that I am a Hindu, I don't believe in any religion. I take what I want and discard what I don't. As for agreement, do as you please. I have accepted you with your viewpoint and if you can't accept me as I am, I don't see any need of a rational discourse.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Ignored...

[gabbydott]

Matchmaking at your own double-standards ... Yes please explain to RP how to be the Hindu God you expect him to be ... Great theatre here today

Am Freitag, 27. Februar 2015 schrieb :

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[polly skid]

Do you live in Delhi RP.. Cos Vam was from Delhi too.. You're probably irritated i asked you again.. ;p

On Feb 27, 2015 8:35 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gabby, I don't mind Allan getting angry with me, in my country there are many Hindu zealots going around persecuting young girls who wear western attire because they think that they are spoiling Hindu culture. It is the same all over the world , the world is full of fundamentalists though I don't consider Allan to be one.

[polly skid]

Okay, i respect that.

On Feb 27, 2015 8:56 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Polly I treasure my anonymity.

[gabbydott]

Fine if you don't mind. I do. I strongly object to the acceptance of Allan's racist messaging by those in power. 

Am Freitag, 27. Februar 2015 schrieb RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>:

Gabby, I don't mind Allan getting angry with me, in my country there are many Hindu zealots going around persecuting young girls who wear western attire because they think that they are spoiling Hindu culture. It is the same all over the world , the world is full of fundamentalists though I don't consider Allan to be one.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:40 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote:

[facilitator]

I think it's wonderful that we are able to make a God in our own image after our own likeness.

[allan...@gmail.com]

There are many different forms of christianity..  my true core beliefs have changed little but my perspective of how i view them have changed.
Change is one of the fundamentals of the the universe.  It is always evolving. To me beliefs need to evolve or they die.. there are many seat warmers..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 3:59 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Allan, a person born as a Hindu is considered a Hindu always even if he is an atheist. There are so many beliefs in Hinduism that it is hard to reconcile them with each other. My belief is derived from the advaita form of Hinduism , that is the non-dual philosophy. I know that there is a dissimilarity in my interpretation and that of others of great repute, but I believe that my interpretation is correct and I am confident that it is logical. My beliefs have not changed for the last ten years, and I think that you have not been understanding me correctly if you think that recently I had outgrown my deterministic philosophy.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Thank you.. i consider you as a friend too.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 27 Feb 2015 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Presence

Gabby, I don't mind Allan getting angry with me, in my country there are many Hindu zealots going around persecuting young girls who wear western attire because they think that they are spoiling Hindu culture. It is the same all over the world , the world is full of fundamentalists though I don't consider Allan to be one.

On Fri, Feb 27, 2015 at 7:40 PM, gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com> wrote: