Retrieving

[LMcCain]

I was at Pat's place after Christmas without any dogs!! While there,
I sat in on a couple of sessions where she worked dogs on retrieving.
Take, hold, give...take, hold, give...and eventually carrying the
object.

Tonight, Tango found one of my squeaky toys that I use for dog shows.
I called him to me and told him to give. I had to take it from him.
It suddenly inspired me to try to teach him to retrieve, so we began
using the squeaky toy - take...hold...give. Take...hold...give. He
caught on to take and hold very quickly (he WANTED it). Give took a
little longer, but he got it. :-)

Soon he was reaching to take it....not long thereafter, he was going
out to get it and bringing it back to me! He retrieved that sqeaky
toy about five times and we quit. He wanted to keep "playing", but I
put it away. Quit with success before the dog gets bored.

We'll work on it again on other days with the squeaky and eventually
try other objects - once I know for sure he really understands what I
want from him.

Thanks for the inspiration, Pat!

Lynn

[Janis Moore]

Lynn, good for you!

During our last storm I had Cassidy find it, get it, hold, bring it
and give.

I have been working on "find it" by putting tupper ware turned up side
down and a treat under it, having Cassidy do a wait, then tell her to
find it. That also can lead to a command to "push it".

I would throw a tennis ball out the back door into the snow and tell
her to find it, push it, get it, hold, come on, or here, and give. It
is so fun to put the commands all together to form a sequence of
events, which is what tricks is all about.

Janis

[Pat Muller]

Hi Lynn and good for you

When you use the Q-collar it is so surprising how easy it is to teach
just about any dog to retrieve. Just like everything else, I find
dependable retrieving is not a problem when I use this method.
Because it works for thinking dogs, it also works for the rest.

I would suggest that you have a couple of chosen objects that are VERY
special. Those are never used for play and are put away after a short
session. That will keep the formal retrieving pure.

From experience I can tell you that once you teach Tango to retrieve,
your family or at least the kids will want to mimic what you do. I
will guarantee you that they will do it as play and the discipline
will be compromised. This is especially important when you are first
teaching/training Tango specifics.

> Tonight, Tango found one of my squeaky toys that I use for dog shows.
> I called him to me and told him to give.  I had to take it from him.
> It suddenly inspired me to try to teach him to retrieve, so we began
> using the squeaky toy - take...hold...give.   Take...hold...give.  He
> caught on to take and hold very quickly (he WANTED it).  Give took a
> little longer, but he got it.  :-)
>
> Soon he was reaching to take it....not long thereafter, he was going
> out to get it and bringing it back to me!  He retrieved that sqeaky
> toy about five times and we quit.  He wanted to keep "playing", but I
> put it away.  Quit with success before the dog gets bored.
>

I am really proud of you Lynn, you will have lots of fun with your boy
because of it.

I have seen many people train many, many dogs to retrieve and I have
always found it very interesting to watch how different dogs learn.
Some I was impressed with, most I was not. I have seen many really
good working and winning dogs taught with the ear and/or toe pinch.
For tougher, less sensitive dogs, these methods do get results but I
HATE THEM. For a long time, this was THE way but personally, I never
could bring myself to do that so my dogs were trained to retrieve by
someone else.

I also spent some time exploring play retrieving and I never saw that
as dependable or appropriate for every dog.

When I was developing the Q-collar, my goal was that this method would
work for every dog. My test was Buster and even tho he HATED holding
any strange thing in his mouth and even tho he bit me pretty good when
I was teaching him to hold, there was success.

I chose not to go through the entire process because Buster hated it
so much; BUT he would Take It, Hold and Give on command. That was all
I needed from Buster. Janis' Cassie was very easy to teach. In the
beginning, Kinzee was not impressed but today looks at retrieving as a
good thing. There have been a number of other breeds, including Sam
(GSP), who does great. In fact, I have not found a dog yet that
refused this method.

The one thing that is odd to me is that the retriever breeds are the
most difficult IF the owner has played tug or retrieving has been made
into a game. The other interesting thing about training with the Q-
collars is that I have found that young dogs, even as young as 4 1/2
months old up to about 8 - even 10 months old are so easy. So I
advise people that even if any dog can learn, it is best to begin
formally training their puppies to retrieve at an early age.

The same is true if you want a GREAT recall. On the other hand, when
it comes to WAIT, I teach the concept at an early age but the end
result WAIT is not taught until the dog is well over 8 - 10 months of
age.

Keep up the good work Lynn and Tango will be ready for Open in no
time.

Later

Pat

[LMcCain]

Right now, I do my training when no one is around. Then they don't
know what I am teaching or how - so they can't compromise it! No one
knows that Tango is working on retrieving except me (and forum
folks). As such, I don't do any formal training very often and when I
do it is for a relatively short time. Of course, that helps keep me
consistent, too.

The dogs just get the basics most of the time - crate training, being
good when tied in the house, coming in when called, not jumping on the
kids or other visitors, not stealing food off tables or from the kids,
etc. General manners.

Tango hasn't had a whole lot done with him, but he comes when called,
is great with the kids, walks nicely on lead, is clean in his crate,
is polite and well mannered around everyone, and is just a really nice
guy. He is the perfect pet. Now it is time for him to start learning
other stuff.

Lynn

[LH]

Lynn,

It is always nice to have a Lakeland that retrieves... if done in
play, it is a convenient
method for a short exercise session.

Shay has been delighted because as he said the other day, "Wow, Tea
brought
the ball back to me FOUR TIMES!". Some days, it is 4, 5, or 8 times.
We always
try to quit before she quits. And if she quits, the ball is picked up
and put away, immediately.
We don't leave those toys out.

Not too long ago, Tea retrieved the ball 8 times in a row... the next
day, nothing. Nothing
at all. So, Shay quit giving her exercise with the ball throwing for
a month. When he
reintroduced the tennis ball after the long break, she was ready to
play the right way again.

As far as a formal retrieve, I've done a little bit of basework for
it- the pickup/take, and working
on a hold.

It'll be interesting to hear how Tango progresses.

Lisa

[Pat Muller]

Hi Lisa

> It is always nice to have a Lakeland that retrieves... if done in
> play, it is a convenient
> method for a short exercise session.

I think it is great that Tea is retrieving for Shay and I agree that
play training can be great fun for both dog and owner. Please tell
Shay that I am very proud of all that he is doing with his dog. That
boy puts many adults to shame and if Tea is doing what Shay wants her
to do, I would not change a thing.

The big thing for me is that the people we are training dogs for
cannot afford to have a dog that looks at retrieving objects as play.
Presently, we have three big "projects." When Brandy, the Golden
becomes more dependable it will make her owner's life much easier.
The biggest problem I am having with her is that there are people in
this dog's life that have been "playing" with retrieving and practiced
lots of tugging besides.

That play has caused the dog to be totally disinterested in retrieving
unless it is fun and she feels like doing it. Brandy often drops the
object half way back and HATES having to "Take It." Sadly, this play
has caused a natural retriever to dislike retrieving and especially
because the goal for this dog was to become a Service Dog.

At this point, Ruby and I will work with Mia, an 8 month old Airedale
and teach her to dependably retrieve designated objects in about a
month. And in the same time frame, I will continue to try to convince
Brandy that retrieving non-fun objects is a good thing.

So as I see it, it really depends on the reason: whether you just WANT
or if you really NEED the dog to retrieve.

We are also working with Roxie, a yellow Lab. Her intended person
NEEDS Roxie to bring a cell phone and/or purse when told to do so.
This task will be more than a request, this will be an urgent
necessity. In no way, shape or form can Roxie even think that she has
a choice concerning retrieving. I am working with Roxie with the
attitude that her intended person cannot afford a dog that is play
trained.

When I read Lynn's post, I smiled. She was here for one day when we
were working with Brandy. We have actually been working with her for
a couple of months. Brandy does a great hold and give but HATES Take
It. Lynn was here that day and it was not even pretty but it made
sense. Lynn understood the information, had already done the basics,
went home and applied it to Tango. Because this method is so easy,
Tango immediately caught on and actually does view this training as
fun, play and positive attention from Lynn. Because of this, Tango
will continue to enjoy the exercise the rest of his life...and Lynn
has been "working with him" how long?

If I am going to take the time to train a dog to do something, I want
to know I have consistent results. I do not do a lot of playing with
my dogs and I don't want to start. I want dependable and I do not
want the OCD dog that we all too often see at dog shows. I feel that
if I can train a dog to calmly & dependably retrieve on command; in a
humane, easy and fun way, there is no reason for me to do it any other
way.

These are just my thoughts

Pat

[LH]

Hi Pat,

I agree that there is a different goal with a retrieve for a service
dog. The whole chain of the retrieving
process has to be so much more precise and goal-driven, and not
sloppy, like a game of retrieving can be.
There is something to be learned, however, even when game/play-
training a dog that has no natural inclination
to retrieve. A game of tug or trying to catch something would come
MUCH easier, but those games need to be
balanced with something less intense.

There is nothing better than a well-raised terrier for a kid. The
terriers teach Shay to take nothing for granted- you
have to work for it and be consistent. When things aren't going as
planned, you have to step back and think about
a solution. Sometimes, it can be frustrating for a kid.

I recently spoke to a friend who has a young Golden retriever. The
dog doesn't play ball. Their previous Golden played ball obsessively,
the dog always had something in his mouth, and the husband misses that
evening ritual of playing ball with a dog.
We talked for a bit that this dog would need to be trained to
retrieve, so there is a different mindset, and
would never have that obsessive quality about her. And then I added
that I thought this was actually a REALLY
NICE retriever to live with and own!!!

A couple months ago, I chatted with someone who owns a couple of
retrievers that "failed" out of the guide dog program.
The older dog does not play and is rather serious. Not sure why he
didn't make the cut- seems like a stable dog. The younger dog plays,
and is rather wild- seems like there were some major holes in that
young dog's upbringing and manners foundation, but the owner is
thrilled that the dog plays fetch and tug (for agility competition,
you know).

It will be interesting to hear about the progress of the dogs in the
service training program.

Lisa

[Janis Moore]

I have taught so much to Cassidy using the q-bone and the double line.
If I am consistent and fair she learns quickly. It only took me two
days (only about 5-minutes a day) to teach her hold, and then recently
during our snowstorm I taught her take it. Once Cassidy learns
something and realizes how pleased I am, her tail just wags.

During our recent cold weather and snow I was not able to take Cassidy
and Maggie for their usual walks, so…………. I started to through the
tennis ball out the back door. I would tell Cassidy, find it, push it,
get it, bring it, etc. I made this into more of a game than an actual
learning experience.

It seemed to be a good way to let her run though the snow; however it
became an obsession very quickly; I put the ball away. When I opened
the back door everytime she would run through the snow waiting for the
ball. It got to the point that Maggie could not even go outdoors with
her. Cassidy was chasing her instead of the ball. I had to put a line
on Cassidy to hold her back for two nights before she gave it up.

Teaching hold it and take it I had to be firm so that she understood
what I wanted, after she got it, her tail wags every time she does it.

We were at an agility trial this weekend, she sat in the first row of
bleachers (after walking around a bit and getting used to the other
dogs, etc.) and I could put a roll of masking tape in her mouth and
tell her to hold it, or a cardboard paper towel roll, and a bell. I
could walk around and tell her wait and she would follow me with her
eyes and her tail was wagging.

Agility is a challenge for me and distance commands are becoming more
and more a priority for me. The biggest challenge both dogs have is me
(:

We also went to the Cherry Creek Mall the same day in the afternoon.
totally different scenario. Cassidy has her service tags and is
allowed just about anywhere. She needed to be focused and well
behaved. She was great; she was friendly, calm, respectful, observant
and wiling to trust me completely. We spent time talking with a senior
couple about Cassidy and the Circle of Change program. The man shook
my hand and thanked me for talking about it. We went to the shoe store
and she was recognized by a clerk as the “cover dog” she had seen at
her vet’s office.

We were invited into an expensive jewelry store and Cassidy was the
center of attention, the clerk was hugging her magazine as we left.

Cassidy is such a well balanced dog and it is my responsibility to
keep her safe, keep her training fun and important.

Maggie is running agility with far more confidence and speed and it is
because of Cassidy. They have a good relationship. Maggie gets to
spend time at “grandmas” when I cannot take her.

PS, I have a friend that has two Labs, he is a hunter and has told me
that same story, that having previous Labs he learned that retrieve
was not a game for the kids to play with the dogs; but a job.

Janis

[LMcCain]

Yesterday I worked with Tango again on the retrieving. This time,
instead of an object he WANTED to hold, I used an object he didn't
want to hold. The first time, TAKE was no issue - he readily took
it. But he didn't like the feel of the hard plastic in his mouth and
tried to spit it out. I was ready for that and reminded him to
HOLD. I helped him hold it. He didn't want to hold it. He was more
than happy to GIVE when I told him to do so. The 2nd time, he
reluctantly took it, held it a little better and was happy to give it
back. The third time, he didn't want to take it. He took it with a
little encouragement. I continued to work with him until we had a
good take-hold-give sequence. I then praised him profusely and we
quit. He got some couch time with me and all was good in the world
again.

Lynn

[Pat Muller]

Hi Lynn

This is great news about Tango's progress. There is little challenge
in having a dog hold something that it likes. But IF you EVER want a
service dog, a competition dog or just a dependable retriever, it is
very important that the dog understands that it MUST retrieve and hold
anything you designate.

I am very happy about this big step. And because of it, your
relationship with Tango will be that much better.

Pat