nothing particular

[pol.science kid]

So... i have nothing particular to say.... but i am posting because
there has not been much activity...i think i am falling into a
deterministic view of life...again...because...even though i do not
have much life experience...there can be patterns determined...if
everything is to analysed from childhood...of course they are not the
exact same thing repeating itself..but yet there is a similarity..so
my question is... is it our psychological and mental make up that even
though altering over time never changes in essence...is it that which
attracts similar circumstances...can we really change...or...as our
state of being transforms..with experience...is it a mere illusion or
does it really occur...

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

The neysayers would have it that the path you are on is unchangable by
you.

I disagree. We have the ability to choose, thus we have the ability
to control.

[pol.science kid]

do we really have the ability to choose... i mean ... wat about the choices given... wat determines that...

--
\--/ Peace

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Detrimination isn't really determination.

What has gone before may sway you one way or the other but ultimatly
it is us that choose. Yes yes I'll not deny that choices may be
limited, but a limit between merely two choices is still choice is it
not?

On 23 Sep, 12:14, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> do we really have the ability to choose... i mean ... wat about the choices
> given... wat determines that...
>

> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:06 AM, leerevdoug...@googlemail.com <

>
>
>
>
>
> l...@rdfmedia.com> wrote:
> > The neysayers would have it that the path you are on is unchangable by
> > you.
>
> > I disagree.  We have the ability to choose, thus we have the ability
> > to control.
>
> > On 23 Sep, 12:00, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > So... i have nothing particular to say.... but i am posting because
> > > there has not been much activity...i think i am  falling into a
> > > deterministic view of life...again...because...even though i do not
> > > have much life experience...there can be patterns determined...if
> > > everything is to analysed from childhood...of course they are not the
> > > exact same thing repeating itself..but yet there is a similarity..so
> > > my question is... is it our psychological and mental make up that even
> > > though altering over time never changes in essence...is it that which
> > > attracts similar circumstances...can we really  change...or...as our
> > > state of being transforms..with experience...is it a mere illusion or
> > > does it really occur...
>
> --

> \--/ Peace- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Molly]

It is an important leap to recognize the patterns in you and your
life, there are even archetypal patterns common to all of us,
expressed as myth and synchronistic experience. Your state and
experience are dynamic. When we talk about choice, the concept
changes for us when we leap from rational to transrational. The
choices (perceived) we make get us there. Where? In the state where
our experience reflects to us the pure awareness that includes both
what is time limited and what is eternal, the subject/object
differential vanishes. As we include the eternal aspects of self,
choice falls away and being IS (I AM), choice is unnecessary. Choice,
of one over the other, is seen in separation. In unity consciousness
(which includes and unites what seems separate) all is unified and
choice unnecessary. Life unfolds.

On Sep 23, 7:14 am, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> do we really have the ability to choose... i mean ... wat about the choices
> given... wat determines that...
>

> On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:06 AM, leerevdoug...@googlemail.com <

[gwilli...@aol.com]

Life does unfold - things happen - but it our choice to make of it what we will.

[Ash]

at some point last night I decided to write in my neglected journal,
and this was very relevant: "When the high meets the low we begin again.
We begin again until the low meets the high."

Interestingly, earlier that day I wrote, "Do NOT rely on
systematization" at the bottom of a brainstorm.

On 9/23/2010 8:29 AM, gwilli...@aol.com wrote:
> Life does unfold - things happen - but it our choice to make of it
> what we will.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
> To: "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Thu, Sep 23, 2010 8:09 am
> Subject: [Mind's Eye] Re: nothing particular
>
> It is an important leap to recognize the patterns in you and your
> life, there are even archetypal patterns common to all of us,
> expressed as myth and synchronistic experience. Your state and
> experience are dynamic. When we talk about choice, the concept
> changes for us when we leap from rational to transrational. The
> choices (perceived) we make get us there. Where? In the state where
> our experience reflects to us the pure awareness that includes both
> what is time limited and what is eternal, the subject/object
> differential vanishes. As we include the eternal aspects of self,
> choice falls away and being IS (I AM), choice is unnecessary. Choice,
> of one over the other, is seen in separation. In unity consciousness
> (which includes and unites what seems separate) all is unified and
> choice unnecessary. Life unfolds.
>

> On Sep 23, 7:14 am, "pol.science kid"<r.freeb...@gmail.com <mailto:r.freeb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > do we really have the ability to choose... i mean ... wat about the choices
> > given... wat determines that...
> >

> > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 4:06 AM,leerevdoug...@googlemail.com <mailto:leerevdoug...@googlemail.com> <

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > l...@rdfmedia.com <mailto:l...@rdfmedia.com>> wrote:
> > > The neysayers would have it that the path you are on is unchangable by
> > > you.
> >
> > > I disagree. We have the ability to choose, thus we have the ability
> > > to control.
> >

[iam deheretic]

Poli   life has cycles ,, you need the times of inactivity  it is kind of like sailing across and ocean there are hour upon hours of shear boredom folloed by moments of start

--
 (   
  )   
I_D Allan

Be Paranoid.
God is always building a better idiot!!!

[iam deheretic]

Oops!
<Poli   life has cycles ,, you need the times of inactivity  it is kind of like sailing across and ocean there are hour upon hours of shear boredom folloed by moments of stark raving terror.

disruppted thought facebook went down and I failed to check, Problems of life have to be dealt with, but that is life and the boring moments are greatly apperciated..
Allan

[pol.science kid]

youre right you know..... and thats exactly what baffles me..in simple terms i will try to say ...the choice..the apparent choice...isnt actually a choice.. its you...and you would do that whic is becoming of you...and yet we...are often bogged with regret of what could have been... i see that as the greatest impediment to  realisation....but i have seen brilliant lives wasted...and people crushed because the choices they made were not made by them..they were made for others....

--
\--/ Peace

[pol.science kid]

i like your spirit lee;-)

--
\--/ Peace

[rigsy03]

The calm before the storm? Yes- but how are we prepared to meet the
next challenge? We have no idea what is to come for the most part-
only an educated guess or wishful thinking. Life can be quite random
as it unfolds. Perhaps a worthwhile quality to pursue is...wait a
minute, I have that catchall term somewhere hiding in my vocabulary.
No system can really protect us, Allan. We either sink or swim, as
they say, and writers and philosophers have been grappling with that
notion forever. If lucky, we can survive a lot of disappointment and
loss with a certain grace- whether it is to convince ourselves or
others.

On Sep 24, 2:40 am, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oops!
> <Poli   life has cycles ,, you need the times of inactivity  it is kind of
> like sailing across and ocean there are hour upon hours of shear boredom
> folloed by moments of stark raving terror.
>
> disruppted thought facebook went down and I failed to check, Problems of
> life have to be dealt with, but that is life and the boring moments are
> greatly apperciated..
> Allan
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 9:36 AM, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Poli   life has cycles ,, you need the times of inactivity  it is kind of
> > like sailing across and ocean there are hour upon hours of shear boredom
> > folloed by moments of start
>

> > On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:00 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> So... i have nothing particular to say.... but i am posting because
> >> there has not been much activity...i think i am  falling into a
> >> deterministic view of life...again...because...even though i do not
> >> have much life experience...there can be patterns determined...if
> >> everything is to analysed from childhood...of course they are not the
> >> exact same thing repeating itself..but yet there is a similarity..so
> >> my question is... is it our psychological and mental make up that even
> >> though altering over time never changes in essence...is it that which
> >> attracts similar circumstances...can we really  change...or...as our
> >> state of being transforms..with experience...is it a mere illusion or
> >> does it really occur...
>
> > --
> >  (
> >   )
> > I_D Allan
>
> > Be Paranoid.
> > God is always building a better idiot!!!
>
> --
>  (
>   )
> I_D Allan
>
> Be Paranoid.

> God is always building a better idiot!!!- Hide quoted text -

[iam deheretic]

years ago I had the opportunity to invest a couple thousand in microsoft at the beginning.  Didn't like Bill Gates, why I really never knew, so I didn't do it.. guess i could regret it but I really don't regret it, why? I still don't like Bill Gates, I still don't know why I don't like him.

If I Look back over the the years  there are many choice that would have radically altered my life's path. the real problem is lies in the simple fact  I would never have had some of the experiences I paid a heavy and severe price tag for. if I could change the I would lose what I consider so precious, "My pearl of great price for which I have sold everything." I do not want to change my path because I would lose my pearl.
Allan

If this makes no sense, it is simple me digging around in the very foundations of which I believe.

[gabbydott]

The next leap, as Molly calls it, would be from clinging on to your
pearl to - nothing particular, as psk calls it.

On 24 Sep., 21:54, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> years ago I had the opportunity to invest a couple thousand in microsoft at
> the beginning.  Didn't like Bill Gates, why I really never knew, so I didn't
> do it.. guess i could regret it but I really don't regret it, why? I still
> don't like Bill Gates, I still don't know why I don't like him.
>
> If I Look back over the the years  there are many choice that would have
> radically altered my life's path. the real problem is lies in the simple
> fact  I would never have had some of the experiences I paid a heavy and
> severe price tag for. if I could change the I would lose what I consider so
> precious, "My pearl of great price for which I have sold everything." I do
> not want to change my path because I would lose my pearl.
> Allan
>
> If this makes no sense, it is simple me digging around in the very
> foundations of which I believe.
>

> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 2:07 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
> > youre right you know..... and thats exactly what baffles me..in simple
> > terms i will try to say ...the choice..the apparent choice...isnt actually a
> > choice.. its you...and you would do that whic is becoming of you...and yet
> > we...are often bogged with regret of what could have been... i see that as
> > the greatest impediment to  realisation....but i have seen brilliant lives
> > wasted...and people crushed because the choices they made were not made by
> > them..they were made for others....
>

[iam deheretic]

there is nothing to cling to and at the same time everything  the pearl is pure knowledge and I can not change it 
nor do I want or desire to change it.
Allan

[gabbydott]

Hm? I can understand that you cannot and do not want to change your
experiences and that the essence of all this has lead to the formation
of a certain mind set, but mind sets can be changed, can't they?

[iam deheretic]

Mindsets can be changed,, it depends upon how we view what we remember or try to forget.

the odd part of memories is they are permanent and it is those memories that create your heaven? or hell? depending upon how one has lived their life.
Allan

[gabbydott]

I still don't get it. Why not: ... depending upon how one can see
their life? Then your pearly view would make sense to me.

[iam deheretic]

Gabby  That pearly point of view is one I understand  but is very difficult to explain,

but I will try,,  life after death and what happens,
say one life is occupied with gaining money and toys with no regard to anyone else. when this person dies and there is no longer money or physical toys and all that is left is the memories, including exactly how the money is made, whether done honestly or say by dishonest methods. the real problem starts is you can not explain your actions away and all that is left is the truth.

We are all taught right and wrong and there are parts that we are learn as we go along and morality is not something we can pick and choose.

Another possible is an what i consider the distortion of religious believes to meet the desires of the individual.  The old testement on of the laws given to Moses  and it simply reads  " thou shall not commit murder.  "   Now the Islamic claim the old statement as part of their religious beliefs..  here in the problems lie.  when a suicide bomber goes and kills himself and murders others around him.  Now after this act and  he stands before Allah, his soul feeling the pain of the explosion that ripped through his body as he died  and he is over heard saying to Allah  "I murdered all these heathens as you have commanded."  to which Allah replies "I order you to murder no one."   There are no virgins to south his wounds , no milk and honey as he was sold a bill of goods all that is left is the wracking pain of the explosion. in other words he created his own version of hell.

Gabby I really do not know how to explain this and these are very poor examples and I am not the person that is the judge. alI can really say is each person creates their own heaven or hell or something in between. kind of a Karma thing.
Allan

[gabbydott]

Thank you very much for taking me serious and worth responding to. I
understand much better now what separates us (and why you believe we
compete with God in the building trade, as your signature
indicates ;-))


Personally I am a great fan of religious believes. The problem I see
lies in their need for adequate ways of updating their content. What
you describe as "the distortion of religious believes to meet the
desires of the individual" is what I see is exactly their function,
only that they don't distort right anymore or have never succeeded in
doing so. Whatever.

For what you describe as "each person creates their own heaven or hell
or something inbetween" and linking it to karma, I have found another
description, it goes: Karma is your predestined fate and dharma is
your right action. In a card game, karma is the hand you are dealt and
dharma is how you play the hand." Adding best case and worst case
scenarios to the picture, we would have included the heaven and hell
qualities. Yes?

[ashok tewari]

" Karma is the hand you are dealt and dharma is how you play the hand."

Very exact.

--
ASHOK TEWARI

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Karma and Dharma, the great poker game huh?

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[iam deheretic]

I have never been into the eastern religions and will be the first to admit it..  what I do know is just a brushing the truth be know I never really knew what darma was   I alway passed it off as a miss spelling of karma.

The truth is I like how you explained the difference
Thank you  both  1: for the information and  2: for the confirmation.

I too am a great fan of religious beliefs, I think the real problems lies in the fact that many of them never update their beliefs. What I have learned over the years is beliefs are not fixed but are meant to expand and evolve. I enjoy going through and digging around the foundations of what I do believe and there is conflict between the past and the present.
Allan

[iam deheretic]

I don't think they are referring to poker  but rather  how we responded  to life ,, what they are saying Lee is Karma is the baggage we bring into this life  and drama is how we deal with it.
I hope I got that right.
Allan

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Heh I think a game of poker is a perfectly valid aologory for Karma
and Dharma.

Karma, the cards we are dealt, Dharma, the way in which we play these
cards.

Am I bluffing or do I hold a good hand? Will you call me, or fold?
Do you up the anty, or do you take the chance that my hand beats
yours?

On 29 Sep, 07:20, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't think they are referring to poker  but rather  how we responded  to
> life ,, what they are saying Lee is Karma is the baggage we bring into this
> life  and drama is how we deal with it.
> I hope I got that right.
> Allan
>

> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 6:23 PM, leerevdoug...@googlemail.com <

[rigsy03]

I'd prefer a game with a trump or wild card...

On Sep 29, 6:13 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
wrote:

[pol.science kid]

somehow i think this whole karma as hocus pocus invented to induce good behaviour and a scheme of religion..........

--
\--/ Peace

[pol.science kid]

or maybe you havnt sold  anyhting to get i t... your pearl was supposed to be handed down to you this way....can there really be an alternative.. the fact that you are actively or even passively chosing a way..thats it..thatsd wat there is...thats how it unhfolds..........

--
\--/ Peace

[iam deheretic]

As you get older Poli maybe you will understand.
Some types of knowledge are not free for good reason
Allan

[DarkwaterBlight]

I tend to agree, Allan, in fact, I would go as far as saying that all
things come with a cost. Perhaps that is a bit pessimistic? Do we tend
to overlook that which was sacraficed in acheiving what we posses,
learn, experience?

On Sep 29, 1:53 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As you get older Poli maybe you will understand.
> Some types of knowledge are not free for good reason
> Allan
>

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:22 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > or maybe you havnt sold  anyhting to get i t... your pearl was supposed to
> > be handed down to you this way....can there really be an alternative.. the
> > fact that you are actively or even passively chosing a way..thats it..thatsd
> > wat there is...thats how it unhfolds..........
>

> > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> years ago I had the opportunity to invest a couple thousand in microsoft
> >> at the beginning.  Didn't like Bill Gates, why I really never knew, so I
> >> didn't do it.. guess i could regret it but I really don't regret it, why? I
> >> still don't like Bill Gates, I still don't know why I don't like him.
>
> >> If I Look back over the the years  there are many choice that would have
> >> radically altered my life's path. the real problem is lies in the simple
> >> fact  I would never have had some of the experiences I paid a heavy and
> >> severe price tag for. if I could change the I would lose what I consider so
> >> precious, "My pearl of great price for which I have sold everything." I do
> >> not want to change my path because I would lose my pearl.
> >> Allan
>
> >> If this makes no sense, it is simple me digging around in the very
> >> foundations of which I believe.
>

> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 2:07 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> youre right you know..... and thats exactly what baffles me..in simple
> >>> terms i will try to say ...the choice..the apparent choice...isnt actually a
> >>> choice.. its you...and you would do that whic is becoming of you...and yet
> >>> we...are often bogged with regret of what could have been... i see that as
> >>> the greatest impediment to  realisation....but i have seen brilliant lives
> >>> wasted...and people crushed because the choices they made were not made by
> >>> them..they were made for others....
>

> God is always building a better idiot!!!- Hide quoted text -

[rigsy03]

So true! It really depends on the category. Some lessons are immediate
while others seem a lifetime struggle- appearing over and over again
until we "get it"! Even now, I have to think and feel very seriously
not to romanticize the past and realize my part in all that has
happened. As I read "War and Peace" I am struck dumb with my
similarity to Natasha's youthful behavior and Pierre's stuggle with
happiness. Why didn't I read this book when I was young and still
free? Would it have changed me or would I have thought it had nothing
to do with me or my life. Ah well...

Another thought- men are simply better writers than women although
they might gloss over the female psyche at times. Yes- I know the
works of Austen, Dickinson, Woolf and others who have made it into
Bloom's Canon but my opinion stands. And I haven't read anything since
women have become liberated to change my mind.

On Sep 29, 12:53 pm, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As you get older Poli maybe you will understand.
> Some types of knowledge are not free for good reason
> Allan
>

> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 3:22 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > or maybe you havnt sold  anyhting to get i t... your pearl was supposed to
> > be handed down to you this way....can there really be an alternative.. the
> > fact that you are actively or even passively chosing a way..thats it..thatsd
> > wat there is...thats how it unhfolds..........
>

> > On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, iam deheretic <dehere...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >> years ago I had the opportunity to invest a couple thousand in microsoft
> >> at the beginning.  Didn't like Bill Gates, why I really never knew, so I
> >> didn't do it.. guess i could regret it but I really don't regret it, why? I
> >> still don't like Bill Gates, I still don't know why I don't like him.
>
> >> If I Look back over the the years  there are many choice that would have
> >> radically altered my life's path. the real problem is lies in the simple
> >> fact  I would never have had some of the experiences I paid a heavy and
> >> severe price tag for. if I could change the I would lose what I consider so
> >> precious, "My pearl of great price for which I have sold everything." I do
> >> not want to change my path because I would lose my pearl.
> >> Allan
>
> >> If this makes no sense, it is simple me digging around in the very
> >> foundations of which I believe.
>

> >> On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 2:07 PM, pol.science kid <r.freeb...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> >>> youre right you know..... and thats exactly what baffles me..in simple
> >>> terms i will try to say ...the choice..the apparent choice...isnt actually a
> >>> choice.. its you...and you would do that whic is becoming of you...and yet
> >>> we...are often bogged with regret of what could have been... i see that as
> >>> the greatest impediment to  realisation....but i have seen brilliant lives
> >>> wasted...and people crushed because the choices they made were not made by
> >>> them..they were made for others....
>

[rigsy03]

Women are schooled to sacrifice- by religion and society- by their
very bodies- by maternity.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[pol.science kid]

wat does it mean to sacrifice ? i dont really know.... giving up something to get wat YOU want...ultimately it boils down to you....

--
\--/ Peace

[DarkwaterBlight]

I had an interesting conversation with mom, last night about what it
meant to her to serve God. She gave an interesting reply that I
thought relevant and note worthy.
First, though, let me explain that she is a christian woman who
has tried to raise my three brothers, my sister and myself as such. We
are the product of two unsuccessful marriages, the first of which was
to an active biker who was abusive and never home. He finally left
when my brother, her third, was an infant. The second to my father, an
ex Navy Seal/ UDT (Frogman) who was an alcoholic and agnostic. Though
not physically abusive (for the most part) he was mentaly abusive to
her and my younger brother (who he called 'The runt'). They divorced
when I was seven and he was ultimately murderd because of his
associations with merc's, mobsters and crooked law enforcement.

[DarkwaterBlight]

Well, she had to raise the five of us alone! A woman with an 8th grade
education who started a family? at sixteen. Without going into too
much detail (I'm working on a book) this was her answer;

Serving God means keeping [myself] clean spiritualy and physicaly and
making good meals for my husband and family. When [I'm] wrong, repent
and to be aware of [Him] always.

[Molly]

I can see the truth in your mother's view! So simple and succinct.

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Hey Pol,

Heheh yes indeed we are all selfish and the religous amongst us are
the most selfish.

On 30 Sep, 14:40, "pol.science kid" <r.freeb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> wat does it mean to sacrifice ? i dont really know.... giving up something
> to get wat YOU want...ultimately it boils down to you....
>
> On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 11:29 AM, DarkwaterBlight

> <douglas.bli...@gmail.com>wrote:

> \--/ Peace- Hide quoted text -

[gabbydott]

Again I need to oppose, Lee. Poli is better than that. Questioning the
YOU as a potential YOU-Creator explains her suicidal tendencies but
not her selfishness. ;-)

On 1 Okt., 11:08, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
wrote:

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Oppose away my dearest Gabs.

Let me ask though, why do we belivers belive?

I know of not one single religion nor indeed dharma who's very
existance is one of saving.

Christians want to save themselves from hell, Sikhs want to save
themselves from the birth-death-rebirth cycle.

Yes indeed the religoius person is the most selfish. Yep yep me
included.

Humanity is selfish, there is nowt wrong in this, it is like saying I
have dark hair, it is simply a fact and I attribute no morality to it.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[rigsy03]

I don't think there is a major for Common Sense in college which
proves valuable for life along with your mother's other qualities.
Bravo that she got rid of the blackguards!!! My maternal grandmother
married at 13 which was common at the turn of the 20th century though
I can't even remember who I had a crush on in 8th grade! Highschool
used to include home economics and shop plus there were vocational
schools- now the push is to create a society that is probably over-
educated and female driven. Anyway, marriages are strange and
certainly not always what they seem. I am aware and thank God everyday
I am no longer married to my former husbands- what a nightmare!
However, the children turned out fine and that's what is really
important.

[rigsy03]

Religion is one of several ways that we learn values and ethics and
how to live a good life and be a good person. But religion can be
corrupted.

On Oct 1, 6:54 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
wrote:

[l...@rdfmedia.com]

Hey Rigsy,

I'm afraid that I shall have to disagree with you here.

I think that a brain mature enough to 'get' religion has already
obtained a moral system. I don't think that religoin is at all
responsible for setting moral values, as we all have moraly values at
really a very young age.

Does religoin shape pre-existing morality? Yes I think it does.

[rigsy03]

That depends. What if the child is exposed to immoral or amoral
beginnings and religion comes later? Then, I think a great deal of
confusion is bound to happen and guilt since the parents or situation
will be judged by the child- rather abnormal- plus the child will be
judged by others for his background and feel it unfair. There is also
other situations such as war or extreme poverty or illness, etc. that
definitely color a child's value system. There's a recent review of a
book dealing with the uterine trauma for the fetus- really nothing new
to women, however. The good news is that, with a decent education
somewhere along the line or even postive relationships, a person can
really grapple with morals and ethics and apply them to their own
lives- but I do feel the emotional base of childhood is a mighty force
and never is completely erased from the psyche- i.e., it is hard-
wired.

On Oct 4, 6:15 am, "leerevdoug...@googlemail.com" <l...@rdfmedia.com>
wrote:

[pol.science kid]

i agree with you..no matter how corupt it might have become ... and no matter how developed we might have become... i think most people do need to believe...believe in something...need to associate themselves with something higher than themselves..its just there..and i know we'd be better off without religion.. but like schapenhauer  said.. religion is the philosophy of the common....i think he said something like that

--
\--/ Peace