Print problem with latest Windows Live Update?
Ken
Live to the latest version (Build 14.0.8089.0726) on October 26th. I also
updated the Canon MP620 print drivers to their lastest version which
supports W7 and Vista 64-bit. Now I noticed this morning that e-mails
printed from WL cut off about an inch of stuff in the right margin.
Internet Explorer 8 seems to print OK. I have seen postings on a similar
problem with Hotmail e-mails being printed from WL but my e-mails are coming
from comcast. Help would be appreciated.
Ken
HP822C printer attached to Windows Home Server and it has the same problem
printing e-mails from the new version of Window Live.
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:897BE324-2E7A-49A8...@microsoft.com...
Ken
WL Build 14.0.8064.0206 and it has the same problem so... it is not the
absolute latest release of WL that is causing the problem. Normal e-mails
with just verbage print OK but special stuff like Confirms from Schwab, as
an example, get the right margin cut off. Unfortunately the Confirms are
about the only e-mails that I print! The other change on the Schwab
Confirms is the font that WL(?) uses changed from a large bold font to a
very small font - it used to use the whole page and now it leaves a 1"
margin on the left and a 2.5" margin on the right.
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:897BE324-2E7A-49A8...@microsoft.com...
Bob Lucas
this addition to your thread.
The phenomenon also occurs in Win XP Professional (SP3), when I
try to print a multi-page email from Windows Live Mail
(14.0.8089.0726). (HTML messages only - not plain text). The
first page loses about one inch from the right margin.
Subsequent pages print OK.
And I don't think it has anything to do with the print drivers,
because it makes no difference whether I print to my default
printer (an HP LaserJet 1018) or whether I print to my Lexmark
X1100 printer or to a PDF file (using Acrobat Distiller).
Significantly, it also happens when I print multi-page messages
from Outlook Express 6, so I don't think the problem is caused by
the latest Live update. Outlook Express depends upon the IE
print engine, so I suspect the problem is more likely to be
associated with the recent upgrade to IE8.
I am sure the symptoms did not occur, when I was using Internet
Explorer 6 - and I did not notice them with IE7. However, I
prefer the new features of IE8, so I really don't want to revert
to any previous version of Internet Explorer.
The problem seems to have some relevance to Internet Explorer and
also to Outlook Express, so I have cross-posted to the relevant
newsgroups. I hope someone can suggest a painless solution.
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:897BE324-2E7A-49A8...@microsoft.com...
Bob Lucas
Ken
a few days ago. So maybe MSFT slipped a IE8 change in that is causing the
problem?
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:u6JI7AxV...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
I remember someone posting that something was ignoring
Landscape mode and only printing in Portrait. What happens
if you use Landscape with Legal Extra paper size?
---
Ken
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:epjanW0V...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:71EC9DEC-4740-4D43...@microsoft.com...
> All that did was give me a 5" border on the right side.
But was it printing in Landscape orientation or Portrait?
I'm still trying to visualize the problem. I don't have a real printer.
Oh. Now I see an issue. I "printed" one of Winston's posts using
XPS Document Writer. The lines became formatted with some arbitrary
smaller line size? That actually seems helpful in that case. <eg>
I'll try one of Peter's posts too since his line size is usually unlimited
(e.g. sometimes bigger than 131)... Same thing. The XPS Document
Viewer EP is aware of the orientation but wraps the line within the viewer's
window. Zoom control shows that however that line size was set it is not
dependent on the size of the original window I printed from.
I thought the issue was that text was being truncated on the right.
I got that impression from words like "cut off" being used throughout
this thread. ; }
FWIW my line size is set at 132 but I always end my lines much sooner
and always reformat Format=Flowed when necessary. I have no idea
why the printer routine is using a smaller line size for wrapping the lines
that it needs to process.
Ok. I have found something that may work better, at least with messages
which don't have any attachments. Use Forward as attachment and then
drag the attachment to an open IE window. Then using IE's Print Preview
I can see that Landscape Legal Extra would help long lines fill out more.
They still get wrapped when they are longer than whatever fits within that
"width" but then the (unexpected) "line size" is accordingly larger and thus
could help reasonably longer lines to print as intended. Alternatively using
a smaller page size and smaller zoom setting also appears could work.
Shrink-to-fit doesn't seem to help at all. YMMV.
HTH
Robert
---
>
> "Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message news:epjanW0V...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
...
Bob Lucas
The first page loses approximately one inch from the right hand
side. Text and graphics are truncated.
Subsequent pages print OK.
It makes no difference whatsoever whether I:
a) Print in portrait or landscape
b) Change the page margin settings in Internet Explorer
c) Enable or disable the "shrink to fit" option in Internet
Explorer.
d) Use a different printer (HP LJ1018 or Lexmark 1100) to
print a paper copy or Acrobat Distiller to print to a PDF file
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:#ZUgjy#VKHA...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:OWHBmH$VKHA...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> The problem only occurs with multi-page HTML messages.
That was a good clue. I just tried to "print" an E-mail containing
a spreadsheet which had a huge mailing list. The mailing list
was printed with the widths it should have (e.g. in both Portrait
and Landscape and Letter and Legal Extra). The spreadsheet
was definitely truncated the same way regardless of the printer
setup used.
Unfortunately I haven't found one which goes on to more than one page...
Maybe I can change the page size to force it onto a second page after the mailing list...
>
> The first page loses approximately one inch from the right hand side.
> Text and graphics are truncated.
Rather than describe the symptom in terms of length, see if it's
related to the line size factor I found for the plain text case.
E.g. change the font size and see if that changes the text flow
(which would support your observation) or if it just changes
the width of the page used (which would support mine.)
I agree that I am seeing text truncated but not exactly sure how.
>
> Subsequent pages print OK.
I just thought of something that we both could use...
(but couldn't find it yesterday...) Somewhere in the KB articles
there are articles which use inserted unflowable example
lines of text. (A problem with trying to print any other KB article
or any other document that looks like a table is that the table
elements can be flowed which makes the example harder to
analyse.)
Ok. I think this will do:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/902093
When I use Print Preview of that on IE I have to use Landscape
Legal Extra and 80% to see the whole thing (without horizontal
scrollbars which wouldn't work on a printer <w>).
Sending that to WLMail I would expect those scrollable areas
to be printed in full when I print it (using File, Send, Page by E-mail...)
Oh, great. Outlook takes it and crashes? Back to the drawing board... ; ]
How do I get rid of Outlook? I just tried using XP's Set Program Defaults
to let WLMail be my default Mail app and Outlook is still getting
control of the mailto: filetype? (though ftype mailto implies WLMail
does have it as desired.)...
Well, let's try this. (Don't try this at home. <w>)
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Clients\mail
doesn't have a (Default) value
but
HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Clients\news
does have
(Default) Windows Live Mail
so let's try (fingers crossed) giving the mail client that same value...
Perfect! (not). Now Outlook doesn't crash but I don't get any response
to File, Send, Page by E-mail. ; ]
Must have been some quirk of making changes on the fly.
Now the ...Send, Page... works but (a new print problem
symptom for WLMail?) it won't print the KB article as is.
So, we still need to find a publicly accessible page or file
which can demonstrate the multi-page aspect of your
problem symptom.
HTH
Robert
---
Bob Lucas
newsgroup? If so, I could send you a specimen message (which I
printed as a PDF file).
Unfortunately, I no longer have the original EML file - which
might have provided additional clues.
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:eGykmGXW...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ek66s6XW...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
> Did you use a valid email address, when you posted to this
> newsgroup? If so, I could send you a specimen message (which I
> printed as a PDF file).
Yes but I think I have found a more general test case
which seems to include examples of all the symptoms
you have described so far.
...
>> Ok. I think this will do:
>>
>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/902093
>>
>> When I use Print Preview of that on IE I have to use Landscape
>> Legal Extra and 80% to see the whole thing (without horizontal
>> scrollbars which wouldn't work on a printer <w>).
>>
>> Sending that to WLMail I would expect those scrollable areas
>> to be printed in full when I print it (using File, Send, Page
>> by E-mail...)
...
>> Now the ...Send, Page... works but (a new print problem
>> symptom for WLMail?) it won't print the KB article as is.
>>
>> So, we still need to find a publicly accessible page or file
>> which can demonstrate the multi-page aspect of your
>> problem symptom.
...
I just didn't take my example far enough. All it is after
the File, Send, Page by E-mail is a composition window.
So in order to make it an E-mail which is printable, I just
addressed it to myself and sent it. When I printed that
I could see that, yes indeed the first page was truncated
somehow and the following pages were given a slightly
longer line size, though still not as long as expected.
More significantly IMO the data from them wrapped onto
the next line, even though with Landscape Legal Extra
there would have been loads of space available to avoid
the wrap which clearly would have been undesirable anyway.
It's so bizarre I haven't yet been able to construct any kind
of hypothesis about what might cause these symptoms.
Unfortunately I'm not hopeful that we'll be able to find a
workaround for them.
FYI
Robert
---
Ken
Has anybody anywhere come up with a solution/explanation to this problem?
Can someone tell me how to get the WL group to at least admit that I and a
few others out there have a problem! Are there only a couple of us using
WL?
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:897BE324-2E7A-49A8...@microsoft.com...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:12519A58-D364-4D12...@microsoft.com...
> Has anybody anywhere come up with a solution/explanation to this problem?
It doesn't happen if you print using IE.
So it's pretty easy to work around.
> Can someone tell me how to get the WL group to at least admit that I and a
> few others out there have a problem!
Help, Send Feedback... (Alt-H,d)
> Are there only a couple of us using WL?
Who prints stuff these days? <eg>
Robert
---
Gary VanderMolen
--
Gary VanderMolen, Microsoft MVP (Mail)
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/profile/vandermolen
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:12519A58-D364-4D12...@microsoft.com...
Ken
inbox using IE8? If the problem is not worth fixing I guess I better learn
how to go around it!
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:OH9SSbw...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
...winston
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message news:OH9SSbw...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
Ken
A truly elegant solution.
"Gary VanderMolen" <ga...@NoMail.invalid> wrote in message
news:Oo4fxmxX...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"...winston" <winst...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:eQ0741xX...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
> I don't think the op can read his WLM emails in IE(unless he has a web based account) :)
Use Forward as attachment; then drag the attachment
to an open IE window.
---
>
> --
> ...winston
> ms-mvp mail
>
> "Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message news:OH9SSbw...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>>
>> "Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:12519A58-D364-4D12...@microsoft.com...
>>> Has anybody anywhere come up with a solution/explanation to this problem?
>>
>> It doesn't happen if you print using IE.
>> So it's pretty easy to work around.
...
Bob Lucas
open IE window.
The workaround is not perfect, because the IE window displays the
body of the message only. The To, From, Date and Subject lines
are missing. However, it is better than nothing, so thank you
very much for the suggestion.
I have also found that an alternative workaround, which involves
the use of Windows Live Mail with a Hotmail, MSN or Live email
account. (Incidentally, this workaround doesn't seem to work
with a GMail account).
1. Save the message an EML file on your desktop.
2. Drag and drop the EML file from your desktop to the Hotmail
inbox in your Windows Live Mail folder list.
3. Synchronize your Hotmail mail account in Windows Live Mail
with the server.
4. Then, use a web browser to sign into the Hotmail account.
5. Open the message
6. Upon the assumption that you are using IE7 or IE8, select
print preview and click on the icon that turns off headers and
footers.
7. Print the resulting pages.
And to those people who criticised the OP for wanting to print an
email (save the forests, etc), a totally paperless office is just
as bad as a paperless lavatory! I only print those messages
where a hard copy is essential - probably less than 1% of all
emails.
.
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:er0LCj2X...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:ejG9ng5X...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
> I was not aware that you could drag and drop an EML file into an
> open IE window.
>
> The workaround is not perfect, because the IE window displays the
> body of the message only. The To, From, Date and Subject lines
> are missing.
I keep forgetting about that. Well, then you could print
the headers first and then print the body and join them
together somehow.
> However, it is better than nothing, so thank you
> very much for the suggestion.
>
> I have also found that an alternative workaround, which involves
> the use of Windows Live Mail with a Hotmail, MSN or Live email
> account. (Incidentally, this workaround doesn't seem to work
> with a GMail account).
>
> 1. Save the message an EML file on your desktop.
>
> 2. Drag and drop the EML file from your desktop to the Hotmail
> inbox in your Windows Live Mail folder list.
>
> 3. Synchronize your Hotmail mail account in Windows Live Mail
> with the server.
>
> 4. Then, use a web browser to sign into the Hotmail account.
>
> 5. Open the message
>
> 6. Upon the assumption that you are using IE7 or IE8, select
> print preview and click on the icon that turns off headers and
> footers.
>
> 7. Print the resulting pages.
That sounds like more work. ; )
---
...winston
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message news:er0LCj2X...@TK2MSFTNGP06.phx.gbl...
Bob Lucas
I raised a support ticket and have now received the following
reply from Microsoft Customer Support.
' Hello Bob,
'
' Thank you for patiently waiting for our response.
'
' I have an update from the product team regarding your
' printing issue. The problem that you are experiencing is a
' known issue that does not yet have a resolution. The Windows
' Live Mail product development team is troubleshooting this
' issue. When a resolution is found, Windows Live Mail will be
' updated. In these cases, no additional action is required from
' you.
'
' Thank you for your patience and understanding.
'
' Sincerely,
'
' Abigail
' Windows Live Global Escalations
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:OH9SSbw...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
>
...winston
Thanks for the update.
Looks vaguely familiar to the same message some received after IE7(and IE8) were released.
Have you seen this KB article
- especially cf. Method 3
--
...winston
MS-MVP[Mail]
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:#nBaJYEa...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...
Ron Sommer
--
Ron Sommer
MS MVP-Mail
"...winston" <winst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uyVbmkPa...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
...winston
Here you go :)
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/973479
--
...winston
MS-MVP[Mail]
"Ron Sommer" <rso...@nospam.ktis.net> wrote in message news:OK4g0JQa...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Ken
missing from the right margin on Schwab e-comfirms. That is the only
problem I am aware of at this time - for me anyway.
"...winston" <winst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uyVbmkPa...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
Bob Lucas
slightly different problem - and is specific to the Vista and Win
7 operating systems. I am using Win XP on both computers.
It seems we shall have to wait for a solution, because Microsoft
wheels seem to turn rather slowly. In the meantime, you should
be able to print problem messages OK, if you the email account
has a webmail interface. (Use Internet Explorer or an
alternative browser to sign into the account - and print from
your browser).
I have also discovered a fairly simple workaround for messages
that have been downloaded to WLMail - and are no longer available
via the webmail interface.
This workaround depends upon the use of a Hotmail, MSN or Live
email account in WLMail - configured to synchronize with the HTTP
server at live.com (not the POP3 server).
1. Use a web browser to sign into your Hotmail account.
2. Use the manage folders option to create a special "Print"
folder.
3. Open WLMail and synchronize all mail accounts. This should
add the special "Print" folder to the folder list in WLMail.
4. In WLMail, drag and drop a copy of the problem email into
the Hotmail Print folder.
5. Synchronize the mail accounts again.
6. Return to the webmail interface and open the special
"Print" folder.
7. The message should now be visible via webmail.
8. Open the message and print it from the webmail interface.
Perhaps Ken could try that workaround, next time he needs to
print one of his Schwab e-confirms.
Incidentally, I suggested creation and use of a special Print
folder, because I prefer to retain a dedicated folder for this
purpose.. However, that step is not essential, because WLMail
allows you to drag and drop messages into any existing Hotmail
folder.
"...winston" <winst...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:uNqFueQa...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
"Ken" <krlo...@comcast.net> wrote in message news:89BBE44E-157A-42E0...@microsoft.com...
> I'm don't have any of those symptoms. All I want is the last inch or so
> missing from the right margin on Schwab e-comfirms. That is the only
> problem I am aware of at this time - for me anyway.
Have you tried printing while images are disabled?
Doing that seems to change the flow margins so that
even Legal Extra is used but then you probably wouldn't
even care if it was Landscape because it would flow
for Portrait too.
---
Bob Lucas
the images?
However, I am becoming convinced that this is a caused by a
problem with the "Shrink to fit" option in the IE8 print engine,
as opposed to a fundamental defect in WLMail.
I have just tried to print a series of web pages from IE8.
Although "Shrink to fit" was enabled, at least one inch from the
right margin of each page was missing from the printed version.
However, when I used the Print Preview option with scaling set to
65%, the pages printed OK.
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:uADmkzVa...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Robert Aldwinckle
> But that isn't particularly helpful, if you want to see and print the images?
You're not too picky. First you want the E-mail headers
with the text now you want the images with the text too?
So you could print twice and cut and paste (or tape)
with this option too. <eg>
Robert
---
Bob Lucas
and obtain a perfect print of everything that is visible on
screen. Is that too much to expect?
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:eyf2XEf...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
Ken
"Bob Lucas" <b...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:et$LVoiaK...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...
@discussions.microsoft.com John (of Softgoods)
Windows Live Mail (like OE) uses IE's print engine.
Gary VanderMolen posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2008 5:03 PM
Windows Live Mail (like OE) uses IE's print engine.
In IE, click Page, Text Size, and select the next smaller text size.
When you are finished with printing, you can change that setting
back to where it was.
--
Gary VanderMolen, MS-MVP (Mail)
John (of Softgoods)
Hi Everyone,
I'll try to keep venting to a minimum, but forget my last post (of a few
minutes ago), although in fairness, I'd did point me in the correct direction
- in it a MVP pointed out that Windows Live Mail uses the IE8 (or 7 or etc.)
print engine and that setting the font/view size "carried over" (my
paraphrasing). It did not make a difference to my problem, but it got me to
exploring the "Print Setup" of IE8. Sure enough, there was a suspicious
entry checked called "Enable Shrink-To-Fit" - let me repeat "ENABLE
SHRINK-TO-FIT"
(I'M REPEATING THAT FOR THE SAKE OF THE SEARCH ENGINES:) AND IT WAS CHECKED.
It struck me as very suspicious for some reason.
Well you might think that sounded innocent enough, BUT THAT WAS THE
PROBLEM - at least for me (eg. once I UNCHEKED it - Win Live Mail printed
just fine!!!). I believe it was originally called "enable IE8 to completely
mess up your printing from your EMail program" but then the market folks
decided upon a more benign name...
Gary VanderMolen (MVP)
Thanks for reporting back.
--
Gary VanderMolen, Microsoft MVP (Mail)
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/profile/vandermolen
"John (of Softgoods)" <JohnofS...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:AB6CA56C-BC24-4342...@microsoft.com...
John (of Softgoods)
By the way, just to be clear, as there have been multiple symptoms in
previous postings, this fix - UNCHECKING the "Enable Shrink-To-Fit" check box
- is the fix for the "margins" problem, where Windows Live Mail will (attempt
to) print beyond the margins of the paper and chop off the edge of the right
hand side (you see "PAGE 1 OF" rather than "PAGE 1 OF 3").
Apparently this was checked by default with the new IE8 installation (and
not only shouldn't be, but should be removed IMHO).
Best Regards all, great forum...
...winston
Venting permitted :)
Fyi..for future reference
'Shrink to Fit[StF]' was introduced in IE7 as a default setting(without the ability to configure on the IE7/Page Setup option) thus
an overly aggressive approach for most users.
IE8 'improved upon'(Msft terminology not mine) that feature by adding the option to deselect on the IE8/Page Setup option, though
StF remained the default(i.e. it resorts to being toggled on)
--
...winston
ms-mvp mail
"John (of Softgoods)" <JohnofS...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:AB6CA56C-BC24-4342...@microsoft.com...
Bob Lucas
print properly, I will test your hypothesis.
Incidentally, this problem is not confined to WLMail. It also
affects printing from Outlook Express. Furthermore, IE8
sometimes cuts the right margin from some web pages - but not
every page. I have been unable to identify why some web pages
print OK but others don't.
If IE8 fails to print properly when I use the default "shrink to
fit" setting, I select print preview and change to a customized
setting. Unfortunately, this remedy does not extend to WLMail or
OE6, because these programs do not have a print preview option.
I suspect there is a serious bug with the "Shrink to fit"
function in IE8 - that causes similar printing printing problems
with WLMail and OE6.
"John (of Softgoods)" <JohnofS...@discussions.microsoft.com>
wrote in message
news:AB6CA56C-BC24-4342...@microsoft.com...
Robert Aldwinckle
I thought we had established that that problem only exists
when an image is included. E.g. when I excluded images
the truncation problem resolved into a reformatting "feechur"...
Here is a description of my repro case:
news:uVDl3JpW...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl
Subject: Re: Print problem with latest Windows Live Update?
Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:27:30 -0400
(Essentially do a File, Send Page by E-mail of KB902093
send that and print the received E-mail.)
Have you tried that example?
Hmm... I actually had only tested the no images idea
with one of the other examples from this thread.
Even with everything I could think of to disable images
(e.g. uncheck Show Pictures, set WLMail Security settings
to block images from being downloaded, etc) WLMail *still*
showed the images with the HTML for this example!
In order to test that with no images I had to first do
a File, Save As.. HTML Only. Then do File, Send Page by
E-mail with the saved .htm file. Doing that shows that
there is still truncation with XPS EP. (I suspect XPS EP
doesn't support Continuous Feed... which might be needed
to print some of the lines on a second sheet even though
I told it to print Landscape, Legal Extra. I don't have
a real printer to know whether it would get the extra sheets
for the extra width.) Nevertheless, the results without images
are considerably different than those with images.
BTW please don't relabel the Subject in these threads.
It can make it difficult for people who use their newsreader
in other ways than you may be using yours.
FYI
Robert
---