Outline Numbering & Track Changes
Laura Cletheroe
I have been following several discussions in this newsgroup (to which I am
new) and am alarmed at some of the things I have seen especially regarding
numbering. I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction with a
problem that I thought only I have been getting.
I am attempting to set up a template for several users within my department
to use. The template uses outline numbering with Headings and styles
attached to 4 of its levels. I don't have a problem with the numbering
unless I turn on Track Changes - up until that point the numbers are
consistent.
I am using the outline numbering scheme in conjunction with style paragraphs
that do not have numbering so I am basically having a numbered heading, eg
1.2 (created using style Heading 1), then my main text paragraph will not
have a number but just be an indented paragraph (under user defined style
called Indent), my third paragraph will be the next numbered heading, eg 1.3
(created using style Heading 1) and so on.
My problem occurs whenever I turn on Track Changes, before I do any editing
I have a quick check through the document to check for any changes and it
randomly shows some of my Heading numbered paragraphs to have a 1.1 deleted
and the correct 1.2 added although I have done nothing to make the change !!
It also shows a tooltip saying that I (as the user) have made the paragraph
change.
This is extremely frustrating because we often have to print out documents
to show various changes etc and this change is not a change we have made!!
My question really (after my long winded explanation for which I apologise)
is this, is my problem caused by trying to use outline numbering in
conjunction with non-numbered styles? It only ever happens after a
non-numbered paragraph. It also only seems to happen in Word97 on my
office PC. Whenever I take the same document home with me, where I have
Word 2000, it does not exhibit this behaviour.
If anyone can shed any light or offer any suggestions to me I would be
extremely grateful.
Can I also say what a great newsgroup it is and I've picked up a lot of tips
already!
Thanks
Laura C
Jon Pawley
(That made me smile, it made a rhyme...)
I have seen exactly the same thing happening here. It is frustrating, but
because I had other things to think about I chose to forget about it.
However, if it is something you rely on--and it sounds that it is, for
you--then even a small problem becomes a big issue.
Anyway, I use Word 97-SR2 on NT4.
Maybe someone else has experience of this too, and maybe even knows a
solution.
Have a great weekend,
Jon
Mike Fielding
I have had this problem ever since I moved over from Word Perfect
three years ago [those were the days when I used to control the Word
Processor and not the other way around :-( ]. My solution involves
the use of a VBA macro (emailable if required) which simply accepts
and therefore removes all change marks from all the heading styles.
Not ideal but it does work - most of the time - but you may still have
problems if you have bona-fide changes to a heading. I would be
interested in any other solutions though.
Mike
On Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:48:49 +0100, "Laura Cletheroe"
<LClet...@paull-williamsons.co.uk> wrote:
<snip>
>I am using the outline numbering scheme in conjunction with style paragraphs
>that do not have numbering so I am basically having a numbered heading, eg
>1.2 (created using style Heading 1), then my main text paragraph will not
>have a number but just be an indented paragraph (under user defined style
>called Indent), my third paragraph will be the next numbered heading, eg 1.3
>(created using style Heading 1) and so on.
>
>My problem occurs whenever I turn on Track Changes, before I do any editing
>I have a quick check through the document to check for any changes and it
>randomly shows some of my Heading numbered paragraphs to have a 1.1 deleted
>and the correct 1.2 added although I have done nothing to make the change !!
>It also shows a tooltip saying that I (as the user) have made the paragraph
>change.
>
<snip>
Laura Cletheroe
I would be interested in your code Mike - if you could email it that would
be great. It's nice to know it's not happening just to me. Other than
that I have no real problem with Word - but then I guess I'm maybe not using
it to full capacity. I should spend some time going through this newsgroup
to pick up potential problems that I haven't met yet!
Have a nice weekend.
Laura
Mike Fielding wrote in message <39658722....@news.rrds.co.uk>...
Margaret Aldis
I used to be very puzzled by this effect but I now think I understand
it.
Firstly, it is a form of 'document corruption' and documents in which it
happens can be 'cured' by pasting the document contents (without the
last paragraph marker) into a fresh document. Unfortunately this loses
any 'real' revision marking in the document so it isn't ideal. You can
accept the individual spurious revisions before printing, but once a
document is like this they will keep popping back.
Secondly, the initial cause of the problem seems to be doing an 'accept
all' (or maybe accepting certain sorts of changes) with 'track changes'
left on. I guess the 'logic' is that accepting the changes produces new
changes (because Word recalculates the numbering) and there's a muddle
on timing. Anyway, once you have got documents 'clean' be sure to turn
track changes off before accepting any changes, and you should find that
the problem doesn't reappear.
Hope this is some help, if little comfort!
Margaret
In article <uz#lNC15$GA.297@cppssbbsa04>, Laura Cletheroe
<LClet...@paull-williamsons.co.uk> writes
>
>I have been following several discussions in this newsgroup (to which I am
>new) and am alarmed at some of the things I have seen especially regarding
>numbering. I wonder if anyone can point me in the right direction with a
>problem that I thought only I have been getting.
>
>I am attempting to set up a template for several users within my department
>to use. The template uses outline numbering with Headings and styles
>attached to 4 of its levels. I don't have a problem with the numbering
>unless I turn on Track Changes - up until that point the numbers are
>consistent.
>I am using the outline numbering scheme in conjunction with style paragraphs
>that do not have numbering so I am basically having a numbered heading, eg
>1.2 (created using style Heading 1), then my main text paragraph will not
>have a number but just be an indented paragraph (under user defined style
>called Indent), my third paragraph will be the next numbered heading, eg 1.3
>(created using style Heading 1) and so on.
>
>My problem occurs whenever I turn on Track Changes, before I do any editing
>I have a quick check through the document to check for any changes and it
>randomly shows some of my Heading numbered paragraphs to have a 1.1 deleted
>and the correct 1.2 added although I have done nothing to make the change !!
>It also shows a tooltip saying that I (as the user) have made the paragraph
>change.
>
>This is extremely frustrating because we often have to print out documents
>to show various changes etc and this change is not a change we have made!!
>
>My question really (after my long winded explanation for which I apologise)
>is this, is my problem caused by trying to use outline numbering in
>conjunction with non-numbered styles? It only ever happens after a
>non-numbered paragraph. It also only seems to happen in Word97 on my
>office PC. Whenever I take the same document home with me, where I have
>Word 2000, it does not exhibit this behaviour.
>
>If anyone can shed any light or offer any suggestions to me I would be
>extremely grateful.
>
>Can I also say what a great newsgroup it is and I've picked up a lot of tips
>already!
>
>Thanks
>
>Laura C
>
>
--
Margaret Aldis, Syntagma, e-mail Margare...@syntagma.co.uk
"Civilisation advances by extending the number of important
operations which we can perform without thinking about them.
Operations of thought are like cavalry charges in battle - they are
strictly limited in number, they require fresh horses, and must
only be made at decisive moments." A N Whitehead
John McGhie [MVP - Word]
This is a bug. Chances are your problem will go away if you detach the
template from Automatically updating the styles.
When you set the template to Automatically Update Styles on open, it does in
fact change the numbering list template, which will show up as a tracked
change. The more machines you open the document on, the wrose the problem
gets. Word attempts to replace the list numbering template with the one in
the registry on the local machine at each opening.
In Word 97, you cannot use Automatically Update Styles on a template if the
document contains numbering.
Hope this helps.
In microsoft.public.word.numbering on Thu, 6 Jul 2000 14:48:49 +0100, "Laura
Cletheroe" <LClet...@paull-williamsons.co.uk> wrote:
Please post follow-up questions to the newsgroup so that all may follow the thread.
John McGhie <jo...@mcghie-information.com.au>
Consultant Technical Writer
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Sydney, Australia (GMT +10 hrs) +61 (04) 1209 1410
William J. Wolfe
in such docs; does the feature remian checked, but not function; or does the
feature work haphazardly?
I used Word97 for a good amount of time, but never noticed this --
doubtlessly because I've always inveighed against leaving Automatically
Update Styles checked. As a technical writer-editor, I've found that it
clobbers too many little formatting tweaks, although sometimes it's good to
turn the feature on to update styles in a new doc, then turn it off again.
-Bill
"John McGhie [MVP - Word]" <jo...@mcghie-information.com.au> wrote in message
news:ia1dmss5b4onrldag...@4ax.com...
>< Snip><
Jon Pawley
(Good to see the Maori greeting catching on! Is there a comparable
Aboriginal greeting?)
Unfortunately I still see this problem even if I have turned off the
"Automatically Update Styles" option. The document is still attached to the
template, though. Are you suggesting that detaching the template completely
would solve this? It seems quite drastic, especially if using
macros/toolbars/... that belong to the template.
I seem to be OK if I follow Margaret's suggestion of reviewing/accepting
changes, turning "Track Changes" on and then re-saving the doc straight
afterwards though.
Cheers,
Jon
Laura Cletheroe
Margaret, thanks very much for your suggestions. However my document is
still failing me! It is a totally random problem - and is happening with
most of my templates that contain numbered paragraphs after unnumbered
paragraphs. Your second option about turning the tracking off first was
one I hadn't thought of and was quite hopeful ... but I just got the same
results. The thought of using the SEQ field (I have been reading through
lots of messages on this topic !!) fills me with dread as a couple of the
guys in my department would NOT be able to cope with that.
Thanks for your help any way - and if you can come up with any other
suggestions I would be grateful!
Cheers
Laura
Margaret Aldis wrote in message ...
Margaret Aldis
There are a number of other numbering bugs/features (as you'll see if
look back over the archives of this group!) so it may well be that you
actually have one of those, and what you are seeing on the revision
tracking is Word kludging away to try to get your numbers back right.
However, I'm not clear if you were able to paste your text into a clean
document (avoiding pasting section markers and end of doc para, where
these corruptions hang out). If you did that and the spurious marking
was still there, then my original analysis was obviously incorrect and
it's another numbering feature. But if you didn't do that because you
were trying to hang onto the real revision marks then the answer might
be to create two documents - one by *rejecting* all the changes to
create an 'original' document, and one by cutting and pasting into the
clean document, and then use Compare to regenerate the revision marking.
It occurs to me having written the above that it's also important that
the template you use to create the 'clean' document isn't itself the
source of the corruption - if it contains a lot of boiler plate and
people in your department habitually work with revision tracking on,
then it may well have become corrupt long ago which may be the root
explanation for your problem. Try pasting into a clean blank document to
test that out?
If this is all up the wrong track and what you actually have is an
unstable numbering problem, then there are a number of approaches you
could try including the SEQ fields (but I agree these aren't easy for
'casual users' to understand). Several of us have created pretty solid
templates containing numbered styles by making use of 'named list
templates', initially set up using VBA. It sounds worse than it is in
practice - look for posts from myself, Dave Rado and John Nurick earlier
this year for example code. Once you have such a template, you can clean
up documents by reapplying styles in the usual systematic way.
Best of luck
Margaret
In article <OoM2RH16$GA.1608@cpmsftngp04>, Laura Cletheroe
<LClet...@paull-williamsons.co.uk> writes
>
--
John McGhie [MVP - Word]
William:
In microsoft.public.word.numbering on Sat, 8 Jul 2000 11:19:30 -0500,
"William J. Wolfe" <wjwo...@email.msn.com> wrote:
> This is interesting, John. Does Word97 turn Automatically Update Styles off
> in such docs; does the feature remian checked, but not function; or does the
> feature work haphazardly?
Theither product turns Automatically Update off automatically, you have to
do it manually.
> I used Word97 for a good amount of time, but never noticed this --
> doubtlessly because I've always inveighed against leaving Automatically
> Update Styles checked. As a technical writer-editor, I've found that it
> clobbers too many little formatting tweaks, although sometimes it's good to
> turn the feature on to update styles in a new doc, then turn it off again.
As a technical writer myself, I ahve always insisted that it be turned on
and left on, so that documents automatically adopt any changes to the master
styles.
In the companies where I learned my craft "little formatting tweaks" were
automatically associated with "little career prospects" and often "little
employment" :-)
However, since Word 8 (Word 97...) there has been a bug in the
implimentation of numbering that trashes the numbered and bulleted lists if
this feature is turned on after the numbering has been applied (in other
words, after the text is generated).
I have raised this with Microsoft, but the response so far is that Word is
not designed for high-end writing and the feature will not be fixed. Which
means it will be, but not until we increase the level of pain somewhat.
Hope this helps.
John McGhie [MVP - Word]
Hi Jon:
In microsoft.public.word.numbering on Mon, 10 Jul 2000 12:40:20 +1200, "Jon
Pawley" <jon.p...@NOSPAMhfa.govt.nz> wrote:
> (Good to see the Maori greeting catching on! Is there a comparable
> Aboriginal greeting?)
Yes. One in each of more than 100 surviving Aboriginal languages. In New
Zealand, the missionaries caused huge enjoyment, not only by entertaining
the populace with "The Missionary Position", but by unifying several Maori
languages into a single dictionary. I understand that the languages have
begun to revert, but some common bits remain.
> Unfortunately I still see this problem even if I have turned off the
> "Automatically Update Styles" option. The document is still attached to the
> template, though. Are you suggesting that detaching the template completely
> would solve this? It seems quite drastic, especially if using
> macros/toolbars/... that belong to the template.
No: My comment basically is that Update Styles is ONE of the conditions
that causes this. You will find that the Versioning Feature and Fast Saves
both get into the act too.
I think Margaret's bottom line is that once the document gets beyond the
point of no return, you have to fully de-corrupt and rebuild it. I have a
set of macros somewhere that enables the document to be saved out to plain
text then rebuilt. Of course, you lose the change tracking.
Lsately, I have been using Word 2000 to de-corrupt documents by saving to
XML. This seems to work well so far.
Laura Cletheroe
I am so depressed !!
John McGhie [MVP - Word] wrote in message ...
>Lsately, I have been using Word 2000 to de-corrupt documents by saving to
>XML. This seems to work well so far.
>
I have SO many templates that I have created using Word's Bullet and
Numbering feature that all work really well until Tracking Changes is turned
on. I really don't know where to start! I guess the answer seems to be
learning about numbering using fields/macros - although I was a little
confused by it when I tried, but as with everything practice makes perfect I
suppose.
Thanks for everyone's help.
Laura
John McGhie [MVP - Word]
In microsoft.public.word.numbering on Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:21:19 +0100,
"Laura Cletheroe" <LClet...@paull-williamsons.co.uk> wrote:
> I am so depressed !!
I understand. Sorry, I had a bottle of little yellow pills that really
light up your day, but I've taken them all...
>
> John McGhie [MVP - Word] wrote in message ...
>
> >Lsately, I have been using Word 2000 to de-corrupt documents by saving to
> >XML. This seems to work well so far.
> >
>
>
> I have SO many templates that I have created using Word's Bullet and
> Numbering feature that all work really well until Tracking Changes is turned
> on. I really don't know where to start!
Ummm... I don't suppose we could start by turning Track Changes OFF??
Seriously: I ususally just ignore what Track Changes does to numbering: it
should all come right again when you accept all revisions :-)
> I guess the answer seems to be
> learning about numbering using fields/macros - although I was a little
> confused by it when I tried, but as with everything practice makes perfect I
> suppose.
It does, but it is not the direction Word is going in. If you start using
fields for numbering outside a professional technical writing shop, you will
have too much trouble with users stuffing it up.
You may be better to carry on with Word's list numbering and wait for Word
10. Microsoft has put some heavy work into dealing with some of the
problems. You might even find that they have been working on Track Changes
:-)
Cheers