Imagination

[Molly]

I have been thinking about something facilitator said about imagination a few days back and wonder what everyone thinks about it. Contemporary christian mystics like Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith and Ralph Waldo Trine think it is the crucible of consciousness so to speak. I also think it is important in the way we shape the world we live in, using it for thought, inspiration, creativity and even memory. If we are both finite and infinite, I think imagination helps us bridge that gap. What do YOU think?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Spirituality is at best a strange reality.. Catholic beliefs are the foundation from where I started from. Hinduism is fascinating but it is not my culture nor is Islam.
For me what I know for certain is God's Presence is very real but we don't listen to his presence.. That Presences is exactly the  same presence Jesus found.
You can find and read read into all most anything in the bible depending on your perspective.

I do not want to destroy beliefs if for no other reason they serve people well.. the sad part is that beliefs are easily manipulated.

What i am certain of is God is very real and an active presence in my life. Plus my soul is real..  a few other things along the line  of my sigline..    but what do I know being and old fool on top the hill

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[Molly]

and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round. Nicely done.

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[Hope Sunshine]

Ultimately all is imagination in a world of imagination. What was it that facilitator said about imagination? Surely we can melt all that matters to us to one bowl. We could need some clarifying words from you over in the bully conversation. Can I invite you to take a look there too?

[RP Singh]

I think without imagination there could be no hypothesis. First you imagine, and in that you see a glimpse of logic, and from that arises hypothesis.

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[archytas]

Ah Hope!  What an imagined blessing to us all you are.

Molly has written fairly extensively on imagination, including such as a coming transparent world, an old religious theme she handles much better than some famous texts (More, Bentham) and without grim fundamentalist overtones of a promotion of virtue and prevention of vice squad.  One could start in Hope's lovely circles of all being imagination in an imagination world - the modal logic view of David Lewis and Nelson Goodman on ,many possible worlds.  I'm sure Hope will give us a long treatise on this now Gabby isn't about to bully everyone and Allan has been castigated and is trying to be a good boy.  There does seem something of a flaw in the many world Hope hypothesis, as every possible world Hope is in contains Gabby-bullying questions.  This is remarkably dull and unimaginative.

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 12:05:47 AM UTC, Hope Sunshine wrote:

Ultimately all is imagination in a world of imagination. What was it that facilitator said about imagination? Surely we can melt all that matters to us to one bowl. We could need some clarifying words from you over in the bully conversation. Can I invite you to take a look there too?

Am Mittwoch, 11. März 2015 22:41:56 UTC+1 schrieb Molly:

I have been thinking about something facilitator said about imagination a few days back and wonder what everyone thinks about it. Contemporary christian mystics like Neville Goddard, Joel Goldsmith and Ralph Waldo Trine think it is the crucible of consciousness so to speak. I also think it is important in the way we shape the world we live in, using it for thought, inspiration, creativity and even memory. If we are both finite and infinite, I think imagination helps us bridge that gap. What do YOU think?, includ

[archytas]

These days imagination is recognised as playing a central role in human thought, from planning and creativity to memory and problem-solving. It protects our mental health and may even be the fragile foundation on which human society is built.  It's thought making up imaginary worlds may be essential in maintaining our health. According to Steven Mithen, an anthropologist at the University of Reading, UK, who specialises in the evolution of the mind, seven key changes were needed to allow the emergence of human imagination as we know it. Each happened for other purposes, the first three in our distant ancestors, but the final four exclusively to Homo sapiens - though we think other animals imagine.

1 Theory of mind

What is it? The knowledge that others have beliefs and thoughts that are different from one's own. Probably evolved in response to larger social groups

How does it support imagination? Allows "thought experiments" about thoughts and behaviours of others

2 Human life history

What is it? A long period of infant helplessness plus an extended childhood and adolescence. May have evolved to resolve the conflict between bipedalism – which narrows the pelvis – and large brain size

How does it support imagination? Enables an extended period with no adult responsibilities, giving the opportunity for imaginative play.  Teenage ends at about 25 in physical terms.

3 Specialised intelligence

What is it? The evolution of dedicated mental modules to deal with specific types of thought or behaviour

How does it support imagination? Allows the combination of different types of knowledge or ways of thinking to create new ideas 

4 Language

What is it? Strictly speaking, a system of words and grammatical rules. Mithen argues that only Homo sapiens evolved true language

How does it support imagination? Enables the creation, sharing and elaboration of ideas that couldn't have been conceived of in a single human mind

5 Cognitive fluidity 

What is it? Using language to more efficiently combine specialist knowledge across cognitive domains

How does it support imagination? Allows the creation of novel thoughts and ideas including metaphors and symbols

6 The extended mind

What is it? The use of technologies such as writing and computer chips to store and share ideas

How does it support imagination? Allows existing ideas to be built on and improved 

7 Sedentary lifestyle

What is it? The transition from nomadic hunter-gathering to settled farming lifestyles

How does it support imagination? Through a massive expansion of the shared, extended mind and also the creation of food surpluses so individuals could spend time on creative pursuits

This doesn't really define imagination, but does suggest it is not as much 'in brain' as we have traditionally imagined.  Memories used by the imagination are often fractured and not accurate and it can be difficult to separate memory and imagination.  This is the beginning of the scientific view of imagination and at some point we start to see links with Molly's mystics and the intuition RP mentions in what we normally term hypothetico-deductive method.

[archytas]

. If we approach the mind and body as an

integrated unit, we cannot separate training our muscles from

our mental activity because they are unavoidably linked. Training

the body perceptively necessitates quietening and training the

mind as it actively engages in its observant and embodied nature.

Chi paradigm offers a potential analytic approach to capture the

intuition of wholeness in terms of biofunctionalism within the

cognitive sciences.

Not Molly, but a couple of psychologists, who also explore imagination as part of perception.  It seems odd, given how important imagination is that Education is increasingly reduced to a form of instrumental rationality that kills the imagination, and exorcises any attempt to connect pedagogy to the goal of educating students to be thoughtful, civically courageous,politically engaged, and complex critical thinkers.  I'm not convinced that imagination is subjective and individual in any complete sense.  

Silva, M.J. (2013). Coming Up Short: Working-Class Adulthood in Age of Uncertainty. New York: Oxford University Press - Jennifer Silva talks about coming of age age for young people “is not just being delayed but fundamentally dismantled by drastic economic restructure, profound cultural transformations,and deepening social inequality” (Silva, 2013, 10) The futures of young people are being refigured or reimagined in ways that both punish and depoliticize them. Silva writes that many young people are turning away from politics, focusing instead on the purely personal and

emotional vocabularies of self-help and emotional self-management.:

“…this emerging working-class adult self is characterized by low

expectations of work, wariness toward romantic commitment, widespread

distrust of social institutions, profound isolation from others,

and an overriding focus on their emotions and psychic health….

[They] are working hard to remake dignity and meaning out of emotional

self-management and willful psychic transformation.” 

It strikes me much we imagine as imagination is highly controllable from the outside and any inner bit about trying to extract some dignity.

[RP Singh]

Vam used to call my posts "imaginings", but I found that most of my thinking was connected to modern theories. My thoughts were based on my logic and my logic might have been sometimes mere imaginings but mostly my views are amply substantiated by modern day scientific hypotheses.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Sorry RP  it partly comes from my understanding of Molly and is a direct answer to her question .. it does not mean you will understand what I said..

[Hope Sunshine]

What is imagination in this case that is not covered by the hen and egg question? Which law operates on the sequencing order that you propose? What is your hypothesis?

"I think without imagination" is a non-starter for my reasoning for example. No Hope to be found there. ;)

[Hope Sunshine]

I do realize how much time and energy you spend on translating other peoples words for me. I do appreciate the good intentions, but would kindly ask you to reflect upon the light that this sheds on those, whose original words are pushed in the shadow. I think we should all have the right to think and speak for ourselves in our original words! Speak up, people! 

[Hope Sunshine]

I see Vam is very much happier these days now that he has switched to publishing his written out interior monologue without any disturbances by more modern theoreticians. I am happy for him, happy with you and happy for myself this way. 

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"as well as" = "equals"

Take a stand against sexism, racism and other forms of structural violence!

[RP Singh]

I have no hypothesis, it was a general statement. If you don't agree it's o.k.

[Hope Sunshine]

Do I sound wrong in any way that you suggest it could not be okay to think one has no hypothesis? Imagination is a tricky world, allowing for everything and nothing, depending on the context. Hypothesis formation is a much more straight forward approach, which is why I asked you about yours. So you have none. Fine also. :-)

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[RP Singh]

Hope, are you Gabby in an alter-ego?

[allan...@gmail.com]

This is great  "Sun Shine" has inherited the conversation stimulus position..   (",)  exciting isn't it.. ;o)

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Imagination

[Hope Sunshine]

Hahaha, Hope is unalterable ego-driven. :-)

[allan...@gmail.com]

Interesting thought RP.. 
Sun Shine  my email program does not automatically down pics..and your sigline registers as a pic. It is protecting my data usage limits,, thought you might want to know.

[Hope Sunshine]

Yes, I would like to know if only I would understand. You are saying that my image does not automatically download on your device due to the settings? Well, that is a standard setting. What about the two lines above? Are they showing on your device?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

The image makes the whole sigline a pic.. you can actually put your real signature there that was the original intention.. remove pick and your written lines should show up..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Imagination

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[Hope Sunshine]

What a lovely idea, inHERitance! Worth a poem! Hahah.

self-Empowerment is how I would describe the action term I want to encourage people to live! 

[Hope Sunshine]

Hold on...

[Hope Sunshine]

Now? How do I come across now? Better?

2015-03-12 14:07 GMT+01:00 <allan...@gmail.com>:

[Hope Sunshine]

I always see you siglines ... mine are still not showing :(

Which email client are you using?

2015-03-12 14:07 GMT+01:00 <allan...@gmail.com>:

[andrew vecsey]

It would be helpful if you could quote facilitator^s comment you are referring to and are asking us to comment on. Imagination in my opinion is one of the things that differentiate us from AI.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Just write the poem  and add it to latest poetry line .. it creates a Japanese still of poetry Haiku is traditional written by different  poets giving their poetic view of the subject.  In our case hopefully it is our life today.. then you can read the writings of others making the complete days poem..

[allan...@gmail.com]

I am using a mail program called maildroid for my phone..  it is where i do email from.

[Hope Sunshine]

Okay, thanks. Can you see my siglines there now?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Not sure startx a new section

[Hope Sunshine]

Oh, I know and understand that technique. What I am trying to wrap my mind around at the moment is - how does my sigline come across...

[Hope Sunshine]

What do you mean, not sure you can see it???

[allan...@gmail.com]

Start a original conversation for the group..
You have to remember i have both my emails tied to the same sigline .

[archytas]

Far more East German now Hope - less bundes.  Do you now drive a Trabbie electric conversion too?

On Thursday, March 12, 2015 at 1:11:58 PM UTC, Hope Sunshine wrote:

Now? How do I come across now? Better?

2015-03-12 14:07 GMT+01:00 <allan...@gmail.com>:

The image makes the whole sigline a pic.. you can actually put your real signature there that was the original intention.. remove pick and your written lines should show up..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Hope Sunshine <donna...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Mar 2015 1:59 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Imagination

Yes, I would like to know if only I would understand. You are saying that my image does not automatically download on your device due to the settings? Well, that is a standard setting. What about the two lines above? Are they showing on your device?

2015-03-12 13:48 GMT+01:00 <allan...@gmail.com>:

Interesting thought RP.. 
Sun Shine  my email program does not automatically down pics..and your sigline registers as a pic. It is protecting my data usage limits,, thought you might want to know.


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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Take a stand against sexism, racism and other forms of structural violence!

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[facilitator]

I have as one of my "Trade mark" sayings:

Beauty is not in the eye of the beholder but in the eye of the imaginative"

' What man has envisioned he will eventually conceive ' (Murray)  somewhat encompasses the ability to imagine.

"The only hinderance to progress is lack of imagination"

It was thought back in the day that if a locomotive traveled faster than a horse it would begin to fall apart.  It is said nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. Someday we will because we have imagined we should.

The only people who really saw man on the moon were science fiction writers.

The bionic man was part fact part fable now it is all fact.

a myriad of devices seen on Star Trek are now a reality.

If we are indeed creatures of the divine then what hinders us from creating anything we can imagine?

[archytas]

Amazing how quickly people catch on to the Alter Egg, Humpty.  I have been running imaginary tales for Holmes in a cunning plan of his to let your mask slip on its own.  It was cruel of you to deprive us of Gabby, a bit like when Miss Cooper got married when I was seven and realised her love for me was not true as Mrs Astle.  Bertha knew you were not very alter after Hope's first bag of words, though AL seems to have taken longer.

How did you know that Molly the Fair was about to return to the imagination crucible, and lay the ground, John the Baptist style, with this imaginary yet sig-lined Other?  Did you use a high frequency sniffing algo?  Does Tony know Surf is a washing powder here?  Will Gabby be able to cope with us all liking Hope (except me of course) so much better than her?  One suspects Castor might do in Pollux in a fit of insane jealousy, which has been my gentle warning all along.  I had some plan to save Gabby from herself, for one must do something to justify the oat bill for the white charger, but her own Humean concept of mobile self has imprisoned her in Hope and the sunshine shell.  It's probably all maintained by laser pressure, muon substitution and a massive magnetic field, as in fusion.  Or a house of tarot cards.  Amazing what Gabby will do to keep her old gentlemen happy, so I hear.

We have learned a great deal on the imagination through the observation of children at play and here from cranky adults.  One of the lessons is that one can 'look outward' to know whether you are imagining or not, avoiding some rather obvious and early problems with introspection and its lack of evidence.  This is serious work and can't be had on the day the Thiedy Bears have their picnic, which is the everyday bonfire of the vanities in here.  Do the rest of you drink from tiny plastic cups and shake hands with chimpanzees at Gabby's tea-parties, now hosted so ably in the Sunshine?

Are you guys in imagination-based free play here, or living in the secret pleasures of bureaucracy and the Utopia of rules.  Bertha finds little free play in the group and some simple rule-based avatars.  All very machine like - you'd all know if you knew anything about machines.  It is very easy to program the activity of adolescent teacher-mincers as their basic knowledge-base is almost non-existent and they couldn't imagine their way out of a wet paper bag.  The rudeness is typical and tells us a lot about people.  I suppose, as Hope is back as Alter-Gabby, I should reveal I have been imagining you all as an experiment on whether libidinal humans can talk sensibly about anything.  I knew the answer was no before I started.  My design is about uncovering the mechanisms of this.

One element of imagination is involved in creating circumstances more pleasant than exposing one's own ignorance and chronic libidinality.  I might fill in time by asking Hope if she is blonde or wonder on Gabby as the leather-pelmeted Amazon with a machine grovelling at her feet (pictures passim), or look at women in newsrooms as sex objects because there is certainly no news - this is a very peculiar experiment as these women are all younger than me (how did that happen in Hope's discrimination-free paradise?) and yet remind me of what I didn't like about my mother and aunts, with fashion running back to the clothes they wors, often run up by a skilled sewing machinist from curtain material.  Revulsion is the general feeling, the feeling of being used.  Imagine that.  I have noticed that if I start noticing what people look like they waste the space they are occupying.  Lips move, only pouting, saying nothing worthwhile.  There are many such imagination games.  Should we look inward to find out where they start?

This group has long been in love with the secret pleasures of bureaucracy and its imaginary, yet context creating rules.  The situation is that attempts at freedom from arbitrary power simply ends up creating more arbitrary power - as regulations choke existence, armed guards and surveillance cameras appear everywhere, science and creativity are smothered and we spend our days filling forms.  This is all present in our trivial exchanges, some kind of micro-creation level of our domination by a tiny elite.  It seems you guys are so machine-like you can barely imagine imagination and have 'mystic' experiences like kids destroying learning they can't handle for others too.  There is as much imagination as in pop music without the skills involved in the standard plagiarism of that game.  You are just noise, until my imagination brings you alive as data in the Wasp Factory.  Haven't you worked out this is where imagination comes to die?

[archytas]

Fair enough until Star Trek as science fiction.

[archytas]

I suppose, in view of Molly's kick off, we might have got somewhere like this - http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3827305?sid=21106097273403&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3738032 - which considers Bishop Abbott's Flatland and reconciliation of science as part of Christian faith in the crucible of the imagination.  Religion, other than for bended-knee rule followers, is imaginative.

[Hope Sunshine]

​I am not interested in a personal conversation. Please respect that.​

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Unfortunately Donna or is it Gabby we are interested in personal conversations and you need to respect that too.

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[Hope Sunshine]

Speaking in the I-form usually helps to give the other the space that is needed for an exchange on a topic without drifting into a blame game or triumphantly wronging the other.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Who has been drifting into blame games..  like it is said the ants go marching two by two .  Down to the earth to get out of the rain.

[archytas]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz.- you two are so dull now the rest of us will vacate the room and go elsewhere.