What happened here?

[Mary Garrard]

Hi, when Marge Popp and I were walking along the wood chip path at the Crystal Lake playing fields on Saturday, we encountered a mystery. What happened here? 

The fetus/newborn could be a squirrel from general shape, but if it is, the guts might have to be from a larger animal. I didn’t think to put in an object for size comparison, but the guts first caught my eye because from a ways away they looked like a pile of dog poop and I wanted to avoid stepping in it, but when we got closer we realized it was not poop but rather guts and the little guy. The fetus/neonate was maybe a bit larger than my thumb. But the hind legs don’t appear to be as big as they should be if it was a squirrel?

Are the guts and the fetus/neonate from a single animal? 

Could it be that the guts are from an animal that ate the fetus/neonate whole, then itself was preyed upon by another animal?

Hmmmmmmm. I’m stumped.  

Mary

[JAMES D SMITH]

Mary et al,

"Guts" are THE popular item eaten by all wild critters, including birds. "Gut's are eaten first unless the entire victim is eaten as a beaver/rabbit by a wolf, carcass/bones/fur, everything, whole. A domestic cat often eats just the head, if anything at all. Looking at it, I speculate this is related to a human action (killing); the human got something and field dressed the critter at that spot.

Jim

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From: mid-vall...@googlegroups.com <mid-vall...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mary Garrard <spring...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 10:20 AM
To: Mid-Valley Nature
Subject: [MidValleyNature:4469] What happened here?

 

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[Lisa Millbank]

Hi Mary,

My guess is that it's a rabbit fetus, likely an Eastern Cottontail.  I think we are seeing the digestive tract of the fetus' mother.  It appears to have a large cecum, the coiled olive-brown thing in the gut pile, which would make sense for a rabbit.  The cecum is filled with bacteria and other microorganisms that can break down the cellulose that the rabbit eats.

Newborn cottontails have short ears, and I imagine that a fetus would have even shorter ears.  The tail is short, so it's not a squirrel.

I think this mother and fetus could have killed by a Red-tailed Hawk, which would probably discard the guts.  Other predators in the Crystal Lake/Willamette Park area include Red Foxes, Common Gray Foxes, Coyotes and Great Horned Owls, but I don't know if any of those would leave the guts behind.

I could be wrong about it being a rabbit, but whatever it is, it's certainly an interesting sign of predation (even if it is pretty gruesome!).

Lisa Millbank

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[Mark Nikas]

Lisa,

I think your guess sounds very plausible.  I have a question about Eastern Cottontails that maybe you or someone else on the list could help with.  You say it's likely that species.  I know Eastern Cottontails were introduced to the mid-Valley and have been well established for some time.  Do you find them more common than the native Brush Rabbit?  I often struggle with identifying which of the 2 species I am seeing, especially if the rear end is obscured.  An obvious bright fluffy cotton-like tail indicates Eastern but Brush Rabbits do have a dingy white undertail that may not be as prominent but is still similar to it's eastern cousin.  Brush Rabbits are the smaller and darker of the two species but unless side by side, size is hard to determine, and there seems to be a lot of variation in the color of the fur.

I have been researching these difference again recently because we have a pair of Brush Rabbits at our home near Fern Ridge Res.  These are the first in over 20 years here.  I'm confident now of the ID but only after observing them multiple times, taking photos and reading references.  It seems Brush Rabbits here occur in much lower densities than cottontails I'm familiar with at places east of the Rockies that I've lived.  The books mention this as well.  I would have been concerned about our gardens if rabbits moved onto our property back east but we're kind of excited about having them here as I don't expect to be overrun by them.  

I used to encounter rabbits regularly in the late 70's at EE Wilson SWA.  They were very common there at the time much like I'd experienced back east .  I was new to Oregon then and wasn't aware Brush Rabbits even existed so never thought much about what species I was encountering.  I now wonder if the large population there was because they were Easterns.  I only get to EEW rarely now so don't know if the bunnies are as abundant there as they used to be.

If anybody has more info on the relationship between the 2 species I'd love to hear it.  Thanks.

Mark Nikas

[Linda Fink]

Cats do not usually eat the stomach and intestines. At least, our cats
don't. And we had a bobcat kill here that left a large deer stomach
untouched in our back field. My livestock guardian dog sniffed the trail
leading me to where the deer, or what was left of it, was hidden under a
brush pile, which meant bobcat kill. We see them often in our trail
cameras. I would be surprised if there were not bobcats most everywhere
in the foothills, although I don't know your Crystal Lake area. A bobcat
would leave what it didn't want where it made the kill and carry the
rest off. I'm surprised it didn't eat the fetus but perhaps it just
grabbed the main animal and took it to a more private place. That's my 2
cents.

Linda Fink, near Grand Ronde

> Hmmmmmmm. I’m stumped.

>
> Mary
>
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[JAMES D SMITH]

Hi all,

I've seen evidence of Red tail Hawk encounter with a rabbit; eviscerated the rabbit and left the carcass, and a Coopers Hawk with a Flicker; also eviscerated the Flicker and left the carcass. Single (non-nesting) Great Horned Owls take the rabbit entirely to their tree stands to eat; something I've also witnessed, without seeing the remains after the meal. Coyotes eat the entire rear end of domestic cats (based upon a witness statement) and I've watched River Otters do the same with fish. Some of this could be the difference between bringing back to the nest for the kids and a single predator. Lisa could be correct on this, but it doesn't flow with what I've seen in the wild.

Jim

---

From: mid-vall...@googlegroups.com <mid-vall...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Nikas <ele...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:03 PM
Cc: Mid-Valley Nature
Subject: Re: [MidValleyNature:4472] What happened here?

 

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[JAMES D SMITH]

Hi all,

I "may" have a brush rabbit at my place; the biggest difference is the smaller ears and dingy white tail. I used to hunt eastern cottontails and the one at my place, while still a juvenile, doesn't look like the cottontail of the east. I'll wait until it gets bigger; rather likes the suburban grass, and invasive weeds of white clover and dandelion.

Jim

---

From: mid-vall...@googlegroups.com <mid-vall...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Nikas <ele...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:03 PM
Cc: Mid-Valley Nature
Subject: Re: [MidValleyNature:4472] What happened here?

 

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[Lisa Millbank]

Jim is absolutely right about a lot of predators relishing the organs of their prey.  The intestines are the major exception to that general rule, because some predatory species habitually remove them, while still eating the liver, heart, lungs, kidneys, etc.  Here's a video that shows a Red-tail carefully removing the intestines of its rabbit prey: https://youtu.be/8IsZeOvS-6U

Someone posted a series of photos of a Red-tail discarding a vole's intestines, and speculates about why they typically remove this part and eat the rest: http://www.featheredphotography.com/blog/2012/09/25/red-tailed-hawk-rejecting-intestines-of-prey/

Other predators hardly seem to notice the intestines of their prey, and gobble them up with the rest of the innards.

Lisa

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 4:50 PM, JAMES D SMITH <JDSM...@msn.com> wrote:

Hi all,

I've seen evidence of Red tail Hawk encounter with a rabbit; eviscerated the rabbit and left the carcass, and a Coopers Hawk with a Flicker; also eviscerated the Flicker and left the carcass. Single (non-nesting) Great Horned Owls take the rabbit entirely to their tree stands to eat; something I've also witnessed, without seeing the remains after the meal. Coyotes eat the entire rear end of domestic cats (based upon a witness statement) and I've watched River Otters do the same with fish. Some of this could be the difference between bringing back to the nest for the kids and a single predator. Lisa could be correct on this, but it doesn't flow with what I've seen in the wild.

Jim

---

From: mid-valley-nature@googlegroups.com <mid-valley-nature@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Mark Nikas <ele...@gmail.com>

Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 4:03 PM
Cc: Mid-Valley Nature
Subject: Re: [MidValleyNature:4472] What happened here?

Lisa,

I think your guess sounds very plausible.  I have a question about Eastern Cottontails that maybe you or someone else on the list could help with.  You say it's likely that species.  I know Eastern Cottontails were introduced to the mid-Valley and have been well established for some time.  Do you find them more common than the native Brush Rabbit?  I often struggle with identifying which of the 2 species I am seeing, especially if the rear end is obscured.  An obvious bright fluffy cotton-like tail indicates Eastern but Brush Rabbits do have a dingy white undertail that may not be as prominent but is still similar to it's eastern cousin.  Brush Rabbits are the smaller and darker of the two species but unless side by side, size is hard to determine, and there seems to be a lot of variation in the color of the fur.

I have been researching these difference again recently because we have a pair of Brush Rabbits at our home near Fern Ridge Res.  These are the first in over 20 years here.  I'm confident now of the ID but only after observing them multiple times, taking photos and reading references.  It seems Brush Rabbits here occur in much lower densities than cottontails I'm familiar with at places east of the Rockies that I've lived.  The books mention this as well.  I would have been concerned about our gardens if rabbits moved onto our property back east but we're kind of excited about having them here as I don't expect to be overrun by them.  

I used to encounter rabbits regularly in the late 70's at EE Wilson SWA.  They were very common there at the time much like I'd experienced back east .  I was new to Oregon then and wasn't aware Brush Rabbits even existed so never thought much about what species I was encountering.  I now wonder if the large population there was because they were Easterns.  I only get to EEW rarely now so don't know if the bunnies are as abundant there as they used to be.

If anybody has more info on the relationship between the 2 species I'd love to hear it.  Thanks.

Mark Nikas

On Sun, Apr 15, 2018 at 3:20 PM, Lisa Millbank <millba...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Mary,

My guess is that it's a rabbit fetus, likely an Eastern Cottontail.  I think we are seeing the digestive tract of the fetus' mother.  It appears to have a large cecum, the coiled olive-brown thing in the gut pile, which would make sense for a rabbit.  The cecum is filled with bacteria and other microorganisms that can break down the cellulose that the rabbit eats.

Newborn cottontails have short ears, and I imagine that a fetus would have even shorter ears.  The tail is short, so it's not a squirrel.

I think this mother and fetus could have killed by a Red-tailed Hawk, which would probably discard the guts.  Other predators in the Crystal Lake/Willamette Park area include Red Foxes, Common Gray Foxes, Coyotes and Great Horned Owls, but I don't know if any of those would leave the guts behind.

I could be wrong about it being a rabbit, but whatever it is, it's certainly an interesting sign of predation (even if it is pretty gruesome!).

Lisa Millbank

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[JAMES D SMITH]

Lisa,

Thank you for the education; apparently, something must have got to the intestines shortly after the remains of the two kills I saw; both due different hawks. I'll keep better track of the remains in the future.

Jim

---

From: mid-vall...@googlegroups.com <mid-vall...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lisa Millbank <millba...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, April 15, 2018 6:35 PM
To: Mid-Valley Nature
Subject: Re: [MidValleyNature:4477] What happened here?

 

Jim is absolutely right about a lot of predators relishing the organs of their prey.  The intestines are the major exception to that general rule, because some predatory species habitually remove them, while still eating the liver, heart, lungs, kidneys, etc.  Here's a video that shows a Red-tail carefully removing the intestines of its rabbit prey: https://youtu.be/8IsZeOvS-6U

Someone posted a series of photos of a Red-tail discarding a vole's intestines, and speculates about why they typically remove this part and eat the rest: http://www.featheredphotography.com/blog/2012/09/25/red-tailed-hawk-rejecting-intestines-of-prey/

Red-tailed Hawk Rejecting Intestines Of Prey « Feathered ... www.featheredphotography.com Many raptors will methodically and deliberately remove the intestinal tract of their prey before consuming it, a behavior that I’ve photographed several times with different species.

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