hardware synth to experiment with microtonal tunings

[Andrei Matveyeu]

Hello,

Right now I am using Zynaddsubfx to experiment with microtonal tunings
using Scala, but consider buying a hardware synthesizer for this
purpose. As far as I know not all synths are capable of retuning. I
was looking at Korg (Microkorg, R3) but can't find anything about
their microtonal capabilities.

Which one would you recommend?

Thanks in advance!

--
WBR, Andrei Matveyeu

[robert]

I recommend a 2nd hand Kurzweil K2000 or K2500. The microtonal
capabilities of Korg synths are limited to a +/- 99 cents
resolution(as far as I know). I also have a Korg PA50. The Kurzweil
Kxxx series have a +/- 1199 cent resolution. It is also possible to
tune a Kurzweil K2xxx synth to any equal temperament spread over the
whole keyboard (eg 41tet) so that all the notes are present at once
although I confine myself to only using any 12 notes at a time.

[Marcel de Velde]

I think I read somewhere that the Kurzweils are laboursome to microtune?
They don't have simple microtuning settings but require to do special
programming to obtain microtonal scales?

For a list of microtonal capable synths see:
http://www.microtonal-synthesis.com/
click on the [a-f] [g-m] etc buttons to see the lists.

Btw I think the Ensoniq synths are great with microtuning.
Ensoniq ASR-10 or ASR-88 would be fair priced and have a really nice
sound for electronic music.

-Marcel

[Jim Aikin]

I wish I could give you a good answer, Andrei. I don't know the features
of all of the new hardware synths. You'll need to ask each manufacturer
about the features.

I can tell you one or two things:

Many hardware synths provide tuning tables that have only 12 steps. That
is, you can create non-equal-tempered tunings to play in just
intonation, for instance -- but those 12 steps will be repeated in every
octave, so you can't create a scale with 15 notes or any other value
greater than 12.

A few synths have full-keyboard tuning scales. (The old Yamaha TX802 had
this feature, for instance, and that was 20 years ago.)

You may also want to ask about the resolution of the tuning tables. You
will need 1-cent resolution or better.

I doubt very much that any hardware synth will load Scala .tun files.
You will need to create the tuning by ear.

You might want to consider continuing to use a software synth and buy a
good MIDI master keyboard. However, most master keyboards have a fixed
arrangement of black-and-white keys, which is not good if you want more
than 12 notes per octave.

The Haken Continuum is good for microtonal music, or so I've been told,
but it's not exactly a keyboard -- it's a touch surface.

Good luck with your music!

--Jim Aikin

[Rob.fielding]

heh... i'm listening.... ( mugician only tunes to the pixel on the ipad screen.. probably a coupke cents resolution as a result, and add touch inaccuracies. )

[Aaron Andrew Hunt]

Tonal Plexus keyboards and the Tuning Box both retune any General MIDI synth:
<http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28buy.html>
<http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1buy.html>

[robert]

For any 12-note subset of any equal temperament the Kurzweil K2xxx
series are easy to program. It only takes 2 or 3 minutes to produce
any 12-note subset of any equal temperament; and this 2 or 3 minutes
is mostly spent holding down buttons until the target cent values are
reached.
It is true that the K2xxx series are laboursome but only to carry.
What is the tuning resolution of the Ensoniq ASR-10 and ASR-88?
Most microtonal keyboards these days have a tuning resolution of +/-
99 cents.
Serious microtonalists need a tuning resolution of at least +/-600
cents in one cent increments.
I only use 12 note subsets because I want to preserve what little
keyboard skills I have acquired over the years.
A 2nd hand Kurzweil K2xxx series keyboard can probably be bought US
$1000 +/- 200 if you can find one. People usually hang on to Kurzweils
for life.
The Korg PA50 has a +/-99 cent resolution but the PA series has the
added benefit of Band-in-a-Box type auto-accompaniment features.
I have never tried to have all the 41 notes of 41tet present and
available on my keyboard at once so I don't know whether it is
laboursome to program or not. How to do it has been noted at
MicroMadeEasy.

> >> WBR, Andrei Matveyeu- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[robert]

I would recommend bargain hunters to buy any General MIDI synth plus a
Tuning Box. This is probably the most economical solution in the
world.

[robert]

General MIDI synths + Tuning Box Compatibility Charts:
http://www.h-pi.com/gm.html
Probably the most economical hardware solution in the world for
traditional keyboard players. Musicians who are not keyboardists
should consider buying one of h-pi's Tonal Plexus keyboards and learn
to play without being influenced and possibly circumscribed by 12 note
concepts and patterns. Musical children should be taught how to play
in both systems if their parents can afford the time and money.

On Oct 25, 3:04 am, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaronh...@h-pi.com> wrote:

[Jim Aikin]

On 10/24/2010 9:04 AM, Aaron Andrew Hunt wrote:
> Tonal Plexus keyboards and the Tuning Box both retune any General MIDI synth:
> <http://www.h-pi.com/TPX28buy.html>
> <http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1buy.html>
>

I haven't tried a Tonal Plexus, but I looked at their website. I believe
their less expensive models don't have velocity sensing.

The Starr Labs U series and Z series are custom-order MIDI keyboards
that don't confine you to a fixed layout of black and white keys. I
tried a U-648 and liked the hexagonal layout a great deal (and it's
velocity-sensitive), but I did notice a couple of the keys retriggering
once or twice. I don't know whether this was a one-of-a-kind problem; I
haven't talked to Harvey Starr about it.

--JA

[Aaron Andrew Hunt]

Thanks, Robert.

TBX1 + Yamaha PSR-E313 / YPT-310 gives you a portable, velocity sensing, 61-key, totally programmable (any key = any pitch) microtonal keyboard for under $500. See here: <http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1setups.html> Tunings are programmed with CSE <http://www.h-pi.com/CSEsoftware.html>, uploaded to the box via MIDI. CSE is a powerful and easy to use tuning editor that works with .scl and .tun as well as other tuning files like .mtx, and it exports for all kinds of software, including .msf and .gly If you have a USB-only MIDI keyboard, you can get a license for CSE and retune that keyboard through the computer <http://www.h-pi.com/softwarebuy.html#CSE__buy>.

[Marcel de Velde]

> General MIDI synths + Tuning Box Compatibility Charts:
> http://www.h-pi.com/gm.html
> Probably the most economical hardware solution in the world for
> traditional keyboard players.

Why would that be more economical than to use a synth that already has
microtonal capability built in?
It's not like microtonal capability ups the price because it's so
popular or something like that :)

If one get a second hand Ensoniq ASR-10 for instance you have a great
sounding synth sampler workstation including sequencer, effect etc
that'll beat any budget general midi synth by far.
And since one doesn't have to buy a seperate tuning box, it'll even be
cheaper.

-Marcel

[Chris Vaisvil]

Aaron,

Does the tuning box retune chords on a synth on only one midi channel?

Also - is able to local control off essential?

Thanks,

Chris

[Chris Vaisvil]

If you play guitar I can recommend the Roland GR-20 + fractal tune smithy

The GR-20 can be set up so that each string has its own midi channel which allows for some great possibilities.

Here is an explanation of the technique

http://chrisvaisvil.com/?p=139

[Chris Vaisvil]

how does that work then?

Midi bends are for every note on the channel.  So do you need more than one channel?

I'll look at the manual - but this is a basic question on the technique.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:25 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com> wrote:

Heavens no, it's polyphonic. Please read the FAQ and download the manual.

<http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1buy.html>

<http://www.h-pi.com/TBX1faq.html>
<http://www.h-pi.com/manuals/TBX1UserManual.pdf>

[robert]

I have no knowledge or experience of Ensonique keyboards so you may be
correct in your assertions. In the case of the Tuning Box I was
generalizing because it is compatible with so many easy to find
keyboards some of which are gathering dust in cupboards, garages,
storage rooms, pawn shops and spare rooms. Many 2nd hand keyboards
come without manuals so it is not always clear what its microtonal
capabilities are. The Tuning Box comes with a guarantee of
compatibility and personal online help from Aaron Hunt who is a member
of our group the members of which use various and sundry methods to
produce microtonal music. The Tuning Box is also a very practical
solution because it utilizes keyboards which would not ordinarily even
be considered by serious microtonalists. In effect, the Tuning Box is
environmentally friendly because it promotes the recycling of
redundant keyboards.

[Chris Vaisvil]

from what I read n the manual it seems you need a synth to respond on more than 1 midi channel at the same time (multi-timbral)
it would seem each channel gets a bend message - so this is essentially the same thing fractal tune smithy does except its hardware which could be advantageous.

Chris

[Andrei Matveyeu]

Thanks for the answer, Jim. That limitation of 12 steps per octave
seems to be a problem.
Zynaddsubfx seems to be a great synth after all since many hardware
synths have this limitation. And Yamaha TX802 must be hard to find
now.

I looked at Haken Continuum and it impressed me a lot. But of course
the price is tough :(

[Andrei Matveyeu]

Wow, these keyboards are impressive! Didn't know such keyboards were
available already from $599. Definitely must be much more suitable for
microtonal music than common 12 note black white keys.
Thanks for sharing!

[Andrei Matveyeu]

Thanks, Chris. This sounds incredible! I actually play bass and almost
only fretted, altough I have a fretless as well.
I've been puzzled for a long time how to use microtones on my fretless
- it takes looots of practice and tuning-specific ear training! So
that I almost gave up.

Liked your approach and the piece a lot! Wanted to ask what is FTS? Is
it some special MIDI software that fine-tunes notes using pitch-bends?
TBX1 could be an alternative then?

If you were able to use the 17 note tuning with this technique, this
solution must suit me much better than fooling around with key synths
(many of which have this daunting 12 step/octave limitation), since I
am much more used to stringed instruments rather than keys.

Do you have more music recorded using that technique?

[Chris Vaisvil]

FTS is fractal tune smithy - $35 or so

http://robertinventor.com/software/tunesmithy/retune_music_keyboard.htm

And yes, I have a lot of music with the technique

This URL http://chrisvaisvil.com/?s=gr-20   will list them for you  - with a couple 12 equal pieces as well.

I saw a GR-20 at guitar center yesterday - about $700 still. You can find used ones for $500 or less.

And bass pickups are available too.

http://www.roland.com/products/en/GR-20/

[chrisv...@gmail.com]

Last I heard you had not put a price to it - at least not when I was shopping. What does it do more than FTS?

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com>
Sender: micro...@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 09:25:28
To: <micro...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: micro...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: hardware synth to experiment with microtonal tunings

CSE is $22, does the same thing as FTS, is cross platform, does more things, and is easier to use. <http://www.h-pi.com/softwarebuy.html#CSE__buy>

[Andrei Matveyeu]

This approach is sure to change my thinking! I was used to think that
microtones are easy to experiment with using keyboards, but now it
looks like it is possible use stringed instruments with FTS/TBX/CSE
and guitar synths since this seems to me a good alternative to
keyboards because I'm a bass player. Looking now at Roland VB99.

TPX keyboards are definitely worth considering as well, of course. And
it must be interesting to use them with guitar synths as well :)

On 25 Okt, 14:36, Chris Vaisvil <chrisvais...@gmail.com> wrote:
> FTS is fractal tune smithy - $35 or so
>
> http://robertinventor.com/software/tunesmithy/retune_music_keyboard.htm
>
> And yes, I have a lot of music with the technique
>

> This URLhttp://chrisvaisvil.com/?s=gr-20  will list them for you  - with a

[chrisv...@gmail.com]

Aaron,

I don't feel much incentive to do that. At the time you had not set a price and I understood it was going to be much more than FTS. $35 is for the full FTS which does a lot more than relay tune. Just relayy tuning / micro scale creation is $19 if I remember right.

Since I'm very happy with FTS and the author has been extremely supportive I have no reason to even considering switching unless you can give me one or more compelling reasons.

Chris
*

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com>
Sender: micro...@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:08:38
To: <micro...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: micro...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: hardware synth to experiment with microtonal tunings

Please download CSE it and try it out for yourself. <http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html> It's fully documented in PDF. Also, Chris, please take the time to follow links, explore and find out easily accessible information on your own. Almost all the questions you have asked have easy-to-find answers online and in documents that are freely available.

[chrisv...@gmail.com]

No offense but its weird you can't give concrete reasons why your product is better.

And I am quite busy myself. I'm replying via blackberry from my car between appointments.

Chris

*

-----Original Message-----
From: Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com>
Sender: micro...@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2010 10:36:50
To: <micro...@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: micro...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: hardware synth to experiment with microtonal tunings

No offense, but obviously you can take the time to type email posts to this list, so please have some consideration and take the time to follow links that I give you. That's fine that you're happy with FTS, but someone else who is considering buying new software will want to know what else is available. CSE does a lot more than relay tune, as is totally obvious from all the links I have already given you. it's a full featured tuning editor, cross platform, with lots of advanced functions. Take the time to look at it yourself, download it, use it and see what it is. Then if you have questions, I can answer them, but please don't ask me more obvious questions. I'm a very busy person.
<http://www.h-pi.com/softwarebuy.html#CSE__buy>
<http://www.h-pi.com/CSEsoftware.html>
<http://www.h-pi.com/downloads.html>

[Chris Vaisvil]

If you think other people are not as busy as you or do not have similar commitments you are wrong.

If you can't give me a compelling reason to take my limited time and explore your product I probably won't.
Marketing is more than just asserting "I'm better". And since I'm obviously quite successful in using fractal tune smithy and putting out examples and tutorials I'd think it would be in your interest to convince me to try your product if in fact it were better. You said it was easier and better than FTS but you refuse to give specifics. I personally don't care about cross-platform because I am only working on Windows boxes.

Chris

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 10:53 AM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com> wrote:

Well Chris, I have already given many reasons. Check it out or don't check it out; it's up to you. If you have questions after downloading and trying it out and reading the docs, feel free to contact me through my business. I appreciate you are busy, but you need to take the time to following links, read webpages and documents yourself. I am helping actual customers all the time. I run a business, teach at a university, and take care of my mother part time. Business questions should be directed to my business email. Please direct your questions about my software you are trying out to my business email; do not post your questions here. I'll not be answering questioms about my software on this list. Thanks for your consideration.

[Chris Vaisvil]

Aaron emailed me and said I was being a jerk on this forum since I was
getting a bit irritated that he felt the need to jump in on my
conversation at mention of any product but his - such as this example.

To be fair to everyone else I will be downloading his product and
doing a full review and comparison to  Fractal Tune Smithy and get
some actual specifics in comparison between the two. Since I can use
FTS with some facility the comparison could have some value.

Chris

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:25 AM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com> wrote:

CSE is $22, does the same thing as FTS, is cross platform, does more
things, and is easier to use.
<http://www.h-pi.com/softwarebuy.html#CSE__buy>
>
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 8:36 AM, Chris Vaisvil wrote:

[Chris Vaisvil]

I consider it bad net etiquette to start calling people names and
saying you don't need their business.

I didn't ask you to email your insults. All I asked for were specific
improvements over FTS.

Chris

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:23 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com> wrote:
> Chris, you'll have to buy it to compare.
>
> Posting this notice to the group about messages sent outside the group is very poor net etiquette.
>
> I really did not "jump on your conversation". I offered links to my products, which you ignored.
>
> I don't know who you think you are, Chris, but you're not making any friends here. My business is going just fine without you, and I don't need business from people like you, who waste my time with annoying repeat questions after I already gave you answers. I am very prompt and considerate to everyone who contacts me through my business and asks for legitimate help and support. Those people are not wasting my time. Those people follow links and read and download and try the actual software. Stop wasting my time, please.
>
> Sincerely,
> Aaron
> =====

[Chris Vaisvil]

Relay tuning was the most important part of what I was relating. So
then, indeed, a download of CSE has nothing to offer to anyone
interested in that.

Chris

On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Aaron Andrew Hunt <aaro...@h-pi.com> wrote:
> Chris, for the last time, download the software, and try it out. It does everything for free except relay tune - that you have to pay for. Read the docs. So far you have asked me a lot of questions without listening to anything I have said in response. Anyone reading through that exchange online is going to see that you were ignoring all the links I gave and kept asking questions that I had already answered. That is annoying. Referencing a personal email exchanges online is bad form. If I don't like the way you're acting, and I don't want your business, I can say so. And you can do whatever you like. I'm done with this "conversation", which again reminds me why I do not post on these forums. It is a complete waste of time and an annoyance. I correspond with musicians who are interested in microtonality, and in using the things I create for their work. I really don't have time to waste with this kind of ridiculous dialog.
>
> Aaron
> =====

[Marcel de Velde]

I'll just throw in my favourite software :)

Scala does everything for free.
Including the most powerful relay tuning of any program.
While relay tuning MIDI in Scala you can have any number of MIDI
messages (specific note on/off, controller change, anything you name
it), execute any number of Scala commands (like load a new scale,
tranpose scale, send sysex to external synth etc etc).
I'm using it to play with a 12 note per octave layout and modulate the
JI scale I use all over the place in real time while I'm playing by
hitting pads above my keyboard.

-Marcel

[Chris Vaisvil]

Hey Marcel -

Scala is great - but I've not tried the relay tuning even though I saw
it was there. Can you do polyphonic retunes with it?
If it can I need to look closer at it.

chris

[Chris Vaisvil]

I think I answered my own question - if you turn on "no channel
swapping" and "send note off before note on"
I'm guessing it would polyphonic re-tune the GR-20 on the fly.

I'll try it later.

Chris

[Marcel de Velde]

Hi Chris,

> I think I answered my own question - if you turn on "no channel
> swapping" and "send note off before note on"
> I'm guessing it would polyphonic re-tune the GR-20 on the fly.
>
> I'll try it later.
>
> Chris

Yes it does do polyphonic retuning.
But that'll work fine without "no channel swapping" and "send note off
before note on".

I guess you mean multitimbral retuning? Your above settings would be a
way to do that yes.

But Scala is much more powerful than you'd think at first glance.
In the relay.par file in the Scala installation directory you can do
advanced settings (also accessible through a button in the relay window
at the right-above "start relaying")
It's documented how to do things with it inside the relay.par file and
in the help.
Your imagination is the limit with Scala MIDI relay tuning.

-Marcel

[Jason Thomas]

Since everyone else is listing what they use, I use a Yamaha 88-key
midi controller connected to a TBX1 for retuning the midi. I have a
Korg Triton Extreme I use to synthesize and I also use various Linux
software synthesizers like qsynth. Lately I find myself using the midi
controller connected directly to the computer and using the Linux
software synthesizer zynaddsubfx, which does a great job both as a
synthesizer and for retuning to microtonal scales. Not everyone finds
a computer portable though, which is why I keep the TBX1 on hand.