Creating a custom shell folder visible under 'my computer' just as 'control panel' ?

[R.Wieser]

Hello all,

I'm in the habit of using the %TEMP% folder for - you guessed it - temporary
files. As such I would like to have quick-and-easy access to the folder.

I've got a simple shortcut to the folder in the root of my drive, but was
wondering if I could place it on a bit more central place - but not on the
desktop.

So, I got the idea of using the "system folder" method for it :

https://techforms.blogspot.com/2009/08/create-special-folder-in-windows.html

It works alright, but with one drawback : it only shows in the right pane as
the contents of the "My Computer" folder, not directly below it (as the
"Control panel" entry does).

So, my question is : does someone here have any idea how I could get the
added "Special folder" visible in the left pane (by changing tHe
"Attributes" data perhaps) ? Either as a child of "My Computer", or from
"Desktop" (but without it being present on the actual desktop!)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Paul]

The only thing that comes to mind, as a Lego piece, is "subst".
I don't know if File Explorer will accept a subst letter as a left
pane item or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUBST

Paul

[Zaidy036]

On 12/14/2021 1:49 PM, R.Wieser wrote:

Maybe like in Win 10 add it to Quick Access and then when right Click on
File Explorer in tool bar and it will be a choice

[R.Wieser]

Zaidy036,

> Maybe like in Win 10 add it to Quick Access and then when right Click on
> File Explorer in tool bar and it will be a choice

Thats what I have now, which has a shortcut to the temp folder in the root
of the drive I display by default.

But I would like to give the shortcut (or something similar) a bit more
prominent place, like how "Control panel" or "My Nework Places" are shown in
the left pane.

Yeah, one of those "is it possible" ideas I'm afraid. :-)

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[R.Wieser]

Paul,

> The only thing that comes to mind, as a Lego piece, is "subst".

:-) You're bringing back memories there ...

But indeed, "subst Z: %TEMP%" does make a Z drive appear under the "My
computer" entry in the left pane. Thanks.

Now lets see if I can change that drives name to something like "Temp
folder", and perhaps change its icon too ...

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[JJ]

Just like how new items can be added into "My Computer" shell folder under
its "Namespace" registry subkey, new items can be added into some other
(built in) shell folders. Just search for a subkey named "Namespace" under:

HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer

Some of the shell folders are "Control Panel", "Network Neighborhood",
"Printers and Faxes", "Remote Computer", "User Libraries", etc. Some are
available in newer/older Windows versions only.

Of course, this is only possible because the shell folder handlers
customizable enough and provide a way to add new items. Third party shell
folders are likely not provide any way to add new item at all.

[R.Wieser]

JJ,

> Just search for a subkey named "Namespace" under:
>
> HKLM\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Explorer

Thats actually the last, step #5 in the link I provided. Although I've did
a quick look for other namespaces, for my purpose being a child of either
"My computer" or "Desktop" will do.

The only problem is that the new link I've been able to create is only
visible in the right, "details" pane, not the left, "tree" one. I've
currently got no idea how either "Control Panel" or "My Network Places" are
visible there.

IOW, I've got the basics down, but am stuck on finishing it off. :-|

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

|
| So, I got the idea of using the "system folder" method for it :
|

You might want a Namespace Extension. I'm not certain, but
I have the book VB Shell Programming and that seems to be
what it does. Frankly I'm not curious enough to explore it, but
you can. I have a shortcut to TEMP on my desktop, and I have
a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders on my system.
That's adequate for me.

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> You might want a Namespace Extension. I'm not certain, but
> I have the book VB Shell Programming and that seems to be
> what it does.

Can you tell me te name of the book and possibly its ISBN number too ? It
could not hurt to take a look at it.

> I have a shortcut to TEMP on my desktop

:-) Putting one /there/ isn't hard to do. Though the standard
drag-and-drop method creates a shortcut which opens the targetted folder
with just the right pane open. I had to do some googeling to find out how
to fix that.

> and I have a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders
> on my system.

Although I've got just the standard Windows and DOS "temp" folders, I do
have a number of vbscripts for various tasks.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

| Can you tell me te name of the book and possibly its ISBN number too ?
It
| could not hurt to take a look at it.
|

https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/vb-shell-programming/1565926706/

It's pretty good. I've used it to write property sheets,
browser extensins, BHOs and Explorer Bars. It's one of
those cases where the code isn't so hard but thjere are
very funky details you need to know and interfaces you
need to use.

Unfortunately, a shell extension runs in the Explorer
process, so a 32-bit SE only works on 32-bit Windows.

It looks like you might be able to set up a namespace
extension with just Registry and arcane folder fiddling,
but I'm not sure.

| Although I've got just the standard Windows and DOS "temp" folders, I do
| have a number of vbscripts for various tasks.
|

Microsoft have made an increasing mess of things. Originally
there was one TEMP folder. But just on XP there can be C:\TEMP,
C:\Windows\TEMP, and several [useraname]\LocalSettings\TEMP.
(my username, default, admin, all users, etc) And of course you
can't clean them in Windows if anything is being used. So I wrote
a script to check them all and keep going, ignoring errors, if something
can't be deleted.

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/vb-shell-programming/1565926706/

Thanks. Will take a peek at it soon.

> It's one of those cases where the code isn't so hard but thjere are
> very funky details you need to know and interfaces you need to use.

Yup, encountered a few of those. Takes quite a bit of time (and luck) to
google the specifics.

> It looks like you might be able to set up a namespace extension with
> just Registry and arcane folder fiddling, but I'm not sure.

It would not be the first time I did that. :-)

> So I wrote a script to check them all and keep going, ignoring errors,
> if something can't be deleted.

One of my scripts checks, at shutdown, the "Recent Documents" folder and
clears everything outof it which is either a folder or on removable storage.
Causes that folder to become (a bit more) usable again.

I often use it where what needs to be done becomes too complex and a batch
file just doesn't cut it anymore. I've gone as far as to give those scripts
a ".vbc" extension to get them to automatically run in a console.

Funny that although you can read/write full lines from/to the console there
is nothing like a "get single keypress" method available. So, no easy Yes/No
questions or menu selections.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

| I often use it where what needs to be done becomes too complex and a batch
| file just doesn't cut it anymore. I've gone as far as to give those
scripts
| a ".vbc" extension to get them to automatically run in a console.
|
| Funny that although you can read/write full lines from/to the console
there
| is nothing like a "get single keypress" method available. So, no easy
Yes/No
| questions or menu selections.
|

It's a mystery to me that people keep using console windows.
It's like avoiding modern clotheswashers and then complaining that
their washboard doesn't have a spin cycle.

Even more strange is that avoiding the mouse seems to be making
a comeback. I expect to see millennials down at the local river,
scrubbing on their washboards, in an attempt to "wash authentically". :)

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 at 13:27:45, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

>a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders on my system.

[]
Wow, someone who knows that "myriad" shouldn't be followed by "of"!
Excellent. (Like "comprises"/"comprised".)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Imagine a world with no hypothetical situations...

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 08:15:08, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>

wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
[]

> It's a mystery to me that people keep using console windows.
>It's like avoiding modern clotheswashers and then complaining that
>their washboard doesn't have a spin cycle.
>
> Even more strange is that avoiding the mouse seems to be making
>a comeback. I expect to see millennials down at the local river,
>scrubbing on their washboards, in an attempt to "wash authentically". :)
>
>

You can go too far. Feeling you have to use the mouse for _everything_
is as bad as trying to avoid using it altogether. (When I'm doing
something keyboard-intensive in particular, I don't want to move my hand
away to find the mouse [or touchpad].)

Of course, the development of a third hand would solve the problem (-:

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> It's a mystery to me that people keep using console windows.

Have you ever tried to have a vbscript generate some output and run it in a
GUI ? The result is not something which makes you happy. :-\

And I do like to see how a program, script or not, progresses.

> It's like avoiding modern clotheswashers and then complaining \
> that their washboard doesn't have a spin cycle.

Lol. Even fricking DOS had a command (KeySel?) which you could use to wait
for one or more selectable keys (and have its index returned as the
exitcode). With a timeout no less.

> Even more strange is that avoiding the mouse seems to be making
> a comeback.

Is it ? using a mouse means you have to keep your eyes on the screen. By
using the keyboard you could do it blindfolded.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Frank Slootweg]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 08:15:08, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
> > It's a mystery to me that people keep using console windows.
> >It's like avoiding modern clotheswashers and then complaining that
> >their washboard doesn't have a spin cycle.
> >
> > Even more strange is that avoiding the mouse seems to be making
> >a comeback. I expect to see millennials down at the local river,
> >scrubbing on their washboards, in an attempt to "wash authentically". :)
> >
> You can go too far. Feeling you have to use the mouse for _everything_
> is as bad as trying to avoid using it altogether. (When I'm doing
> something keyboard-intensive in particular, I don't want to move my hand
> away to find the mouse [or touchpad].)

+<very_large_number>

For example when using this medium, I do not use the mouse at all and
can leave my hands on the keyboard the whole time, during 'browsing',
during reading and during composing/posting and all commands are simple
single or double keypresses. OTOH, when using e-mail, there's more
'mousing' and less 'typing'.

[Frank Slootweg]

R.Wieser <add...@not.available> wrote:
[...]

> Funny that although you can read/write full lines from/to the console there
> is nothing like a "get single keypress" method available. So, no easy Yes/No
> questions or menu selections.

Doesn't 'choice' offer what you want/need?

FWIW, I use .bat (and shell) scripts and 'console' (Command Prompt)
windows, but only when Mayayana isn't watching. His misplaced/uninformed
superiority complex is already bad enough as it is.

[Ken Blake]

On 12/16/2021 7:23 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 at 13:27:45, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
> []
>>a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders on my system.
> []
> Wow, someone who knows that "myriad" shouldn't be followed by "of"!
> Excellent. (Like "comprises"/"comprised".)

I think you're the first person I've ever known who doesn't say or
write "...the xxx is comprised of... where he should say of write "the
xxx comprises..."

I remember once sending a draft to my boss (at his request) of a memo I
wrote for him to approve it before I sent it out. The memo included
"comprises." The only change he made was changing "comprises" to
"comprised of." I changed it back.

[Ken Blake]

Exactly the other way around for me.

[Frank Slootweg]

That's probably because you use Thunderbird [1] for this medium
(Usenet/NetNews) and I don't. Do you use Thunderbird for e-mail as well?
If so, why do you use keyboard shortcuts for e-mail, but not for Usenet/
NetNews?

[1] Is - as your headers imply - 'Betterbird' some new name for
Thunderbird?

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 10:04:59, Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com>

wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>On 12/16/2021 7:23 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 at 13:27:45, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>> []
>>>a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders on my system.
>> []
>> Wow, someone who knows that "myriad" shouldn't be followed by "of"!
>> Excellent. (Like "comprises"/"comprised".)
>
>
>
>I think you're the first person I've ever known who doesn't say or
>write "...the xxx is comprised of... where he should say of write "the
>xxx comprises..."

HOORAY! Yes, I don't know why they feel naked without an "of" there. All
I can think of is that they are thinking of "consists". I think
"compris*" have only become common in the last few years. Similarly for
"myriad", or at least its resurgence: I can only think they're thinking
of "multitude". (Come to think of it, myriad doesn't need "a" _before_
it either, though I wouldn't consider it _wrong_.)

>
>I remember once sending a draft to my boss (at his request) of a memo I
>wrote for him to approve it before I sent it out. The memo included
>"comprises." The only change he made was changing "comprises" to
>"comprised of." I changed it back.

I hope you didn't suffer career-wise. I did have a boss who more or less
ordered me to use top-posting, so I did - but only in emails to him (-:.

(You could have given him his "of" by using "consisting of" if he'd
insisted.)

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Her [Valerie Singleton's] main job on /Blue Peter/ was to stop unpredictable
creatres running amok. And that was just John Noakes.
- Alison Pearson, RT 2014/9/6-12

[Ken Blake]

On 12/16/2021 12:03 PM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 at 10:04:59, Ken Blake <K...@invalidinvalid.com>
> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>On 12/16/2021 7:23 AM, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 at 13:27:45, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>
>>> wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):
>>> []
>>>>a VBScript for cleaning up the myriad TEMP folders on my system.
>>> []
>>> Wow, someone who knows that "myriad" shouldn't be followed by "of"!
>>> Excellent. (Like "comprises"/"comprised".)
>>
>>
>>
>>I think you're the first person I've ever known who doesn't say or
>>write "...the xxx is comprised of... where he should say of write "the
>>xxx comprises..."
>
> HOORAY! Yes, I don't know why they feel naked without an "of" there. All
> I can think of is that they are thinking of "consists". I think
> "compris*" have only become common in the last few years. Similarly for
> "myriad", or at least its resurgence: I can only think they're thinking
> of "multitude". (Come to think of it, myriad doesn't need "a" _before_
> it either, though I wouldn't consider it _wrong_.)
>>
>>I remember once sending a draft to my boss (at his request) of a memo I
>>wrote for him to approve it before I sent it out. The memo included
>>"comprises." The only change he made was changing "comprises" to
>>"comprised of." I changed it back.
>
> I hope you didn't suffer career-wise.

No. I hated him, and I hated the company, I soon found another, much
better, job, and resigned a short time later. I didn't work there long.

> I did have a boss who more or less
> ordered me to use top-posting, so I did - but only in emails to him (-:.
>
> (You could have given him his "of" by using "consisting of" if he'd
> insisted.)

Yes, I could have, but I didn't.

[Ken Blake]

Yes, for the last six months or so.

> If so, why do you use keyboard shortcuts for e-mail, but not for Usenet/
> NetNews?

??? I use Autohotkey and use shortcuts for everything.

> [1] Is - as your headers imply - 'Betterbird' some new name for
> Thunderbird?

No. Betterbird is a Thunderbird variant, with a few minor improvements.

[R.Wieser]

Frank,

> Doesn't 'choice' offer what you want/need?

Yup, that was the DOS program I was thinking of. Thanks.

Though I was lamenting that VBScript (or rather : cscript) does not have
anything comparable. Or anything beyond a basic console write and read
function. Not even a "cls".

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available>

| > It's a mystery to me that people keep using console windows.
|
| Have you ever tried to have a vbscript generate some output and run it in
a
| GUI ? The result is not something which makes you happy. :-\
|

Of course. I can show a msgbox. I can write the result to a file.
Or if I want it interactive, I use an HTA. I have about a dozen
of those sitting on my desktop. I figure that if I have to type
something like a path more than once then it's worth automating it.

| Is it ? using a mouse means you have to keep your eyes on the screen.
By
| using the keyboard you could do it blindfolded.
|

Ah. So you worked as a secretary before computers?
Personally I don't know the keyboard that well. And I
don't have trouble looking at the screen. It's right in front
of me, after all. In fact, it seems that whenever I look
away something goes wrong. For instance, I thought I
was typing in search terms but when I finally look up I
see that the search box doesn't have the focus.

[Mayayana]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote

| Wow, someone who knows that "myriad" shouldn't be followed by "of"!
| Excellent. (Like "comprises"/"comprised".)

It's always a special thrill to be complimented on
my use of English by a Brit. :)

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> I want it interactive, I use an HTA

:-) I wasn't even /hinting/ at an interactive GUI, but just being able to
do simple stuff like a Yes/No (or alike) question (MsgBox in VBS).

As for an HTA ? If I want to spend time at create an actual GUI I can as
well write a program. Way more flexible and not an god-awfull mess of GUI
elements mixed with code.

> Personally I don't know the keyboard that well. And I
> don't have trouble looking at the screen.

Not everyone is the same as you are I'm afraid ...

> For instance, I thought I was typing in search terms but when
> I finally look up I see that the search box doesn't have the focus.

And what happens when you keep your eyes on the screen and not the keyboard
? What is your actual-character-to backspace ratio than ? :-p

In my case I've got enough muscle-memory to guide my two index fingers to
the vincinity of the intended key, but must use eyeballing to hit it right
(and not some neighbouring keys too). And that also answers your
"secretary" remark.

But yes, that happens to me too. *Even though* I hit the hotkey-combo for
the searchbox it for some reason sometimes refuses to come up (often because
it gobbles up the hotkey keystroke because of being in a "press any key to
continue" state), or when its already up refuses to give focus to the input
field.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

| :-) I wasn't even /hinting/ at an interactive GUI, but just being able to
| do simple stuff like a Yes/No (or alike) question (MsgBox in VBS).
|

And that's why they invented the WSH. It's understandable
that you're used to DOS and like to stick with what's familiar,
but WSH, now more than 20 years old, was basically updating DOS
for the graphical OS.

But then they started going backward again with PowerShell.
Why? Because they're trying to make Windows servers attractive
to Linux console window fanatics, so they invented a clunky,
command-line system of applets, like the Linux shells use. It's
not because PS was the most sensible design.

| As for an HTA ? If I want to spend time at create an actual GUI I can as
| well write a program. Way more flexible and not an god-awfull mess of GUI
| elements mixed with code.
|

An HTA is a GUI program. It's just simpler than compiled code,
and powered by script, for those situations where you need to keep
the script alive and/or need interaction. It's not for everyone,
especially if you don't do web design, but I use them because
they're fun and simple to write. For example, on my desktop I have
an email database, a youtube-dl frontend, a javascript de-obfuscator,
an HTML reader that allows me to make edits to the webpage
as I read, an image viewer for folders, and even a Win7 SDK
help viewer. All HTAs. Plus several others. I've written more complicated
HTAs. A COM object viewer. An image editor using WIA. An
MSI file unpacker. Writing those as software is far more complicated
and often unnecessary.

So HTAs fill a niche. And the ability to use COM objects makes
them almost as flexible as compiled software, except where speed is
needed. To my mind, IE and COM were both brilliant inventions.
I would never let IE online, but for HTAs it's a lot of fun and
extremely adaptable.

But I think a lot of people agree with you. Many programmers are
math people and not very visual/design oriented. They don't like
GUIs. Many don't even feel much affinity with language. Thus,
Linux: Lots of console windows and no docs.

[Ken Blake]

I see your smiley, but perhaps you really feel that way.

I don't feel that way. British English is somewhat different from
American English, but as far as I'm concerned, neither is better than
the other.

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> And that's why they invented the WSH.

I'm afraid you're fully missing the point there. CSH /could/ rather easily
have had something similar, but it hasn't.

> It's understandable that you're used to DOS and like to stick with
> what's familiar,

You should know better than that. I remember you responding to a number of
my Win32 related questions (in comp.os.ms-windows.programmer.win32). And
yes, most of those related to GUI programs.

> An HTA is a GUI program. It's just simpler than compiled code,
> and powered by script, for those situations where you need to keep
> the script alive and/or need interaction.

Pardon my crudeness, but why are you explaining (mansplaining?) that to me ?
I thought I'd already indicated that I know what it is - and why I do not
really like it.

> But I think a lot of people agree with you. Many programmers are
> math people and not very visual/design oriented.

I'm afraid I've said nothing in that regard to agree with, and its just how
you look at me. And as indicated in the above, I don't think you've done me
right.

Also, as I think you have still a lot to offer me in regard to programming
advice (we might not always agree with each other, but even that has its
worth) I'm not willing to continue this line of conversation.

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[Mayayana]

"Ken Blake" <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote

| > It's always a special thrill to be complimented on
| > my use of English by a Brit. :)
|
|
| I see your smiley, but perhaps you really feel that way.
|
| I don't feel that way. British English is somewhat different from
| American English, but as far as I'm concerned, neither is better than
| the other.
|

It was meant as a joke of sorts. I wasn't thinking of
differences. I was thinking of the way that Brits take
pride in their language and often treat it as an art form.
For us it's the language we speak. For them it's their
heritage.

Interestingly, last week I watched "Venus", with Peter
O'Toole, Vanessa Redgrave, and a young actress with a
working class accent. It was an interesting juxtaposition.
Peter O'Toole spoke so articulately that it was a pleasure
to listen to anything he said. Inflection, timing.... his was
a perfect presentation. The young woman was portrayed
with one of the worst British accents. Cockney, maybe?
Sloppy, blurting, and full of mistakes. We have similar
accents in the US, but truly artful speech in the US
is rare. Maybe Gore Vidal? I can't think of anyone else
offhand who I just look forward to them opening their
mouth. It requires emotional sensitivity as well as intellect.

[Mayayana]

"R.Wieser" <add...@not.available> wrote

| Also, as I think you have still a lot to offer me in regard to programming
| advice (we might not always agree with each other, but even that has its
| worth) I'm not willing to continue this line of conversation.
|

Not to worry. If I argue with you too much, Carlos
and Frank might get jealous. :)

[Frank Slootweg]

Nah, we're just enjoying the show and passing the popcorn.

[R.Wieser]

Mayayana,

> Not to worry. If I argue with you too much, Carlos
> and Frank might get jealous. :)

Carlos E.R. ? I recently had a few "conversations" with him myself.

Not really a likable fellow. Has no problem with making up stuff and from
it claiming "you're doing it wrong" as well as rejecting anything that
doesn't fit his narrative.

Ofcourse, once you see thru his trick of agreeing with other peoples
solutions as if he already knew them it becomes kind of funny.

Now I think of it, he reminds me a bit of Dilberts pointy-haired boss :

https://dilbert.com/

Regards,
Rudy Wieser

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 18:59:01, Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid>

wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

LOL for over a minute, and still chuckling ... thanks!

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Correct me if I'm wrong ... everybody else does.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 at 13:25:54, Mayayana <maya...@invalid.nospam>

wrote (my responses usually follow points raised):

>"Ken Blake" <K...@invalidinvalid.com> wrote
>
>| > It's always a special thrill to be complimented on
>| > my use of English by a Brit. :)
>|
>|
>| I see your smiley, but perhaps you really feel that way.
>|
>| I don't feel that way. British English is somewhat different from
>| American English, but as far as I'm concerned, neither is better than
>| the other.
>|

They both have their irritating aspects! In this case (that "myriad"
shouldn't take "of" [any more than "comprises"/"comprised" do]), I think
both are the same.

>
> It was meant as a joke of sorts. I wasn't thinking of
>differences. I was thinking of the way that Brits take
>pride in their language and often treat it as an art form.
>For us it's the language we speak. For them it's their
>heritage.

That hay have been the case once, and of course some of us still feel it
matters, but you wouldn't need to spend long here to find that a large
proportion of Brits are good at murdering it! And I've found plenty of
USians who _are_ concerned. Probably a similar (small) proportion both
sides, though what they're concerned about is subtly different.

>
> Interestingly, last week I watched "Venus", with Peter
>O'Toole, Vanessa Redgrave, and a young actress with a
>working class accent. It was an interesting juxtaposition.
>Peter O'Toole spoke so articulately that it was a pleasure
>to listen to anything he said. Inflection, timing.... his was
>a perfect presentation.

(I feel the same about Dame Julie.)

> The young woman was portrayed
>with one of the worst British accents. Cockney, maybe?

Could well have been. I'm far from keen on it, but you're not supposed
to knock it - its supposed to be "lovable". (-: [I haven't seen that
film.]

>Sloppy, blurting, and full of mistakes. We have similar
>accents in the US, but truly artful speech in the US
>is rare. Maybe Gore Vidal? I can't think of anyone else
>offhand who I just look forward to them opening their
>mouth. It requires emotional sensitivity as well as intellect.
>

I'm not sufficiently familiar with enough to name one whose speech I
enjoy listening to, though know several authors whose _writing_ I've
enjoyed and at least two whose _lyrics_ I find extremely skilful use of
language.
>
One aspect of American speech that bugs me far more than it should -
after all, it doesn't _matter_ - is the voiced embedded T, that makes
water sound like warder, writer rider, and so on. Pretty universal from
almost all regions. And it's only when in the middle of a word - t is
pronounced t at the start or end of a word, just not in the middle. And
I'm sure they (you) don't realise they're doing it. I've recently
started to wonder - out of fairness - if there's some similar
pronunciation most Brits do that we seem not to know we're doing but
that grates on US ears.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

[Mayayana]

"J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote

| They both have their irritating aspects! In this case (that "myriad"
| shouldn't take "of" [any more than "comprises"/"comprised" do]), I think
| both are the same.

I find a lot of what irritates me is in the attitude or
style. I especially dislike "ask" as a noun. It's a request.
So why "ask"? The only reason I can think of is that
maybe lazy-ass texters were trying to save 4 letters.

Another is y'all. That's a regional expression from the
South. A contraction of "you all". Fine if you happen to
be going to a hoedown on the Bayou. But suddenly it seems
to be a signal that the speaker appreciates ethnic flavor...
Even if Southern pride is the closest they can get to
ethnic.

|
| (I feel the same about Dame Julie.)
|

Dame Julie? Do you perhaps mean Judy Dench? You
expect us colonists to know all the royalty, what? We
know Princess First Class Meghan, because she's the
US ambassador of New Age Frippery and Nouveau Riche.
(Having inherited the title from Lady Oprah.) We also
know Harry, because he's her too-public lap dog. Aside
from that? I do seem to remember a pleasant woman
named Kate, who's apparently famous for wearing a
large variety of tasteful get-ups, as we say in the
Colonies. (Perhaps she's the Duchess of Millinery?)

Personally I like Charles and I don't like the way
you Brits disrespect him. He's consistently decent,
responsible, and seems to genuinely devote himself to
the people. Yet the media are always looking for a
chance to make him look silly.

| One aspect of American speech that bugs me far more than it should -
| after all, it doesn't _matter_ - is the voiced embedded T, that makes
| water sound like warder, writer rider, and so on. Pretty universal from
| almost all regions. And it's only when in the middle of a word - t is
| pronounced t at the start or end of a word, just not in the middle. And
| I'm sure they (you) don't realise they're doing it.

Is that one of those British passive aggressive moves,
accusing us of doing it deliberately? :)

It's certainly common. I speak that way. I feel like I'd
need to make a full stop if I want to pronounce a T like
that. Who's got time?

There's another one I've noticed that seems new.
For some reason it bugs me. "Student". I say something
like "STEW-nt". Many young people now say "STEW-DEH".

There's also a breathy, skipped T at the end that's typical of
both Irish and New England. I never noticed that I did that until
I heard Meryl Streep's accent in the movie Doubt, which she
pronounced with a very soft T, partially touching the tongue to
the middle of the hard palate and pushing air past it, rather
than snapping the tongue near the front of the hard palate.

So, yes, I'm guilty. I don't really do Ts except in words like
"table". But I do enjoy the British art of exaggerated Ts to
produce a kind of irritably emphatic tone. It's hard to speak
so forcefully in American English. (Yet if you watch old movies
from the 30s and 40s, many of the actors had semi-aristocratic
New England accents that are quite pleasant and sort of
half British. Katherine Hepburn was a bit like that. But maybe
that was more theatrical style than accent. I don't know.)

| I've recently
| started to wonder - out of fairness - if there's some similar
| pronunciation most Brits do that we seem not to know we're doing but
| that grates on US ears.

Not in the formal accent. At least not to me. I enjoy the
care of articulation. Though I think you might come up
with some insults other than "wanker". That's badly overused.
Maybe something like "goddamn T-skipping colonist" would be
a nice change of pace. Aside from that, probably only the
excessive formality needs work. When insults are made passive
aggressively, that's not classy. It's just sleaze. I don't know
where Brits got the idea that it's classy to insult another while
trying to fool them into not noticing. It's barmy, what? In
the US we say, "Hey, shit-for-brains, you're out to lunch!"
A Brit would likely say, "Ah, well, you apparently know more
about it than I do."

[Ken Blake]

On 12/19/2021 7:29 AM, Mayayana wrote:
> "J. P. Gilliver (John)" <G6...@255soft.uk> wrote
>
> | They both have their irritating aspects! In this case (that "myriad"
> | shouldn't take "of" [any more than "comprises"/"comprised" do]), I think
> | both are the same.
>
> I find a lot of what irritates me is in the attitude or
> style. I especially dislike "ask" as a noun. It's a request.
> So why "ask"? The only reason I can think of is that
> maybe lazy-ass texters were trying to save 4 letters.

Or maybe lazy-ask testers.

> Another is y'all. That's a regional expression from the
> South. A contraction of "you all". Fine if you happen to
> be going to a hoedown on the Bayou. But suddenly it seems
> to be a signal that the speaker appreciates ethnic flavor...
> Even if Southern pride is the closest they can get to
> ethnic.

Many languages have separate forms for second person singular and second
person plural. English used to ("thou" and "you"), but these day the
plural form ("you") is now almost always used for both singular and
plural in an effort to be polite.

Many people find the absence of separate forms troubling, so they use
"you" for the singular and some new form for the plural. What they use
for the plural varies for place to place, but "y'all," "you all" and
"youse" are all fairly common in some locations. If they say "you" to a
group of people, they fear that someone may feel left out, so they use
one of these new plural forms.

[Sam Hill]

On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 08:01:30 -0700, Ken Blake wrote:

> Many people find the absence of separate forms troubling, so they use
> "you" for the singular and some new form for the plural. What they use
> for the plural varies for place to place, but "y'all," "you all" and
> "youse" are all fairly common in some locations. If they say "you" to a
> group of people, they fear that someone may feel left out, so they use
> one of these new plural forms.

My late uncle from Big Spring, Texas once told me that "y'all" was
singular and "all y'all" was plural. After listening to his friends and
neighbors, I believe him.