We are going backwards.

[facilitator]

Article:

"Blaming women for rape is what hundreds of millions of men here are taught to believe.

And the code for women in this country is simple: Dress modestly, don't go out at night, don't go to bars and clubs, don't go out alone. If you break the code, you will be blamed for the consequences.

When one of the four men sentenced to death for the high-profile gang rape of the woman in 2012 was quoted in a new documentary as saying "a girl is far more responsible for rape than a boy," he was repeating something community and religious leaders in this nation of 1.2 billion routinely say.

[archytas]

China?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Tony you act as if this is a big deal. Why do you think i developed the seed  my tagline.? It was developed to direct attack the theology of murder, RAPE  and enslavement. Contrary to what Ms Gabby thinks and is saying.

If you want to confront that theology that is saying murder rape and enslavement of others is serving God as you understand him.. put the seed in your sigline and encourage everyone you know to put it in theirs and pray it hits fertile soil in which it can grow.
Then there is hope that this violent theology can be altered with the grace of God.
 

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

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[allan...@gmail.com]

No it was filmed in India..  with out permission ..  by a news group more interested in ratings than news.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

--

[archytas]

We should probably go Saudi on the matter.  No wait, women driving cars turns us all homosexual there.  Political correctness is an interesting new form of making these dire problems 'invisible'.

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[facilitator]

This has nothing to do with theology or god.  This is about a cultural mindset.  How many rapes have you prevented with your sigline Allan?  To think that that has any influence whatsoever might be part of the problem.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Yes it has a positive effect..  your type of lip flapping only encourages negative activity..
Your actions are the cause of the problem..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com

[archytas]

It might be interesting to know why so many societies have such disgusting ideas and practices concerning women.  One assumes we can't blame feminism for all of it.  

[archytas]

How do you know that Allan?  I have never seen Tony's lips flap, though one can imagine Gabby using the equivalent ear technique as a kind of broomstick air-brake,  

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[facilitator]

On a broader spectrum it appears that the poor treatment of women is endemic to societies that want to travel back in time or have never progressed toward this century.

Some type of psycho sexual de-evolution.

[facilitator]

...though one can imagine Gabby using the equivalent ear technique as a kind of broomstick air-brake,  

Wow.   That's visually funny. (and disturbing) 

[archytas]

I understand everyone who has seen this died laughing.

[polly skid]

It wasn't a news group. It's a   documentary by a brit woman. Udwin something. It's called daughters of India....

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[facilitator]

That's encouraging RP.

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 12:30:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh wrote:

It is not the majority view, but that of deranged, uneducated and fundamentalists. Such people are always doing something evil in the name of culture, what do such people know of culture. We have a rich heritage of  giving respect to women if we look in not so ancient India, when muslim raiders came from the west and stole women  a little purdah system developed as a defence, and in the course of time evils in society also developed, but by the good works done by social reformers from amongst us much of our evil treatment of our women was abolished. It is in the nature of humans to rationalize their venomous intentions by putting the blame on the victim. The majority of our people are not like that, they are tolerant and free and that is the reason that we are progressing greatly.

--

[polly skid]

Hate to say this RP.. But majority of people are NOT tolerant...  An hour into the streets of most areas of Delhi or even most parts of north india would make it clear... Maybe you stay in better parts...

[polly skid]

Sorry.. I don't mean the word tolerant.. what are 'they' supposed to be 'tolerant' of anyways.. That females exist and move about by will?? ...

[allan...@gmail.com]

Thank you for the history lesson..india is a very fascinating people,culture and country..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

It is not the majority view, but that of deranged, uneducated and fundamentalists. Such people are always doing something evil in the name of culture, what do such people know of culture. We have a rich heritage of  giving respect to women if we look in not so ancient India, when muslim raiders came from the west and stole women  a little purdah system developed as a defence, and in the course of time evils in society also developed, but by the good works done by social reformers from amongst us much of our evil treatment of our women was abolished. It is in the nature of humans to rationalize their venomous intentions by putting the blame on the victim. The majority of our people are not like that, they are tolerant and free and that is the reason that we are progressing greatly.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 12:58 AM, archytas <nwt...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[polly skid]

Why should i need protection if i wear western attire..?and by that logic wearing 'indian attire' doesnt call for 'protection'..if you wear it ? Comparing India with Taliban aint a very great idea. We are moving forward(in time) because thats what people do/countries do.. Plus who is criticizing 'india' dude...?? I dont get the point of getting masses and democracy. It's a fact that if youre a woman in Delhi youre quite unsafe. One cant even call any cab or board any bus.. The problems of course go much further than anything that is written here. Arguing about the 'greatness' of india's heritage, democracy , culture doesnt do shit....

On Mar 5, 2015 2:35 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

If you are wearing western attire and moving about the streets of Delhi who protects you, it is the people of India. India is a democracy and the government can function only if they are chosen by the people. Whatever politicians might be they know that they are answerable to the people and are ruling with peoples' mandate. Day by day we are moving forward, are we doing so by subjugating the masses? Our former Prime Minister Indira Gandhi tried to play the despot and lost the next election, she learned the lesson and corrected herself. Polly Taliban does not exist here , some people are trying to do that in the name of culture and are unsuccessful. Do the majority in India want fundamentalism, surely not!

[polly skid]

Leave Delhi.. Remember the UP village case where two teenage sisters were raped and hanged from a tree? Already forgotten by most people.

[archytas]

There are issues of cultural relativism I don't like.  It comes down to Gabby's "No" on some things.  There are disgusting practices everywhere,  We have real problems in Britain in our ethnic minority communities, including the problem that political correctness has made it difficult to raise the issues.  And we can't look at the problems we cause and what is disgusting about us.  We have problems establishing the moral ground because we soak up culture and venerate it.  RP is right to point out this isn't 'all India' and if we look at victims everywhere there is nothing to be reassured about.  The way we make these and other problems "invisible" would be good to know more on.  Apart from fascist notions (in wide use) that we are stupid and need repeated sloganising, the academy is very quiet.  There are gang rape clubs in Japan and I dealt with a case here (35 years back) in which the 6 males were 12 - 15 and the girl 15.  False accusations are not uncommon either.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

I remember the incident.. but i know very little

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: polly skid <r.fre...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:44 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Yes bad things occur every where  but not that brutal ..  the incident was very sick..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----

From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 11:33 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

Such instances happen everywhere in the world. There are streets in New York where you cannot move about. Girls are, and yes even children are forcefully put into prostitution and are drugged and made to do things which go against civilization. Are they being done by Indians only? Everyone needs protection from the animals and savages among us, and you are not unique in that. Western countries might be better in some sense, but we are in others. If you are talking about Delhi, you are doing so as if it was crawling with monsters, but there are monsters everywhere. In developed countries they have better systems of control, and as we progress we will learn to control the animals here as well.

I have just read Archytas and he has given a good  explanation.

[polly skid]

Don't use animals and rapists synonymously. What is your point when you say women in other places are vulnerable? Its quite obvious.. We all live in this world and are aware of what happens in other places too.. The point of reference is the documentary and Delhi. Maybe extending it to other parts of India. Nobody ever said only Indian men rape. I don't know who you are defending 'india' against... When you say 'you are not unique 'in demanding protection.. Are you talking to me(when did i demand protection;when i said delhi is unsafe??) , or do you mean all womankind when you say 'you are  not unique in demanding protection'? As far as i gather Udwin is saying through the  documentary that most men in india are not raised to respect women as equals and that's a contributing factor in increased rapes, hardly about controlling some random 'savages' out to get women and children. Maybe you should actually watch the documentary. Might help bring some perspective.

On Mar 5, 2015 4:03 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

Such instances happen everywhere in the world. There are streets in New York where you cannot move about. Girls are, and yes even children are forcefully put into prostitution and are drugged and made to do things which go against civilization. Are they being done by Indians only? Everyone needs protection from the animals and savages among us, and you are not unique in that. Western countries might be better in some sense, but we are in others. If you are talking about Delhi, you are doing so as if it was crawling with monsters, but there are monsters everywhere. In developed countries they have better systems of control, and as we progress we will learn to control the animals here as well.

I have just read Archytas and he has given a good  explanation.

[polly skid]

Udwin is a woman.

On Mar 5, 2015 4:44 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

That documentary has been banned and I don't read banned stuff because it is mostly prejudiced and sensational. The maker is simply creating a storm to make money. When that incident happened everyone was shocked, and by raising that subject again by talking to a perpetrator of the crime what did the producer want? If he was really concerned he should have talked to people on the road and not a savage who had no concern for others but only blaming the victim. Everyone needs protection, I as well. It is society through the government that provides protection against criminals and scoundrels. There are other type of savages who loot all your money and put you on the road, there are savages in uniform who implicate you in criminal cases, everyone needs protection and you are not unique in that. You can make India a better place to live in, just why don't you try to do that?

[Allan H]

Along does is provide a platform to encourage other so the too can gt their 5 minutes of fame.  The feed on public revulsion.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

That documentary has been banned and I don't read banned stuff because it is mostly prejudiced and sensational. The maker is simply creating a storm to make money. When that incident happened everyone was shocked, and by raising that subject again by talking to a perpetrator of the crime what did the producer want? If he was really concerned he should have talked to people on the road and not a savage who had no concern for others but only blaming the victim. Everyone needs protection, I as well. It is society through the government that provides protection against criminals and scoundrels. There are other type of savages who loot all your money and put you on the road, there are savages in uniform who implicate you in criminal cases, everyone needs protection and you are not unique in that. You can make India a better place to live in, just why don't you try to do that?

[Molly]

"We have a rich heritage of giving respect to women" reminds me of US southerners saying "we were good to those slaves," a phrase passed down through generations of southerners and even the children repeated it. None see the ludicrous nature of the statement.  Maybe in the old school Indian mindset "respect to women" means something different to the younger generation or even a different culture. I've seen my share of immigrant men from India in the US corporate culture struggle with women in positions of authority and understand that is not part of the mindset. Understanding doesn't make relations easier. And comments like Neil's "RP is right" after such a statement only contributes to the global culture of acceptance that women are less than. Job and pay comparisons between men and women in the US workforce are still not good and attitudes like these contribute.  We look away not only from the horrible violence but the subtle forms exerted in our every day life. It is the looking away as a collective of the subtle forms that guarantees the continuation of violence and discrimination.

Someone who commits to carry on in spite of these obstacles needs to do so with eyes wide open, and will learn the hard way when to take a stand and when to resolve the immediate conflict as best they can and move on. I agree with Pol, anyone who says "rape is everywhere" is looking away from the clear and immediate problem of rape they are facing. We can remain unconcerned, or use our voice when the opportunity arises. Ultimately, all we can do is what we can do in the moment. Pacification and avoidance contributes to the problem and is a large part of the continuance of the problem. Ultimately, if our compassion is not enough, we break our own hearts. And sometimes that compassion needs to be all encompassing.

Udwin is a woman.

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[Molly]

WOW. Just wow.

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:53:47 AM UTC-5, RP Singh wrote:

"Evil is everywhere"  This statement is just made to make clear that you cannot talk about a specific country or city in isolation. Your point that women are exploited everywhere is valid and it requires consideration by all and most of all by women. Whenever there is exploitation the exploited have to fight for their rights as it happened during the independence movements in former colonies, it is another thing that some people join in your fight and help you. In America things have moved far from the time of the civil war, you might have a lady President for the first time in your long history, which just go to show that the society as a whole is progressing. If you look closely you will find that women have been women's greatest enemies, and now that the time has come to unite and assert, I am sure that very soon women's grievances will be addressed.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Molly <moll...@gmail.com> wrote:

"We have a rich heritage of giving respect to women" reminds me of US southerners saying "we were good to those slaves," a phrase passed down through generations of southerners and even the children repeated it. None see the ludicrous nature of the statement.  Maybe in the old school Indian mindset "respect to women" means something different to the younger generation or even a different culture. I've seen my share of immigrant men from India in the US corporate culture struggle with women in positions of authority and understand that is not part of the mindset. Understanding doesn't make relations easier. And comments like Neil's "RP is right" after such a statement only contributes to the global culture of acceptance that women are less capable of performing in positions of authority. Job and pay comparisons between men and women in the US workforce are still not good and attitudes like these contribute.  We look away not only from the horrible violence but the subtle forms exerted in our every day life. It is the looking away as a collective of the subtle forms that guarantees the continuation of violence and discrimination.

[Molly]

A very sad case indeed, Pol. There is much there to invoke outrage. And RP's crack about women being the worst enemy for women has the tone of these rapists flinging insults about the victim. But I cannot say I agree that the film looks to be someone preying on the victim to get their own 5 minutes of fame.  Looks as if the film makers took a tough stand to try to bring attention to the problem. And the problem looks to be, at least in part, that blaming the victim is so accepted in all parts of culture that we don't even recognize it when we see it, or sometimes say it. I can feel deep compassion for the mother when she says that she can't be hurt worse by their words after her daughter died in her arms as a result of their violent actions. How do we bring attention to the atrocity of cultural acceptance of not only this kind of violence but the gender inequity that perpetuates it?

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 8:59:06 AM UTC-5, pol.science kid wrote:

http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/i-wish-judiciary-govt-did-more-than-just-ban-a-film/

On Mar 5, 2015 4:44 PM, "RP Singh" <123...@gmail.com> wrote:

That documentary has been banned and I don't read banned stuff because it is mostly prejudiced and sensational. The maker is simply creating a storm to make money. When that incident happened everyone was shocked, and by raising that subject again by talking to a perpetrator of the crime what did the producer want? If he was really concerned he should have talked to people on the road and not a savage who had no concern for others but only blaming the victim. Everyone needs protection, I as well. It is society through the government that provides protection against criminals and scoundrels. There are other type of savages who loot all your money and put you on the road, there are savages in uniform who implicate you in criminal cases, everyone needs protection and you are not unique in that. You can make India a better place to live in, just why don't you try to do that?

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[polly skid]

I don't want to say anything on this anymore. But i guess if one were looking to get some change.. It starts from the family... And friends...

On Mar 5, 2015 7:56 PM, "Molly" <moll...@gmail.com> wrote:

A very sad case indeed, Pol. There is much there to invoke outrage. And RP's crack about women being the worst enemy for women has the tone of these rapists flinging insults about the victim. But I cannot say I agree that the film looks to be someone preying on the victim to get their own 5 minutes of fame.  Looks as if the film makers took a tough stand to try to bring attention to the problem. And the problem looks to be, at least in part, that blaming the victim is so accepted in all parts of culture that we don't even recognize it when we see it, or sometimes say it. I can feel deep compassion for the mother when she says that she can't be hurt worse by their words after her daughter died in her arms after their violent actions. How do we bring attention to the atrocity of cultural acceptance of not only this kind of violence but the gender inequity that perpetuates it?

[polly skid]

To RP'  statement. Absolutely man... There are no women presidents becos all they do is fight each other and then... sleep... Fighting is tiring as you know..

[Molly]

Grass roots change, in my experience, changes the world.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Agreed.
Grass roots is where real change begins..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Molly <moll...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

[facilitator]

What the hell does the US having a woman president have to do with rape?  We haven't had an oriental president either. Hell, we haven't even had a black president yet.

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:03:56 AM UTC-5, RP Singh wrote:

There has been rampant dowry harassment of many young brides by the in-laws, but the greatest harassment has mostly been done by the mother-in-law. Women are actually the women's greatest enemies. America has 50% women population and in their long history they are yet to have a woman president. Are women actually sleeping or maybe somewhere they think that men would make better leaders.

On Thu, Mar 5, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Molly <moll...@gmail.com> wrote:

A very sad case indeed, Pol. There is much there to invoke outrage. And RP's crack about women being the worst enemy for women has the tone of these rapists flinging insults about the victim. But I cannot say I agree that the film looks to be someone preying on the victim to get their own 5 minutes of fame.  Looks as if the film makers took a tough stand to try to bring attention to the problem. And the problem looks to be, at least in part, that blaming the victim is so accepted in all parts of culture that we don't even recognize it when we see it, or sometimes say it. I can feel deep compassion for the mother when she says that she can't be hurt worse by their words after her daughter died in her arms after their violent actions. How do we bring attention to the atrocity of cultural acceptance of not only this kind of violence but the gender inequity that perpetuates it?

[Molly]

Maybe they are too busy fighting among themselves and sleeping too.

[archytas]

Women often were blocks to the emancipation movement.  Pankhurst herself was appalled at the sexual abuse revealed as people registered births, fathers often the father of a daughter's child and so on (she worked as a registrar).  One of the ig issues in this stuff concerns not conflating cultural relativism and a more absolute form of human rights,  It is interesting this documentary was banned and it is typical of the way we push the unacceptable away, a Freudian concept RP must be aware of.  Violence is rooted much deeper in our societies than we will admit.to.    

[Molly]

Right there. thanks for making my point for me. both of you.

[archytas]

The Lele used to provide a village woman for the use of unmarried men.  In many sub-Saharan territories most of the work was done by women, with men controlling them through marriage, in order to produce workers and progeny. In Japan, the heroes of some comics are rapists.  One in five women in the US is likely to be raped in her lifetime - http://www.rccmsc.org/resources/get-the-facts.aspx - the figures seem lower in the UK - http://www.rapecrisis.org.uk/Statistics2.php - these figures seem higher than I would expect from experience.  The numbers make me sick.  We should get some proper research done.

[allan...@gmail.com]

I do not think society as a whole will ever change. But i do believe small groups of enlightened people both can and will. They will create communities within society in general. Hidden in plain sight taking advantage of the existing infrastructure.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: archytas <nwt...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

[facilitator]

And being completely useless.  They were called monasteries.

[allan...@gmail.com]

Really which monastery order do you you belong to Tony?

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: "'facilitator' via \"Minds Eye\"" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, 05 Mar 2015 10:33 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

[facilitator]

The Holy Mother Frockers.

[frantheman]

The idea that men and women are equal and have fundamental human rights, among them the freedom to control their own sexuality - and not to have that sexuality controlled by anyone else - has its origins in the Enlightenment (though of course roots can be found in many older traditions). It has spread worldwide from the "West" - the colonial, material and cultural hegemony which the "West" (Europe and North America) has established throughout the world in the past 300 years or so has many consequences, some negative, some positive, most now irreversible. it has taken generations for the practical consequences of this basic recognition of equality and autonomy to work themseves out. In most western countries women have only obtained the vote in the past hundred and twenty years. The recognition and practical application of these basic rights mean a continual cultural revolution which is by no means at an end.

It's 55 years ago now since the contraceptive pill was first approved in the USA. It has initiated a further fundamental change in human cultures and societies, since now women have a dependable method of control over their fertility. It has meant that sexual relations must no longer be automatically linked with human reproduction. The consequences of this revolution are also still working themselves out.

I am no proponent of cultural imperialism. This, however, does not mean that I am an adherent of value-less cultural relativism. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is a constitutive document of the UN and as such binding for all its members (India was one of the countries which initially voted in favour of it in December 1948).

There is no excuse for rape. The view - which is unfortunately held by many in India (and in many other countries for that matter) - that women invite rape by their dress, or behaviour, is completely illegitimate and a denial of the fundamental human right of sexual autonomy. In this context I would also argue that the general argument put forward in the Islamic tradition that women should cover themselves in public so as not to excite base masculine sexual instincts is also completely reprehensible. The view that women, through their display of sexual attractiveness, provoke men to uncontrolled animalistic behaviour is demeaning - both for men and women.

Different cultures, societies, and countries are a different stages of this process of this fundamental redefinition of sexuality and human relationships - the long journey away from a patriarchal to an egalitarian world. India is in a different place to France, or Saudi Arabia, or the USA, or China, or Nigeria, or Germany. In my native Ireland a referendum will be held this year, the result of which, in all probability, will be the confirmation of the equal legal status of gay marriage. Just another consequence of a deepening understanding of the consequences of the basic human right to sexual autonomy.

From what I have read about it, showing the documentary about the horrific rape and murder of a young woman in Delhi a few years ago could have led to a continuation of the discussion of Indian cultural attitudes - and what is wrong with them. Banning it was a mistake by the Indian authorities - a sign of a failure of nerve perhaps, or a capitulation to a backward cultural attitude. But the discussion will go on nevertheless and with the discussion will come change. 

[frantheman]

If I'm understanding you correctly, RP, one of your major arguments is that it's not fair to single out India on this issue because other countries are just as bad.

This is not a good way to make an argument. It's basically just a version of the situation where a kid is called out for misbehaviour and he/she answers by pointing at another kid and saying, "he did it too, she did something even worse!" It doesn't address the real question.

The real question here is a cultural attitude towards women which seems to be fairly widespread in certain sections of Indian society and the influence this may have had on the Indian authorities re. banning the documentary. In an open society - which India is - it is legitimate to discuss this issue; in a globalised open society, it is perfectly valid for people outside India to also become involved in this discussion. I certainly would not claim that India is a "backward country"; it is the world's largest democracy, a wonderful example of how a post-colonial society can organise itself multi-ethnically, multi-lingually, multi-culturally, multi-religiously, despite huge problems of inequality, poverty, and many potential sources of serious conflict, in a democratic and open manner. Chaotically, often imperfectly ... but it works! And that's something the whole world can only look at in awe and admiration.

But this does not mean that India is perfect, or beyond criticism. And the attitude to women is an Indian problem. I agree it's also a problem in other countries and societies - but that's a matter for another discussion. And as long as India remains an open society - something I expect it to do - this current discussion on attitudes to women, provoked by the horrific rape and the documentary, is only the beginning. This discussion will go on, and move in directions which may prove even more uncomfortable for those holding traditional conservative attitudes. Once the theme of equality and rights in gender issues comes into the arena of public discussion, other questions which are implicit in it will arrive on the agenda sooner or later. What about the issue of parents deciding who their children should marry, for example? India has a growing, well-educated, questioning, young population, networked with the whole world, half of them women. They will ask questions, compare, and ultimately demand. In an open society, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Am Freitag, 6. März 2015 00:07:25 UTC+1 schrieb RP Singh:

If you had read the post to which I had answered You would have known what I meant. The issue was that India is a backward country and are prejudiced against women, I am just pointing out that such a progressive country like america does not treat its women as equal to men, they don't give equal salary or benefits to women. So please stop harping about India and talk about inequality in the world, discrimination in the world, exploitation of women in the world. Make it a global issue and not an issue about India.

[Gabby]

Hey RP, if you are arguing on the basis of structural generalizations, allow me to counter argue on the basis of individualistic generalization. Since a woman is physically weaker than a man and therefore by nature determined to be raped rather than being the rapist, it should be allowed to balance this inequality by handing out firearms to all women and only women to be able to effectively help the state and the legal system to enforce the desired factual equality. How do you like my idea? Okay, I admit, it is slightly inspired by the American logic. Nevertheless, what do you think?

[allan...@gmail.com]

Rape is no fun no matter which gender you are ..  your solution is to empower women to commit murder..  but you are screaming murder rape enslavement NO NO NO

Your solution is for women to commit murder..  my solution is to try and install a moral compass in everyone's head  that murder rape and enslavement is wrong..

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

[gabbydott]

No, I'm asking why you are not correcting your sig lines. And I'm asking why Neil talked you into the weakening of the No. And I'm asking why Molly is completely ignorant about a No that is not her No. Bigotry, hypocracy, double-morals would be my key words here.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Avoid means do not take that path..  it translates better and more accurately..  you complained like crazy when it said do not..avoid is actually a better than do not because it avoids who are you to tell me what to do syndrome..
Seven words can do more than entire sermons for the simple reason they are easy to recall. Once planted in a persons head the become a simple rock solid foundation on which to build morality whether fundamentalist or modern.
If you want society to change away from a course of self destruction  you begin by quietly planting a different morality.. to combat those who promote rape, murder or enslavement of others..
Oddly those same 7 words apply to all cultures .. not just one..

[allan...@gmail.com]

Incidentally Gabby avoid is a much stronger and more powerful word than No because it make you responsible for your choices.  Including what you tell others to do.

[gabbydott]

Very "liberal" to always be very concerned about your choices and how that effects what you tell others, yes.

[archytas]

 

  avoid (v.)

c.1300, from Anglo-French avoider "to clear out, withdraw (oneself)," partially anglicized from Old French esvuidier "to empty out," from es- "out" (see ex-) + vuidier "to be empty," from voide "empty, vast, wide, hollow, waste" (see void (adj.)). Originally a law term; modern sense of "have nothing to do with" also was in Middle English and corresponds to Old French eviter with which it was perhaps confused. Meaning "escape, evade" first attested 1520s. Related: Avoided; avoiding.

You are such a tease Gabby, a bit llike Max who loves chasing the flyin squirrel he got for Sue's birthday, but won't let go long enough for anyone to throw it for him.  Are you looking for promotion to Enigma?

Giving women guns - I get the point and would be in favour.

 

 

    

On Friday, 6 March 2015 09:21:34 UTC, Allan Heretic wrote:

Incidentally Gabby avoid is a much stronger and more powerful word than No because it make you responsible for your choices.  Including what you tell others to do.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: gabbydott <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: "mind...@googlegroups.com" <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 9:43 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

No, I'm asking why you are not correcting your sig lines. And I'm asking why Neil talked you into the weakening of the No. And I'm asking why Molly is completely ignorant about a No that is not her No. Bigotry, hypocracy, double-morals would be my key words here.

Am Freitag, 6. März 2015 schrieb :

Rape is no fun no matter which gender you are ..  your solution is to empower women to commit murder..  but you are screaming murder rape enslavement NO NO NO

Your solution is for women to commit murder..  my solution is to try and install a moral compass in everyone's head  that murder rape and enslavement is wrong..


تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabby <gabb...@gmail.com>
To: mind...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 8:44 AM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

Hey RP, if you are arguing on the basis of structural generalizations, allow me to counter argue on the basis of individualistic generalization. Since a woman is physically weaker than a man and therefore by nature determined to be raped rather than being the rapist, it should be allowed to balance this inequality by handing out firearms to all women and only women to be able to effectively help the state and the legal system to enforce the desired factual equality. How do you like my idea? Okay, I admit, it is slightly inspired by the American logic. Nevertheless, what do you think?

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[gabbydott]

I complained when you went from simple-minded but tolerable moralizing "do no harm" to stressing and highlighting the self-evident "do not murder..." and to explicitly address and thereby racially insult Arab-speaking people, yes. 

[gabbydott]

Gabbsing me again to avoid an answer, aren't we Neil?

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[allan...@gmail.com]

AVOID

avoid

• v 1: stay clear from; keep away from; keep out of the way of someone or something; "Her former friends now avoid her" [ant: {confront}]

• 2: prevent the occurrence of; prevent from happening; "Let's avoid a confrontation"; "head off a confrontation"; "avert a strike" [syn: {debar}, {obviate}, {deflect}, {avert}, {head off}, {stave off}, {fend off}, {ward off}]

• 3: refrain from doing something; "She refrains from calling her therapist too often"; "He should avoid publishing his wife's memoires"

• 4: refrain from certain foods or beverages; "I keep off drugs"; "During Ramadan, Muslims avoid tobacco during the day" [syn: {keep off}]

• 5: declare invalid; "The contract was annulled"; "avoid a plea" [syn: {invalidate}, {annul}, {quash}, {void}, {nullify}] [ant: {validate}]

Standard english dictionary

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[allan...@gmail.com]

Isil nay have triggered it  but it applies to all cultures  with no escaping.. politicians and banksters all war mongers have extreme accountability.. including wall..

LOL why would I pick on one group  when I can pick on all groups of murders, rapist and enslavers world wide.

[gabbydott]

Exactly Allan, why did you choose the Arabic translation when you can pick on all groups? Because you wanted to show the ISIS people how their behavior has triggered something in you! Now that's what I call strategically super bright!

[archytas]

I don't know what Gabbsing is, little Gabbsie.  Do tell.  Preferably when I'm out with the dogs.  Sounds like a good term for a foul move in Bullshit Bingo.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

The reason i picked Arabic language is that is also the language the Qur'an is written..  it is also the dogma and doctrine that isil and other islamic groups are using to justify their killing, raping of women and children  and how to treat slaves.. yes it is very targeted at this group.. the Arabic population that is not involved it gives them ammunition to combat the terrorist philosophy.

If you have  a problem with it being in Arabic  you are welcome to use German for language.. the seed needs to be planted to effect and change the moral view.. but if you want to support terrorisms use of murder, rape and enslavement of other women and children included do nothing. 

[archytas]

I have come to believe RP that the sig line exists for Gabby to whine about.  This ensures Allan his daily conversation.  Law as it is written is rarely much use.

On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 1:06:00 PM UTC, RP Singh wrote:

Allan, terrorists and extremists do not understand siglines, they only understand the language of guns, at least not those whom you are targeting.

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[gabbydott]

That's right Allan, Molly and Neil want me to do nothing about the terror that I perceive. You are lucky that they support your feelings.

[gabbydott]

I told you to delete the guidelines. No one operates on them anyhow.

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[Molly]

Beautifully structured argument, Francis, I am so happy you are back with us here. When we talk about violence against women and cultural attitudes toward women, and begin to look toward violence prevention and, as Pol suggests, we are talking about ways to begin to make a change.. The thinking in the US for the last couple of decades has been that "prevention" whether in terms of violence, substance abuse, teen pregnancy or any of the other societal ills we look to improve, all have the same systemic approach. The approach has been community organization, grass roots, involving collaborative groups interested in giving children and families the same messages about interpersonal and group relations and effecting these cultural norms. It could only be brainwashing (heading Neil off here) if everyone went along blindly, which is why the grass roots approach is the only working model so far. We can organize large groups only if they can see the benefit of how our invested interests effect them, their families, their children. If we can prove that it can, it works, and large parts of the community will join the effort for long enough that attitudes can change. If groups don't see change in their lives, the movement fails quickly. It takes support from the top and lots of effort from the bottom to the top and back down. When it works, it is a beautiful thing. Organization takes time and I think we all have a problem being patient with ourselves. We also have a problem taking responsibility for our own attitudes and how they effect the whole. The continual degradation of the discussion to an argument about Allan's statement may be a distraction from looking at our own responsibility and attitudes. It is the most important place to start. And sometimes the hardest.

[allan...@gmail.com]

They read Arabic.

تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين
Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others

-----Original Message-----
From: RP Singh <123...@gmail.com>
To: Minds Eye <mind...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, 06 Mar 2015 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: We are going backwards.

Allan, terrorists and extremists do not understand siglines, they only understand the language of guns, at least not those whom you are targeting.

On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 6:29 PM, <allan...@gmail.com> wrote:

[allan...@gmail.com]

Most laws today are poorly written.. mostly political lip flapping..

Please sow me a law enacted today that is less than 10 words..

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[allan...@gmail.com]

What terrorism do you perceive Gabby?

[archytas]

Posting seems to have stopped.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

So you are saying souls can do what ever they want ..   rape is great.. killing parties should be an every day occurrence ..  every one should have slaves..

Are you at the head of the line Gabby?

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[gabbydott]

Allan, show me where I speak of souls that can do whatever they want? I address people directly. 

You, Allan, are generally free to terrorize the readers of your emails the way you want. Here in this group I see no terrorist. I see you terrorizing. That's what hurts me. That's why I am complaining. That's why I ask Molly and Neil to do something about it. They tried to keep you calm by feeding you with positive attention. Have you noticed how there is less cookies for you these days although you have not changed at all?

[gabbydott]

It's not hard to look into someone's eyes when talking to them, Molly. I'm pretty sure that you are doing this out in the streets. Your not addressing what and who you dislike here and to super-pamper what and who you like is a strategic power tool influence the direction of the discussion and the happenings. I find what you are doing here cheap, as to extend the foul topic a little bit.

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[allan...@gmail.com]

No Gabby souls can not do what they want  they are accountable. I am not terrorizing anyone Gabby.

Do what you want Gabby.. i am not changing my sigline until i want to how you chose to deal with it.. that your problem  not mine.

[gabbydott]

... And the winner is always the one with the most time for time wasting here ...

[facilitator]

Dress codes for women that are different than dress codes for men are a good start.

I have a big problem with my country supporting countries such as Saudi Arabia which treats women like shit.  

[gabbydott]

May I ask you, Facil, what you think the reason is that Allan can more or less wear any language outfit he wants whereas the leaders here try to isolate me if I only take out my pocket mirror and turn it in their direction? Do you have a theory? Do you think it is because I am a woman?

2015-03-06 17:20 GMT+01:00 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>:

Dress codes for women that are different than dress codes for men are a good start.

I have a big problem with my country supporting countries such as Saudi Arabia which treats women like shit.  

--

[Molly]

If you mean posting with any coherence, I agree.

[archytas]

Britain and France do as much dirty dealing with Saudi.  I'd be in favour of sending Gabby out there to sort them out.

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[archytas]

That too - I had to reset my DNS.

[facilitator]

Honestly Gabby I have not been back here long enough to do a proper evaluation. But I can give an outline of some of my observations.

Here are some points to consider:

Allan is older than I am and therefore biologically he has fewer speech and response inhibitors.  He has less trouble allowing his thoughts make their way to the top of his flapping lips.

Neil and Molly are very generous in allowing free speech, as I feel this is a good thing that should not be hindered.  If their is bias on any level then who becomes the next target?

This forum is replete with pendulum swings and I find even myself succumbing to responding emotionally as opposed to simple logic.

To be more tolerant and be teachable we must also allow others the right to be ignorant.

Allan is very direct and you seem to be a bit cryptic in response so this is naturally a communication barrier.

Problem people become self evident so there really is no need to expunge someone form the forum unless they outright threaten an individual.

It may well be that because you are a woman you are treated differently.  I often thought of an experiment in which someone joins a group using two identities one as male and one as female, with similar takes and responses, wondering the outcome.

Do the leaders here Isolate you?  I don't know.  If you feel isolated then that is a problem.  But whether that is self inflicted, again, I don't know you that well.

[gabbydott]

Did Snow-white also have a father? I cannot remember. I remember it was Queen Mum who sent her out in the woods or desert or whatever it was ... it seems my fairy tales need an uptate ...

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[archytas]

I have affidavits from seven short gentlemen that Gabbylocks destroyed their relationships with friendly bears, claimed squirrels had stolen the porridge, falsely accused them of sexual assault and was the last person to see the dead prince alive.

[gabbydott]

[Jeez, I really get nothing done today.... anyways ... back to the logics here...]

Thank you very much for your response, Facil! I have gotten so used to not being response-worthy, to only be an association provider or projection surface that it always feels strange if someone actually responds to my question. So yes, thank you for taking the time.

You say: "Allan is very direct and you seem to be a bit cryptic in response so this is naturally a communication barrier."

I find myself very direct, I talk to people directly, address problems directly, demand direct responsibility to be taken here. Whereas Allan is hiding behind cryptic soul managers of life and indescribable God meetings to explain the rule of Zombiedom preferably on an far away island with a few other chosen super zombies. Strange how you come to think that the communication barrier is built by me. I even used very, very simple 4 word sentences to try to communicate with Allan ... no use, they were ignored. Maybe it is a case of like masters, like servants.?

Self inflicted isolation, yes, you have asked that before. I don't think there is such a thing.

[archytas]

Gabby runs very familiar games.  The only real problem is the dull repetition and scaring people off.  I think she's a hoot.

[archytas]

The traditional method is to go live in a cave in your underwear Gabby.  

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[gabbydott]

Ah, nowadays you can book an all-inclusive retreat during your summer holidays in India.

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[facilitator]

It may be that I look at your responses as being cryptic because I understand you less than I understand Allan. Or it could be the special glasses I got from an angel.

[gabbydott]

Yes, you have said that before. I haven't heard anything on why Allan is allowed to insult all Arabic speaking people with his anti-islamic submessage. What did Gabbsie overhear? You need to help her old ears.

[facilitator]

I didn't mean to imply the barrier was of your construction.  I tend to be cryptic so there is often a schism in my chasm.

[gabbydott]

I like the rhyme. :-)

[facilitator]

Do you enjoy poetry?

[gabbydott]

Are you trying to distract me? That is how they usually get through with their doings ... another time, Facil

2015-03-06 19:19 GMT+01:00 'facilitator' via "Minds Eye" <mind...@googlegroups.com>:

Do you enjoy poetry?