> The answer for Win32 applications is, there *is* no
> concept of privacy in the clipboard.

That's not the question though.

To put it into perspective, all of us can rob banks, but only some of us
actually rob banks. All of us can steal apples from the grocery store but
only some of us steal apples from the grocery store. All of us can hit
little old ladies on the head with baseball bats, but only some of us stoop
so low as to be caught hitting old ladies on the head with baseball bats.

Just because an app _can_ read the clipboad every single time it's invoked
doesn't at all mean that the app _does_ read the clipboard.

The relevant question is what apps have been caught reading the clipboard
upon EVERY invocation of the app, WITHOUT any request by the user to do so.

> "How to clear clipboard history on Windows 10"
> https://pureinfotech.com/clear-clipboard-history-windows-10/

This is useful as an ameliorative move, but only if apps are actually
caught accessing the clipboard without any input from the user other than
invoking the app.

The question is which apps have been caught accessing the clipboard without
ANY input from the user except for the user invoking the app (which was
reported to be rampant with iOS apps).

> Yeah, it's a computer, and it's being naughty again.

This question has almost nothing, if not nothing, to do with the operating
system; it has only to do with apps caught accessing the clipboard without
any user intervention whatsoever, simply by invoking the app (which was
reported to be rampant in iOS apps).

Again, just because anyone can throw rocks at windows, only some people are
caught throwing rocks at windows.

Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents of the
clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?

--
Sometimes, on Usenet, it takes a few passes to fully clarify the question.

Libor Striz

unread,

Mar 18, 2020, 1:10:29 AM3/18/20

to

Arlen Holder <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> Wrote in message:

> The question was and is which apps have already been caught accessing theclipboard WITHOUT any user input whatsoever except for the invocation ofthe app (which was reported to be rampant on the iOS newsgroups).

You probably mean also except clipboard content managers,
as they access clipboard on background purposely.

--
Poutnik ( the Wanderer )

R.Wieser

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Mar 18, 2020, 5:13:43 AM3/18/20

to

Arlen,

> Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents
> of the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?

No. As there are no private clipboard contents. Everyting in there is
public (that info is just a google away).

Yes. With the ammount of freeware apps its quite likely one of them will
access/have accessed the clipboard when invoked. Like one of the several
simple clipboard-sharing programs.

> What apps do you know of on Windows that access the clipboard
> every time you invoke those apps without you wanting those apps to
> have that data?

:-) You didn't quite think that thru, didn't you ?

The problem you are describing there is not that of a program (for good or
bad) reading the clipboard, but the intention of the person (not the
program) who, knowingly or not, places data onto the clipboard.

In short: Its not the freeware apps problem (regardless of intention), but
that of the user.

The (obvious) solution ? Do not use programs which place data that /you/
want to keep private onto the clipboard. ...Which will be a bit hard as
even a simple cut-and-paste uses the clipboard, but hey. :-)

Though the solution to that is easy: Run those programs in their own
"sandboxes"*, with clipboard sharing disabled.

*full ones, or even just a small wrapper which intercepts the clipboard
requests and either reroutes them to program local storage or encrypts the
data and stores them under a private format.

Bottom line: Your "lets create a list of bad clipboard accessing programs"
is both futile (there might be new ones tomorrow) as well as not in any way
a solution to the actual problem (keeping your clipboard-stored data safe
from other programs).

> I hope we can stairstep to narrow down the answer

Which should have started with thinking about the question itself - on
multiple points.

One of them being that your wish to compile a list of clipboard-reading
freeware programs is already a solution itself, one /you/ regard as needed
to solve the actual problem. And as you can probably tell, I do not
regard your choice of it as anywhere near good, or even an attainable goal.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Mayayana

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Mar 18, 2020, 8:36:03 AM3/18/20

to

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

| > Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents
| > of the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?
|
| No. As there are no private clipboard contents.

Good way to put it. Arlen seems to be trying to
perfect "our" list of best freeware recipe database
programs by weeding out spyware.

Visual Studio 6 is one program that's famous for
bad design in that respect. It apparently uses the
Clipboard when it starts up. Once started, the
Clipboard is blank. That bug still sometimes catches
me. I copy a code snippet, open VB6... woops.

I seem to remember that Firefox also once did
that, but it doesn't now.

As far as I know there's also never been anything
like a rule that the Clipboard should be erased when
a program closes. Though PSP5 has a nice feature:
If there's a lot on the Clipboard it warns that I'm
leaving a lot of data in memory and asks to confirm
if I want to leave it for use in another program.

JJ

unread,

Mar 18, 2020, 9:12:55 AM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 02:56:34 -0000 (UTC), Arlen Holder wrote:
> Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents of the
> clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?
>
> Which specific freeware Windows apps would that be that access saved
> clipboard data upon mere invocation of that app, and clearly without you
> asking them to?

That's easy. Any clipboard manager software does that. i.e. at program
startup, it'll read the current clipboard contents and save it into its own
list of clipboard data. It'll also monitor the clipboard, and whenever the
contents changed, it'll be copied into its own list of clipboard data.
MS-Office softwares such as Word and Excel also do this too, because they
have built in clipboard manager.

As other have said, there's no such thing as private and public clipboard -
at least in Windows. However, in Windows, there can be multiple (true)
Desktops (not to be confused with virtual desktop).

Like the normal desktop and the logon screen which are actually two separate
Desktops. Also the normal Desktop after switching to other user while
keeping the previous user logged in.

Each Desktop has its own set of clipboard data storage, application windows,
etc. A Desktop can be shared among multiple users, and can also be made to
be accessible to a single user only. This includes access to the clipboard
contents of the Desktop. It all depends on the security attributes of the
Desktop.

Arlen Holder

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Mar 18, 2020, 11:16:54 AM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 10:13:32 +0100, R.Wieser wrote:

> In short: Its not the freeware apps problem (regardless of intention), but
> that of the user.

Hi Rudy,

Name just one.

The question isn't who "can" rob a bank, since anyone can; the question is
which apps have already been proven to be currently reading the clipboard
without user action nor desire, simply upon the mere invocation of the app.

Without an app name, the question isn't being answered, where I'll note in
the iOS thread, it was _proven_ (based on the cited article) that the iOS
apps do it - where the iOS users repeatedly blamed Windows for that
happening on iOS.

NOTE: The quoted text below is verbatim.
Dated: March 14th, 2020

o Famous iOS apps are snooping on the Pasteboard

<https://learnworthy.net/famous-ios-apps-are-snooping-on-the-pasteboard>

1. "Apps on iOS and iPadOS have unrestricted access to the system-wide
general pasteboard, also referred to as the clipboard"

2. "An app that accesses the pasteboard can also read what has been
copied on a Mac if Universal Clipboard is enabled"

3. "Access to the pasteboard in iOS and iPadOS requires no app permission
as of iOS 13.3"

4. "Security risks of this vulnerability have been thoroughly discussed in
Precise Location Information Leaking Through System Pasteboard

<https://www.mysk.blog/2020/02/24/precise-location-information-leaking-through-system-pasteboard/>

5. "Our findings only documented apps that read the pasteboard every time
the app is opened"

6. "However, apps can delay snooping on the pasteboard until some time
or event takes place (e.g. signing up), hence they are not included
in our findings."

Here's an alphabetical listing of some of the apps caught doing this:
o ABC News: com.abcnews.ABCNews, com.abcnews.ABCNews
o Accuweather: com.yourcompany.TestWithCustomTabs
o Al Jazeera English: ajenglishiphone
o AliExpress Shopping App: com.alibaba.iAliexpress
o AMAZE!!!: com.amaze.game
o Bed Bath & Beyond: com.digby.bedbathbeyond
o Bejeweled: com.ea.ios.bejeweledskies
o Block Puzzle: Game.BlockPuzzle
o CBC News: ca.cbc.CBCNews, com.H443NM7F8H.CBSNews
o Classic Bejeweled: com.popcap.ios.Bej3, com.popcap.ios.Bej3HD
o CNBC: com.nbcuni.cnbc.cnbcrtipad
o Dazn: com.dazn.theApp
o FlipTheGun: com.playgendary.flipgun
o Fox News: com.foxnews.foxnews
o Fruit Ninja: com.halfbrick.FruitNinjaLite
o Golfmasters: com.playgendary.sportmasterstwo
o Hotel Tonight: com.hoteltonight.prod
o Hotels.com: com.hotels.HotelsNearMe
o Letter Soup: com.candywriter.apollo7
o Love Nikki: com.elex.nikki
o My Emma: com.crazylabs.myemma
o New York Times: com.nytimes.NYTimes
o News Break: com.particlenews.newsbreak
o NPR: org.npr.nprnews
o ntv Nachrichten: de.n-tv.n-tvmobil
o Overstock: com.overstock.app
o Pigment Adult Coloring Book: com.pixite.pigment
o Plants vs. Zombies Heroes: com.ea.ios.pvzheroes
o Pooking Billiards City: com.pool.club.billiards.city
o PUBG Mobile: com.tencent.ig
o Recolor Coloring Book to Color: com.sumoing.ReColor
o Reuters: com.thomsonreuters.Reuters
o Russia Today: com.rt.RTNewsEnglish
o Sky Ticket: de.sky.skyonline
o Stern Nachrichten: de.grunerundjahr.sternneu
o The Economist: com.economist.lamarr
o The Huffington Post: com.huffingtonpost.HuffingtonPost
o The Wall Street Journal: com.dowjones.WSJ.ipad
o The Weather Network: com.theweathernetwork.weathereyeiphone
o TikTok: com.zhiliaoapp.musically
o Tok: com.SimpleDate.Tok
o Tomb of the Mask: com.happymagenta.fromcore, com.happymagenta.totm2
o Total Party Kill: com.adventureislands.totalpartykill
o ToTalk: totalk.gofeiyu.com
o Truecaller: com.truesoftware.TrueCallerOther
o Viber: com.viber
o Vice News: com.vice.news.VICE-News
o Watermarbling: com.hydro.dipping
o Weibo: com.sina.weibo
o Zoosk: com.zoosk.Zoosk
o 10% Happier: Meditation: com.changecollective.tenpercenthappier
o 5-0 Radio Police Scanner: com.smartestapple.50radiofree
o 8 Ball Pool: com.miniclip.8ballpoolmult
--
Usenet allows purposefully helpful adults to share solutions with others.

Arlen Holder

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Mar 18, 2020, 11:26:58 AM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 06:10:23 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Libor Striz wrote:

> You probably mean also except clipboard content managers,
> as they access clipboard on background purposely.

Hi Poutnik,

A. How do we prevent this from happening (for _those_ apps that are known)?
B. How can we most easily _test_ if a given Windows app is doing this now?

I know you well where you sometimes play silly games (akin to nospam) which
just waste our time, and other times you actually provide immense value.

Let's hope your intent today is to provide adult value to the topic.

To answer your question, I had clearly assumed it was obvious that it was
already assumed, a priori, that the user was well aware the question is
about listing specific Windows apps _unintentionally_ accessing the
clipboard, merely upon invocation, without the users' express permission.

However, given Paul's response that any app can rob a bank, one may ask
reasonably why the desired list of apps even matters.

1. The original reason for asking was that it was proven that scores of
iOS apps currently do this without the user's consent, which the
Apple posters repeatedly blamed on Microsoft - which I wanted to see
if that was a verifiable fact, or not.

2. However, even without that being the original impetus for the question,
it's still a valuable topic to discuss on this newsgroup for _just_
the Windows apps (ignoring that scores of iOS apps were caught).

3. The output is expected to be a list of apps that are known to do this.

As a bonus, two other outputs can reasonably be expected from an adult
erudite conversation on this topic, namely:

A. How do we prevent this from happening (for _those_ apps that are known)?
B. How can we most easily _test_ if a given app is doing this right now?

Kenny McCormack

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Mar 18, 2020, 11:33:09 AM3/18/20

to

In article <r4sag0$6s5$1...@dont-email.me>,

No. They would be on the list.

--
The randomly chosen signature file that would have appeared here is more than 4
lines long. As such, it violates one or more Usenet RFCs. In order to remain
in compliance with said RFCs, the actual sig can be found at the following URL:
http://user.xmission.com/~gazelle/Sigs/Noam

nospam

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Mar 18, 2020, 11:47:53 AM3/18/20

to

In article <r4teju$22i$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen.geo...@is.invalid> wrote:

> 1. The original reason for asking was that it was proven that scores of
> iOS apps currently do this without the user's consent,

as do apps on other platforms, as you were repeatedly told by several
people

> which the
> Apple posters repeatedly blamed on Microsoft

nobody blamed anyone.

pyotr filipivich

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Mar 18, 2020, 12:11:17 PM3/18/20

to

"Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> on Wed, 18 Mar 2020 08:35:51
-0400 typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

So the question comes, is there a means to "clear" the clipboard?
Other than copying a blank space to paste later?
>
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

Arlen Holder

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Mar 18, 2020, 12:16:10 PM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:12:51 +0700, JJ wrote:

> Any clipboard manager software does that

Hi JJ,

I must not have been clear in the OP, an omission for which I apologize.

*We're only interested in exposing freeware apps _unintentionally_*
*reading the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app* (as cited).

To your point of clarification, Poutnik also mentioned _intentional_
reading of the clipboard... so please see my response to him that it was
assumed, a priori, that we're not talking about exposing Windows freeware
apps that the users _intend_ on reading the clipboard upon mere invocation.

So far, from Paul and others, we are told that _any_ Windows app can
secretly rob the bank without us asking them to, but that tells us nothing
of use that we didn't know _before_ the thread was opened (AFAICT).

To his credit, Mayayana posted reputedly known Windows apps that perhaps
_do_ rob the bank without the users' express consent upon mere invocation
of that Windows app:
o *Visual Studio 6*
o *Firefox*
o ? any others ?
--
These would clearly be apps to avoid in favor of corresponding freeware
that does _not_ rob the bank sans permission upon mere invocation of the
Windows freeware app.

Shadow

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Mar 18, 2020, 12:18:01 PM3/18/20

to

BleachBit will do that.(and numerous other privacy apps, but
BleachBit is cross-platform, libre-ware and trustworthy)
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012

Arlen Holder

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Mar 18, 2020, 12:18:15 PM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 11:47:50 -0400, nospam wrote:

> as do apps on other platforms, as you were repeatedly told by several
> people

Name just one.
--
Bullshitters always fail this, the simplest 3-word test of their facts.

Libor Striz

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Mar 18, 2020, 12:37:33 PM3/18/20

to

Arlen Holder <arlen.geo...@is.invalid> Wrote in message:

> I know you well where you sometimes play silly games (akin to nospam) whichjust waste our time, and other times you actually provide immense value.

> Let's hope your intent today is to provide adult value to the topic.

This is one of your games
I am not going to participate on.

Shadow

unread,

Mar 18, 2020, 12:47:38 PM3/18/20

to

Oh fsck. I forgot the OT when I replied and now I'm watching
the thread.
Change watch and kill priorities?
Nah, I deserve the punishment.

R.Wieser

unread,

Mar 18, 2020, 12:58:19 PM3/18/20

to

Arlen,

>> In short: Its not the freeware apps problem (regardless of intention),
>> but that of the user.
>

> Name just one.

I already did. And as it does not make any sense to repeat already given
answers, I suggest you re-read my previous message.

> the question is which apps have already been proven to be currently
> reading the clipboard without user action nor desire, simply upon the
> mere invocation of the app.

Kiddo, repeating the same question again doesn't help to clarify what you
are after. Also, I already explained why that that "without user action
*nor desire*" part (emphasis mine) is problematic. Which you now have
ignored.

Besides, if all you are out for is to show iOS lovers that Windows freeware
programs have the same behaviour than all you need is just one or two (or at
most a handfull) of those aps, which doesn't come near to your "which apps
have", which seems to indicate you need a long, if not full list. Thats
just wastefull.

And there is another problem: some programs may habitualy be reading the
clipboard without any action or desire of the user, but that does not
automaticaly mean that there is any malicious intent - but instead possibly
just an uniformed (by choice perhaps) user.

Did I already say "Which should have started with thinking about the
question itself" ? You really should you know. The better the question,
the more chance you get a usable answer.

> Without an app name, the question isn't being answered,

Than I suggest you take a peek at the public data AV comanies and virus
hunters offer. You know, google for it (yourself).

> where I'll note in the iOS thread

.....

I've ignored everything from that point on, as it doesn't seem to have the
slightest to do with Windows.

> Usenet allows purposefully helpful adults to share solutions with others.

Usenet also allows leeches to prey on the helpfull, and giving nothing in
return.

> A. How do we prevent this from happening (for _those_ apps that are
> known)?

I've already given you the answer to that. Put them in a VM or otherwise
intercept their access to the clipboard. The isolation can be made to
work in both directions.

But, trying to isolate the baddies would be like trying to use a list of
names to keep muggers at bay: No matter how many muggers you blacklist there
will always be more, new ones. You stand a much better chance by
isolating the "good" programs which clipboard contents (read: even simple
copy/paste actions) should not be accessible by the world & dog.

Ofcourse, the /best/ solution would be to stop installing random crap you
(can) find on tha intarwebz. If that can't be done (addictions come in
many forms :-) ) another, easy one, could be to at add a malware scanner
next to the virussscanner.

> B. How can we most easily _test_ if a given Windows app is doing this
> now?

/Easiest/ ? Just ask someone else to do it for you. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

R.Wieser

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Mar 18, 2020, 1:08:41 PM3/18/20

to

pyotr,

> So the question comes, is there a means to "clear" the
> clipboard? Other than copying a blank space to paste later?

Lol, you want to wrap something /that/ simple in a program ?

But yes, possible. IIRC you could use some HTA for it (effectivily
instructing the browser to clear the clipboard for you). I can imagine
that AutoIt (a rather powerfull scripting language) can also do it.

And I seem to remember some freeware program which you can pipe data into,
which than gets put into the clipboard. An action which could be put in a
shortcut (for easiest access).

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Arlen Holder

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Mar 18, 2020, 1:11:04 PM3/18/20

to

On Wed, 18 Mar 2020 17:37:26 +0100 (GMT+01:00), Libor Striz wrote:

> This is one of your games
> I am not going to participate on.

Hi Poutnik,

This thread is asking for a named list of badly behaved Windows programs.
o As Mayana inferred, *these would be Windows freeware programs to avoid*.

Just because we _can_ rummage through people's garbage to obtain their bank
statements, doesn't mean that reputable people actually _do_ so without any
need to have done so (and without users' knowledge or express consent).

This cite clearly states the opinion that the scores of listed (admittedly
only iOS) apps that have been _caught_ rummaging through your garbage for
personal information is obviously the wrong thing for those iOS apps to do.

o Famous iOS apps are snooping on the Pasteboard (March 14th, 2020)
<https://learnworthy.net/famous-ios-apps-are-snooping-on-the-pasteboard>

I concur, and I claim that those apps would likely be apps to be avoided.
o All this thread asks for is a similar list of Windows programs.

Put in colloquial terms, the goal here is to list any known Windows
programs that have absolutely no business rummaging through your garbage,
without your knowledge or consent, and yet, who are known to be doing so,
merely upon invocation of the Windows program.

In summary:
*What Windows programs are known to access the clipboard merely upon*
*invocation (which have no need to do so) that we know of*?

Arlen Holder

Mar 18, 2020, 2:31:50 PM3/18/20

to

"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote

| So the question comes, is there a means to "clear" the clipboard?
| Other than copying a blank space to paste later?

You mean like for when you have to lend your
computer to James Bond? There's an API, with
functions in most programming languages. Oddly,
it was never added to Windows Script Host.
Probably the simplest method without writing
software would be this:

<HTML><HEAD>
<SCRIPT LANGUAGE="VBScript">
window.clipboardData.clearData
</SCRIPT>
</HEAD><BODY></BODY></HTML>

Paste that into Notepad and save as an HTML file.
Then just double click it and close the resulting
window.

Of course, on Win10 it may complain that you don't
have permission to clear the clipboard.... or use IE...
or open an HTML file.... or double click with the mouse
prior to buying stuff at the Windows Store....
but it should work fine on XP. :)

R.Wieser

unread,

Mar 18, 2020, 3:13:12 PM3/18/20

to

Mayayana,

> Oddly, it was never added to Windows Script Host.

Most likely they thought about it at some point, but decided that the
problem our esteemed OP posted about would than just be too easy to create,
even by a mediocre scriptkiddie (like the "cd tray virus" of yesteryear) -
or even just a nuissance "clear the clipboard every tenth of a second"
script.

At least, I wish to think that MS considered that. It /could/ ofcourse
just be a kind "/we/ don't need it" kind of lazyness though.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

pyotr filipivich

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Mar 19, 2020, 12:51:14 PM3/19/20

to

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> on Wed, 18 Mar 2020 20:12:59 +0100

typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

I am of the opinion that a lot of interface issues with Windows
are because the people who work _on_ the interface think it is a neat
idea, but don't know anyone who actual works _with_ the interface.

pyotr filipivich

unread,

Mar 19, 2020, 12:51:14 PM3/19/20

to

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> on Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:08:30 +0100

typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

>pyotr,
>
>> So the question comes, is there a means to "clear" the
>> clipboard? Other than copying a blank space to paste later?
>
>Lol, you want to wrap something /that/ simple in a program ?

B-) That's why I asked.

Some of it is the whole "last one out empty the trash" element.
That when program X is closed, the clipboard gets emptied. Some
programs already do ask when you have a lot of stuff on the clipboard.
But how much is "a lot"?

>But yes, possible. IIRC you could use some HTA for it (effectivily
>instructing the browser to clear the clipboard for you). I can imagine
>that AutoIt (a rather powerfull scripting language) can also do it.
>
>And I seem to remember some freeware program which you can pipe data into,
>which than gets put into the clipboard. An action which could be put in a
>shortcut (for easiest access).

I think I'll just try to remember to copy a blank space to the
clipboard.
>
>Regards,
>Rudy Wieser

Mayayana

unread,

unread,

Mar 20, 2020, 1:51:44 PM3/20/20

to

In article <r52uts$u8d$1...@dont-email.me>, Mayayana

<maya...@invalid.nospam> wrote:

> Everything on a Mac is either effortless
> or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.

false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

unread,

Mar 20, 2020, 7:57:18 PM3/20/20

to

On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 at 13:35:47, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
wrote:
[]

> Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
>recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,

[]
Didn't you write one? Someone did, and I was sort of one of (your I
thought it was) beta testers. If it was you, did it ever proceed any
further?
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If vegetarians eat vegetables,..beware of humanitarians!

Mayayana

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Mar 20, 2020, 8:17:08 PM3/20/20

to

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote

| > Did you notice that a couple of Linux people got nasty
| >recently when I said youtube-dl needs a GUI? Those people,
| []
| Didn't you write one? Someone did, and I was sort of one of (your I
| thought it was) beta testers. If it was you, did it ever proceed any
| further?

I use it myself. After you tried it I made a couple
of minor adjustments, but it's all I need. I don't have a
use for the endless command line options so I didn't
see any reason to add them. So it's done, weighing in
at a whopping 20 KB. :)

The one thing I'd like to fix, though I'm not sure I
can: I haven't figured out a way to keep the display
updated. All the reporting from youtube-dl shows up
only when downloading is finished because IE doesn't
allow for painting the window before a function
finishes. There are hacks to get around that, but
so far I haven't found one to work.

pyotr filipivich

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Mar 21, 2020, 12:48:01 AM3/21/20

to

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> on Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:51:40 -0400

typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?

Paul

otherwise known as a command line, and much more than 'some kind of
access to the unix core'.

> I think it's an
> outdated preconception, though, to think that one
> only gets to the "real stuff" when the mouse is disabled.

the mouse isn't disabled with the command line.

> That's the attitude of the oldtimers who make fun of
> people who want a GUI. But actually, command line
> is very limited and is mostly used to send command line
> arguments to executables. The commands are really
> simple automations rather than extra functionality. Most
> things you can do in console can be done easier in the
> GUI. Which, of course, was the whole point of making
> a GUI.

not exactly.

> Which raises an interesting question: What makes a
> system accessible? Programming on a Mac requires
> using their hardware, with a license and their tools.

it doesn't require it. there are third party tools for the mac and
always has been.

programming on windows is normally done with microsoft's tools, but
there are third party options as well.

> At the other extreme, programming on Linux is open
> to all and lots of methods are provided. But if you
> don't have well designed, intuitive tools and good
> docs then you're lost. That's what's always been nice
> about Windows: There are numerous levels of expertise
> with tools and docs at each level.

same for mac.

khaha

unread,

Mar 21, 2020, 10:56:44 AM3/21/20

to

On 21/03/2020 11:35, Arlen Holder wrote:
>
> (I haven't tested them in a while though.)
>
>

Little wonders nobody cares what you write here.

pyotr filipivich

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Mar 21, 2020, 12:19:53 PM3/21/20

to

"Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> on Sat, 21 Mar 2020 08:34:42

-0400 typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

>"pyotr filipivich" <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote
>
>| So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?
>
> They have something called AppleScript. And there's
>some kind of access to the Unix core. I think it's an
>outdated preconception, though, to think that one
>only gets to the "real stuff" when the mouse is disabled.
>That's the attitude of the oldtimers who make fun of
>people who want a GUI. But actually, command line
>is very limited and is mostly used to send command line
>arguments to executables. The commands are really
>simple automations rather than extra functionality. Most
>things you can do in console can be done easier in the
>GUI. Which, of course, was the whole point of making
>a GUI.

Most things, true.

But for me and my purposes, getting to a DOS prompt and running
robocopy (or a batch file which calls it and the parameter list) beats
having to tell Windows "yes overwrite that file, no do not overwrite
that file, yes, yes, no, yes, size eight, yes..."

>
> Which raises an interesting question: What makes a
>system accessible? Programming on a Mac requires
>using their hardware, with a license and their tools.
>At the other extreme, programming on Linux is open
>to all and lots of methods are provided. But if you
>don't have well designed, intuitive tools and good
>docs then you're lost. That's what's always been nice
>about Windows: There are numerous levels of expertise
>with tools and docs at each level.

Yes.much of my gripping has less to do with the parts which work
"invisibly" as with how the changes in the GUI interfere with the
muscle memory I had from the previous GUI. Its like getting a new car
which has the windshield wiper where the shift lever was on the last
one. Lot of "oops, didn't mean to do that!"

pyotr filipivich

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Mar 21, 2020, 12:19:53 PM3/21/20

to

"Mayayana" <maya...@invalid.nospam> on Fri, 20 Mar 2020 13:35:47

-0400 typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

"it's a simple procedure involving lasers..."

Sigh.

pyotr filipivich

unread,

Mar 21, 2020, 12:19:53 PM3/21/20

to

nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid> on Sat, 21 Mar 2020 07:18:23 -0400

typed in microsoft.public.windowsxp.general the following:

>In article <767b7ftbiapehlqd7...@4ax.com>, pyotr
>filipivich <ph...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> >
>> >> Everything on a Mac is either effortless
>> >> or can't be done. It's locked down, top-shelf, and kiddie-ready.
>> >
>> >false. the only limitation is that of the person using it.
>>
>> So you know of a means to get to a command line on a MAC?
>
>trivial. have you even used a mac?? sure doesn't sound like it.

Once or twice, back when it was the New Thing.
The question was mostly rhetorical.

Some days I think having a PDP-11 might be a solution to my winter
heating needs as well.

unread,

Jul 5, 2020, 4:57:43 PM7/5/20

to

My question was whether this is only a problem on iOS or also Windows.

With the advent of the iOS 14 beta, well-known apps have been recently
publicly caught and outed...

Each time they're caught (so far anyway), the company immediately says it's
a nasty bug, and then immediately vows to remove the reading of the
clipboard on every keypress.

o *iOS 14 - Linked-In app caught reading the user's clipboard in background (including from other sources)*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/2VZ5a3QsvBc>

o *Reddit caught red handed by iOS 14 copying the clipboard contents on iOS devices*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/-gvgKjTALvI>

o *iOS 14: TikTok seems to have been caught abusing the clipboard in a quite extraordinary way.*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/dRKgQG8jGo8/>

o *Famous iOS apps are snooping on the Pasteboard - Learn Worthy*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/XXaeEvEB79Y/>

o *Even more iOS apps caught snooping clipboard contents ...*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IHVirXnbJF0/>
etc.

For example, here's just one snippet from just one article cited above:

o *TikTok and 53 other iOS apps still snoop your sensitive clipboard data*
<https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/06/tiktok-and-53-other-ios-apps-still-snoop-your-sensitive-clipboard-data/>

o 10% Happier: Meditation com.changecollective.tenpercenthappier
o 5-0 Radio Police Scanner com.smartestapple.50radiofree
o 8 Ball Pool com.miniclip.8ballpoolmult
o ABC News com.abcnews.ABCNews
o AMAZE!!! com.amaze.game
o Accuweather com.yourcompany.TestWithCustomTabs
o Al Jazeera English ajenglishiphone
o AliExpress Shopping App com.alibaba.iAliexpress
o Bed Bath & Beyond com.digby.bedbathbeyond
o Bejeweled com.ea.ios.bejeweledskies
o Block Puzzle Game.BlockPuzzle
o CBC News ca.cbc.CBCNews
o CBS News com.H443NM7F8H.CBSNews
o CNBC com.nbcuni.cnbc.cnbcrtipad
o Classic Bejeweled HD com.popcap.ios.Bej3HD
o Classic Bejeweled com.popcap.ios.Bej3
o Dazn com.dazn.theApp
o FlipTheGun com.playgendary.flipgun
o Fox News com.foxnews.foxnews
o Fruit Ninja com.halfbrick.FruitNinjaLite
o Golfmasters com.playgendary.sportmasterstwo
o Hotel Tonight com.hoteltonight.prod
o Hotels.com com.hotels.HotelsNearMe
o Letter Soup com.candywriter.apollo7
o Love Nikki com.elex.nikki
o My Emma com.crazylabs.myemma
o NPR org.npr.nprnews
o New York Times com.nytimes.NYTimes
o News Break com.particlenews.newsbreak
o Overstock com.overstock.app
o PUBG Mobile com.tencent.ig
o Pigment Adult Coloring Book com.pixite.pigment
o Plants vs. Zombies Heroes com.ea.ios.pvzheroes
o Pooking Billiards City com.pool.club.billiards.city
o Recolor Coloring Book to Color com.sumoing.ReColor
o Reuters com.thomsonreuters.Reuters
o Russia Today com.rt.RTNewsEnglish
o Sky Ticket de.sky.skyonline
o Stern Nachrichten de.grunerundjahr.sternneu
o The Economist com.economist.lamarr
o The Huffington Post com.huffingtonpost.HuffingtonPost
o The Wall Street Journal com.dowjones.WSJ.ipad
o The Weather Network com.theweathernetwork.weathereyeiphone
o TikTok com.zhiliaoapp.musically
o ToTalk totalk.gofeiyu.com
o Tok com.SimpleDate.Tok
o Tomb of the Mask com.happymagenta.fromcore
o Tomb of the Mask: Color com.happymagenta.totm2
o Total Party Kill com.adventureislands.totalpartykill
o Truecaller com.truesoftware.TrueCallerOther
o Viber com.viber
o Vice News com.vice.news.VICE-News
o Watermarbling com.hydro.dipping
o Weibo com.sina.weibo
o Zoosk com.zoosk.Zoosk
o ntv Nachrichten de.n-tv.n-tvmobil

My question was whether this is only a problem on iOS or also Windows.
--
My question was whether this is only a problem on iOS or also Windows.

nospam

unread,

Jul 5, 2020, 5:11:57 PM7/5/20

to

In article <rdtes4$hau$1...@news.mixmin.net>, Arlen Holder

<arlen...@newmachine.com> wrote:

> My question was whether this is only a problem on iOS or also Windows.

all platforms.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 5, 2020, 6:11:17 PM7/5/20

to

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 17:11:53 -0400, nospam wrote:

> all platforms.

Hi nospam,

Logically, sensibly, and reasonably, I would tend to agree that this is a
privacy/security problem that shouldn't be any different on any of the five
common consumer platforms.

However, when I asked on the Android, Windows, and Linux newsgroups, most
of the responses seemed to be "this is normal", which, on iOS, at least the
response was "this is creepy" (which I would agree with).

So I'm not sure _why_ the Android, Linux, and Windows groups seem to think
this is normal behavior to read the clipboard upon every keystroke (or
invocation of the app).

I do notice that the TikTok and other apps _only_ did it on iOS, which is
an enigma to me, because if it's useful to them on iOS, why wouldn't it be
just as useful to them on Android?

Here are the threads, from a while ago, asking on each of those platforms:

o *What common specific Android apps are known to access the clipboard upon mere invocation & without your permission?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/hdNb3BeYm44>

o *What common specific Linux apps are known to access the clipboard upon mere invocation & without your permission?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/VmByXYAaJts>

o *Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents of the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/microsoft.public.windowsxp.general/wDbAqMr-0oY>

In each of those threads, the question was met with derision simply
because, it seems, those users _expect_ this kind of creepy behavior.

I don't.
--
I don't yet understand why this creepy behavior only bothers iOS users...

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 5, 2020, 7:02:58 PM7/5/20

to

On Sun, 05 Jul 2020 18:21:38 -0400, nospam wrote:

>> So I'm not sure _why_ the Android, Linux, and Windows groups seem to think
>> this is normal behavior to read the clipboard upon every keystroke (or
>> invocation of the app).
>

> ignorance.
>
> how do you think a clipboard manager app works, which runs in the
> background?
>
> a clipboard manager probably isn't doing anything sleazy (at least the
> reputable ones) with what's on the clipboard, but that doesn't mean a
> different app couldn't do something nefarious.

Hi nospam,

It could be ignorance on the part of the Android, Windows, & Linux users,
as when I first broached the subject, en masse, the trolls came out, and
even some of the regulars seemed to think it's perfectly normal for an app
that has absolutely zero need for the clipboard, to be reading it.

I can see how it's a tad more dangerous, perhaps, on iOS simply because of
the integration with the Mac clipboard (but such integration may be on
Windows, Linux, and Android for all I know).

What I do know is that when an app is called out for this behavior on iOS,
they turn it off and apologize, claiming it's a bug (as you're well aware).

Seems to me Android, Windows, and Linux need the _same_ kind of enhanced
privacy that this new iOS 14 popup message provides.... but, as we both
noted, the Android, Linux, and Windows users appear to be either ignorant,
or, perhaps, they know something we don't know.

I just don't get it why _all_ five platforms shouldn't have this creepy
behavior pointed out, if it's occurring on all five platforms.
--
Usenet is most useful when adult post with purposefully helpful intent.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 5, 2020, 7:30:35 PM7/5/20

to

unread,

Jul 6, 2020, 5:51:27 AM7/6/20

to

Arlen,

Any reason you are necro-bumping a four /month/ old thread ?

And no, splaffing a number of messages all re-iterating what has already
been said does not really add anything to the subject.

> With the advent of the iOS 14 beta, well-known apps have been
> recently publicly caught and outed...

Old news kiddo.

> Each time they're caught (so far anyway), the company immediately
> says it's a nasty bug, and then immediately vows to remove the reading
> of the clipboard on every keypress.

Yeah, we also read those articles. Whats your point (if any) ?

> However, when I asked on the Android, Windows, and Linux newsgroups,
> most of the responses seemed to be "this is normal", which, on iOS, at
> least
> the response was "this is creepy" (which I would agree with).

Arlen, there is a secret component thats part of many discussions but only
few people know of. Is called "context". Both of the above are true at
the same time, but not in the same context.

> some of the regulars seemed to think it's perfectly normal for an
> app that has absolutely zero need for the clipboard, to be reading it.

Thats not what they (me included) said. But hey, when you ignore the
context in which something has been said you get conclusion garbage like
that.

> Seems to me Android, Windows, and Linux need the _same_ kind of
> enhanced privacy that this new iOS 14 popup message provides....

Why are you telling us that ? What /good/ does that do ? What do you
expect from us ?

> but, as we both noted, the Android, Linux, and Windows users appear
> to be either ignorant,

Ah yes, the mighty Arlen is way above the rif-raf that the readers and
contributors of all these different newsgroups are made outof. :-)

I ask you again: What /good/ does your telling *us* that all the OSes need
better privacy controls ? /We/ have *zero* control about what the
respective companies do.

> or, perhaps, they know something we don't know.

Yes, /we/ know something /you/ (you're still not a royalty, so no "we") do
not yet grasp: complaining must be done toward people who can actually
change something about a situation. In all other cases the best you can do
is to /inform/ the other.

> Lewis has a good point that the "bug" can be accidental if the
> companies caught doing it (e.g., Reddit, Linked-In, TikTok,
> et al.) simply blindly linked in code that they never even understood...

Thats called "using (third-party or not) libraries". And its pretty-much
the same as you are doing when you, in your "tutorials", tell people to
(download and) use a specific program to get a certain result ... You
have /zero/ idea about what that program actually does other than what you
read about it. So, hypocrisy much ?

> My query is simply why it's _clearly_ always considered a bug when

By whom ? By the company that introduced that "bug" ? Are you really
expecting them to say "yes, we did put spyware in our product, and now you
caught us doing it we will try to find another way" ? Really ?

> ... ... and yet ... ...
>
> On all the other common consumer platforms that I asked the question of...
> o It's _not_ considered a bug?

Most of us are old enough to be aware that you should not just believe the
excuse of someone who did something wrong. You seem to be one of the few
people left who doesn't seem to be. How come ? Or are you just trolling ?

> What bothers me most so far in this thread is people think it's normal.

They don't kiddo, they don't. Its just you going doing business as usual,
stirring stuff together and looking at the mess you are left with as being
"the facts".

Question: What is the opposite of "right" ? There is /ofcourse/ just one,
right ? Or are you now going to explain that there are circumstances where
it means one thing, and others in which it means something else ? :-p

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Philip Herlihy

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Jul 6, 2020, 6:16:20 AM7/6/20

to

In article <rdus6p$1jvk$1...@gioia.aioe.org>, add...@not.available says...

>
> Arlen,
>
> Any reason you are necro-bumping a four /month/ old thread ?
>

The notion of "necro-bumping" brought a little joy into my Monday morning...

--

Phil, London

unread,

Jul 6, 2020, 1:42:50 PM7/6/20

to

Arlen,

> The adults will be able to comprehend the enigma, which
> is, essentially:
> a. Why, when this happens on iOS, by all accounts, it's a bug...

[quote=me]

By whom ? By the company that introduced that "bug" ? Are you really
expecting them to say "yes, we did put spyware in our product, and now you
caught us doing it we will try to find another way" ? Really ?

[/quote]

> b. But, when it happens on the other operating systems, it's not?

[quote=me]

Most of us are old enough to be aware that you should not just believe the
excuse of someone who did something wrong. You seem to be one of the few
people left who doesn't seem to be. How come ? Or are you just trolling ?

[/quote]

Lolz! Posting

> This post is not for Rudy

-- directly followed by

> To Rudy...

Make up your mind kid, either it is for me or it isn't. I'm no
"schrodinger's cat" you know.

> 1. I am well educated, a scientist, and an engineer, which
> means I know full well how to _document_ a subject

No, you /don't/ know how to do that. You show the lack of it every time
you claim to have created another "tutorial". Its mostly badly written
junk, with ill consideration to whomever has to read/follow it. Something
I've underbuild commenting on that list of "tutorials" you posted a few
weeks back. But you ignored all of that as well. 'Cause thats all you
/can/ do.

As for your "I am well educated, a scientist, and an engineer" claim ? Fat
chance.

Lets face it, your infantile ranting towards everyone who doesn't agree with
you tells me that you are most likely /not/ "well educated". If you would
be than you would not need to do that, because you would know how to defend
your own position by providing actual arguments - which you seldom, if ever,
do.

As for the latter ones ? If that where true you would be able to figure
stuff out for yourself instead of continuously leeching on others,
expecting - no, /demanding/ that they do all the work. And ofcourse it
would also be rather visible in your "tutorials", which it definitily isn't.

> You have absolutely zero intent to add value, which is why
> you can't and never have.

[quote=me]
Why don't you try to prove that ? Just find /all/ my messages and
describe, for each and every one of them how it was not helpful to the
intended recipient of that post. Good luck. :-)

Kiddo, don't you realise by now that "never", "always", "noone", "everyone"
and other indications like those are rather easy to break ? Just a
*single one* opposing it, and you fall flat on your face.
[/quote]

You're (educated and) a /scientist/ ? Ha, don't make me laugh. If you
would have been you would have known the above, and not even have /tried/ to
make that claim of yours to begin with. But here you are, posting it for
the umptied time.

> 2. As for the "four months" (which to whiny children like you,
> Rudy, is a long time, but for adults, it's how long seeking answers
> takes sometimes)...

So ? What /are/ those answers ? I did not see any. Just some "a day
late and a dollar short" info reposts and some complaints about stuff that
/should/ have been clear to you all those months ago.

> With all the above in mind, I'm genuinely seeking _answers_
> to the stated problem set,

Yeah, you do. As long as /you/ do not need to lift a finger in getting them
ofcourse.

As for the "stated problem set" ? Kiddo, just a few weeks ago you asked
for *the* hotkey for /all/ chromium based browser programs that would cause
a specific settings page to pop up. If /I/ can explain to you how that
question sucks than an /educated scientist/ should be able to recognise that
long before he even thinks of putting it to paper. Yet, you did post it ...

And I may be wrong, but me pointing out the flaw(s) in your question AND
making a suggestion to what could be used instead would, by some, be
considered helpfull ... But as I did not stoke your ego with it you
denied yourself to learn from it. Which is /your/ problem, not mine.

> 3. The reason for revitalizing this thread, which, again, is beyond
> your child-like brain to comprehend Rudy, is that again, just this
> week, TikTok (and plenty of others, like Linked-In & Reddit)
> got caught doing it again.

Yeah, and /anyone/ could have read that on their favorite tech
bulletins/fora a few days back. I know that I did. As such its old news.
And as shown in my previous reply, you have not brought anything /new/ into
the thread. But you sure did show that you have little, if any,
understanding of what was offered in the direction of answers and/or
explanations all those months ago.

> The adults will be able to comprehend the enigma, which is,
>essentially:
> a. Why, when this happens on iOS, by all accounts, it's a
> bug...
> b. But, when it happens on the other operating systems,
> it's not?

Thats the third time you've stated the same question, with the second time
being at the top of your post. Alas, my answer to it doesn't change.

> In summary, the worthless pieces of shit like Rudy Weiser will _never_
> help anyone answwer any technical question (they can't);

[quote=me]
Why don't you try to prove that ? Just find /all/ my messages and
describe, for each and every one of them how it was not helpful to the
intended recipient of that post. Good luck. :-)

Kiddo, don't you realise by now that "never", "always", "noone", "everyone"
and other indications like those are rather easy to break ? Just a
*single one* opposing it, and you fall flat on your face.
[/quote]

Kiddo, as always you refuse to answer even the simplest questions, like the
ones in my previous post or this one, or underbuild your own claims -
instead to just repeat accusations like a broken record. I said it before
and I'll repeat it here : you're pathetic.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 6, 2020, 2:02:42 PM7/6/20

to

If anyone ever wonders why I point to Rudy Wieser's posts to prove, beyond
any shadow of a doubt, he's a child who can't possibly add value, the post
I just deleted from him is a perfect example of him proving that point for
me, simply by me pointing to exactly the crap that he spews forth.

Moving forward on the technical topic, we found out today that Android is
apparently adding the capability to notify the user when an app that has no
reason to use the clipboard is constantly reading your clipboard.
o *Those on Android 10... is it worth upgrading from 9 to 10?*
*What are the pitfalls you've experienced & the benefits?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/X65cMyzAn-g>

And, of course, it's well known to all but low-IQ morons like Rudy Wieser
that everyone caught, to date, e.g., Linked-In, Reddit, TikTok, et al., has
vowed to 'fix' the code so that it no longer snoops on your clipboard.

o *LinkedIn says iOS clipboard snooping after every key press is a bug*
<https://www.zdnet.com/article/linkedin-says-ios-clipboard-snooping-after-every-key-press-is-a-bug-will-fix/>
"A LinkedIn spokesperson told ZDNet yesterday that a bug in the company's
iOS app was responsible for a seemingly privacy-intrusive behavior
spotted by one of its users on Thursday."

"LinkedIn said Friday it would stop the practice, explaining its app
was doing so to perform an equality check between what a user is typing
and what's in their clipboard... The company didn't explain why the
practice was in place to begin with..."
<https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/4/21313214/reddit-code-clipboard-privacy-copy-ios>

o *Reddit says it's fixing code in its iOS app that copied clipboard contents*
<https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/4/21313214/reddit-code-clipboard-privacy-copy-ios>
"Reddit says it's releasing a fix for a piece of code that copied
contents from users' clipboards. 'We tracked this down to a codepath in
the post composer that checks for URLs in the pasteboard and then
suggests a post title based on the text contents of the URL,' a Reddit
spokesperson wrote in an email to The Verge..."
"'We removed this code and are releasing the fix on July 14th'."

o *TikTok says it will stop accessing clipboard content on iOS devices*
<https://www.theverge.com/2020/6/26/21304228/tiktok-security-ios-clipboard-access-ios14-beta-feature>

"A TikTok spokesperson said in a statement emailed to The Verge on Friday
that it had submitted an update to the App Store to remove the feature,
which it described as an anti-spam measure. The feature was never
introduced to Android devices, according to the company."

And we found out that there are Linux variants which protect the clipboard:
o <https://www.qubes-os.org/>
o <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/>
o <https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/copy-paste/>
"On Copy/Paste Security
The scheme is secure because it doesn't allow other VMs to steal the
content of the clipboard."
etc.

So we have progress in three of the four common consumer OS's I use:
o iOS 14 will notify the user
o Android 10 (reputedly) will notify the user
o Linux (at least with Qubes) reputedly will not allow the app access

We just need to figure more about how Microsoft plans to handle it.
--
Usenet is wonderful when everyone pitches in helpfully with knowledge.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

unread,

Jul 6, 2020, 5:43:26 PM7/6/20

to

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 19:42:32, R.Wieser <add...@not.available> wrote:
>Arlen,
[lots of stuff I agree with snipped]

Rudy,
please stop replying to Arlen - I know it's hard. But the rest of us
have mostly killfiled him, so only see his output when someone does a
public reply to him. (Replying to him serves little or no purpose; he's
incapable of absorbing the point[s] you're trying to make.)

[To self:]
John,
please stop asking Rudy (and others) to stop replying to Arlen.

(-:
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The death of democracy is not likely to be an assassination from ambush.
It will be a slow extinction from apathy, indifference, and undernourishment.
-Robert Maynard Hutchins, educator (1899-1977)

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 6, 2020, 8:15:22 PM7/6/20

to

On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:41:16 +0100, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

> he's
> incapable of absorbing the point[s] you're trying to make.)

> --
> J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Hi J. P. Gilliver,

I've always considered you an adult, so I'm going to ask you a simple adult
question, ok?

An adult has at least a single fact backing up his belief system, right?
o Do you?

Let's see, shall we?
o I'm going to ask you an _adult_ question, John P. Gilliver.

It's only three words, but I think you'll _fail_ this simple question.
o Name just one

Name once in the entire history of Usenet, where I did what you claimed.
o Name just once.

Point to even a _single_ post, which is not an attempt to get the trolls
(like Rudy Wieser) to simply go away and infest some other thread.

Point to one post, John Gilliver, where I did what you claim.
o Point to a single one.
--
The mark of a bullshitter is they can't back up a single claim they make.

Arlen Holder

Jul 11, 2020, 9:03:07 PM7/11/20

to

Update (based on threads posted today)...

This thread was posted by someone today of what we've discussed prior:
o *TikTok and 32 other iOS apps still snoop your sensitive clipboard data*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/6YRFPNiRTo0>

My global response, which ties the operating systems together, is below.

On Sat, 11 Jul 2020 21:57:29 -0000 (UTC), CrawdaddinCrawdad wrote:

> On background, a spokesperson said that TikTok
> for Android never implemented the anti-spam feature.

This has been reported & discussed in detail on each of these newsgroups.
o Interestingly, the same topic was considered different by each newsgroup!

iOS:

o *Even more iOS apps caught snooping clipboard contents ...*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/IHVirXnbJF0>

Android:

o *What common specific Android apps are known to access the clipboard upon mere invocation & without your permission?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/hdNb3BeYm44>

Windows:
o *Do any Windows freeware apps habitually access the private contents of the clipboard upon mere invocation of the app?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.comp.freeware/AI5SiPSGyaE>

Linux:

o *What common specific Linux apps are known to access the clipboard upon mere invocation & without your permission?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/alt.os.linux/VmByXYAaJts>

For some reasons, it's only considered a big problem, on iOS.
o I'm not quite sure why, but you can read the threads for the detail.

Similar iOS Discussions:

o *Reddit caught red handed by iOS 14 copying the clipboard contents on iOS devices*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/-gvgKjTALvI>

o *iOS 14: TikTok seems to have been caught abusing the clipboard in a quite extraordinary way.*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/dRKgQG8jGo8>

o *iOS 14 - Linked-In app caught reading the user's clipboard in background (including from other sources)*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/misc.phone.mobile.iphone/2VZ5a3QsvBc>

For whatever reason, the Android folks aren't as worried, where Android has
had the ability, since Android 6, to view & remove clipboard access on an
app-by-app basis:
o *Freeware "App Inspector" by Ubqsoft [free, no ads, GSF independent] lists installed apps & their "secret" permissions [apparently]*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/3MEPsDCDCSs>

And, where, in Android 10, you can set that clipboard access more easily:
o *Those on Android 10... is it worth upgrading from 9 to 10? What are the pitfalls you've experienced & the benefits?*
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.mobile.android/X65cMyzAn-g>

In summary, note that each operating systems apparently handles this
clipboard access privacy/security hole quite differently:

A. iOS 14 tells you when it's happening & allows you to block it.
B. Android 6+ can block it; but doesn't tell you when it's happening.
C. Windows, as far as I can tell, has no protections or notification.
D. Linux is completely different - they claim no apps are malicious.

Go figure.
o If you don't believe (or understand) my summary, click on the threads.
--
Each operating system group considers the same problem differently.

Arlen Holder

unread,

Jul 28, 2020, 9:46:05 PM7/28/20

to

UPDATE:

Dateline less than a week ago...

"Laptops running Windows 10 or macOS operate a little differently.
Many apps you install can still access the clipboard whenever they want,
unfortunately, that part is still the same. However, both desktop
operating systems also offer some kind of cloud clipboard feature.

"How-To Geek offers a great rundown on clipboard access"
o *PSA: All Apps Can Read Your iPhone and Android Clipboard*
<https://www.howtogeek.com/680147/psa-all-apps-can-read-your-iphone-and-android-clipboard/>

"Apple offers a cloud clipboard feature that enables users to copy and
paste across iOS, iPadOS and Mac devices. Apps snooping on the clipboard
can get data from your laptop or tablet too."

"When iOS 14 officially arrives later this year, it will allow apps to
query the clipboard without seeing its data. ... [Browser] apps can use
the new API to ask iOS what's in the clipboard. iOS can then tell the
browser whether it has a URL, text, a picture, or something else.
Plus, the software can do this without revealing what's in the
clipboard. If iOS says a URL is available, the browser can paste it from
the clipboard, triggering the notification and letting the user know
what transpired. If there isn't a URL, the app doesn't access the
clipboard data, the user's information remains secure and iOS doesn't
notify the user."

This article from last week outlines a nice history of how iOS progressed
to capture scores of malware apps (many from well known respected authors)
which accessed the users' clipboard when they had no business doing so:

o *Copy, paste catastrophe: how Apple's iOS 14 disrupted clipboard espionage*
<https://mobilesyrup.com/2020/07/23/ios-14-clipboard-apps-snooping/>

"In February 2020, German-based developer Tommy Mysk and Toronto-based
developer Talal Haj Bakry shared a blog post explaining how iOS and
iPadOS apps have unrestricted access to the clipboard. The duo
highlighted how this access could lead to security vulnerabilities,
such as exposing users' precise location."

o *Precise Location Information Leaking Through System Pasteboard*
<https://www.mysk.blog/2020/02/24/precise-location-information-leaking-through-system-pasteboard/>

"Mysk submitted the details to Apple in January, but the company told the
developers it didn't see an issue with the vulnerability. However, with
the release of iOS 14 betas to developers and later the public,
it became clear that Apple did see a problem with clipboard access.

o *iOS 14 will notify users when apps access the clipboard*
<https://mobilesyrup.com/2020/06/24/ios-14-new-clipboard-api-notification/>

"Apple's latest mobile operating system ushered in two significant
changes for the clipboard; a notification to tell users when apps
accessed clipboard data and a new API that makes the clipboard more
secure."

"Since late June, people have caught over 50 apps abusing clipboard
access."

o *Security researcher finds 53 more iOS apps reading users' clipboard data*
<https://mobilesyrup.com/2020/06/28/security-researcher-finds-53-more-ios-apps-reading-users-clipboard-data/>
"The apps include Fruit Ninja, the New York Times, PUBG Mobile and Viber"

The article goes on to include Android...

"What about Android users? After reading all this, you may wonder if the
clipboard on your Android phone or Windows PC is safe."

"How-To Geek offers a great rundown on clipboard access"
o *PSA: All Apps Can Read Your iPhone and Android Clipboard*
<https://www.howtogeek.com/680147/psa-all-apps-can-read-your-iphone-and-android-clipboard/>

"Starting with Android 10, apps need permission to access the clipboard
in the background. Still, while restricting background access to the
clipboard is good, it's no more than what iOS 13 does. Hopefully, Google
follows Apple and implements a similar system to iOS 14 on Android."

"Laptops running Windows 10 or macOS operate a little differently.
Many apps you install can still access the clipboard whenever they want,
unfortunately, that part is still the same. However, both desktop
operating systems also offer some kind of cloud clipboard feature.

macOS has Universal Clipboard, which shares copied data across macOS,
iOS and iPadOS. That means anything you copy will pass through Apple's
servers."

"Windows 10 has a Clipboard history setting that saves a record of
everything you copy and paste. You can access this by tapping Windows+V.

Windows 10 will sync your clipboard history across devices as well if
you enable that setting.

The one saving grace here is websites. Web apps can't automatically
access your clipboard. Users have to paste content manually for a
website to access it."

"Apps that access the clipboard without user consent"
o Firefox
o Google Chrome
o Discord
o Fox News
o The New York Times
o Wall Street Journal
o Bejeweled
o Fruit Ninja
o PUBG Mobile
o Viber
o Weibo
o Zoosk
o AccuWeather
o DAZN
o Overstock
o CBC News
o CBS News
o ABC News
o Al Jazeera English
o CNBC
o News Break
o NPR
o Reuters
o ntv Nachrichten
o Russia Today
o Stern Nachrichten
o Huffington Post
o The Economist
o Vice News
o 8 Ball Pool
o Amaze
o ToTalk
o Tok
o Truecaller
o Block Puzzle
o Classic Bejeweled
o Class Bejeweled HD
o Watermarbling
o Total Party Kill

o Tomb of the Mask

o Tomb of the Mask: Color

o FlipTheGun
o Golfmasters
o Letter Soup
o Love Nikki
o My Emma

o Plants vs. Zombies Heroes

o Pooking
o 10% Happier: Meditation
o AliExpress Shopping App
o Bed Bath
o Hotels.com

o 5-0 Radio Police Scanner

o Hotel Tonight
o Pigment

o Recolor Coloring Book to Color

o Sky Ticket
o Microsoft Teams
o Call of Duty Mobile
o Google News
o McDonald's
o Starbucks
o Wendy's
--
Apps that have no business snooping on your clipboard, shouldn't do it.