Style Changes When "Backspace" Joins Two Separate Paragraphs
Alls Quiet
a question about it; it seemed trivial. Lately, however, using
Microsoft Word 2000 (on my Windows 7 laptop), I have had it happen
nearly every time I edit two paragraphs by merely backspacing (in
order that they become a single paragraph).
What happens is that the 11-point font of the two distinct paragraphs
balloons into 12-point font, of "Body Text" (whatever that is). I then
have to highlight and decrease the font.
Since I have lived with this quirk for a decade-and-a-half, I won't
die if I continue to have to live with it. But I finally thought it's
time to post a question and ask why merging two paragraphs results in
the Style reformatting the resultant single paragraph. Thank you for
answers here or by email.
Stefan Blom
mark that separates the paragraphs and then applies the style of the previous
paragraph to all text. This explains why the formatting changes. (Not all
formatting may change, depending on the presence or absence of direct
formatting.)
To see what happens, you may want to show paragraph marks (ś), as well as other
nonprinting marks; just click the ś button on the Standard toolbar.
For more on using styles in Word, see this article:
Tips for Understanding Styles in Word
http://www.shaunakelly.com/word/styles/stylesms.html
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
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"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
<StefanB...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> When you join two paragraphs by pressing Backspace, Word deletes the paragraph
> mark that separates the paragraphs and then applies the style of the previous
> paragraph to all text. This explains why the formatting changes. (Not all
> formatting may change, depending on the presence or absence of direct
> formatting.)
Thank you for the response, Mr. Blom. The problem is that your
explanation would "work" if indeed the previous paragraph *had* been
in different size font, in a different Style (this "Body
Text"...thing). But that's not the case: all paragraphs in the
document (of several hundred pages are uniformly 11-point Times New
Roman, which I have made the Normal default Style). Therefore,
backspacing, should not introduce a Style I never use, anywhere.
Quite mysterious. But I will read the article to which you refer me.
Thanks again.
Stefan Blom
If you select the affected text and manually reapply the Normal style (for
example by pressing Ctrl+Shift+N), does that fix the formatting?
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
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"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
<StefanB...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> That is certainly a mystery.
>
> If you select the affected text and manually reapply the Normal style (for
> example by pressing Ctrl+Shift+N), does that fix the formatting?
I will try this the next time it happens...which I have a feeling will
be soon! (I took Sunday off from my "boss," Ms. Word :)
Stefan Blom
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
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"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
<StefanB...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Please let us know how it works out! :-)
Mr. Blom, it happened again, and I'm wondering: Can it be that rather
than working on any old blank "new document," I'm working on a rather
finely tuned template that might contain some macro? (I have taken
college courses in Word and still do not understand the difference
between the terms "template" and "Style"; I have used Word since 1990
and only once recorded a macro of my own and forget how to record one
now.)
If I use the word "macro" incorrectly in my question, I suppose what
I'm trying to say is: if the person who wrote the template defined
"Body Text" as 12-point Times New Roman, can the simple act of hitting
the Backspace between paragraphs cause my *11*-point Times New Roman
(which I have as the default Normal Style) to revert to what the
author of the template defined as "Body Text?"
If so, why should backspacing between paragraphs overwrite Normal,
while simple backspacing within the body of a paragraph does not?
Thank you.
Stefan Blom
that is, if you rely on direct formatting, but I've never heard of a style being
applied (more or less) at random.
Macros *might* be a possibility, but first of all I'd check if there is a
keyboard shortcut assigned to the Body Text style. In the Modify Style dialog
box, click Format | Shortcut Key. Remove the assignment if you find one.
If the above doesn't help, try renaming Normal.dot (with Word closed). See the
"Creating a new Normal.dot from scratch" section in the article at
http://word.mvps.org/FAQs/AppErrors/BlankDocNotBlank.htm.
For more on templates and styles, take a look here:
http://www.shaunakelly.com/topic/word/styles
http://www.shaunakelly.com/topic/word/templates
http://word.mvps.org/faqs/customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
(Message posted via news.eternal-september.org)
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
<StefanB...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Formatting sometimes "revert" if you haven't defined the style(s) appropriately,
> that is, if you rely on direct formatting, but I've never heard of a style being
> applied (more or less) at random.
Mr. Blom, "revert" is an excellent description of what *seems* to be
happening. Can you tell me what you mean by "defining [a] style
appropriately?" Frankly, ever since Word went graphic "back in the
day," I'd just fly by the seat of my pants--meaning that I'd open a
new document, choose a Font, adjust the Paragraph settings--and type.
I have never once used tools such as Format Painter.
I *have* defined Styles...which leads to my second question: what do
you mean by "direct formatting?"
> Macros *might* be a possibility, but first of all I'd check if there is a
> keyboard shortcut assigned to the Body Text style. In the Modify Style dialog
> box, click Format | Shortcut Key. Remove the assignment if you find one.
I will do this, but why in God's name would someone make a Macro that
would revert Styles between paragraphs? (Serious question.)
> If the above doesn't help, try renaming Normal.dot (with Word closed). See the
> "Creating a new Normal.dot from scratch" section in the article athttp://word.mvps.org/FAQs/AppErrors/BlankDocNotBlank.htm.
Wow. I didn't know such a thing could be done. I'll do this as well.
Thanks again.
> For more on templates and styles, take a look here:
> http://www.shaunakelly.com/topic/word/styles
> http://www.shaunakelly.com/topic/word/templates
> http://word.mvps.org/faqs/customization/CreateATemplatePart1.htm
Ditto.
Alls Quiet
> Mr. Blom, "revert" is an excellent description of what *seems* to be
> happening.
Holy Toledo. I went to the Modify Style dialogue box and, while there,
saw that my Normal was defined as 12-point Times New Roman, not the 11-
point I believed.
However--because I have spent so much time "researching" this quirk
(and you have spent energy replying)--I would like to know if anything
about the following Normal template, and Body Text template, would
suggest that a Backspace between paragraphs AND ONLY BETWEEN
PARAGRAPHS results in the Normal template being replaced by Body Text:
Normal: Times New Roman, 11 pt. [after I changed it just now], English
(U.S.), Flush Left, Line Spacing Single, Widow/Orphan Control
Body Text: Normal + Justified
Thanks!
Spoonerism
Apparently all the formatting codes are 'in' the paragraph mark.
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
> I think I can asnwer this from my *very* limited knowlege of Word.
> Apparently all the formatting codes are 'in' the paragraph mark.
You're got to be kidding. Why would that be? Or are you kidding?
That's just kooky.
Graham Mayor
template - the template is the proforma layout of the whole document) - by
installed default the Normal style. The characteristics of the styles are
stored in an area of the paragraph that effectively equates to the area of
the paragraph mark that precedes the paragraph. Delete that paragraph mark
and the style characteristics are then those of the previous style. This
ensures that when you merge two paragraphs, the style of the resulting
paragraph is that of the first style in the combined paragraph. It was ever
thus.
Therefore if you have a paragraph formatted in body text followed by a
paragraph formatted with normal text then by deleting the paragraph mark
between the two, the combined new paragraph will be formatted in the body
text style
I cannot imagine any circumstances where deleting the paragraph mark between
two paragraphs formatted in the same style will result in a combined
paragraph formatted with a different style.
Manual formatting on top of the base style may affect the appearance of the
text, but it does not affect the underlying style. Manual formatting should
be limited to use for emphasis within a paragraph. The appearance of whole
paragraphs should be achieved by formatting with styles - either by using
those provided, modified to your needs if possible, or by creating new
styles.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP
My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Suzanne S. Barnhill
> and the style characteristics are then those of the previous style. This
> ensures that when you merge two paragraphs, the style of the resulting
> paragraph is that of the first style in the combined paragraph. It was
> ever thus.
Was it, though? ISTR that, at one time, deleting the paragraph mark
logically made the first paragraph part of the second, and it acquired the
style of the second. ISTR that we complained bitterly when this behavior was
changed.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
"Graham Mayor" <gma...@REMOVETHISmvps.org> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
> I cannot imagine any circumstances where deleting the paragraph mark between
> two paragraphs formatted in the same style will result in a combined
> paragraph formatted with a different style.
>
> Manual formatting on top of the base style may affect the appearance of the
> text, but it does not affect the underlying style. Manual formatting should
> be limited to use for emphasis within a paragraph. The appearance of whole
> paragraphs should be achieved by formatting with styles - either by using
> those provided, modified to your needs if possible, or by creating new
> styles.
Manual formatting on top of the base style clearly affects the
appearance of text! (I "apostrophe" here because how could it not?)
I had defined Normal as Times New Roman 12 point. I discovered only
after using Mr. Blom's suggestion about Modifying Styles that 12 point
was indeed the default, not 11 (as I had supposed and which font size
I had been manually applying). However, NONE of this addresses why,
when the Backspace changed the appearance of two merged paragraphs to
the default 12, the "reason" the Toolbar gave was that Backspacing
changed the text to Body Text Style. In other words, for months--
years, in fact--I would glance up from my chef d'oeuvre to see "Body
Text" in the dropdown Style box rather than Normal.
Thank you for the explanation, but I still do not understand why
Backspacing between two paragraphs in WORD 2000 would change the Style
not from a manually-defined Style to the default (Normal), but from a
manually-defined Style to something I never even created (Body Text).
Graham Mayor
'define styles based on your formatting' set, which is supposed to do what
it says on the tin, and is therefore best avoided.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP
My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Graham Mayor
mists of time :(
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP
My web site www.gmayor.com
Word MVP web site http://word.mvps.org
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbar...@mvps.org> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
> It seems possible that you may have the autoformat as you type option -
> 'define styles based on your formatting' set, which is supposed to do what
> it says on the tin, and is therefore best avoided.
I have wondered over the years if Word MVP's realize that Word is much
more arcane a program than most people realize. I do have the
autoformat as you type option on. I do not understand either the
denotation or any technical connotation of the imperative "Define
styles based on your formatting." One of the reasons I don't
understand it is that, in the context of the problem around which this
thread revolves, I would assume that "formatting"="default" and/or
"Normal."
If that assumption is correct, then Backspacing, while it might (and,
with me, does) adopt the formatting not of the previous, manually
formatted paragraph, but of the default style--Normal--should not
adopt what my Word defines as "Body Text" style.
Thanks again.
Spoonerism
remark. And I'm about the rawest beginner there is. *And* using Word 2000 to
boot!
I feel that sometimes it's possible to be too analytical.
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Alls Quiet
> I understand the fuller explanation given of my 'in the paragraph mark'
> remark. And I'm about the rawest beginner there is. *And* using Word 2000 to
> boot!
That's good, and I'm glad you do understand it.
> I feel that sometimes it's possible to be too analytical.
Not when you have been daily using a software program for twenty
years. "Define styles based on your formatting": what on earth does
that mean? More to the point--why does it need to be asked? It falls
into the category of one of those head-scratching commands and boxes
to be ticked or unticked, when the logical response would be "Why
would I NOT want to define styles (all styles? styles in this document
alone? exactly which styles?) based on my formatting? Would I want to
define (and what does "define" mean here? set as default? if so, then
why not say, Do You Want to Save as the Default Style the Style With
Which You Formatted This Document When You Created It?)-- I say, would
I want to define a style based on...What?
What?
Suzanne S. Barnhill
actually means "Apply a style that is formatted more or less like your
formatting." If you leave this enabled, you may suddenly find that a lot of
paragraphs in a table are unfathomably formatted with the Footer style. More
often, short pieces of text (less than a full line, no punctuation at end)
to which you have applied bold formatting and perhaps a larger font size
will be interpreted as headings and some random heading style (Heading 4,
say, even though you don't have any Heading 1, 2, or 3 paragraphs) applied.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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Graham Mayor
On Sep 19, 4:27 pm, "Spoonerism" <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>"Why would I NOT want to define styles (all styles? styles in this document
> alone? exactly which styles?) based on my formatting?
The difference here is that it is Word which is deciding what styles to
adopt, from a large built-in style collection, rather than you making the
decision what styles to use.
Of course you should create or modify styles to provide the formatting YOU
want. Word is a style based application, but you need to be in control of
that and not the application.
Spoonerism
"Suzanne S. Barnhill" <sbar...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:i76ke7$jr3$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
SNIP >... actually means "Apply a style that is formatted more or less like
your formatting."
Seems like a computer language in which 'a' possibly equals something like
'b' (most of the time)...
Alls Quiet
> You have to understand that "Define styles based on your formatting"
> actually means "Apply a style that is formatted more or less like your
> formatting." If you leave this enabled, you may suddenly find that a lot of
> paragraphs in a table are unfathomably formatted with the Footer style. More
> often, short pieces of text (less than a full line, no punctuation at end)
> to which you have applied bold formatting and perhaps a larger font size
> will be interpreted as headings and some random heading style (Heading 4,
> say, even though you don't have any Heading 1, 2, or 3 paragraphs) applied.
Thank you. That's what I always thought it meant and also why I
thought it was one of those nonsensical if not redundant choices Word
seems to give the user. Anyway, I unticked it...as far as the
Backspace issue is concerned, having it ticked (since 2000) appears to
have had no effect.
croy
<gma...@REMOVETHISmvps.org> wrote:
>You may be right, but I regret the reference has been lost to me in the
>mists of time :(
She most certainly is right!
--
croy
croy
<gma...@REMOVETHISmvps.org> wrote:
>Every paragraph in a Word document is formatted with a style (not a
>template - the template is the proforma layout of the whole document) - by
>installed default the Normal style. The characteristics of the styles are
>stored in an area of the paragraph that effectively equates to the area of
>the paragraph mark that precedes the paragraph.
What if there is only one paragraph? Where does the
paragraph formatting reside then?
--
croy
croy
<sbar...@mvps.org> wrote:
>> the paragraph mark that precedes the paragraph. Delete that paragraph mark
>> and the style characteristics are then those of the previous style. This
>> ensures that when you merge two paragraphs, the style of the resulting
>> paragraph is that of the first style in the combined paragraph. It was
>> ever thus.
>
>Was it, though? ISTR that, at one time, deleting the paragraph mark
>logically made the first paragraph part of the second, and it acquired the
>style of the second. ISTR that we complained bitterly when this behavior was
>changed.
I was taught, back in version 2 of Word for Windows, that
the paragraph formatting was contained in the paragraph mark
at trailing end of the paragraph, which corresponds with
what you recall.
The change must've come between version 2 and 6, or between
6 and whatever the next one was. Whenever is was, it marked
the end of my spending money for software made worse. We're
never told ahead of time, about the atrocities that
Microsoft wants us to continue funding. And once you open
the bag, or case, or box, there's no chance for a refund.
Luckily, I got to use Word XP at work before I was tempted
to buy it for home. I would have been *really* cranky if
I'd spent money for that downgraded product!
--
croy
Spoonerism
"croy" <cr...@invalid.net> wrote in message
news:u9mpa6l3e6ae9b3r4...@4ax.com...
ANOTHER reason why I stick to Word 2000! (I am also a VB6 enthusiast -- a
pox on VbNet)
Stefan Blom
the section formatting of the document).
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
"croy" wrote in message news:htlpa61pgqbhg9nsg...@4ax.com...
Alls Quiet
<StefanB...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> In the final paragraph mark of the document (which, by the way, also stores
> the section formatting of the document).
>
> Stefan Blom
> Microsoft Word MVP
>
>
> What if there is only one paragraph? Where does the
> paragraph formatting reside then?
I have to say that, for non-programmers or non-IT types (for whom Word
would seem to reign supreme in terms of inverse ration of IT knowledge
to user base), this explanation confused me when it first was offered.
This isn't to be ungrateful. As I explained somewhere in the mists of
this thread, I'm grateful to know (to paraphrase J. Lennon, who would
be 70 tomorrow), "You've maked me feel like I've never been wrong."
To wit: the continued reversion to Body Text from Normal when I press
the Backspace between paragraphs...formatted in Normal. On the other
hand, maybe my Word 2000 has somehow developed a life of its own and
is merely cranky in its grand old age.
Stefan Blom
it has been explained to me. Also, it is supported by experiments. :-)
If you select the paragraph mark belonging to a numbered item, and apply
formatting to it, that formatting will be applied to the number.
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
Alls Quiet
wrote:
> If you select the paragraph mark belonging to a numbered item, and apply
> formatting to it, that formatting will be applied to the number.
I will experiment with it (part of your post that I snipped). By
"numbered item," I assume you don't mean numbered or auto-formatted
lists, correct? Or do you? (I'm sure I'll find out once I experiment.)
Stefan Blom
--
Stefan Blom
Microsoft Word MVP
(Message posted via news.eternal-september.org)
"Alls Quiet" <mut...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
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