Indian language fonts to be included as default fonts in windows
Kothare@discussions.microsoft.com Ashok Kothare
have been giving them to all those who want to use them on windows to write
in Indian languages such as Hindi, Marathi, Konkani, Sindhi, Bhojpuri and
more free of cost. My suggestion to microsoft is that they should accept
these fonts as default fonts on their windows version of today and tomorrow.
This will definitely improve use of windows in Indian Homes. Mcrosoft is
already havig some versions of fonts to write in these languages but they
need a special driver to be installed additionally. With my fonts which are
based on default keyboard driver can work like english fonts on all microsoft
programmes and also on other window based programmes. I am doing it to
promote use of computers in Indian homes since, english is still not the
language of Indian homes. My idea is, if microsoft accepts this suggestion
many more users shall benefit by this facility. Presently, I can reach only a
fraction of user through my resource. I want all concerned to vote for my
suggestion for the benefit of all. I shall give my fonts to those interested
in trying them if they ask for them on my email IDs ashokk...@msnl.com,
ashokk...@yahoo.co.in, ashokk...@gmail.com
Hope to get your full support for this worthy cause. Thanks,
Ashok Kothare.
----------------
This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
click "I Agree" in the message pane.
Vikrant
don't exist but that the characters on the English keyboard are not standard.
I used to have over 40 different Hindi fonts developed by different people.
However, there was always one common problem: none of the keys were
standard. For example: the Hindi "k" or "kh" would be found on the "k" key
on one key but if I changed the font, it would be found on an entirely
different key! This caused many problems and every time I would have to
relearn the keys. One can imagine the heartache caused if every time you
changed fonts using the roman script, you would have to relearn the keyboard.
I think our first step before adopting the font should be a comprehensive
analysis of all Hindi characters and incorporating these onto the standard
keyboard. This also includes having unique ASCII codes. I know that there
are Hindi typewriters (not keyboards!) but I have not been able to get my
hands on any of these. This would be the first place to start because the
keys are "standard". Developing a haphazard system of assigning hindi
characters to any key has many risks for the reasons above. In addition, we
need to identify ALL possible characters (i.e. "ka", half "ka", visarg, ardha
visarg, placing "ka" beneath some letters as in a subscript (which is common
in some words), etc.. The Devanaagri (more comprehensive than Hindi)
typewriter, I believe managed to capture all of these nuances and not just
common symbols. I, however, commend you on your effort.
Perhaps, first, we need to begin by users who know of or have a hindi
typewriter to:
1. Take a picture of this keyboard (which hopefully identifies the keys) and
gives a layout of how this keyboard was developed
2. Email all possible combinations of these hindi/sanskrit characters to
Mr. Kothare so that we can truly develop a comprehensive and unified system
of coding keys that will remaiin constant, regardless of which font a user
chooses.
Thanks,
Vikrant.
--
Vikrant
grammatim
the reasons described by Vikrant that Unicode was developed beginning
more than 15 years ago. It is fully implemented in Windows, and by
simply (yes, _simply_) enabling the IME for any of the languages using
Devanagari, any computer in the world running Windows, or Mac OS X, or
Linux, and probably other systems as well, will be able to read the
text, with all the vowel matras and all the compound aksharas properly
formed.
Most, if not quite yet all, of the standard South Asian scripts are
implemented. The last time I checked, Oriya was not yet available, but
that may have changed by now.
And once your text has been typed -- probably in the default font
Tahoma, which tends to be quite ugly -- you can at will change it to
any font that is similarly encoded for Unicode.
It would thus be a real contribution if Ashok Kothare would assign
Unicode codings to his carefully designed Devanagari fonts, so that
they can be used by anyone who needs to type Sanskrit, Hindi, Marathi,
etc. etc.
**
And, you can set Windows to use many languages -- I personally don't
know how many languages of India this has been done for yet -- as the
system operating language.
[I'm not at all sure why my .sig, which is normally appended to all
newsgroup messages sent through google groups, doesn't appear in this
newsgroup, but I am Peter T. Daniels, co-editor of *The World's
Writing Systems* (Oxford UP, 1996), and I did all the typesetting in
scores of scripts, using only pre-Unicode Mac fonts (a number of which
I created myself -- including Oriya and Javanese) that were limited to
the 255 minus 32 characters available in an ASCII font.]
On Feb 18, 11:05 am, Vikrant <Vikr...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote:
> > in trying them if they ask for them on my email IDs ashokkoth...@msnl.com,
> > ashokkoth...@yahoo.co.in, ashokkoth...@gmail.com
> > Hope to get your full support for this worthy cause. Thanks,
> > Ashok Kothare.
>
> > ----------------
> > This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
> > suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
> > Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
> > link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
> > click "I Agree" in the message pane.
>
> >http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx?mid=d329...
Ashok Kothare
thanks for atleast admiring my effort to help writing Indian languages with
english keyboard. Grammatin may not be knowing that unicode for devnagari are
still not standardised. Even if tommorrow they are standardised using them
may need a separate multikeyed (126 keys) keyboard. It is a big work to do
all that and so at present using english unicode and english keyboard to
write Indian languages is by far the best option. Grammatin says he used many
fonts and mastering their each key notations was not easy. I agree to his
point and that is because all the fonts he has tried are with special drivers
to get large number of characters on english key board. Speciality of my
fonts is that I have developed keyboard set up and that is copyrighted. Fonts
made with that keyboard set up makes it possible to write almost all marathi,
hindi, sindhi, konkani and also bhojpuri and such modern indian languages but
for sanskrit only up to 95% can be writen. And that is not a big problem
since, my expectation is that these fonts are used for modern languages and
not sanskrit. By one estimate user of modern languages are 99.999% and user
of sanskrit are the rest 0.001%, this may explain my point.
If my suggestion is accepted a large number of users will benefit immensly
since thay will get fonts in the price of the window and no extra cost. This
shall make using computers all the more economical. Presently fonts of
private makers are costing a price and they each have their special problems,
not to mention of.
I hope this satisfies friends.
Ashko Kothare
grammatim
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Both Vikrant and grammatin have missed the issue. As for vikrant I must say
> thanks for atleast admiring my effort to help writing Indian languages with
> english keyboard. Grammatin may not be knowing that unicode for devnagari are
> still not standardised.
If Devanagari is in Unicode (and it is), then by definition it is
standardized. I happen to have the Sanskrit and Hindi IMEs activated
on my computer at the moment and I have no trouble typing Sanskrit and
Hindi, on my ordinary 107-key keyboard.
> Even if tommorrow they are standardised using them
> may need a separate multikeyed (126 keys) keyboard. It is a big work to do
> all that and so at present using english unicode and english keyboard to
> write Indian languages is by far the best option. Grammatin says he used many
> fonts and mastering their each key notations was not easy. I agree to his
> point and that is because all the fonts he has tried are with special drivers
> to get large number of characters on english key board.
No; as I said, I was using a Mac, before Unicode, and there were no
"font drivers" in a Mac: there were only sets of 223 glyphs (255 less
32) assigned to the 223 available slots in an ordinary font. It was in
fact impossible to make all Indian fonts interconvertible, because
compound aksharas are formed differently in the different scripts, but
it was possible to type every one of the ten standard Indic scripts
(Devanagari, Bangla, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Oriya, Tamil, Telugu,
Kannada, Malayalam, Sinhala) using the standard Mac keyboard, which is
almost identical in layout and inventory to the standard PC keyboard.
> Speciality of my
> fonts is that I have developed keyboard set up and that is copyrighted. Fonts
> made with that keyboard set up makes it possible to write almost all marathi,
> hindi, sindhi, konkani and also bhojpuri and such modern indian languages but
> for sanskrit only up to 95% can be writen. And that is not a big problem
> since, my expectation is that these fonts are used for modern languages and
> not sanskrit. By one estimate user of modern languages are 99.999% and user
> of sanskrit are the rest 0.001%, this may explain my point.
Then, I'm sorry to say, your product is not adequate -- the Mac fonts
and keyboard software created by Ecological Linguistics in the 1980s
and 1990s could handle _all_ the needs of all the languages, classical
and modern.
> If my suggestion is accepted a large number of users will benefit immensly
> since thay will get fonts in the price of the window and no extra cost. This
> shall make using computers all the more economical. Presently fonts of
> private makers are costing a price and they each have their special problems,
> not to mention of.
> I hope this satisfies friends.
The fonts and IMEs (what you may be referring to as "font drivers")
_are_ included in the price of Windows (XP and Vista; I can't say how
many years ago they were introduced). (All you need to do is go to the
Control Panel called Regional and Language Options and install them.
You will probably be asked to insert your Windows CD.) For most of the
Indic scripts, only one font is included -- Tahoma -- and it is not
particularly attractive. Thus if you, Ashok, have created good-looking
fonts for Devanagari (and the other nine scripts), then you will sell
many more copies if they are Unicode- and Windows-compatible than if
they simply sit on top of the Latin-1 Unicode encoding (and no one
will be able to share files with anyone who has not purchased your
fonts, at, as you say, extra cost).
> "Ashok Kothare" wrote:
> > I have developed Indian Language fonts to be used on english key board. I
> > have been giving them to all those who want to use them on windows to write
> > in Indian languages such as Hindi, Marathi, Konkani, Sindhi, Bhojpuri and
> > more free of cost. My suggestion to microsoft is that they should accept
> > these fonts as default fonts on their windows version of today and tomorrow.
> > This will definitely improve use of windows in Indian Homes. Mcrosoft is
> > already havig some versions of fonts to write in these languages but they
> > need a special driver to be installed additionally. With my fonts which are
> > based on default keyboard driver can work like english fonts on all microsoft
> > programmes and also on other window based programmes. I am doing it to
> > promote use of computers in Indian homes since, english is still not the
> > language of Indian homes. My idea is, if microsoft accepts this suggestion
> > many more users shall benefit by this facility. Presently, I can reach only a
> > fraction of user through my resource. I want all concerned to vote for my
> > suggestion for the benefit of all. I shall give my fonts to those interested
> > in trying them if they ask for them on my email IDs ashokkoth...@msnl.com,
> > ashokkoth...@yahoo.co.in, ashokkoth...@gmail.com
> > Hope to get your full support for this worthy cause. Thanks,
> > Ashok Kothare.
>
> > ----------------
> > This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
> > suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
> > Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
> > link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
> > click "I Agree" in the message pane.
>
> >http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx?mid=d329...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Ashok Kothare
missed is that my fonts are free of cost. Interesting enough my fonts work
very well on both mac and linux. XP has now devnagari fonts but to activate
them one need go in controll panel and activate the driver to make them
functional. unless thet are supported by such drivers they cannot come and it
is experienced that quite often XP fails to activate them and one is
helpless. Quite often computer stops responding and one has to close the
machine. Luckily Grammtim's computer is working well. But when he may
experience this he will admit usefullness of my fonts! With my fonts this
situation can not arrive because my fonts are based on keyboard default
driver. And so thery are more relieble. Grammatim may not be aware that
Indian users are not so competent to work all that. A very specialised
working that XP needs is not understood by these people accrding to my
experience. So to make work easy for our indian users my fonts are today
found to be of much use . Grammatim, this is not just writing text but my
intention is to make available fonts on internet also. Devnagari fonts with
extra driver are not accepted easily by many browsers and also servers such
as hotmail, goggle, yahoo etc. Since my fonts are ASCII based (english
unicode) they can be easily accepted by these servers. If servers accept
these fonts business in email and other internet activity shall grow in
volumes. Today people can not communicate properly in english and so email
activity is limited to english only but when my fonts are made available to
them people will spend more time on internet and that is business. And so my
suggestion is having many hidden benefits which we can not discuss on this
platform.
I hope my explanation clears the doubts about extra usefullnes of my fonts
to windows and internet.
I must thank grammtim for the lively interaction. Sadly I did not find any
new point in his reaction.
Actually I had sent one reply a little while ago but I felt that the reply
is not sent and so this is second reply.
"grammatim" wrote:
> > >http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx?mid=d329....- Hide quoted text -
grammatim
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Dear Grammatim, we are working for windows and not mac.
I was explaining to you that Windows handles this _better_ than Mac,
because Unicode is fully implemented.
> One more point he
> missed is that my fonts are free of cost. Interesting enough my fonts work
> very well on both mac and linux.
You never said -- are they TrueType? or are they PostScript?
> XP has now devnagari fonts but to activate
> them one need go in controll panel and activate the driver to make them
> functional.
A very simple procedure that needs to be done only once. If you buy a
computer in India, it presumably comes with those "drivers" already
activated, because your operating system presumably is set for Hindi,
Tamil, etc.
> unless thet are supported by such drivers they cannot come and it
> is experienced that quite often XP fails to activate them and one is
> helpless.
Admittedly, I have never heard of anyone having trouble activating
them, but I have not known many people who tried.
> Quite often computer stops responding and one has to close the
> machine. Luckily Grammtim's computer is working well. But when he may
> experience this he will admit usefullness of my fonts! With my fonts this
> situation can not arrive because my fonts are based on keyboard default
> driver. And so thery are more relieble. Grammatim may not be aware that
> Indian users are not so competent to work all that.
Neither am I, certainly. I never used a Windows computer before
September 2005 and very shortly I was familiar with typing in non-
Roman scripts.
Before that, I used precisely the sort of fonts you are describing,
ones that sit uncomforably on top of roman-alphabet fonts, where
nearly all the compound aksharas had to be typed by using keys other
than the ones for the basic consonant aksharas.
> A very specialised
> working that XP needs is not understood by these people accrding to my
> experience.
You just said that Indians are stupid!
> So to make work easy for our indian users my fonts are today
> found to be of much use . Grammatim, this is not just writing text but my
> intention is to make available fonts on internet also. Devnagari fonts with
> extra driver are not accepted easily by many browsers and also servers such
> as hotmail, goggle, yahoo etc. Since my fonts are ASCII based (english
> unicode) they can be easily accepted by these servers. If servers accept
> these fonts business in email and other internet activity shall grow in
> volumes.
If they are not found on every individual's computer, then those
individuals will not be able to read those websites. If the websites
use Unicode-encoded characters, then anyone with a basic Windows
installation (XP or Vista, at least, and probably earlier ones as
well) will be able to read the websites.
> Today people can not communicate properly in english and so email
> activity is limited to english only but when my fonts are made available to
> them people will spend more time on internet and that is business.
People happily transliterate non-roman-alphabet languages into roman
alphabet for using email in any language.
> And so my
> suggestion is having many hidden benefits which we can not discuss on this
> platform.
_None_ of this topic is appropriate on this newsgroup.
> I hope my explanation clears the doubts about extra usefullnes of my fonts
> to windows and internet.
> I must thank grammtim for the lively interaction. Sadly I did not find any
> new point in his reaction.
> Actually I had sent one reply a little while ago but I felt that the reply
> is not sent and so this is second reply.
Yes, this is the first response to my posting at 11:05 am on Feb 19.
Ashok Kothare
windows and not mac. Interesting enough my fonts come very well on both O/S,
linux and mac. Second point you have talked of, me getting money from the
fonts, there again you have gone wrong. I have been giving my fonts to
interested people free of cost. Even to Microsoft Corporation I want to offer
them 'as user' these fonts without any cost. So Microsoft, if accept my offer
they are not going to pay me for using my fonts. You may wonder then why am I
doing this, well, that shall be discussed with Microsoft when time comes. You
say some fonts you are using are unicode based and so you feel that Devnagri
unicode is available. There
again you go wrong. If you have a font making programmer (many are available
on internet) you will see that all the Devnagri fonts you are using are based
on unicode of English and not Devnagri! If you want to know more about
unicode position of Devnagri you may open a web site called Bhashaindia.com
and you will come to know that the process is still going on and no final
decision is done. I, having interest in fonts, have been studying it
regularly. Actually what allotments are made are such that a workable font
just can
not be made from that table. And so we have to depend on English unicode for
some more time. All the fonts you talk about are as I said are driver based
and they are not acceptable to internet browsers. Only keyboard based fonts
are easily workable at present and that is why not a single browser and so
server are having the fonts you have mentioned on their font file. I talked
about keyboard requiring more than 105 keys because I want the keyboard to
accept all devnagri fonts without a driver programme to support it. You were
correct in saying that you can write using your normal English keyboard with
those fonts and that is because only driver based fonts can come on English
keyboard. Particularly for joint words called 'jodakshar' help of driver is a
must. Then you may ask, if so, how your font work with English keyboard? To
solve this problem I use segments of each breakable consonant in Devnagri.
Method popularly known as type writer mode. Because of that I can get all the
characters and also joining them correctly to get 'jodakshar' without any
difficulty. This of course, makes writing a little slow but that is not a big
problem. We have been using type writer for a long time and this was the only
method used on those machines. I am sure if Microsoft accepts this offer
business of Microsoft in Indian market will be greatly improved since, at
present only English knowing people mainly use computers. When devnagri will
be possible all local language people who are a great number will work on
computers adding to the business. My main interest as I have given hint
earlier is with internet use of my fonts. All the fonts you have talked of
are not acceptable to internet for reasons already mentioned. And so I expect
that my offer will be accepted by Microsoft and we work together. You have
asked about the type of my font. My fonts are true type.
Thanks for the interesting interaction I had with you, Grammatim. I hope
this clears your doubts about necessity of my offer.
"grammatim" wrote:
> > > > fonts is that I have developed keyboard set up and that is copyrighted.. Fonts
> > > > made with that keyboard set up makes it possible to write almost all marathi,
> > > > hindi, sindhi, konkani and also bhojpuri and such modern indian languages but
> > > > for sanskrit only up to 95% can be writen. And that is not a big problem
> > > > since, my expectation is that these fonts are used for modern languages and
> > > > not sanskrit. By one estimate user of modern languages are 99.999% and user
> > > > of sanskrit are the rest 0.001%, this may explain my point.
> >
> > > Then, I'm sorry to say, your product is not adequate -- the Mac fonts
> > > and keyboard software created by Ecological Linguistics in the 1980s
> > > and 1990s could handle _all_ the needs of all the languages, classical
> > > and modern.
> >
> > > > If my suggestion is accepted a large number of users will benefit immensly
> > > > since thay will get fonts in the price of the window and no extra cost.. This
grammatim
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Dear Grammatim, you have again got on wrong footing. We are talking of
> windows and not mac.
Yes. I have been telling you that Windows handles this _better_ than
Mac.
> Interesting enough my fonts come very well on both O/S,
> linux and mac. Second point you have talked of, me getting money from the
> fonts, there again you have gone wrong. I have been giving my fonts to
> interested people free of cost. Even to Microsoft Corporation I want to offer
> them 'as user' these fonts without any cost. So Microsoft, if accept my offer
> they are not going to pay me for using my fonts. You may wonder then why am I
> doing this, well, that shall be discussed with Microsoft when time comes. You
> say some fonts you are using are unicode based and so you feel that Devnagri
> unicode is available. There
> again you go wrong. If you have a font making programmer (many are available
> on internet) you will see that all the Devnagri fonts you are using are based
> on unicode of English and not Devnagri!
You are simply wrong. Open the "Insert Symbol" panel in Word, set the
font to Tahoma and the encoding to Unicode, and you will see a drop-
down menu listing the character ranges available in the font. You will
see a variety of Indic scripts included there.
If you double-click on any of the Indic characters included, it will
be inserted into your document, and if you try to change its font to
some "English"-only font, it will not change.
It is clear from what you write below that you do not know how to use
the resources built into every Windows computer. Since you are not
willing to learn, there is no point in attempting to communicate with
you further.
And the site you should be visiting is called unicode.org.
I happen to own the printed book of the Unicode Standard v. 1.0, and
all the way back in 1991 it included all nine Indic scripts of India,
fully implemented. (Sinhala was not included, perhaps because India
had better connections with the computing world than Sri Lanka.)
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Unicode MS.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
"grammatim" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:9f5e7f5b-5c1e-4eb4...@k2g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Ashok Kothare
Grammatim is a little less patient on these matters. So I now prefer to talk
to you. Your point that we do not have standardised keyboard set up is very
true. If you remember about 50 years ago in USA the same condition prevailed.
American government passed an act of ASCII and standardised the keyboard. It
was possible to that govenment because all computer masters such as IBM,
Microsoft, Adobe and more were americans. Today we have similar situation for
Indian languages. Our government has also passed similar act called ISCII but
that is not followed because 1) indian market is not big enough to bother
about our problem, 2) we prefer to work with english than any other of our
languages. 3) amongst indians devnagri is used by atleast 6 different
languages and the character requirements of each is different. I know
Malayalum and Tamil unicode is standardized and that was possible because
both scripts are used by single language each, 4) each year atleast 2 to 3
more font makers come in market to sell their fonts adding to the number of
fonts, 5) each font is copy righted and so nobody can copy other's keyboard
set up for legal reasons. My offer to Microsoft is actually to remedy this
problem. Supposing Microsoft accept my offer and actually include my fonts
with my keyboard set up then users will not bother to go for other fonts and
rest with my fonts. This shall in return bring about a type of
standardization of key board. Second advantage will be that, once devnagri
fonts are accepted as default fonts always readily available on the computer,
non-english users shall immerge in great numbers adding to the business of
computers. According to my information Microsoft has devnagri fonts by
arrangement with some indian font maker and that is at a premium price adding
to the cost of the software. Again that keyboard setup is copy righted and so
no body can copy that set up and design fonts. Here my offer comes with
advantage. How? Let me explain, My fonts are available free of cost to
Microsoft and so if they accept them they have nothing to loose but the users
benefit immensly. In case some font maker wants to use my keyboard set up to
make his fonts he can do it by paying to me the royalty charges. In this
process more and more fonts with great many varieties will be available to
users. As you have said you got 40 fonts in devnagri I request you to ask for
my fonts on my email ashokk...@yahoo.co.in and you will get them by reply
free of cost. Initially I started doing this because I want non-english
people to take to computers in a big way. Actually I am a hobbist and making
fonts is not my busines but hobby and so I can do this, which profesional
font makers can not do at all. I have seen that fonts made by these
professionals are not workable on all window versions. As new versions come
old fonts are discarded and users have to buy again next version of that
font. This makes using these fonts very painful and discourages users. My
fonts being keyboard default driver based can come on all versions of windows
present and future. This prospect has already made my fonts popular in users.
Grammatim suggests to use insert font from word. This works so long as you
are working in word. If you want to work in photo paint, page maker,
photoshop and such different programmes these fonts do not work. With my
fonts user can work freely in all the programmes workable on windows and so
they have an advantage above those fonts. I thing it is immaterial whether a
font is ascii based or unicode based so long as it works on the machine
properly. Insistance for unicode fonts have in some cases caused problems
with keyboards. Not all keyboards respond well for them but all makes of
keyboards do respond for ASCII based fonts very well. I mean let us be a
little more practical in solving this problem of having relieble devnagri
fonts on windows. hope this explains my stand on the issue.
Beth Melton
used is the 'Suggestion to Microsoft' post type in the newsgroup then
unfortunately it will likely fall on deaf ears. Microsoft doesn't monitor
these newsgroups or the Suggestion posts. For example, if you filter this
group for "Suggestions with Microsoft Response" you'll see exactly 1
Microsoft response to a suggestion. That was about 3 years ago. You may also
want to note the response was around 10 months after the initial suggestion.
Oh, and did I mention the post was actually a test for suggestions to see if
MS would actually respond? Interestingly, the response was posted not long
after several of us drew attention to the fact MS wasn't responding to
Suggestion posts in the newsgroup. <g>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
"Ashok Kothare" <AshokK...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C2D38879-44A0-436C...@microsoft.com...
Ashok Kothare
fonts to MS then what is the right method of approach to MS? Can you suggest.
Thanks for the advice.
Ashok Kothare
Grammatim is a little impatient on these matters. So I now prefer to talk to
true. If you remember about 50 years ago in USA the same condition prevailed.
American government passed an act of ASCII and standardised the keyboard. It
was possible to that govenment because all computer masters such as IBM,
any other of our languages. 3) amongst indians devnagri is used by atleast 6
different languages and the character requirements of each is different. I
know Malayalum and Tamil unicode is standardized and that was possible
because both scripts are used by single language each, 4) each year atleast 2
to 3 more font makers come in market to sell their fonts adding to the number
set up for legal reasons. My offer to Microsoft is actually to remedy this
with my keyboard set up then users will not bother to go for other fonts and
standardization of key board. Second advantage will be that, once devnagri
fonts are accepted as default fonts always readily available on the computer,
non-english users shall immerge in great numbers adding to the business of
computers. According to my information Microsoft has devnagri fonts by
arrangement with some indian font maker and that is at a premium price adding
Beth Melton
http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/suggestions.aspx?Sitename=5&Type=2
It has a "Products" suggestions. I'm not sure what happens to those either
but I do know they at least go to Microsoft.
Best of luck in your venture!! :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
https://mvp.support.microsoft.com/profile/Melton
What is a Microsoft MVP? http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/mvpfaqs
"Ashok Kothare" <AshokK...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:FD40CAEA-7B47-4471...@microsoft.com...
grammatim
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Grammatim suggests to use insert font from word.
NO. That was to prove to you that you can use Unicode-encoded
characters in an ordinary (English-language) document.
(Insert SYMBOL. not "insert font," whatever that would be.)
> This works so long as you
> are working in word. If you want to work in photo paint, page maker,
> photoshop and such different programmes these fonts do not work.
NO. They work in ANY program running in Windows (that was written
after Unicode was implemented in Windows).
> With my
> fonts user can work freely in all the programmes workable on windows and so
> they have an advantage above those fonts. I thing it is immaterial whether a
> font is ascii based or unicode based so long as it works on the machine
> properly.
That is exactly the attitude that led to the chaos that made Unicode a
necessity by 1990.
Were you using a personal computer in 1985? I was.
> Insistance for unicode fonts have in some cases caused problems
> with keyboards. Not all keyboards respond well for them but all makes of
> keyboards do respond for ASCII based fonts very well.
Maybe in India you have "makes of keyboards" that do not follow
international standards. The "make of keyboard" cannot have anything
to do with the signal sent to your computer by depressing each key!
Ashok Kothare
for improving the microsoft online web site are received and no suggestion
for improving microsoft OS are considered. The list of topics does not
include this topic! It looks as if MS do not expect a suggestion from unknown
people like me to improve working of their OSs in Indian market.
Ashok Kothare
Beth Melton
What is a Microsoft MVP? http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/gp/mvpfaqs
"Ashok Kothare" <AshokK...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:8F1F5281-9214-4E94...@microsoft.com...
> Thanks for your suggestion Beth. I find that on that site only suggestions
> for improving the microsoft online web site are received and no suggestion
> for improving microsoft OS are considered. The list of topics does not
> include this topic! It looks as if MS do not expect a suggestion from
> unknown
> people like me to improve working of their OSs in Indian market.
> Ashok Kothare
>
> "Beth Melton" wrote:
>
>> I honestly don't know the answer to that question. You might try this
>> link:
>> http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/suggestions.aspx?Sitename=5&Type=2
>>
>> It has a "Products" suggestions. I'm not sure what happens to those
>> either
>> but I do know they at least go to Microsoft.
>>
>> Best of luck in your venture!! :-)
>>
Kothare@discussions.microsoft.com Ashok Kothare
me that transliteration is the answer to the problem of Indian language
inclusion as default font. I have studied the suggestion and come with reply.
that reply is in details and so I have put it on my blog. Please visit my
blog to read it. It is a research paper too lengthy for this box. URL of my
blog
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box.
grammatim
anything in between have to do with Indian typography.
On Sep 5, 6:17 am, Ashok Kothare <Ashok
Koth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Friends, I am resuming the dialogue after about seven months. Somebody told
> me that transliteration is the answer to the problem of Indian language
> inclusion as default font. I have studied the suggestion and come with reply.
> that reply is in details and so I have put it on my blog. Please visit my
> blog to read it. It is a research paper too lengthy for this box. URL of my
> blog http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
> and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box.
>
>
>
> "Ashok Kothare" wrote:
> > I have developed Indian Language fonts to be used on english key board. I
> > have been giving them to all those who want to use them on windows to write
> > in Indian languages such as Hindi, Marathi, Konkani, Sindhi, Bhojpuri and
> > more free of cost. My suggestion to microsoft is that they should accept
> > these fonts as default fonts on their windows version of today and tomorrow.
> > This will definitely improve use of windows in Indian Homes. Mcrosoft is
> > already havig some versions of fonts to write in these languages but they
> > need a special driver to be installed additionally. With my fonts which are
> > based on default keyboard driver can work like english fonts on all microsoft
> > programmes and also on other window based programmes. I am doing it to
> > promote use of computers in Indian homes since, english is still not the
> > language of Indian homes. My idea is, if microsoft accepts this suggestion
> > many more users shall benefit by this facility. Presently, I can reach only a
> > fraction of user through my resource. I want all concerned to vote for my
> > suggestion for the benefit of all. I shall give my fonts to those interested
> > in trying them if they ask for them on my email IDs ashokkoth...@msnl.com,
> > ashokkoth...@yahoo.co.in, ashokkoth...@gmail.com
> > Hope to get your full support for this worthy cause. Thanks,
> > Ashok Kothare.
>
> > ----------------
> > This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
> > suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
> > Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow this
> > link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
> > click "I Agree" in the message pane.
>
> >http://www.microsoft.com/office/community/en-us/default.mspx?mid=d329...- Hide quoted text -
Bob Buckland ?:-) At Beautiful Downtown
Can you provide the link to the specific document you're referring to in your post? The Transliteration article on your blog at
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in/transliteration/
basically says 'coming soon'. :)
==============
<<"Ashok Kothare" <Ashok Kot...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C23F5A5C-3DA8-433B...@microsoft.com...
Friends, I am resuming the dialogue after about seven months. Somebody told
me that transliteration is the answer to the problem of Indian language
inclusion as default font. I have studied the suggestion and come with reply.
that reply is in details and so I have put it on my blog. Please visit my
blog to read it. It is a research paper too lengthy for this box. URL of my
blog
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box. >>
--
Bob Buckland ?:-)
MS Office System Products MVP
*Courtesy is not expensive and can pay big dividends*
Ashok Kothare
problem at my end. Now you can read my article on the page Transliteration
and please write back for your comments here and also if possible on the
comment box of the blog. That page shall remain on the blog for some time
now, for all interested observers. Friend Grammtin, please note.
grammatim
The "essay" contains a great deal of blather. I gather "orkut" is an
Indian ISP?
You seem to have two points. (1) Transliteration is not necessary.
(2) Windows cannot properly handle Indian scripts.
(1) is a matter of opinion and is correct in some circumstances,
incorrect in others.
(2), as I and others told you more than half a year ago, is simply
incorrect. Every version of Windows since I-don't-know-when has
provided full support for typing in the 11 standard scripts of India
(roman, Nagari, Gujarati, Gurmukhi, Bengali, Oriya, Kannada, Telugu,
Tamil, Malayalam, Urdu), with a dedicated keyboard for each. All of
them have been included in Unicode since Version 1.0 nearly 20 years
ago.
On Sep 14, 5:09 am, Ashok Kothare
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> I am very sorry that the page on my blog was written next day due to internet
> problem at my end. Now you can read my article on the page Transliteration
> and please write back for your comments here and also if possible on the
> comment box of the blog. That page shall remain on the blog for some time
> now, for all interested observers. Friend Grammtin, please note.
>
> "Bob Buckland ?:-)" wrote:
>
> > Hi Ashok,
>
> > Can you provide the link to the specific document you're referring to in your post? The Transliteration article on your blog at
> > http://kothareashok.blog.co.in/transliteration/
> > basically says 'coming soon'. :)
>
> > ==============
> > <<"Ashok Kothare" <Ashok Koth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
Ashok Kothare
windows suitable to write in Indian languages. I am afraid you are not
correct. Another point you have put is that unicode has been finalized for
Indian languages is also not correct. If you see unicodes used by fonts such
as 'mangal' you will see that they are not placed on the unicodes
recommended for Indian languages but they are put on other nondescript
unicode places. If windows do that how that can be justified? I want
Microsoft to be a perfect instrument to get proper unicodes to be used for
these languages. I will add one more page to my blog soon to show you the
difference in what unicodes are used by microsoft Indian fonts and what are
the actuall unicodes offered by the unicode. I want to know why microsoft is
doing this? Is it justified to put fonts of a langauge on wrong unicodes? My
intentions are that let us do something that is, in given times, helpful to
users in India. Please do not misunderstand me. I want to know what Bob has
to say. Please visit my blog after 8 days to avoid any misunderstanding. I
have internet server problem here and that makes it difficult to do posting
in time sorry for that. Remember, we Indians wish to use english version of
windows and want to write our messages in Indian languages since that is most
convenient at this time. We often toggle between both languages and for that
english version is most suitable. with regards.
grammatim
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> Dear Grammatim, you are very sure that everything has been done to make
> windows suitable to write in Indian languages.
"Everything"? I have no idea what "everything" might be. You can type
in the 11 standard Indian scripts without adding anything at all to
Windows out-of-the-box. Conjuncts are formed, and matras are placed,
automatically as you type the sounds of the letters in the order they
are spoken -- you don't even need to type <i> before the consonant, or
<o> both before and after (Bengali). Once you have selected the (or a)
keyboard for your language, you begin to get characters in that
script, in whatever the system's default might be. For some it's Arial
Unicode, for some it's Sylfaen, for some (Urdu, Sindhi), it's Times
New Roman.
> I am afraid you are not
> correct. Another point you have put is that unicode has been finalized for
> Indian languages is also not correct. If you see unicodes used by fonts such
> as 'mangal' you will see that they are not placed on the unicodes
> recommended for Indian languages but they are put on other nondescript
> unicode places.
It is hardly Unicode's fault that some font designers have failed to
adhere to Unicode standards. I have not heard of "mangal"; for what
script is it a font?
> If windows do that how that can be justified? I want
"Windows" do not "do that." Font designers do that. Maybe "mangal" is
20 years old and was made before computers could handle more than 128
or 256 characters.
> Microsoft to be a perfect instrument to get proper unicodes to be used for
> these languages. I will add one more page to my blog soon to show you the
> difference in what unicodes are used by microsoft Indian fonts and what are
> the actuall unicodes offered by the unicode. I want to know why microsoft is
> doing this? Is it justified to put fonts of a langauge on wrong unicodes? My
Certainly not.
> intentions are that let us do something that is, in given times, helpful to
> users in India. Please do not misunderstand me. I want to know what Bob has
> to say. Please visit my blog after 8 days to avoid any misunderstanding. I
Post the link here next week.
> have internet server problem here and that makes it difficult to do posting
> in time sorry for that. Remember, we Indians wish to use english version of
> windows and want to write our messages in Indian languages since that is most
> convenient at this time. We often toggle between both languages and for that
> english version is most suitable. with regards.
I of course use English version of Windows, and I have no trouble
typing in any of the Indian languages. I can toggle between English
and any of the languages either by choosing them from the Language
Bar, or by pressing LeftAlt+Shift, or by assigning a specific shortcut
to each keyboard (though because I use many, many different scripts in
my work, I have different selections of keyboards installed at
different times, so I don't bother with specific shortcuts except for
getting back to English.)
> > > > and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box. >>-
Ashok Kothare
"Grammatim". Please log on the blog and read the page. Also ask other
interested in the topic to read it. My blog,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Ashok Kothare
grammatim
I have read your blog page called "Grammatim" and I have no idea what
you are talking about.
Mangal font is on my computer -- installed with Vista last month;
until I get my old hard drive back, I cannot know whether some recent
earlier version of Mangal did not comply with Unicode -- I opened it
with BabelMap and found that it contains every Unicode-specified
character in its proper place. (The glyph variants involved in
constructing conjuncts and adding matras are handled behind the
scenes, by the Devanagari IME.)
It is possible that you have a very, very, very old version of Mangal,
if you do not have the 110 Mangal characters in their proper places.
On Sep 18, 7:45 am, Ashok Kothare
<AshokKoth...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote:
> As I had said in my last mail I have loaded a page on my blog. the page is
> "Grammatim". Please log on the blog and read the page. Also ask other
> interested in the topic to read it. My blog,http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Ashok Kothare
want to say. Your argument does not justify violation of the unicode by
Microsoft. Whether latest or very old the violation has been done. That is
the point. I wish some person from the Microsoft connected with this font
work come up and reply. May be you can arrange for it. May be, dear
Grammatim, you are not competent to answer my query.
grammatim
If the ancient font you insist on continuing to use was made before
Unicode was established, you have no right to claim that it does not
match Unicode.
Just update your computer and download the free fonts.
On Sep 23, 3:57 am, Ashok Kothare
> > > > > > > > and you may reply to it on this site as well as on the comment box. -
Ashok Kothare
keep it? I have found that Google research reads my comments that means
Microsoft definetly knows what is going on in this group. Any way, your
advice is perfect but that does not solve the problem. I have put 'My stand'
on the page "Grammatim" on my blog. May be it will clear the point. The font
I am talking about is copyright 2001. Is it ancient? Unicode were all well
set by that time.
Tony Jollans
There may be individual Microsoft employees who read it on their own time
(although I doubt it), but it is not officially monitored by Microsoft. I
don't know about Google Research but one thing they are not, is connected to
Microsoft.
Secondly, this seems to be a discussion going nowhere. What grammatim says
makes sense, what you, Ashok, say does not make sense to me, although I do
accept that that may be due, in part, to my lack of knowledge of Indian
scripts.
Unicode is a standard supported by all modern software, in so much as
special support is needed, but all that unicode really is is a cross
reference of code points to named characters. Individual fonts can use
whatever glyphs they like to depict the characters at particular code
points.
Mangal, as installed on my machine, has 110 glyphs at code points in the
Devanagari range (0900 to 097F) and I have no reason to think there is
anything wrong with them. Are you saying that your version of the font does
not have these glyphs? Or that there is something wrong with them? Or are
you saying that you have problems entering them from the keyboard? Or what?
--
Enjoy,
Tony
"Ashok Kothare" <AshokK...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:6373BF67-1F4A-4A93...@microsoft.com...
grammatim
link to it.
After scrolling back many messages to find the link, I discovered that
in the very first sentence of the new addition, you lied about what I
said. This is how it starts:
***
My stand
Grammatim suggests that new version of mangal has 127 characters and
they are in the right places given for Devnagari script. If this is
so, I mean, new version of mangal has 127 characters then that shows
that Microsoft is making one more blunder. How, I shall explain. Font
mangal I have is, according to Grammatim, very old font, it has 586
characters and new version has only 127 characters. What happened to
all other characters?
***
If you will look at the very message you are responding to, you will
see that I said that Mangal contains exactly the 110 characters
specified by Unicode.
Why should I read any essay that so blatantly lies in its opening
words? But I go on a few more words and see that you refer to "586
characters." Maybe you are somehow looking at the OpenType resources
that _underlie_ the 110 characters. The conjunct aksharas are not
individually typed when typing in Nagari; they are automatically
called by the computer. Please learn something about how to use your
computer before continuing to waste our time.
On Sep 24, 7:22 am, Ashok Kothare
Suzanne S. Barnhill
enough to pursue this argument logically.
--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
"grammatim" <gram...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ce3ff79d-cedd-4e44...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
Tony Jollans
> does not rule out the argument.
What is the argument? What does not work as expected?
> Tony claims that no body reads from
> microsoft then, why they keep this discussion group? Just close it in that
> case. But I know you are all microsoft people ...
The discussion group is provided by Microsoft for users to interact with
each other. It is not a communication channel with Microsoft. And I can
assure you that neither I, nor grammatim, nor Suzanne are Microsoft people,
and none of us will pass anything on to Microsoft about this.
> My complain is
> no body from you or any other bothered to say anything about microsoft
> giving
> same name for two different fonts?
This was merely suggested as a possible reason for the problem you are
experiencing. It seems as though this is not, in fact, the case. It is,
however, unclear as to what the problem actually is?
--
Enjoy,
Tony
Ashok Kothare
here. I admit that I wrote 127 and that was a typographic mistake however, it
does not rule out the argument. Secondly, my english is Indian and you
americans may find it different but that is always the case, when Japanese
write english you americans laugh it away.Thirdly, mangal font I have is
original microsoft font file copyright 2001. If any one of you is wanting to
see it please, send your email ID on my email which is available on my blog.
I shall send the font file to you. Tony claims that no body reads from
through you people. I have circumstantial evidence for that. My complain is
let me tell you all, my friends, that the blog is being read by people all
over the world and many, interested in the topic, are reading the discussion
on the blog on page "Grammatim". They are sending their comments to me. I am
collecting them all and then publish them in the coming posts, exact post
date for that I cannot tell now. Those comments will be published on page
"Unicode". I invite you all to visit the blog and know what they say. My blog
link is,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Suzanne S. Barnhill, please pass it to my friend, Grammatim.
with regards,
Ashok.
I want to reply in one place and I request Tony and Grammatim to read it
from here. I admit that I wrote 127 and that was a typographic mistake
however, it does not rule out the argument. Secondly, my english is Indian
and you americans may find it different but that is always the case, when
Japanese write english you americans laugh it away.Thirdly, mangal font I
have is original microsoft font file copyright 2001. If any one of you is
wanting to see it please, send your email ID on my email which is available
on my blog. I shall send the font file to you. Tony claims that no body reads
everything through you people. I have circumstantial evidence for that. My
face truth? Finally let me tell you all, my friends, that the blog is being
read by people all over the world and many, interested in the topic, are
reading the discussion on the blog on page "Grammatim". They are sending
their comments to me. I am collecting them all and then publish them in the
coming posts, exact post date for that I cannot tell now. Those comments will
be published on page "Unicode". I invite you all to visit the blog and know
what they say. My blog link is,
http://kothareashok.blog.co.in
Suzanne S. Barnhill, please pass it to my friend, Grammatim.
with regards,
Ashok.