changing message attribute in Inbox (IMAP4)
Jeremy Hopf
about it.. On an IMAP4 server while in the Inbox if I make any attribute
changes (including delete, flag or mark as read/unread etc.) then if I stay
in that folder when mail is automatically checked (every x minutes) or if I
manually hit the Send and Receive All button it will undo any thing I do..
depending on the changes it will do more than one.. The work around is to
change out of the folder before mail is checked for.. (you can even
return to the Inbox, but you must leave the folder... )
This happens on ALL versions of Outlook Express, with any amount of patches,
on any operating system if you are using an IMAP4 server (probably happens
with IMAP3 as well)
Is there a fix/solution/setting/workaround other than what I already do?
(This may have been addressed in the past, but I check for solutions to this
from time to time and so far I haven't even gotten an intelligent
swer... )
Unfortunately, I believe Microsoft knows about this, and has no intention to
fix this because if IMAP worked seamlessly, there would be less reason for
companies to use an Exchange server.....
Thanks,
-Jeremy
David Guess
"Jeremy Hopf" <Jerem...@Verizon.net> wrote in message
news:#fnl9rlnCHA.2336@TK2MSFTNGP12...
>
> Unfortunately, I believe Microsoft knows about this, and has no intention
> to
> fix this because if IMAP worked seamlessly, there would be less reason for
> companies to use an Exchange server.....
>
Prove it then.
Jeremy Hopf
news:OFQXAcnnCHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP11...
I never said Microsoft was stupid, in-fact they do an excellent job at
selling just about anything (only Microsoft and the government have
succeeded at forcing people to pay for the same-thing over and over again)..
and Brilliant marketing power, but fact of the mater is, I need to get
Outlook Express working with an IMAP4 server.. I have tried several
workstations running various things, and 2 IMAP4 servers (one being a small
personal one, and another being out company e-mail server) and they all have
the very same problem... It can't be that no-one else has run into
this..
~J
David Guess
Well, why didn't you leave out the commentary and just state the problem by
itself? You make an allegation, go out and prove what you believe. If you
can't prove it, don't speak about things you don't know about or can prove,
it's just that simple.
Now, if you want to work on the problem, what areas have you checked? Have
you looked to see if this is a known issue or by design for some odd reason?
"Jeremy Hopf" <Jerem...@Verizon.net> wrote in message
news:OUdWH2nnCHA.1160@TK2MSFTNGP10...
Jeremy Hopf
I am guessing that you must have some association with Microsoft, so I will
just say..
How do you know that I can't prove it? Maybe I am not willing to? Why is
it a bad thing if they know about it and don't plan to release a fix?
I was stating an opinion, and I typically try not to get into arguments
about opinions, since everyone has a unique one which they want to impose on
everyone else..
That being said,
If you do not know the problem off hand, chances are you don't have a
solution... I have thoroughly exhausted many resources determining if it
is "by design"...
As far as I can tell, no combination of options will solve this (unless its
a registry value), but an out of the box install of OE connecting to a IMAP4
server will produce this every time in every case that I tried.. The most
common of which is W2K or NT4 with OE 5.5sp2... default settings except for
adding an account set as IMAP...... So you have a new message in
OE, and you read it, close it, and hit send and receive... poof, it becomes
marked as unread... now lets delete it.. hit send receive, poof...
its bbbaaaaacckkk..... this seems to only occur on the Inbox....
and if you change out of the folder before you check for mail it will
operate normally..
I am guessing that it has to do with how OE saves changes to the inbox .dbx
file.. something like the changes are not written from memory to the file
until you leave the mail-folder...... and since IMAP is 2-way.. (changes
from the server will be made to the local copy and changes you make locally
will be made on the server)... so if it checks the inbox for mail it reads
the file from the server as being non modified and updates the local file...
aborting changes in memory, or applying them before it applies changes from
the server.. I dunno, probably way off base.. This doesn't happen
on Outlook 2000 or Outlook XP
I consider this to be a bug... I have re-produced it hundreds of times..
on at least 20 different machines.. the majority of which are Dell
Latitudes and Optiplexs.........
"David Guess" <ma...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:O1c6Z1onCHA.2228@TK2MSFTNGP12...
David Guess
"Jeremy Hopf" <Jerem...@Verizon.net> wrote in message
> Well,
>
> I am guessing that you must have some association with Microsoft, so I
> will
> just say..
Nope, don't work for them.
> How do you know that I can't prove it? Maybe I am not willing to? Why is
> it a bad thing if they know about it and don't plan to release a fix?
> I was stating an opinion, and I typically try not to get into arguments
> about opinions, since everyone has a unique one which they want to impose
> on
> everyone else..
>
Because I think you open your mouth and stuck in your foot.
Keep reading.
> That being said,
>
> If you do not know the problem off hand, chances are you don't have a
> solution... I have thoroughly exhausted many resources determining if
> it
> is "by design"...
Are you certain about that? Either of those sentences.
> As far as I can tell, no combination of options will solve this (unless
> its
> a registry value), but an out of the box install of OE connecting to a
> IMAP4
> server will produce this every time in every case that I tried.. The
> most
> common of which is W2K or NT4 with OE 5.5sp2... default settings except
> for
> adding an account set as IMAP...... So you have a new message in
> OE, and you read it, close it, and hit send and receive... poof, it
> becomes
> marked as unread... now lets delete it.. hit send receive, poof...
> its bbbaaaaacckkk..... this seems to only occur on the Inbox....
> and if you change out of the folder before you check for mail it will
> operate normally..
>
> I am guessing that it has to do with how OE saves changes to the inbox
> .dbx
> file.. something like the changes are not written from memory to the
> file
> until you leave the mail-folder......
Not really, it's not purging the message, it has to be purged manually.
OE will write to the file but some changes will not take effect until the
connection or OE is closed.
and since IMAP is 2-way.. (changes
> from the server will be made to the local copy and changes you make
> locally
> will be made on the server)... so if it checks the inbox for mail it reads
> the file from the server as being non modified and updates the local
> file...
> aborting changes in memory, or applying them before it applies changes
> from
> the server.. I dunno, probably way off base.. This doesn't happen
> on Outlook 2000 or Outlook XP
>
Different design teams.
> I consider this to be a bug... I have re-produced it hundreds of
> times..
> on at least 20 different machines.. the majority of which are Dell
> Latitudes and Optiplexs.........
>
You right, it is a bug. Even a KB artiicle on it.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;178158
Why it's not fixed to work correctly, who knows. We've been given so many
different answers on some bugs it's too weird. Can't elaborate on that,
some is covered by a NDA.
Have you tried this with an IE\OE6 setup? With the OE Sp1 patch installed?
Jeremy Hopf
know how to purge messages.. That has nothing to do with it..
As far as backing up my claim, if you want me to prove it I will do it
outside of this newsroom...... But, even had I no evidence to back it
up, I mentioned it was my opinion, and thus can be wrong...... That's
the whole point of opinions.. there is no reason for an opinion to be
right..
You know your problem is that you are aware you know more than the average
person, and you assume that everyone here looking for help is below you in
way... Guess what....... there are people who know far more, and still
look for help.....
So cut it out with the attitude, if you want me to prove anything.. I'll do
so via IM, or maybe e-mail... (e-mail is considered a legal document, so
its always good to be careful about what you say... )
I you have any help which is actually helpful I'd be great to follow your
advice, but let me tell you.. I'm no novice..
~J
"David Guess" <ma...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:#bsz8punCHA.408@TK2MSFTNGP09...
PA Bear
<snip>
| I you have any help which is actually helpful I'd be great to follow your
| advice, but let me tell you.. I'm no novice..
Well, how about David's question:
<snip>
| >
| > Have you tried this with an IE\OE6 setup? With the OE Sp1 patch
| installed?
[Nice to have you back, Majik! <G> ]
--
HTH...Please post back to this thread (only),
advising what you tried and what did or didn't work.
~Robear Dyer (aka PA Bear)
MS MVP-Windows (IE/OE)
Posted via news://msnews.microsoft.com
David Guess
"Jeremy Hopf" <Jerem...@Verizon.net> wrote in message
> Speaking of sticking a foot in your mouth... You presume I'm too stupid
> to
> know how to purge messages.. That has nothing to do with it..
>
Well, appently you're too damn stupid to read whats been in the KB forever
and a day.
> As far as backing up my claim, if you want me to prove it I will do it
> outside of this newsroom...... But, even had I no evidence to back it
> up, I mentioned it was my opinion, and thus can be wrong...... That's
> the whole point of opinions.. there is no reason for an opinion to be
> right..
>
Outside the newsroom? Meaning maybe face to face? Oh hell, this coal miner
would love that.
Or in email? That sux, leave it here. I got attitude to spare. Yeah, I love
being an asshole at times. I also love helping a lot more. But I sure hell
ain't gonna start a post with some attitude that you think someone is
covering up crap and whatever. Thats bull and you know it. So, you get off
the attitude, it's something you know nothing of using in your favor.
> You know your problem is that you are aware you know more than the average
> person, and you assume that everyone here looking for help is below you in
> way... Guess what....... there are people who know far more, and still
> look for help.....
>
No, you come off like an ass making claims and such and when forced, you
can't back it up. Maybe you're too damn stupid to remmeber what you wrote
originally. Go back and have someone read it to you that can read.
> So cut it out with the attitude, if you want me to prove anything.. I'll
> do
> so via IM, or maybe e-mail... (e-mail is considered a legal document, so
> its always good to be careful about what you say... )
>
Well, stick the legal issues where the sun don't shine and that ain't
Norway.
Jeez. Pulling the lawyer card. Ok OJ. Have fun.
> I you have any help which is actually helpful I'd be great to follow your
> advice, but let me tell you.. I'm no novice..
>
Well, you've got a helluva chip on your shoulder, expressing a lot of
attitude where none was needed to begin with and you know what? What you get
is what you deserve. If you had used some common sense and expressed the
problem and the problem only, a lot of crap wouldn't happen to you. You
expressed yourself one time and someone told you to back up your statements
and you can't. If you can't, don't bitch and whine.
I also asked a simple question that I guess was too simple for you.
Good luck.
David Guess
"PA Bear" <PAB...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OBsgz2znCHA.1612@TK2MSFTNGP10...
[Nice to have you back, Majik! <G> ]
Always. :-)
You can always tell when I've been busy, I disappear from the newsgroups for
a bit. Now maybe I can get back to the programming as well, got some ideas
I want to implement in the backup program and have a request or two from
Steve I better get crackin' on. Plus my hardware beta I'm on is about to
end.
Jeremy Hopf
I am sure I stated that in a previous posting.. I have tried every
version with every patch..... Infact the machine I write to you on is my
home PC which I have OE 6 sp1 and even some other minor patches (recommended
by windowsupdate)...... I have had this problem personally for quite
some time.. as far back as OE 4, but at my company we have always run
Netscape (soon to change)... I always ran OE and just lived with the
problems...
I understand that you are trying to help me, and that you want me to be
specific, (I provide technical support for a living) but have you ever
actually run OE with an IMAP server in production? Do you understand
what I am having trouble with? Have you tested to see if it does the same
thing?
Does ANYONE run OE with IMAP4 and not have the problem I am having?
Thanks,
-Jeremy
"PA Bear" <PAB...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:OBsgz2znCHA.1612@TK2MSFTNGP10...
Chris Barnes
> I am sure I stated that in a previous posting.. I have tried
> every version with every patch..... Infact the machine I write to
> you on is my home PC which I have OE 6 sp1 and even some other minor
> patches (recommended by windowsupdate)...... I have had this
> problem personally for quite some time.. as far back as OE 4, but
> at my company we have always run Netscape (soon to change)... I
> always ran OE and just lived with the problems...
>
> I understand that you are trying to help me, and that you want me to
> be specific, (I provide technical support for a living) but have you
> ever actually run OE with an IMAP server in production? Do you
> understand what I am having trouble with? Have you tested to see
> if it does the same thing?
>
> Does ANYONE run OE with IMAP4 and not have the problem I am having?
I think you were too busy bashing MS that you missed the answer to your
question. Re-read the past messages for the KB article.
PS1: I do run OE using IMAP. I have experianced the issue you mention,
but it's been a long, long time.
PS2: You claim you work computer support for a living. How much help do
you give people who call you and start out by bashing the product? Now
imagine how much help that would be if you were not paid, instead doing
it as a volanteer. THAT is why you haven't gotten direct answers to
your question. (hint: I worked support for 10 years too).
--
+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +
Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
ch...@txbarnes.com Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
PA Bear
| I am sure I stated that in a previous posting.. I have tried every
| version with every patch..... Infact the machine I write to you on is my
| home PC which I have OE 6 sp1 and even some other minor patches (recommended
| by windowsupdate)...... I have had this problem personally for quite
| some time.. as far back as OE 4, but at my company we have always run
| Netscape (soon to change)... I always ran OE and just lived with the
| problems...
|
| I understand that you are trying to help me, and that you want me to be
| specific, (I provide technical support for a living) but have you ever
| actually run OE with an IMAP server in production? Do you understand
| what I am having trouble with? Have you tested to see if it does the same
| thing?
|
| Does ANYONE run OE with IMAP4 and not have the problem I am having?
If there is, they're probably lurking in this newsgroup. FWIW a search of the archives of all OE newsgroup, going back several years, shows not one post similar to your problem (in English, at least): http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=IMAP4&as_ugroup=microsoft.public.*outlookexpress&num=100&as_scoring=d&hl=en This leads one to wonder what unique circumstances/configurations all of your users share?
BTW you're missing the Cumulative Update for OE6-SP1: http://support.microsoft.com/?id=kb;en-us;Q331923
Jeremy Hopf
that, and no that is not my problem..
If not, can you please point me in the right direction?
Okay.. again, here is my problem.. nothing to do with deleting..
step 1, goto inbox (on IMAP server)
step 2, take a message marked as read, right click, select "Mark as Unread"
step 3, click on "Send and Receive All" button...
step 4, check to see if message is still marked unread...
Again, I know how IMAP works with marking messages for deletion, and how to
purge them..
in every scenario I have tried the message will become marked as read.......
and the same thing happens if I mark a message as deleted and hit send and
receive all... I have all patches I can find that have any relationship to
this.. OE 6 Sp1 with rollup and several other minor patches..
When it comes to someone bashing a product, I usually agree, and tell them
why we can't change... In the case I disagree then I defend the product, or
tell them tough luck..
One mans bashing is another's honesty. You can't tell me you believe
Microsoft is above playing dirty... In the corporate realm, anything you
can get away with is considered fair...... and anytime the positives
outweigh the negatives its a good thing (with no consideration for
morals)....... and most importantly, if no-one knows about it, then it
never happened..
Do you really think that I was bashing by accusing Microsoft of making a
less than ideal decision? I believe that other guy took personal offense
to it for some reason.. Maybe he doesn't work there, but he probably did
in the past....
Anyways,
Thanks,
-Jeremy
"Chris Barnes" <chris-...@tamu.edu> wrote in message
news:uXySaO9nCHA.2312@TK2MSFTNGP12...
Jeremy Hopf
your users share?
Well, I have tried to IMAP servers.. one I have to live with no matter
what... the other I can change.. The one I cannot change is running
Netscape SuiteSpot (not bashing, but Netscape is not exactly considered
friendly by Microsoft)
> BTW you're missing the Cumulative Update for OE6-SP1:
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=kb;en-us;Q331923
Hmm, thanks for the suggestion, but I already have that as well.... I
have ALL patches recommended and critical by
http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com....
Thanks,
-Jeremy
Graham
with an IMAP4 server (but not sure which revision) run by Critical Path.
Messages marked as unread or deleted stay that way after a send/receive, or
after just changing folder, or by a send/receive on a POP3 account or after
anything else I can think of.
OE does have IMAP issues such as the doubling of the new message count in
the folder list, the double notification on new mail (once when it gets the
header, once when it downloads the message), the need to change folders to
reflect moved messages, the occassional "deleted" new message that can't be
purged and has to be moved from/to the inbox to make it readable (or really
deleted and purgeable) and so on. However, IMAP seems to be a standard that
isn't very standard* and I have had issues in the past that turned out to be
at the server end, so these may or may not be OE problems.
Since there is at least one IMAP server that doesn't have the problem you
are having my guess* is that it isn't on MS's list of things to be fixed.
Graham
* Disclaimer: This is a guess. An opinion. It is in no way based on any
facts, evidence or knowledge on my part and should not be construed as such.
Others may have opinions that differ with my guess, but it's a free world**
and they have every right to hold that opinion. I am not attempting to
influence anybody's attitude towards MS or any other company.
** Although some bits are freer than others, but that's not my fault
either***.
*** That's also just an opinion.
Jeremy Hopf <Jerem...@Verizon.net> wrote:
>
> step 1, goto inbox (on IMAP server)
> step 2, take a message marked as read, right click, select "Mark as
> Unread"
> step 3, click on "Send and Receive All" button...
> step 4, check to see if message is still marked unread...
>
Jack Ak
in the headers for your message.
Jeremy Hopf
> in the headers for your message.
>
Problem remains.. I made the mistake of assuming that IE6SP1 would come
with OE6SP1.. I even reinstalled the SP1 cumulative patch... problem
still remains..
-Jeremy
Graham
that has the problem, which might explain why you've experienced the same
problem with every version and subversion of OE and I've never experienced
it with the same versions and subversions.
Graham
Robert Aldwinckle
In that case perhaps he should try using the troubleshooting
logging for IMAP and look for some errors in it. (Alt-T,O,Ctrl-Backtab,I).
The good news is that that trace is one of the most comprehensive
that OE provides. The bad news is that not many people here are
familiar enough with IMAP to understand it.
---
"Graham" <spam...@here.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:uIEiahDoCHA.1888@TK2MSFTNGP09...
Tom Koch
> Does ANYONE run OE with IMAP4 and not have the problem I am having?
Me. Sorry to join in so late in the thread, but I was away. I currently have 7
IMAP accounts and I can't reproduce the problem you describe on any of them. I
also have all my clients using IMAP, and none of them have ever reported this
problem. I agree with Graham who suggested it was a configuration issue on your
IMAP server, not anything in Outlook Express itself.
--
----Please post questions and replies in the newsgroups----
Tom Koch - MVP for Internet Explorer and Outlook Express
Awareness is free.
Inside Outlook Express: http://insideOE.tomsterdam.com
Tom Koch
> OE does have IMAP issues such as the doubling of the new message count in
> the folder list, the double notification on new mail (once when it gets the
> header, once when it downloads the message),
Graham, I don't see that on any of my 7 IMAP accounts. I think that happens
only if you have an IMAP Inbox as your default, you set OE to open in the Inbox
AND you have OE set to check for new messages at startup. See
http://insideoe.tomsterdam.com/faqs/why.htm#dupes
> the need to change folders to reflect moved messages,
I don't see that problem either, unless I add a check mark for View|Current
View|Show Deleted Messages. If you uncheck that, moving a message (which marks
the original as Deleted) causes the message to be hidden from the current
folder. It will be purged when you manually purge, or when you switch folders
and OE is set to purge when changing folders.
> the occassional "deleted" new message that can't be
> purged and has to be moved from/to the inbox to make it readable (or really
> deleted and purgeable) and so on.
Hmm, I've never seen that one either. That sounds to me like damage to the
local store folder though, and can probably be fixed by compacting all folders.
Jeremy Hopf
server in question runs Netscape SuiteSpot (IMAP4) and as not worked for
years (with OE) I have additionally tried with Cyrus (a quick and dirty
Linux IMAP4 server) and I had the same problem.. I'd love it to be some
setting, (I'll search SuiteSpots KB) but I doubt it since I have used many
e-mail clients, (OE, Outlook 2000, Outlook XP, Netscape 4.79, Netscape 6.X,
Motzilla, Ximian Evolution.. ) and only had the problem with OE..
The only client I have had this problem with is OE...
Thanks for the information.. And I agree, probably not a priority..
(ESP since I've had this problem with various versions of OE for almost 3
years)
"Graham" <spam...@here.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:O9JeQEAoCHA.2312@TK2MSFTNGP12...
Graham
Doubling: the count that gets doubled is the one in the bottom right of the
screen rather than the one in the folder list. (It used to be that one too
but somewhere along the line that seems to have been fixed). Also, if you
set Windows to play a sound on new mail you will hear it twice on each of
the header and message body download. As you say, this could well be because
my IMAP inbox is the default and I want it to check for mail on startup.
(Only the count gets doubled though, not the actual message).
Moved messages: so it does. Thanks!
"Deleted" messages: This is really rare. In two years and over about 70
accounts I've seen it less than a dozen times. If it hadn't happend to me on
a couple of those I would have thought the user had done something
themselves. A new message will arrive and will show in the inbox as deleted.
If you try to purge it still stays there. You can't open it to read as the
message body is not there and you can't undelete it. The fix is to drag it
to another folder. At this point it becomes really deleted in the inbox and
also readable in that other folder. So dragging it back and purging both
folders leaves OE looking how it should have done originally. I suspect it
might occur if there is some delay or interruption to the comms or virus
scanning interfering at some particular point of getting the message, but
since it's almost impossible to replicate I don't know.
With IMAP being rather more complicated than POP it seems just as likely
that any of these could be at the server end rather than the client.
Graham
PS. You haven't come across an "attachment removal" program anywhere have
you? It's a real pain dragging a message out of OE, changing it to .TXT,
manually editting it (especially if you want a "file deleted" message to
show in the HTML section), renaming it to .EML and dragging it back.
Graham
Have you ever found that if you take a long time to write a message and then
click "send" that the message composition screen doesn't close? If you
check the sent messages folder then you can see it has gone, but it's very
easy to click on send again and duplicate it by mistake. The correct way to
exit is to close the window manually and say that you don't want to keep the
changes. I think it might be due to a timeout on the server connection.
Thanks,
Graham
Jeremy Hopf
unknown setting on the server, or to change the server... :(
This is just a touch frustrating considering that our IMAP server is
supposed to be strictly 100% compliant to the protocol standards...
Compliant to all applicable RFC's etc.. (with our current config) I tend
to trust that fact... which makes me wonder why there isn't at-least
some-way to make OE comply..
Or maybe it is a fault of our configuration.. I just wonder why OE is the
only e-mail client that shows this problem..
-Jeremy
"Tom Koch" <he...@insideoe.tomsterdam.com> wrote in message
news:OQ0UszGoCHA.2168@TK2MSFTNGP10...
Jeremy Hopf
commands? (telnet on port 25)
Also, where should I look for this ellusive logfile?
-Jeremy
"Robert Aldwinckle" <rob...@techemail.com> wrote in message
news:eDCE8lGoCHA.704@TK2MSFTNGP09...
Robert Aldwinckle
> I have turned on IMAP logging.. Does it resemble anything like SMTP
> commands? (telnet on port 25)
I have only seen it once. From what I can recall it seemed
much more comprehensive than that. Closer to a true program
logic trace than any of the others. E.g., not just data but interpretation
of data and other non-data details.
>
> Also, where should I look for this ellusive logfile?
>
It should be in the Message Store Location. (MSL)
I assume that it is called IMAP.log but am not sure.
Here's how I would try opening it.
In OE copy the the MSL to clipboard:
Alt-T,O,Ctrl-Backtab,F,Y,Ctrl-c
In Notepad open anything in that directory of type *.log:
Ctrl-o,Ctrl-v,\*.log,Enter
Pick the log file that seems closest to IMAP.log
Good luck
Robert
---
whoever
> I think you were too busy bashing MS that you missed the answer to your
> question. Re-read the past messages for the KB article.
You mean the KB article that proves that Jeff was right (MS knows about the
problem, and hasn't fixed it in at least 3 different versions of OE)?
> PS2: You claim you work computer support for a living. How much help do
> you give people who call you and start out by bashing the product? Now
> imagine how much help that would be if you were not paid, instead doing
> it as a volanteer. THAT is why you haven't gotten direct answers to
> your question. (hint: I worked support for 10 years too).
I have to say that David was way over the top in his reaction. There is
plenty of evidence that MS has no interest in fixing this issue. Whether or
not they aren't fixing it because someone decided to nobble IMAP is purely
a matter of conjecture, but Jeff is entitled to his opinion - especially as
he has clearly made the effort to try and reproduce the error on a wide
variety of client configurations.