New WinDbg requires entire WDK?

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Alex

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Feb 26, 2010, 10:10:39 PM2/26/10
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This is a really horrible idea. What used to be a 20Mb download is now
over 600MB, every time an update to WinDbg is going to be made.

I really hope it doesn't remain this way.

Jochen Kalmbach [MVP]

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Feb 27, 2010, 3:18:55 AM2/27/10
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Hi Alex!

> This is a really horrible idea. What used to be a 20Mb download is now
> over 600MB, every time an update to WinDbg is going to be made.

+1

> I really hope it doesn't remain this way.

We will never understand marketing...

(nor do we understand why WinDbg does not support managed code)

--
Greetings
Jochen

My blog about Win32 and .NET
http://blog.kalmbachnet.de/

Paul Attryde

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Feb 27, 2010, 6:51:07 PM2/27/10
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Alex wrote:
> This is a really horrible idea. What used to be a 20Mb download is now
> over 600MB, every time an update to WinDbg is going to be made.

+1

Can anyone from MS explain the new requirement ? The Windbg
website is lacking an explanation.

Paul

Andrew McLaren

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Feb 27, 2010, 8:11:55 PM2/27/10
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Yowza! I just took a look at the website. Yes, the only way to get the
latest WinDBG 6.12.2.633 is to download the entire WDK (~600+ MB).

Either there's some fantastic new feature we don't know about, which
requires the whole WDK installed (unlikely); or else it is some
bone-headed packaging decision by some nameless, faceless middle-tier
program manager, hounded by product managers in weekly meetings, and
living in terror of his next Mid-year discussion.

This is insane. It is extremely inconvenient, and unnecessary.

I will send my feedback to MSFT via the Connect site. I strongly
recommend everyone else do the same.

Thanks Alex, for pointing out this unfortunate news.

Andrew

--
amclar at optusnet dot com dot au

Mario Hewardt [The HighTech Avenue]

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Feb 27, 2010, 9:54:17 PM2/27/10
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I don't think you have to download 600+ MB just to get the debuggers. They
are also available in the SDK
(http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c17ba869-9671-4330-a63e-1fd44e0e2505&displaylang=en)
which has a web installer that allows you to choose which components to
install. If you only want the debuggers, then you can deselect all other
options.

"Andrew McLaren" <and...@invalid.domain.com> wrote in message
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Geoff

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Feb 28, 2010, 3:31:22 AM2/28/10
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On Sat, 27 Feb 2010 18:54:17 -0800, "Mario Hewardt [The HighTech
Avenue]" <mar...@advancedwindowsdebugging.com> wrote:

>I don't think you have to download 600+ MB just to get the debuggers. They
>are also available in the SDK
>(http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c17ba869-9671-4330-a63e-1fd44e0e2505&displaylang=en)
>which has a web installer that allows you to choose which components to
>install. If you only want the debuggers, then you can deselect all other
>options.

Mario,

You are right - I have just done that - but not sure how I would have
found it without your link!

Cheers,

Geoff

Alex

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Feb 28, 2010, 4:47:43 AM2/28/10
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Hi,

On Feb 28, 1:54 pm, "Mario Hewardt [The HighTech Avenue]"


<mar...@advancedwindowsdebugging.com> wrote:
> I don't think you have to download 600+ MB just to get the debuggers. They
> are also available in the SDK

> (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c17ba869-967...)


> which has a web installer that allows you to choose which components to
> install. If you only want the debuggers, then you can deselect all other
> options.

Ah, that looks promising! Thanks Mario (I enjoyed your book, BTW).

- Alex

pat styles [microosft]

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Feb 28, 2010, 8:33:12 AM2/28/10
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Don't want to spoil the party for anyone but the version of the debugger
that is in the SDK is 6.11, dated 2-25.2009. It is a year behind the
product available in the WDK. That's why I didn't mention it to anyone on
this newsgroup.

.pat styles [microsoft]

"Mario Hewardt [The HighTech Avenue]" <mar...@advancedwindowsdebugging.com>

wrote in message news:u4CcVFCu...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

Ant

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Feb 28, 2010, 9:56:10 AM2/28/10
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On 2/26/2010 7:10 PM PT, Alex typed:

> This is a really horrible idea. What used to be a 20Mb download is now
> over 600MB, every time an update to WinDbg is going to be made.
>
> I really hope it doesn't remain this way.

Agreed especially on limited Internet connections. I only care about
WinDbg! I hope I can download the ISO file and extract to a folder and
install WinDbg.
--
"Oh, look what Kyle got me, it's a red Mega... Ants in the pants? Ants
in the pants?! Ants in the Pants?!! ..." --Eric Cartman in South Park's
Damien Episode (Season 1; Episode 8)
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phil./Ant @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links: http://aqfl.net
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Ant

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Feb 28, 2010, 9:57:25 AM2/28/10
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Nice, but how about a non-downloader version? I only want WinDbg installer.


On 2/27/2010 6:54 PM PT, Mario Hewardt [The HighTech Avenue] typed:

> I don't think you have to download 600+ MB just to get the debuggers.
> They are also available in the SDK
> (http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=c17ba869-9671-4330-a63e-1fd44e0e2505&displaylang=en)
> which has a web installer that allows you to choose which components to
> install. If you only want the debuggers, then you can deselect all other
> options.

--
"Cheerios: Hula-hoops for ants." --unknown


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Ant

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Feb 28, 2010, 9:59:05 AM2/28/10
to pat.s...@microsoft.com
Hey Pat.

You misspelled your employer's name ;) in your "pat styles [microosft]"
name.

;)
--
"... Our world is not an ant farm!" --Duncan MacLeod (Highlander Season
3 Finale Part II)

Geoff

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Feb 28, 2010, 11:23:57 AM2/28/10
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On Sun, 28 Feb 2010 21:33:12 +0800, "pat styles [microosft]"
<pat.s...@microsoft.com> wrote:

>Don't want to spoil the party for anyone but the version of the debugger
>that is in the SDK is 6.11, dated 2-25.2009. It is a year behind the
>product available in the WDK. That's why I didn't mention it to anyone on
>this newsgroup.

Pat,

thanks for that info - back to the CD I made of the WDK files!

Cheers,

Geoff

Ant

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Feb 28, 2010, 11:48:20 AM2/28/10
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On 2/28/2010 6:56 AM PT, Ant typed:

>> This is a really horrible idea. What used to be a 20Mb download is now
>> over 600MB, every time an update to WinDbg is going to be made.
>>
>> I really hope it doesn't remain this way.
>
> Agreed especially on limited Internet connections. I only care about
> WinDbg! I hope I can download the ISO file and extract to a folder and
> install WinDbg.

FYI, I was able to extract the datas from my downloaded ISO copy and
just install WinDbg from its Debugger folder/directory without problems.
I zipped that up to save on my local machine for future. ;)

MS still needs to go back to old way to provide a separate download
instead of having to download the huge ISO file.
--
"Ants can lift up to 50 times their own weight. And your monitor is
missing. Time to bring out the bugspray." --BBspot's Geek Horoscopes
(2/28/2003)


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pat styles [microosft]

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Feb 28, 2010, 6:44:50 PM2/28/10
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Hello everybody.

I encourage those of you that have an opinion on this to consider expressing
it to wind...@microsoft.com. This email address is a mailing list at
Microsoft that exists specifically to get your feedback. It is manned by
people in the company with an interest in this space. This is the best
place I know to get your vote counted and to say specifically *why* you feel
as you do.

.pat styles [microsoft]

"Geoff" <ge...@invalid.com> wrote in message
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David Craig

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Feb 28, 2010, 8:16:21 PM2/28/10
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The WDK is updated very seldom. Recently it only occurs with major OS
releases and service packs for the latest OS. Windbg is much improved in
the last 10-15 years, but it still has some limitations. Some of the
extensions could be updated to fix issues such as the frequent mention of
.NET code not being fully supported. Some extensions have recently be
released with dependencies on certain private symbols. When things like
this occur, maybe an updated extension can be more easily released and not
require the only fix available to be new symbol files that might expose
internals Microsoft would not like to share.

I do agree that the WDK should include windbg but the installer should check
for a current installation and allow the user to choose if it should be
updated, replaced, or just skipped. Inform the user of the version that it
wishes to install and the any already installed version. Maybe the windbg
installer should offer the option to delete all workspaces no matter the
installation source - WDK or standalone.

For those who want to know, I almost always delete the workspaces and run
either standard or multi-monitor standard depending upon which machine I am
installing to. I have the symbol and debug extension paths in the
environment. I run windbg with no options, position the windows as I
prefer, and set options about tabs and others I need to get my environment
the way I want it. I then use it and have it build the workspaces for
1394a, USB, & serial to have them all pick up the default workspace's
options. I usually keep a shortcut on my desktop for each variety as I
never know when I will need something other than 1394a or the default crash
dump shortcut.

I have a development notebook that has dual monitor support and another
notebook that only uses a single monitor. I do not want to install the WDK
on the second notebook but only windbg. I use this for long term debugging
on a lab system so I can keep my main notebook available for development and
testing in my office.


"pat styles [microosft]" <pat.s...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
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Andrew McLaren

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Mar 1, 2010, 3:12:05 AM3/1/10
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On 1/03/2010 10:44, pat styles [microosft] wrote:
> I encourage those of you that have an opinion on this to consider expressing
> it to wind...@microsoft.com. This email address is a mailing list at
> Microsoft that exists specifically to get your feedback. It is manned by

Thanks Pat! That is great info. I'll email that alias.

Cheers
Andrew

ex-Building 1, retrenched Jan 2009 :-)

Stephane Barizien

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Mar 1, 2010, 8:58:42 AM3/1/10
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Well...

While I am also puzzled by the new decision, download sizes are not such a
big issue anymore these days. And updates to Debugging Tools for Windows are
not that frequent.

And you don't need to install the entire WDK if all you need is the DTW
package; just use the /Debuggers/dbg_x86.msi file (assuming you're running
on x86).


"Alex" <abud...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Stephane Barizien

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Mar 1, 2010, 9:01:08 AM3/1/10
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you don't need to install the entire WDK if all you need is the DTW package;
just use the /Debuggers/dbg_x86.msi file (assuming you're running on x86).

"Andrew McLaren" <and...@invalid.domain.com> wrote in message
news:ehYnGMBu...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

Don Burn

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Mar 1, 2010, 9:10:10 AM3/1/10
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Actually, download sizes can be a huge problem. For a while yesterday
the download speed I was achieving for the WDK was 2KB/sec, don't know
where the bottleneck was but I wasn't going to wait the estimated 700
hours. Worse yet the WDK is typically revised less than once a year,
one of the good things about Windbg was the fairly fast cycle on fixes.
Of course that still depends on the fix, I've been waiting 5 years for
them to fix the installer which does not allow side by side installation
of Windbg, since it always unloads earlier versions.


Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

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pat styles [microosft]

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Mar 1, 2010, 10:01:36 AM3/1/10
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Hello Don.

Windbg is xcopy installable. By that, I mean that you can simply perform a
recursive copy of your windbg directory to another location and then install
the new version of windbg. That way you will have both (or more) copies
running side-by-side. I have never had less than 2 or 3 copies of windbg on
any of my machines. That is also how I load usb flash memory with windbg
for debugging other peoples' machines.

.pat styles [microsoft]

"Don Burn" <bu...@stopspam.windrvr.com> wrote in message
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Don Burn

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Mar 1, 2010, 10:11:52 AM3/1/10
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I've been hearing this as an argument forever. And because Microsoft
can't fix the bug, they want me to handle it. To me this is a bug, I
can't use add and remove programs on Windbg with an xcopy install.
There are better hacks than this, such as saving the registry entries
for Windbg then restoring them, BUT THE BOTTOM LINE THIS IS A BUG THAT
THE WINDBG TEAM REFUSES TO FIX!!!!!!


Don Burn (MVP, Windows DKD)
Windows Filesystem and Driver Consulting
Website: http://www.windrvr.com
Blog: http://msmvps.com/blogs/WinDrvr

"pat styles [microosft]" <pat.s...@microsoft.com> wrote in message

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Ant

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Mar 2, 2010, 1:32:00 AM3/2/10
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On 2/28/2010 3:44 PM PT, pat styles [microosft] typed:

> Hello everybody.
>
> I encourage those of you that have an opinion on this to consider expressing
> it to wind...@microsoft.com. This email address is a mailing list at
> Microsoft that exists specifically to get your feedback. It is manned by
> people in the company with an interest in this space. This is the best
> place I know to get your vote counted and to say specifically *why* you feel
> as you do.

Done! :) Everyone do it, please!
--
"To the ant, a few drops of dew is a flood." --Iranian


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Ant

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Mar 2, 2010, 1:33:22 AM3/2/10
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On 3/1/2010 6:01 AM PT, Stephane Barizien typed:

> you don't need to install the entire WDK if all you need is the DTW package;
> just use the /Debuggers/dbg_x86.msi file (assuming you're running on x86).

Yeah, but we don't want to download 600+ MB just to do that. :(
--
"In every enemy that is an ant, behold an elephant." --Turkish

Ant

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Mar 2, 2010, 1:34:59 AM3/2/10
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On 3/1/2010 5:58 AM PT, Stephane Barizien typed:

> While I am also puzzled by the new decision, download sizes are not such a
> big issue anymore these days. And updates to Debugging Tools for Windows are
> not that frequent.

Not everyone has fast Internet connections and unlimited data plans.
--
"For every 1 person on earth there are 1 million ants." --Factoid for
the video of Adam Ant's "Goody Two Shoes" Pop Up Video

pat styles [microosft]

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Mar 2, 2010, 8:56:56 AM3/2/10
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Hello Don.

I am sorry if you do not agree with the implementation of the windbg
installation package. Whereas I completely understand your interpretation
of the behavior, I have to respectfully tell you that there are those that
feel this is a feature. I can also say that the behavior is most certainly
deliberate. I will not say that everyone involved is of the same mind on
how this should act.

For as long as I can remember, the windbg programmers have been meticulous
in making sure that the installation does not require any registry settings
or other COM registration or whatever in order to run. I remember there
was a lot of heartache requiring some version of IE in order to support HTTP
Symbol Server clients. A recursive xcopy installation has remained a
requirement since it was first implemented and the entire debugging tools
run from USB keys, floppies, crash carts, even alternate boot scenarios. I
think you have to admit that is somewhat unique in today's software.

So while it is clear that you are not happy with the behavior of the
installation package, I think you have to admit that this behavior is not
unusual and that there has been a diligent effort to make sure side-by-side
and zero-setup installation is supported. I am simply trying to help you by
giving you a workaround. There may be better workarounds out there, and if
so, I am glad.

.pat styles [microsoft]

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rogero

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Mar 2, 2010, 9:33:20 AM3/2/10
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Pat Styles wrote:

> For as long as I can remember, the windbg programmers have been meticulous
> in making sure that the installation does not require any registry settings
> or other COM registration or whatever in order to run.

This effort is much appreciated, especially given the time and places
where Windbg and the dbghelp dlls are so useful.

Roger.

pat styles [microosft]

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Mar 2, 2010, 12:39:54 PM3/2/10
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I know that whenever I picture what scenario the user is running, I imagined
the oldest and least powerful computer in the company, sitting on a wheeled
crash cart, and running Windows 9X or NT4.x because it didn't have the
horsepower to run anything else. It has a serial debugging cable hanging
off the computer, ready to attach to any server in the lab that goes south.
Nobody buys new computers to do debugging - it's normally a an ugly
stepsister to the other tasks and the hardware allocated to it is no better.

.pat styles [microsoft]

"rogero" <roge...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Marc Sherman

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Mar 2, 2010, 4:49:25 PM3/2/10
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Also done!

"Ant" <a...@zimage.comANT> wrote in message
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Avi Cohen Stuart

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Mar 3, 2010, 3:25:28 AM3/3/10
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Hi Pat,

by which you indicate yourself actually that windbg should remain a stand
alone installable.

I also mailed to the e-mal address you gave in this thread.

Regards,

Avi.


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