Class Action
Jack Gostl
user, but this is too much. I was quite happy with OE and hotmail and now
I've been pushed into this mess.
I've spent the better part of the last 36 hours trying to untangle this
mess. WML just suddenly stopped working. It would loop. It would tie my PC
into knots. Enough. I did an uninstall and reinstall and things are a bit
smoother, but this is still an awful product.
Has it occurred to anyone that those of us who have payed for use of hotmail
had an expectation that it would continue to work with OE as it was? Does
the term "class action" pique anyone's interest?
Earle Horton
news:F18395C9-FB23-4F69...@microsoft.com...
damages until they actually do that. If you have paid Hotmail, why don't
you just use pop3 and continue to use OE, or use the excellent upgraded web
client? That's what the judge is going to say.
Cheers,
Earle
Jack Gostl
>> Has it occurred to anyone that those of us who have payed for use of
>> hotmail had an expectation that it would continue to work with OE as it
>> was? Does the term "class action" pique anyone's interest?
>>
> They haven't cut off OE support yet. You won't be able to demonstrate
> damages until they actually do that. If you have paid Hotmail, why don't
> you just use pop3 and continue to use OE, or use the excellent upgraded
> web client? That's what the judge is going to say.
One of the main reasons I used hotmail was that it didn't keep my folders on
my local PC. This has two advantages. (1) It lets me access them from any PC
(2) It means that I don't have backup issues. For these reaosns, except for
hotmail, I use IMAP.
I don't much care for the web client because I am a heavy email user with
multiple client.
No, I purchased a product, a hotmail subscription, with the expectation that
it would work a certain way for the duration of the subscription. In fact,
recently Microsoft announced that the only way to use OE with hotmail, was
to pay for it. I will be quite happy if Microsoft refunds the remainder of
my subscription. If faced with refunding subscriptions for a few million
people they might bend a bit.
...winston
any email client.
What you do receive for that exorbitant fee is a doubling of the mail box size(10Gb vs 5 for free), no ads from other companies,
larger file attachments 20Mb per email, and no expiration due to account inactivity.
http://get.live.com/1166188034?workarea=1
One additional feature without a cost increase was added in Sept 2007 but also not exclusive to any email client---Pop3 access.
The decision to delay the deprecation of WebDAV access was announced on May 5th. Even if WebDav access had been deprecated in June
2008, Pop3 access to a Hotmail Plus account was not impacted.
For information on the extent of the $20 annual renewable contract see:
http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us
cf. Item 19 through 22
Class action based on an expectation without an expressed or implied commitment may be nothing more than a pipe dream.
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"Jack Gostl" <nom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:F18395C9-FB23-4F69...@microsoft.com...
Jack Gostl
>> that
>> it would work a certain way for the duration of the subscription. In
>> fact,
>> recently Microsoft announced that the only way to use OE with hotmail,
>> was
>> to pay for it. I will be quite happy if Microsoft refunds the remainder
>> of
>> my subscription. If faced with refunding subscriptions for a few million
>> people they might bend a bit.
>
> cutoff date for turning off WebDAV support past June 30, 2008. The
> extension
> was "indefinite".
>
> Since you are willing to pay for email service, I'd recommend Fastmail.
> For
> a fee you get SMTP access, as well as IMAP access (free accounts are IMAP
> only, no SMTP).
>
> http://fastmail.fm/
>
> I'd suggest getting the account, using MSOE to move your email from the
> Windows Live Hotmail folders to the Fastmail IMAP folders; then, when you
> are satisfied that all is working as desired, pursuing a refund from
> Windows
> Live for the unused portion of the subscription. Probably a lot cheaper,
> and
> easier, than a lawsuit.
Except that I'm getting annoyed. Hotmail plus OE worked fine except for
minor problems. Now, this program, WLM, regularly turns my PC into chopped
liver. It locks up. It runs slow. I've had to do more reboots in the two
weeks since I installed it than I did in the previous six months. On
Thursday, WLM went completely nuts. After hours of trial and error, I had to
uninstall and reinstall it, only to discover that the uninstall leaves
things behind.
Plus... even when it works, it has some astoundingly user unfriendly
features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).
I'll tell you what I'm thinking of doing. I'm considering writing a short
letter to the MS legal department, telling them that I paid for two hotmail
accounts specifically because they told me that I needed to pay to use
hotmail with OE. They are failing to deliver services that they paid for.
The upgrade path they have mandated requires an upgrade in my hardware,
involves a time consuming conversion and even then forces me to use a
product with tons of defects.
If they get a couple of thousand letters like that, it will properly adjust
their perspective.
Unless magic happens, they have lost me for good. But it takes time to
migrate under the best of circumstances, not to mention that the hotmail
addresses are out there all over the place.
BTW - one thing is for sure about WLM. Since I started posting here, my junk
mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its too
late.)
Jack Gostl
> subscription for that $20/yr fee will work indefinitely with any email
> client.
Actually, they stated quite clearly that the $20/year was necessary to work
with OE.
> What you do receive for that exorbitant fee is a doubling of the mail box
> size(10Gb vs 5 for free), no ads from other companies,
Hmmm.... lets see. I can get a 100gb drive for $200. So 10gb... yes... you
are right. 10gb is worth about $20.
> larger file attachments 20Mb per email, and no expiration due to account
> inactivity.
I should hope they don't expire the account. It was paid for. Suppose you
pay for a year of phone service, and you don't use the phone for 90 days.
Wouldn't you get upset if the phone company shut it down due to inactivity?
> One additional feature without a cost increase was added in Sept 2007 but
> also not exclusive to any email client---Pop3 access.
That's nice if you need pop3. Which I don't.
>
> The decision to delay the deprecation of WebDAV access was announced on
> May 5th. Even if WebDav access had been deprecated in June 2008, Pop3
> access to a Hotmail Plus account was not impacted.
See above
> For information on the extent of the $20 annual renewable contract see:
> http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us
> cf. Item 19 through 22
I don't care what it says NOW. I care about what it said in the email I
received about a year ago, which said "pay $20 if you want to use OE with
hotmail".
>
> Class action based on an expectation without an expressed or implied
> commitment may be
> nothing more than a pipe dream.
That email seemed pretty "expressed". But forget the class action.
Anyone who paid $20 and uses OE should just go to
https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ComplaintForm.aspx
and file an online complaint with the State of Washington Attorney General.
>
Jack Gostl
Actually, now that I think of it, try this URL
https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ComplaintForm.aspx
You can file a complaint with the State of Washington Attorney General
online.
...winston
Inline...
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"Jack Gostl" <nom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:uRWYGCus...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> Actually, they stated quite clearly that the $20/year was necessary to work with OE.
Irrelevant, that was your choice to pay. You agreed at that time to changes in the contract.
>> What you do receive for that exorbitant fee is a doubling of the mail box size(10Gb vs 5 for free), no ads from other companies,
> I should hope they don't expire the account. It was paid for. Suppose you pay for a year of phone service, and you don't use the
> phone for 90 days. Wouldn't you get upset if the phone company shut it down due to inactivity?
That comparison can only be made if your phone company states lack of use restricts/discontinues service.
I highly doubt your phone company web site or request for your 'rights in written form' includes any verbiage on usage expiration
beyond lack of payment.
>
> That's nice if you need pop3. Which I don't.
You got it whether you need it or not. No different than the seal added at no cost to a bottle of Tylenol.
>> For information on the extent of the $20 annual renewable contract see:
>> http://help.live.com/help.aspx?project=tou&mkt=en-us
>> cf. Item 19 through 22
>
> I don't care what it says NOW. I care about what it said in the email I received about a year ago, which said "pay $20 if you
> want to use OE with hotmail".
Irrelevant, that was your choice to pony up that $20 and each and everytime the notice for renewal arrives to charge your credit
card.. You agreed at that time to changes. The contract now is what applies.
Class action or not, expectation beyond contractual agreement, remains a pipe dream. Filing complaints based on your opinions
though would be within your prerogative/exclusive rights as a consumer.
Good luck on your quest.
Jack Gostl
> Class action or not, expectation beyond contractual agreement, remains a
> pipe dream. Filing complaints based on your opinions
> though would be within your prerogative/exclusive rights as a consumer.
>
> Good luck on your quest.
Aha... do I detect the attitude of an attorney? If each person who has this
problem goes to the State of Washington AG site AND to the site of their
local regulatory agency, do you really think the wording of those paragraphs
will stand up amidst that clamor? Not only will some exec run for cover
after the two hundreth call, but I would be surprised if those terms stand
up in every state and in every jurisdiction.
Good luck to you too sir.
Earle Horton
If you act quickly you should be able to get a copy of Outlook 2003 for a
reasonable price. The newer version Outlook 2007 probably uses more memory
but it might work on your system too. You can access your Hotmail accounts
using the Outlook Connector, pop3 or the HTTP protocol used by Outlook
Express as long as it continues to be supported. The Outlook Connector can
be used with free Hotmail accounts. It can import mail from Outlook Express
and Windows Live Mail can export mail to Outlook. If you shop around you
will probably find a copy of one or the other version of Outlook for about
$50.00. The Outlook Connector is free for download from the Microsoft
Office download site. Another plus is the availability of spell and grammar
checking in thirty languages.
I am not saying that Outlook is completely without bugs but it is a
commercial released product and much less likely to turn your PC into
chopped liver than Windows Live Mail.
>
> If they get a couple of thousand letters like that, it will properly
> adjust their perspective.
Try http://feedback.live.com. Then you won't have to buy a stamp.
>
> Unless magic happens, they have lost me for good. But it takes time to
> migrate under the best of circumstances, not to mention that the hotmail
> addresses are out there all over the place.
>
> BTW - one thing is for sure about WLM. Since I started posting here, my
> junk mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its
> too late.)
>
You can't fault Microsoft for your own negligent action is exposing your
email address to hundreds of address harvesting bots. Thousands, maybe.
Cheers,
Earle
Jack Gostl
>> features (that I'll be glad to list upon request).
>
Let's start with my favorite. The DEL key will now delete an account. Its a
natural thing to click on the account and then look at the open messages. If
you aren't paying attention, and want to delete the "current message", and
hit the DEL/Enter, the account is gone. This is very frustrating since the
workflow encourages you to click on each account to check your messages. So
far I'ved accidentally deleted five accounts in two weeks on WLM vs ZERO in
four years on OE. That by itself is an indication of a problem.
Next, the cute way it flashes "Receiving Mail" in the lower right hand
corner. On OE, the icon was there full time, and if you clicked on it, you
got the progress window. In WLM, because the icon comes and oges, if you
don't pay attention, you wind up taking WLM offline.
In the progress window OE would tell you message x or y. WLM only tells you
"message x". Small, but annoying.
The actions of F5 have changed. In OE, you put the cursor in the message
list pane, and hit F5 and it would check mail in that account. WLM pops up
this box saying something about downloading folders.
In OE it was easy to determine the order of of accounts in the
accounts/folders windows. You just jiggled the name. In WLM, you have this
move up/move down that drives me nuts.
Now I can't pin this one down yet, but there are times when messages are
downloading but the "receiving mail" doesn't appear. I know because I wonder
why my outgoing mail is going nowhere, so I click on "Send All" and I find
myself looking at a progress bar showing incoming mail being received.
That's all for now, but I haven't had my coffee yet so my IQ is still
increasing slowly. Mostly the thing is do damned slow despite my 3Ghz lotsa
RAM machine. I don't mind bugs. I'm a software developer. I know that bugs
happen and that they get fixed, but the speed thing drives me nuts.
To be fair, the new news interface is an improvement. At least you don't
need three hands to delete a message.
Brian Murphy
OE or WL Mail. I have a free account and have had no issues since the
program was released sending/receiving mail in WL Mail. The software has
worked flawlessly for me. I wonder if there is something on your system
conflicting with WL Mail.
"Jack Gostl" <nom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:uojJy3ts...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
Ildhund
...
>> In the progress window OE would tell you message x or y. WLM only
>> tells you "message x". Small, but annoying.
If you expand the left hand column in the task list pane, it will
tell you how many new messages there are and how big, together with
the total number and size of messages in the folder being
downloaded. It's a pity the progress dialogue box can't be resized
to take advantage of this.
--
Noel
Earle Horton
accounts using DeltaSync. OE has to use DAV HTTP protocol, requires a paid
account. Windows Mail that comes with Vista has to use pop3, requires a
paid account. ...Winston may know of grandfathered account types where this
is not true.
"Refunding remainder of subscription", if he asks nicely, they just might
do it.
Earle
"Brian Murphy" <bria...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:D1BC10DF-F1B4-4CF1...@microsoft.com...
Kevin Young
WLM was designed for MS's proprietary deltasync mail protocol for use
with WLHotmail. You'll find bugs when using the IMAP features such as
when you click on the "x" next to an account folder, unlike other
account types where this simply deletes the messages in the folder, with
an IMAP account it attempts to delete the folder itself. The
proprietary mail protocol also means you must jump through hoops or
revert to POP3 access in order to use WLHotmail with competing email
clients.
I tired of all this and moved my email accounts to Google and now use
Thunderbird with IMAP to connect. Google Apps provides 25 gig of
storage for $50 per year and guarantees server up time to paid
subscribers and has email back-up for 90 days for your domain, etc.
Thunderbird when combined with the Lightning add-in and Google provider
add-in also provides you with Calendar capabilities that sync
automatically with your Google Apps Calendar, a feature we are still
waiting for them to add to WLM.
I would also recommend for the $10 to $20 a year it costs to register
your own domain name as it will allow you to move you email hosting at
any time in the future without the need to change email addresses or
notify others. WLHotmail, Google Apps and Fastmail all allow you to
make use of your own domain rather than one of their own.
...winston
Only free Grandfathered Hotmail accounts(Msn.com or Hotmail.com) can access the servers using the WebDav protocol in OE or OL03/07
or the Outlook Connector(OLC). Grandfathering of an existing account using OE or OL occurred in Oct 2004. New accounts after
that date did not qualify for grandfathering or OE and OL access(though they were capable of using the OLC).
- Http Servers used for Accessing the WebDAV protocol:
MSN.COM http://oe.msn.msnmail.hotmail.com/cgi-bin/hmdata
HOTMAIL.COM http://services.msn.com/svcs/hotmail/httpmail.asp
Subscription based Hotmail Plus accounts(Live.com, Hotmail.com, Msn.com) today can access:
- Pop3 Server using OE, OL, WLM, WM, or other capable third party client
- DeltaSync server using WLM, (OLC, later, if an when WebDav is deprecated)
- The applicable Http server(see above)using OE or OL or the OLC
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"Brian Murphy" <bria...@msn.com> wrote in message news:D1BC10DF-F1B4-4CF1...@microsoft.com...
Jack Gostl
> Thunderbird with IMAP to connect. Google Apps provides 25 gig of storage
> for $50 per year and guarantees server up time to paid subscribers and has
> email back-up for 90 days for your domain, etc. Thunderbird when combined
> with the Lightning add-in and Google provider add-in also provides you
> with Calendar capabilities that sync automatically with your Google Apps
> Calendar, a feature we are still waiting for them to add to WLM.
I've moved my business mail onto our corporate server, but I'd like to keep
my private mail (as well as certain sensitive emails) off that server. I
tried google, and I have found their IMAP unreliable, at least with WML.
Maybe I should do some more testing with OE.
Urbane.Tiger
Is WLM the only thing you've changed since your PC developed the consistency
of chopped liver.
Can you verify that you've not changed or added anything else - especially
any malware protection shields.
My experience is that such things are much more likely to render ones PC
into something resembling blancmange or reinforced concrete than any mail
client.
Apart that have you considered the possibility of a malware infection
itself. It happened to me, one of the symptoms was that WLM started to
exhibit OE like behaviour's, it was bizarre.
re suing MS - it may make you feel better, but MS's life expectancy is
probably longer than your's, so you wont win.
--
TUT
__________________________________
"Jack Gostl" <nom...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:F18395C9-FB23-4F69...@microsoft.com...
Jack Gostl
> Is WLM the only thing you've changed since your PC developed the
> consistency of chopped liver.
>
> Can you verify that you've not changed or added anything else - especially
> any malware protection shields.
The problem started within minutes of installing WLM. I think that's pretty
good verification.
--- snip ----
> re suing MS - it may make you feel better, but MS's life expectancy is
> probably longer than your's, so you wont win.
You all miss the point. The likeley hood of my winning more than $10 is
vanishingly small. But the uproar we can create is not. We have a legitimate
gripe. The fact that its a $10 gripe is a problem unless a large number of
people complain.
Earle Horton
"Jack Gostl" <nom...@hotmail.com> bottom posted in
news:#Tk1jACt...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
pointed out here, I am not sure that the loss of Outlook Express and it's
HTTP protocol constitutes breach of contract. Either WLM or Outlook could
be seen as an improvement, fulfilling whatever implied contractual promise
you are planning to assert and providing more functionality besides. I have
had catastrophic system failures from installing tested commercial software
such as a version of Microsoft Office on the operating system it was
designed to run on, indicating as Norman says something wrong in the base
system installation. I have had to reinstall Windows from scratch and I
wouldn't hold Microsoft liable, although conceivably they could have
designed the operating system and all applications to be 100% bug free, "
Zero Tolerance" for bugs, yeah!
Given that the Outlook Express HTTP protocol has been given a reprieve, well
I don't think your claim is ripe either. I don't believe that you have
legitimate gripe as yet. Maybe revisit the legal avenue when the HTTP
protocol is cut off for good. For now, why don't you use the feedback link?
This is not a place to gripe. This is a volunteer forum, with volunteers
who want to help.
Cheers,
Earle
Jack Gostl
>> pretty
>> good verification.
>
> you installed WLM, wasn't sufficiently stable to allow a successful
> installation of WLM.
Smooth operation without a bump for months. Install WLM, everything goes
screwy. Yes, clearly my PC was unstable.
Jack Gostl
>> junk mail has increased tenfold. (Yes, I just altered my address, but its
>> too late.)
>
> Actually, now that I think of it, try this URL
>
> https://fortress.wa.gov/atg/formhandler/ago/ComplaintForm.aspx
>
> You can file a complaint with the State of Washington Attorney General
> online.
I am pleased to say that filing the complaint online was easy, and the
response came with electrifying speed. I urge anyone who likes OE + hotmail,
and doesn't want to be forced onto WLM to go to the above website and take
similar action.