What really lies in simple moral positions?
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archytas
Feb 1, 2012, 1:39:09 PM2/1/12
to "Minds Eye"
I hope to spend the next 5 years "not teaching" - a difficult
financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
and modern blogs at the moment.
What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
collapsed altogether as a moral place.
Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
financial decision as this is my 'ready-to-hand' income. Some years
back I tried to take and stick to a decision not to teach 'ideological
rot' - broadly the mainstream of business and economic subjects. This
might seem a fairly easy personal, moral decision; yet it isn't.
The interesting issues don't concern the easy morality of doing what's
right. One can find plenty of material, from Critical Theory through
to deconstructive approaches to behaviour and critical psychology -
and once, very critical management books like Peter Anthony's
'Foundation of Management' and sort programmes out on the basis of
these. Thus one could teach material one might feel credible and
stretching, broadly aimed at students learning critical reasoning. I
do offer modules based around writers like David Graeber, Steve Keen
and modern blogs at the moment.
What muddies the waters is a combination of streamlining costs in HE
and more or less the extirpation of syllabus control by academics,
along with a massive dilution of student brain-power and the
connection of student success with the numbers we pass. This
situation makes moral judgement very difficult and academe has
collapsed altogether as a moral place.
Economics has long been taught as a science - an utter farce - and
management theories are only fit for ridicule (excellence, kwality and
anything with 'strategic' in it). The world works around power and
rhetoric, and this is the only real content of such "theories".
The madness that underlies all this is that we never address what the
real issues might be. Accumulated wealth is clearly a problem for
democracy as it inevitably means some will benefit by doing nothing
while others work and that the wealth will be used to influence
politics and the very ground of commercial competition. Yet with no
consideration of this we leap into "theorising" in a system that
applauds the creation of excess wealth in few hands as a 'good'.
One can try to teach what one believes is true and in simple morality
this is what one ought to do. The actual situation is much more
complex. The jobs available in teaching (apart from a few little
eddies I have occupied) are nearly all to do with teaching the rot,
because this is the cheapest way universities can devise. The moral
choice of not teaching rot changes to a choice not to teach (and get
paid) - partly because your own students will be examined on the rot
because you are teaching as part of a 'team' and all students are set
the same questions as part of standardisation. If you don't teach the
muck you put your students at a disadvantage.
I see no answers to the moral conundrum - other than just to walk
away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.
Allan H
Feb 1, 2012, 3:30:41 PM2/1/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
not being obnoxious, The that comes to my mind is just what is your understanding of morality and how it is applied in ones life. Understanding morality on a personal level can be quite difficult, especially if you want it to make sense.
Allan
--
(
(
)
|_D Allan
Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.
archytas
Feb 1, 2012, 3:54:40 PM2/1/12
to "Minds Eye"
I had a sense of doing what seemed right as a cop Allan - even though
most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
"meritocracy" that sucks.
most situations were difficult to see a right side in. The academy
stinks as in the State of Denmark and I get to feel the only thing is
to retreat to the margins. My working guess is that it's
"meritocracy" that sucks.
Vam
Feb 2, 2012, 12:14:00 AM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
I do not think refusing a means to livelihood is any solution to the
moral conundrum, if one is not able to afford the decision nor have an
alternate opportunity in line with one's moral preference.
Delivering the rot with one's own insight is not impossible. For
instance, the reviled "strategic" makes sense when it stands for a
change or intervention that improves the whole [ organisation,
process, service, product, reach, cost...] And, Koetler is not rot...
as a reference for concepts, activities, processes.
What is rotten is the immoral practice, use and effect. There was this
MD of a contracting organisation who was siphoning off steel and
cement procured at project sites, even while he had commissioned my
services to implement Project Mgt & Control System in his orgn. It
stank ! That was untenable.
moral conundrum, if one is not able to afford the decision nor have an
alternate opportunity in line with one's moral preference.
Delivering the rot with one's own insight is not impossible. For
instance, the reviled "strategic" makes sense when it stands for a
change or intervention that improves the whole [ organisation,
process, service, product, reach, cost...] And, Koetler is not rot...
as a reference for concepts, activities, processes.
What is rotten is the immoral practice, use and effect. There was this
MD of a contracting organisation who was siphoning off steel and
cement procured at project sites, even while he had commissioned my
services to implement Project Mgt & Control System in his orgn. It
stank ! That was untenable.
Allan H
Feb 2, 2012, 2:24:52 AM2/2/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I had a lot of problems with morality (fine details) when I was a cop.. My Boss set me down and said "Allan, it is this way 'We's da good guys, da's da bad guys. sie" Even today it put morality in its proper place.
If you understand your own morality it seems you can separate that from the world you you working,, it will also allows you to know where the line is.. and that can be taught as part of the course..
Allan
Allan H
Feb 2, 2012, 2:28:19 AM2/2/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
pocket change is important and Vam is right.
Allan
Molly
Feb 2, 2012, 6:44:18 AM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
I can see that my sense of morality has changed over the years along
with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
with listening to my gut.
An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
desire for a good life.
Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
"alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
(what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
details of it.
with my relationship to life. Yet at the core of it, is a sense of
self respect that allowed me to walk away from a couple of decent
incomes and destructive human relationships because of the culture of
war they brought with them. Somehow, expressing truth in the moment
was never enough, the war raged on. In retrospect, I can see that
what I was walking to when walking away was far better, but at the
time, the path was forming as my foot hit the exit doorway in the
walking away. I've never been comfortable in that scenario, but I can
now see it has payed off for me in the long run. It always starts
with listening to my gut.
An interesting time we live in, with our education, political and
financial systems no longer serving us. With eyes blurred from Rome
burning, it is hard to see what is coming for us. What I do know is
we are a resilient lot, and something will. The education system does
suck, my youngest is still in University and has always struggled with
the system. He will get his BA in May with honors, something he never
experienced in the younger grades. Somehow, he made it work out of a
desire for a good life.
Myself, I found a way to make it work while still doing my own thing
in the University, but after being told by the English Dept to find a
different course of study. I was lucky that there was a more creative
"alternative" available or I would probably have quit. I did see
(what seemed to me) the brightest teachers struggling with the
bureaucracy of their profession. But it seems to me we all struggle
with that, even my husband, the Chiropractor, who is in practice by
himself. If we live in community, we adapt to the rules, regs, norms,
laws, while expressing ourselves the best we can. Seems to me that
finding a lasting harmony there is the real trick, no matter the
details of it.
rigsy03
Feb 2, 2012, 7:32:24 AM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
Yes- it is about harmony- understanding it and finding it.
> > > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
archytas
Feb 2, 2012, 8:39:22 AM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
Much to agree with on what we might call fudge and mudge. Things
certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model and its
people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what
facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to an
end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but anti-
corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often
preventing the actual desired purpose.
One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the
right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual
work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some
distress to standard philosophical considerations where the argument
made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business
ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - these
days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load of
tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, always a
source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to debate
critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take this
into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide note.
Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise agreements
even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and standards.
"Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets
sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs
something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', but I'm
afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that can't
work.
I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly
says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all
practical argument and is what science excludes from its
considerations.
certainly seem to have become much worse as the business model and its
people have moved in. What I want to know more about is what
facilitates the corruption and, of course, what might bring it to an
end. This should be a key issue in organisational design, but anti-
corruption becomes a self-serving bureaucracy in-itself, often
preventing the actual desired purpose.
One of the naive issues ejucation is replete with is teaching the
right way to do things without reference to what goes on in actual
work situations and power-relations. Many of us respond with some
distress to standard philosophical considerations where the argument
made is only possible because of what is excluded. In business
ejucation this is referred to as the learning transfer problem - these
days no one dares to say the 'learning material' itself is a load of
tosh (shades of the worst of religion). My mature students, always a
source of inspiration, have often said they enjoy being able to debate
critical concerns and that they hope I don't expect them to take this
into the workplace where this would be an effective job-suicide note.
Whistle-blowers are now being paid off through compromise agreements
even in bodies responsible for supervising complaints and standards.
"Harmony" is a hair spray rigsy! Not a bad metaphor for what gets
sprayed over the problems. My feeling is the rotten orchard needs
something stronger. The situation is 'Emperor's New Clothes', but I'm
afraid the child's voice ending and everything fine after that can't
work.
I'm not concerned much on a personal basis, largely on what Molly
says. I suspect the stuff of this corruption prevents almost all
practical argument and is what science excludes from its
considerations.
Vam
Feb 2, 2012, 11:33:55 AM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
Freedom from corruption is actually the easiest of things to achieve.
The top man needs to honest, fair, sincere, secure and sharing.
The top man needs to honest, fair, sincere, secure and sharing.
Allan H
Feb 2, 2012, 2:37:12 PM2/2/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I just read Vam's comments are right on,, if I could have only one wish for mankind that would be it. "Freedom from corruption".. (sigh;; To dream the impossible dream...)
It could be easy, but what can I say,, that is not the idea or response of the top men or at least that what they appear to avoid at all costs.
Allan
Molly
Feb 2, 2012, 5:28:25 PM2/2/12
to "Minds Eye"
Literally hits home for me, Neil, as Detroit becomes the first US city
to go bankrupt after years of accepted corruption by a gang of
politicians and cronies accepted by voters until the Feds came in and
the ousting began (thanks to actions by the press, not the Feds
initially.) What is it in each of us that needs to cheat, condemn,
lie, engage cruelty, gossip, etc., Why does it all inspire more of
the same in a group? How do we stop it? Good questions. The answer
to the question "where to begin" might be revealing.
to go bankrupt after years of accepted corruption by a gang of
politicians and cronies accepted by voters until the Feds came in and
the ousting began (thanks to actions by the press, not the Feds
initially.) What is it in each of us that needs to cheat, condemn,
lie, engage cruelty, gossip, etc., Why does it all inspire more of
the same in a group? How do we stop it? Good questions. The answer
to the question "where to begin" might be revealing.
Allan H
Feb 3, 2012, 2:04:00 AM2/3/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Hmmm that sounds like the much like the US congress.. itis strange how they amass massive fortunes on a $400,000.oo salaries. {I know Joe Kennedy was in the whiskery trade
when it was on the illegal side.
the amounts of fortunes politicians gain has got to be comming from some place .. It is good to hear that Detroit is changing, although I think the crooks are just out side the door waiting. Maybe all politicians should have to disclose property and finances for their entire families on a yearly basis making tose record public.. and a department where citizens can go to have the questionable investigated. Corruption in politics is rampant in the US.
Allan
rigsy03
Feb 3, 2012, 7:39:51 AM2/3/12
to "Minds Eye"
I think it starts in the family asap but that assumes the parents are
the examples to emulate. Many children are "parked" in school as sort
of a baby-sitting service. I don't think modern politics is much of a
worthy inspiration- maybe emerging countries will design a better
model. I fear the press is being gobbled up by economic losses, bias,
soundbites and the internet- the latter reminds me of a school of
sardines in a constant swirl.//I thought later that some of the
examples I have encountered had a common denominator- they were the
eldest child- female- from a large family so maybe it's all about the
pecking order and competition.
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
the examples to emulate. Many children are "parked" in school as sort
of a baby-sitting service. I don't think modern politics is much of a
worthy inspiration- maybe emerging countries will design a better
model. I fear the press is being gobbled up by economic losses, bias,
soundbites and the internet- the latter reminds me of a school of
sardines in a constant swirl.//I thought later that some of the
examples I have encountered had a common denominator- they were the
eldest child- female- from a large family so maybe it's all about the
pecking order and competition.
rigsy03
Feb 3, 2012, 7:46:55 AM2/3/12
to "Minds Eye"
Kennedy was also involved in illegal something or other in the stock
market- one reason he got that financial position is that he knew how
to manipulate it. Anyway, could never figure his attachment to Gloria
Swanson (yikes!) while Rose had child after child and retreated to her
rosary. Well- maybe a rosary is less stressful. :-)
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
market- one reason he got that financial position is that he knew how
to manipulate it. Anyway, could never figure his attachment to Gloria
Swanson (yikes!) while Rose had child after child and retreated to her
rosary. Well- maybe a rosary is less stressful. :-)
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
archytas
Feb 3, 2012, 10:42:35 AM2/3/12
to "Minds Eye"
I've ceased to believe that corruption stems from the top or that the
good leader is as Vam states (though this would be very welcome in
practice). I've generally held to Harry Bosch's (Michael Connelly
detective) motto 'everyone counts or no one does' in my work. I
suspect in me this comes from Xtian stories. If we want decent people
at the top one would expect the values Vam espouses to be those valued
and practiced throughout - in fact we laud something else altogether.
I go with a lot rigsy says on the problem being based in apparently
innocuous practices. Further on, imagine joining a political party
with the idea of becoming a councillor or MP (etc.) It's a total
pain and its also not too hard to imagine how easy it is for money
(and potentially the interests of other governments) can influence the
early selection of candidates. The very structures of organising play
their part - and deeper my guess is we don't need the kind of
leadership that arises in these systems and that is more to do with
our primate past than we know.
> ...
>
> read more »
good leader is as Vam states (though this would be very welcome in
practice). I've generally held to Harry Bosch's (Michael Connelly
detective) motto 'everyone counts or no one does' in my work. I
suspect in me this comes from Xtian stories. If we want decent people
at the top one would expect the values Vam espouses to be those valued
and practiced throughout - in fact we laud something else altogether.
I go with a lot rigsy says on the problem being based in apparently
innocuous practices. Further on, imagine joining a political party
with the idea of becoming a councillor or MP (etc.) It's a total
pain and its also not too hard to imagine how easy it is for money
(and potentially the interests of other governments) can influence the
early selection of candidates. The very structures of organising play
their part - and deeper my guess is we don't need the kind of
leadership that arises in these systems and that is more to do with
our primate past than we know.
>
> read more »
Allan H
Feb 3, 2012, 1:43:24 PM2/3/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
It is the top or head that guides the body.. or are the feet what is responsible in guiding the body,, making all the decisions as to the direction of travel?
Allan
Vam
Feb 4, 2012, 1:18:47 AM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
Was watching " The Scent Of A Woman " yesterday. Pacino is late middle
age, blind and yet very ' military ' in how he sounds. Towards the
end, he's in New York during Thanksgiving with a high school
youngster, Charlie, who has been charged by school authorities with
grave misconduct along with few others. Since an indictment by the
School Committee would be huge setback to his further studies, he is
caught in a bind at a luring proposal to gain admission in Harvard if
he would squeal on others. The other co-accused are heirs to much
influence and money, which were actually at work then upon school
authorities and Committee members to go lenient.
But, in New York, Pacino is finished with his plans for the visit and
is about to end his life, of which he believes he has had his fill.
And, Charlie can't get over the call of his conscience, not to squeal
despite considerable personal loss. Days later, at the trial before
assembled students and teachers, Charlie stays his ground and the
influential are confident of getting away, when Pacino enters, takes
stage, and says :
" At every crossroads in his life, I have always known the right path
to take. But I didn't. You know why ? Because it was too damned hard.
" Charlie is at one such crossroad. He has chosen to take the right
path. Let us help him along. "
That's the only reason we are not honest, fair, sincere, compassionate
and sharing... 1) We do not what is the right thing to do, not just
for ourself. And 2) It's too damned hard to do the right thing, when
there are scores of easier paths to take.
> ...
>
> read more »
age, blind and yet very ' military ' in how he sounds. Towards the
end, he's in New York during Thanksgiving with a high school
youngster, Charlie, who has been charged by school authorities with
grave misconduct along with few others. Since an indictment by the
School Committee would be huge setback to his further studies, he is
caught in a bind at a luring proposal to gain admission in Harvard if
he would squeal on others. The other co-accused are heirs to much
influence and money, which were actually at work then upon school
authorities and Committee members to go lenient.
But, in New York, Pacino is finished with his plans for the visit and
is about to end his life, of which he believes he has had his fill.
And, Charlie can't get over the call of his conscience, not to squeal
despite considerable personal loss. Days later, at the trial before
assembled students and teachers, Charlie stays his ground and the
influential are confident of getting away, when Pacino enters, takes
stage, and says :
" At every crossroads in his life, I have always known the right path
to take. But I didn't. You know why ? Because it was too damned hard.
" Charlie is at one such crossroad. He has chosen to take the right
path. Let us help him along. "
That's the only reason we are not honest, fair, sincere, compassionate
and sharing... 1) We do not what is the right thing to do, not just
for ourself. And 2) It's too damned hard to do the right thing, when
there are scores of easier paths to take.
>
> read more »
Vam
Feb 4, 2012, 1:26:14 AM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
On Feb 4, 11:18 am, Vam <atewari2...@gmail.com> wrote:
Correction :
1) " At every crossroads in MY life, I have always known the right
path
> to take. But I didn't. You know why ? Because it was too damned hard.
2) That's the only reason we are not honest, fair, sincere,
> to take. But I didn't. You know why ? Because it was too damned hard.
compassionate
> and sharing... 1) We do not KNOW what is the right thing to do, not just
>
> read more »
gabbydott
Feb 4, 2012, 8:56:28 AM2/4/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
That's it. From the distance it's always so very easy to make out the right thing.
archytas
Feb 4, 2012, 9:17:38 AM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
I tend to vote with my feet on Pacino vehicles. Literature tends to
existential heroes. I suspect this misses the point even though Vam's
interpretation here stands rather well (the film bored me too quickly
for me to last to interpretation). What I'm looking for is how we get
into obvious contradictions in which argument is stopped in favour of
ideology. Years back I was able to give honest advice to students -
such as telling one he was better suited to one of our best
universities rather than the provincial one I was working in. He
didn't ignore the advice but came to my programme because I'd been
honest with him. He did the first two years with us and then finished
at Manchester. These days I could be sacked for this honest advice.
I broadly accept capitalism; yet one can't justify its excesses, wars
and the utter contradiction between bettering oneself through
accumulating money and equalities of opportunity disappearing to debt
peonage for those without accumulated wealth.
existential heroes. I suspect this misses the point even though Vam's
interpretation here stands rather well (the film bored me too quickly
for me to last to interpretation). What I'm looking for is how we get
into obvious contradictions in which argument is stopped in favour of
ideology. Years back I was able to give honest advice to students -
such as telling one he was better suited to one of our best
universities rather than the provincial one I was working in. He
didn't ignore the advice but came to my programme because I'd been
honest with him. He did the first two years with us and then finished
at Manchester. These days I could be sacked for this honest advice.
I broadly accept capitalism; yet one can't justify its excesses, wars
and the utter contradiction between bettering oneself through
accumulating money and equalities of opportunity disappearing to debt
peonage for those without accumulated wealth.
rigsy03
Feb 4, 2012, 9:24:37 AM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
There may also be an element of curiousity in our nature...back to
that juicy apple, Eve & Adam...or that we are clever enough to beat
the odds. What would happen to repentance and striving to be a better
person? Do our sins create us as much as our virtues?
that juicy apple, Eve & Adam...or that we are clever enough to beat
the odds. What would happen to repentance and striving to be a better
person? Do our sins create us as much as our virtues?
Molly
Feb 4, 2012, 11:21:42 AM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
Don't know why we are presented with the seeming paradox - when what
seems "right" to us seemingly goes "against" what is being presented.
I come back to William Blake more often than not, and in this case
"what seems to be is, for those to whom it seems to be."
In my experience, the bigger picture is helpful. Sometimes all that
is necessary is for us to persevere and continue to express truth as
we know it. Other times, what seems to be deconstruction is an
invitation into something more, and often unseen in the moment. I
have never been comfortable taking the step away from the known and
toward the unknown. But I have learned to live with the discomfort,
and had good results.
> ...
>
> read more »
seems "right" to us seemingly goes "against" what is being presented.
I come back to William Blake more often than not, and in this case
"what seems to be is, for those to whom it seems to be."
In my experience, the bigger picture is helpful. Sometimes all that
is necessary is for us to persevere and continue to express truth as
we know it. Other times, what seems to be deconstruction is an
invitation into something more, and often unseen in the moment. I
have never been comfortable taking the step away from the known and
toward the unknown. But I have learned to live with the discomfort,
and had good results.
>
> read more »
archytas
Feb 4, 2012, 8:22:50 PM2/4/12
to "Minds Eye"
I think my question had a bit of what is literally lying to us in
simple morality. I was watching a piece on Versailles earlier and was
struck how many "human" fetishes have animal forms like Bowery birds,
peacocks and even 'slavery' in ants. I wonder whether the 'lie' is
that the economy must be libidinal..
> ...
>
> read more »
simple morality. I was watching a piece on Versailles earlier and was
struck how many "human" fetishes have animal forms like Bowery birds,
peacocks and even 'slavery' in ants. I wonder whether the 'lie' is
that the economy must be libidinal..
>
> read more »
Lee Douglas
May 9, 2012, 9:18:47 AM5/9/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I think that we can all remember some teacher or even teachers if we are lucky, that had profound effects on our learning andf growing as human beings. Now my schooling was frankly shit but even I can name two teachers who have had such a marked effect on me, even into adult life.
I think most teachers manage to impart a little of their ummm 'non ciriculum' wisdom to their students, at least in my opinion the goods ones do.
Not quite an answer to your question I know.
As far as simple morality goes, heh I think those of us who have spent even a little time looking at the subject, must delcare it a minefield and hence not simple at all.
gabbydott
May 9, 2012, 9:37:08 AM5/9/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
So good to see you back, Lee! I agree, it would be great if we could have a better view of the collateral damage of the imparted non-curriculum wisdom.
Eman Abdulla
May 9, 2012, 9:53:02 AM5/9/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
I can see the dilemma between doing what is ideal or abandoning the
battle field altogether, and I guess doing what one can do and
infusing the rot with insight and skepticism as to the moral
ramifications of vicious capitalism( if I understood you correctly)
would be more effective in helping the next generations come up with
their own solutions and possibly affecting change that our generation
could not help. I don't think that it is only morality that is being
compromised in today's economy, but long term efficiency. Economic
policy that dulls the pain and patches the woes will only backfire
real hard in the future.
battle field altogether, and I guess doing what one can do and
infusing the rot with insight and skepticism as to the moral
ramifications of vicious capitalism( if I understood you correctly)
would be more effective in helping the next generations come up with
their own solutions and possibly affecting change that our generation
could not help. I don't think that it is only morality that is being
compromised in today's economy, but long term efficiency. Economic
policy that dulls the pain and patches the woes will only backfire
real hard in the future.
rigsy03
May 10, 2012, 8:10:32 AM5/10/12
to "Minds Eye"
But what will individual "authority" on morals change? Situation
ethics? Is the USA president a "moral authority"? The Pope? The New
York Times? How does conscience develop and does it matter if one has
one in an immoral society? What if doing the right thing ruins your
life? Or your income? Do civil laws matter, for that matter? Aren't
they biased? The minority must go along with the majority whether they
agree or not with policy and support it with behavior (silence) and
funding (taxes). Why do you consider capitalism "vicious"? Versus
what? Can a Democracy be vicious? Why or why not?
On May 9, 8:53 am, Eman Abdulla <emana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see the dilemma between doing what is ideal or abandoning the
> battle field altogether, and I guess doing what one can do and
> infusing the rot with insight and skepticism as to the moral
> ramifications of vicious capitalism( if I understood you correctly)
> would be more effective in helping the next generations come up with
> their own solutions and possibly affecting change that our generation
> could not help. I don't think that it is only morality that is being
> compromised in today's economy, but long term efficiency. Economic
> policy that dulls the pain and patches the woes will only backfire
> real hard in the future.
>
> >>> away, putting distance between oneself and the madness.- Hide quoted text -
ethics? Is the USA president a "moral authority"? The Pope? The New
York Times? How does conscience develop and does it matter if one has
one in an immoral society? What if doing the right thing ruins your
life? Or your income? Do civil laws matter, for that matter? Aren't
they biased? The minority must go along with the majority whether they
agree or not with policy and support it with behavior (silence) and
funding (taxes). Why do you consider capitalism "vicious"? Versus
what? Can a Democracy be vicious? Why or why not?
On May 9, 8:53 am, Eman Abdulla <emana...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I can see the dilemma between doing what is ideal or abandoning the
> battle field altogether, and I guess doing what one can do and
> infusing the rot with insight and skepticism as to the moral
> ramifications of vicious capitalism( if I understood you correctly)
> would be more effective in helping the next generations come up with
> their own solutions and possibly affecting change that our generation
> could not help. I don't think that it is only morality that is being
> compromised in today's economy, but long term efficiency. Economic
> policy that dulls the pain and patches the woes will only backfire
> real hard in the future.
>
> On 5/9/12, gabbydott <gabbyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So good to see you back, Lee! I agree, it would be great if we could have a
> > better view of the collateral damage of the imparted non-curriculum wisdom.
>
>
>
>
> > So good to see you back, Lee! I agree, it would be great if we could have a
> > better view of the collateral damage of the imparted non-curriculum wisdom.
>
Lee Douglas
May 10, 2012, 8:18:22 AM5/10/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Why the divison here Gabs? I mean all morality is individual. National morality or cultural morality is really in the field of ethics isn't it? In that case then nobody can be a moral authority on anything but their own morality.
Lee Douglas
May 10, 2012, 8:19:46 AM5/10/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Soooo sorry. Rigs not Gabs. Yes I am back for a little while Gabs, new job, but only a couple of weeks contract.
pol.science kid
May 10, 2012, 2:05:47 PM5/10/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
Great to see you Lee, I totally know what you mean by 'non curriculum' wisdom,teachers dont realise the lasting effects they can have on students. One of my English teacher taught me an important lesson, it went into shaping my attitude to some things....
--
EverComing
EverComing
Allan H
May 10, 2012, 2:09:55 PM5/10/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
You are right teachers actually have a lasting effect. I see the effects of specific actions.even years later.
Allan
Eman Abdulla
May 10, 2012, 5:04:58 PM5/10/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
My problem with public forums is that I tend to assume that certain
concepts are givens when in fact they are not and I thank you for
bringing this to my attention. I am not one to oversimplify but I do
think that there is a such a thing as basic morality that includes
notions such as giving others rights and liberties that people expect
for themselves. I know that has not always been the case and is still
not the case in most parts of the world, but I believe that we reached
a level of maturity as a species to recognize that power is not a
license to abuse and that the minority is entitled to the same rights
as the majority. I think that capitalism in its absolute form lacks
the checks and balances that will ensure that the powerful and the
wealthy will not exploit the weak to increase profit, and there is no
shortage of examples whether it be the recent economic crisis or
worldwide in resource rich places like Africa. In this complex and
interrelated world of ours, so many variables and consequences need to
be taken into account when making a decision in order to attain a
level of moral integrity. However, the basic guidelines are the same
and they have more to do with the state of the heart as free of
malignant bias and greed and capable of empathizing with others who
may be different.
I don't think a single figure can ever act as a representative of
morality, but it is a collective code that has to be revised with
every generation but it still has to emanate from the ability to
empathize and balance the wellfare of the individual with the
wellbeing of society as it is today and as it will be handed over to
future generations.
concepts are givens when in fact they are not and I thank you for
bringing this to my attention. I am not one to oversimplify but I do
think that there is a such a thing as basic morality that includes
notions such as giving others rights and liberties that people expect
for themselves. I know that has not always been the case and is still
not the case in most parts of the world, but I believe that we reached
a level of maturity as a species to recognize that power is not a
license to abuse and that the minority is entitled to the same rights
as the majority. I think that capitalism in its absolute form lacks
the checks and balances that will ensure that the powerful and the
wealthy will not exploit the weak to increase profit, and there is no
shortage of examples whether it be the recent economic crisis or
worldwide in resource rich places like Africa. In this complex and
interrelated world of ours, so many variables and consequences need to
be taken into account when making a decision in order to attain a
level of moral integrity. However, the basic guidelines are the same
and they have more to do with the state of the heart as free of
malignant bias and greed and capable of empathizing with others who
may be different.
I don't think a single figure can ever act as a representative of
morality, but it is a collective code that has to be revised with
every generation but it still has to emanate from the ability to
empathize and balance the wellfare of the individual with the
wellbeing of society as it is today and as it will be handed over to
future generations.
rigsy03
May 12, 2012, 8:21:52 AM5/12/12
to "Minds Eye"
Thank you. However...what is this basic morality and fairness? All
along the way judgements are made about distributing rights and
liberties. Where does capitalism exist in its absolute form? Maybe
only in books.// Finally, empathy can also be a mask to cover the
tension between self-interest and working towards the general good of
a unit or society.
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
along the way judgements are made about distributing rights and
liberties. Where does capitalism exist in its absolute form? Maybe
only in books.// Finally, empathy can also be a mask to cover the
tension between self-interest and working towards the general good of
a unit or society.
rigsy03
May 12, 2012, 8:28:25 AM5/12/12
to "Minds Eye"
Single figures do promote their views of morality- Moses- Jesus-
Mohammed- as well as warriors and writers, etc. but they need a system
and vocabulary to entice followers/adherents plus a system of
punishments and rewards.
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Mohammed- as well as warriors and writers, etc. but they need a system
and vocabulary to entice followers/adherents plus a system of
punishments and rewards.
Eman Abdulla
May 12, 2012, 9:13:51 PM5/12/12
to mind...@googlegroups.com
The way I see it is that we are complex beings that are endowed with
conflicting impulses having to do with self preservation,
ethnocentricity, and ever widening circles of concern for our human
kin and our environment and living beings, but the further the circle,
the weaker the impulse to act in order to preserve it and the more
complicated decisions become as to whose interest is a priority, to
what degree, and what level of urgency is required to take action.
Morality is an evolving collective code that is contextual, but is
guided by basic human feelings and concerns, what may be called
ethical sensibility. Although it canges with time, basic albeit loose
guidelines remain the same as all visionary leaders talked of freedom,
equality, justice, and compassion. Each, however, had a different take
on such principles as was needed at the time. I think a visionary, far
outside the confines of time and social context will be deemed insane
and won't be given any weight.
As for capitalism, we seem to have very different views of it. I see
it as flawed at best, and in need of reform , in a sense less greed
and more empathy. I agree that empathy can be a mask, but true empathy
does exist and it is the reason why the poor and the weak( i.e those
deemed useless) are not all starving in the streets.
conflicting impulses having to do with self preservation,
ethnocentricity, and ever widening circles of concern for our human
kin and our environment and living beings, but the further the circle,
the weaker the impulse to act in order to preserve it and the more
complicated decisions become as to whose interest is a priority, to
what degree, and what level of urgency is required to take action.
Morality is an evolving collective code that is contextual, but is
guided by basic human feelings and concerns, what may be called
ethical sensibility. Although it canges with time, basic albeit loose
guidelines remain the same as all visionary leaders talked of freedom,
equality, justice, and compassion. Each, however, had a different take
on such principles as was needed at the time. I think a visionary, far
outside the confines of time and social context will be deemed insane
and won't be given any weight.
As for capitalism, we seem to have very different views of it. I see
it as flawed at best, and in need of reform , in a sense less greed
and more empathy. I agree that empathy can be a mask, but true empathy
does exist and it is the reason why the poor and the weak( i.e those
deemed useless) are not all starving in the streets.
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