OT: regarding George

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Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]

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Jan 31, 2008, 4:31:49 AM1/31/08
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Per the investigation performed and documented in this thread from
microsoft.public.win32.programmer

http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel/browse_thread/thread/4c6ae8900c66b2a8/e8d17abd797a1832?lnk=st&q=%22OT%3A+regarding+George+George%22#e8d17abd797a1832

there is reasonable evidence that the postings from
Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT
or automated agent, they are repeated in a almost multi-post-fashion
in several groups, even if the NNTP-Posting path seem to originate
from different servers, and, they cover topics that can be machine
extracted from readly available soruces and they have no follow-up.

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David Wilkinson

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Jan 31, 2008, 6:34:05 AM1/31/08
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Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT] wrote:
> Per the investigation performed and documented in this thread from
> microsoft.public.win32.programmer
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel/browse_thread/thread/4c6ae8900c66b2a8/e8d17abd797a1832?lnk=st&q=%22OT%3A+regarding+George+George%22#e8d17abd797a1832
>
> there is reasonable evidence that the postings from
> Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT
> or automated agent, they are repeated in a almost multi-post-fashion
> in several groups, even if the NNTP-Posting path seem to originate
> from different servers, and, they cover topics that can be machine
> extracted from readly available soruces and they have no follow-up.

The notion that George himself might be an automaton certainly brought a smile
to my face, even though it was not the favored explanation.

George, you are welcome here, but please change your newsreader, because you are
upsetting a lot of people in the other groups.

--
David Wilkinson
Visual C++ MVP

Cholo Lennon

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Jan 31, 2008, 7:46:23 AM1/31/08
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David Wilkinson wrote:
> Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT] wrote:
>> Per the investigation performed and documented in this thread from
>> microsoft.public.win32.programmer
>>
>>
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.win32.programmer.kernel/browse_t
hread/thread/4c6ae8900c66b2a8/e8d17abd797a1832?lnk=st&q=%22OT%3A+regarding+Georg
e+George%22#e8d17abd797a1832
>>
>> there is reasonable evidence that the postings from
>> Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT
>> or automated agent, they are repeated in a almost multi-post-fashion
>> in several groups, even if the NNTP-Posting path seem to originate
>> from different servers, and, they cover topics that can be machine
>> extracted from readly available soruces and they have no follow-up.
>
> The notion that George himself might be an automaton certainly
> brought a smile to my face, even though it was not the favored
> explanation.

Yeah, very funny... a BOT who can understand the answers (with the exception of
those related to newsgroup multiposting and OT questions) and reads books from
Stroustrup :-P
George... are you a BOT? Can you tell us something about Hal 9000? :-)

>
> George, you are welcome here, but please change your newsreader,
> because you are upsetting a lot of people in the other groups.

Agree

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG

Alex Blekhman

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Jan 31, 2008, 8:29:22 AM1/31/08
to
"Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]" wrote:
> Per the investigation performed and documented in this thread
> from
> microsoft.public.win32.programmer [...] there is reasonable
> evidence that the postings from
> Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT
> or automated agent, [...]

Considering George's habit to [almost automatically] reiterate
over discussion topics, I won't be surprised if he's indeed some
kind of bot. Most likely not fully automatic, but manually
corrected from time to time.

I noticed that George's posts are quite uneven: from blind
restating (often verbatim) a previous post with request to
"confirm" to fairly intelligent answers (probably when the creator
of the bot intervenes and puts it back on the right track).

BTW, "X-Newsreader: Microsoft CDO for Windows 2000" header is
produced by MSDN web interface to Usenet:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/newsgroups/

Alex

P.S. George, if you're indeed real person, then please use a
Usenet reader other than MSDN online newsgroups.


Anthony Wieser

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Jan 31, 2008, 8:35:04 AM1/31/08
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> Considering George's habit to [almost automatically] reiterate over
> discussion topics, I won't be surprised if he's indeed some kind of bot.
> Most likely not fully automatic, but manually corrected from time to time.

I just thought he was a lazy student getting us to do his homework, and gave
up answering after requests
> to "confirm" fairly intelligent answers (probably when the creator of the

> bot intervenes and puts it back on the right track).

I'd be much more impressed with a bot!


Tony

Anthony Wieser

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Jan 31, 2008, 8:35:55 AM1/31/08
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> Considering George's habit to [almost automatically] reiterate over
> discussion topics, I won't be surprised if he's indeed some kind of bot.
> Most likely not fully automatic, but manually corrected from time to time.

I just thought he was a lazy student getting us to do his homework, and gave
up answering after requests
> to "confirm" fairly intelligent answers (probably when the creator of the


> bot intervenes and puts it back on the right track).

I'd be much more impressed with a bot!


Tony

P.S. Igor seems to have the patience of a saint.

Vladimir Grigoriev

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:16:31 AM1/31/08
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I think George is an ordinary guy who learns C++ and who does this with
love. :)

Vladimir Grigoriev

"Alex Blekhman" <tkfx....@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:OGvQM1A...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]

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Jan 31, 2008, 11:10:27 AM1/31/08
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"Vladimir Grigoriev" <vlad....@mail.ru> wrote in message
news:OQVGuMB...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

>I think George is an ordinary guy who learns C++ and who does this with
>love. :)

I think George is an ordinary guy who is missing a key personality
requirement for a good developer -- willingness to learn through trial and
error, and develop code to test hypotheses.

Vladimir Grigoriev

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:02:17 PM1/31/08
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In Russia in these cases people usually says: one head is good, two heads
are better!:)

Vladimir Grigoriev

"Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]" <r...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:uEDwXOCZ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

Alex Blekhman

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:02:05 PM1/31/08
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"Vladimir Grigoriev" wrote:
> I think George is an ordinary guy who learns C++ and who does
> this with love. :)

I don't agree. Quite often he jumps into advanced complicated
topics without necessary basic knowledge. Having being advised by
others to master basic staff first, he ignores it and insists on
learning "tricks".

Alex


Vladimir Grigoriev

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:15:34 PM1/31/08
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I think he reads several C++ books simultaneously. :)

Vladimir Grigoriev

"Alex Blekhman" <tkfx....@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:OCXhDsCZ...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Mark Salsbery [MVP]

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Jan 31, 2008, 1:05:55 PM1/31/08
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That's hilarious!

My main home is codeproject.com, and he posts the same questions there as
well.
I see his posts twice every day.

Like others have mentioned, for a bot, he does a great job discussing
replies to his threads :)

Cheers,
Mark

--
Mark Salsbery
Microsoft MVP - Visual C++


"Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]" <ivan...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:OPUYcw#YIHA...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Mark Salsbery [MVP]

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Jan 31, 2008, 1:12:02 PM1/31/08
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"Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]" <r...@nospam.nospam> wrote in message
news:uEDwXOCZ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>

> "Vladimir Grigoriev" <vlad....@mail.ru> wrote in message
> news:OQVGuMB...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...
>>I think George is an ordinary guy who learns C++ and who does this with
>>love. :)
>
> I think George is an ordinary guy who is missing a key personality
> requirement for a good developer -- willingness to learn through trial and
> error, and develop code to test hypotheses.
>


I agree! I see his posts in two newsgroups every day, and while I'm
fascinated with the depth he's digging in to the theory, I can't help
thinking "dude, you need to write some code!"

Cheers,
Mark

--
Mark Salsbery
Microsoft MVP - Visual C++


>>

Nathan Mates

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Jan 31, 2008, 1:38:42 PM1/31/08
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In article <F14E1819-55BA-4D51...@microsoft.com>,

Mark Salsbery [MVP] <MarkSalsbery[MVP]@newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>I agree! I see his posts in two newsgroups every day, and while I'm
>fascinated with the depth he's digging in to the theory, I can't help
>thinking "dude, you need to write some code!"

My theory is that he's trying to write a book -- possibly in a
non-English language, and needs help with examples/problems. That
would explain the extreme focus on minutiae, and absence of any
real code.

Nathan Mates
--
<*> Nathan Mates - personal webpage http://www.visi.com/~nathan/
# Programmer at Pandemic Studios -- http://www.pandemicstudios.com/
# NOT speaking for Pandemic Studios. "Care not what the neighbors
# think. What are the facts, and to how many decimal places?" -R.A. Heinlein

Mark Salsbery [MVP]

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Jan 31, 2008, 1:47:20 PM1/31/08
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"Nathan Mates" <nat...@visi.com> wrote in message
news:13q45di...@corp.supernews.com...

> In article <F14E1819-55BA-4D51...@microsoft.com>,
> Mark Salsbery [MVP] <MarkSalsbery[MVP]@newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>>I agree! I see his posts in two newsgroups every day, and while I'm
>>fascinated with the depth he's digging in to the theory, I can't help
>>thinking "dude, you need to write some code!"
>
> My theory is that he's trying to write a book -- possibly in a
> non-English language, and needs help with examples/problems. That
> would explain the extreme focus on minutiae, and absence of any
> real code.


Funny. That's what I asked one of the first times I replied to him..."Are
you writing a book?" :-)

Mark

--
Mark Salsbery
Microsoft MVP - Visual C++

>

Cholo Lennon

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Jan 31, 2008, 2:18:23 PM1/31/08
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Mark Salsbery [MVP] wrote:
> "Nathan Mates" <nat...@visi.com> wrote in message
> news:13q45di...@corp.supernews.com...
>> In article <F14E1819-55BA-4D51...@microsoft.com>,
>> Mark Salsbery [MVP] <MarkSalsbery[MVP]@newsgroup.nospam> wrote:
>>> I agree! I see his posts in two newsgroups every day, and while I'm
>>> fascinated with the depth he's digging in to the theory, I can't
>>> help thinking "dude, you need to write some code!"
>>
>> My theory is that he's trying to write a book -- possibly in a
>> non-English language, and needs help with examples/problems. That
>> would explain the extreme focus on minutiae, and absence of any
>> real code.
>
>
> Funny. That's what I asked one of the first times I replied to
> him..."Are you writing a book?" :-)
>

C'mon George, could you clarify your position? We are making a lot
suppositions: Are you a Bot, a Writer, a C++ Student, an ordinary guy... ?

Pavel A.

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Jan 31, 2008, 3:01:46 PM1/31/08
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"Mark Salsbery [MVP]" <MarkSalsbery[MVP]@newsgroup.nospam> wrote in message
news:F5593CE1-7CC7-4710...@microsoft.com...

> That's hilarious!
>
> My main home is codeproject.com, and he posts the same questions there as well.
> I see his posts twice every day.
>
> Like others have mentioned, for a bot, he does a great job discussing replies to his threads :)

His replies are quite "automated" and overall this looks
like an AI experiment ...
A computer loaded with scanned copies of CS books ? :))
( Now his creators should be busy working on the code writing function -
inspired by our cheerful feedback )

--PA

Pavel A.

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Jan 31, 2008, 2:58:43 PM1/31/08
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"Vladimir Grigoriev" <vlad....@mail.ru> wrote in message news:%23LBgWpC...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

> In Russia in these cases people usually says: one head is good, two heads are better!:)
>

What they say in Russia, that one newb can ask so many questions
that a hundred MVPs won't answer them.

Regards,
- PA


Brian Muth

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Jan 31, 2008, 3:50:52 PM1/31/08
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This sounds like a variation of the Turing test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test)

It's interesting to re-read old posts and see how much deep research has gone into answering some of George's questions.

Of course, George doesn't seem to analyze the responses very well, and often not at all. This has often led to frustrated
exclamatives from the poster. George often then placates the poster with a "Thank you, <Poster>! My question is answered!".

It's interesting how we build up a image of George in our mind's eye: someone you are inclined to help because he is grateful, and
because the questions are generally easy to answer, but someone you are thankful doesn't work in your company; he uses the lingo but
is lost in the understanding.

Of course, there is the emotional response of dismay about possibly being duped. It reminds me of a Eureka moment when I was five
years old looking at my stuffed animals.

Brian


Ben Voigt [C++ MVP]

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Jan 31, 2008, 4:25:56 PM1/31/08
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"Brian Muth" <bm...@mvps.org> wrote in message
news:ujenRtEZ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> This sounds like a variation of the Turing test
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test)
>
> It's interesting to re-read old posts and see how much deep research has
> gone into answering some of George's questions.
>
> Of course, George doesn't seem to analyze the responses very well, and
> often not at all. This has often led to frustrated exclamatives from the
> poster. George often then placates the poster with a "Thank you, <Poster>!
> My question is answered!".

But not all George's replies follow that pattern. Many of them ask new
questions in the same uninformed way as the original post, but these new
questions are generally related somehow to the explanation given. This
could be nothing more than a full-text relevancy rating I suppose.

Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]

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Jan 31, 2008, 8:06:19 PM1/31/08
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FYI:
The BOT/Artificial-Intelligence-experiment/Newsgroup-Ranking-evaluator
has started the same on
microsoft.public.win32.programmer.gdi

Ondrej Spanel

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Feb 1, 2008, 3:22:27 AM2/1/08
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> But not all George's replies follow that pattern. Many of them ask new
> questions in the same uninformed way as the original post, but these new
> questions are generally related somehow to the explanation given. This
> could be nothing more than a full-text relevancy rating I suppose.

This is real fun - if George is a real person, I hope he is entertained,
and not offended by this (and perhaps he might learn something about how
others view his questions here at the same time).

I agree some of his questions follow suspicious Elisa-like pattern "You
said XXX, can you please explain it more?", and it is suspicious he is
mostly not answering questions like about what newsclient is he using,
but at least in one case I have posted a sample code, which he analysed,
made some comments and modified the code in a sensible way to make it
work slightly different. I may be mistaken, but I do not think any AI
bot is capable of this.

The thread I am referencing to
ishttp://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.vc.language/browse_thread/thread/35cdf48db03a246d/60a80c6e2568f700


My opinion still is George is a real person, albeit somewhat confused,
and what makes it more confusing for us is he is using some strange way
to send posts to the newsgroups, which means his intial post are always
replicated to other groups. The replicated posts can be easily
recognized by being marked as George George, and it is those posts he is
not reacting to.

Gosh .. I would never think I would dedicate so much time to an issue
like this, instead of simply setting ignore filter to both George and
George George posts. :)

Cheers
Ondrej
----------------
Ondrej Spanel
Bohemia Interactive Lead Programmer
http://www.bistudio.com

Ben Voigt [C++ MVP] napsal(a):

David Webber

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Jan 31, 2008, 2:32:06 PM1/31/08
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"Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]" <ivan...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:OPUYcw%23YIH...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

> there is reasonable evidence that the postings from
> Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT

Can we count the name George (previously the standard name for the autopilot
in aircraft) as supporting evidence? If so he clearly isn't trying to
deceive anyone. :-)

Dave
--
David Webber
Author of 'Mozart the Music Processor'
http://www.mozart.co.uk
For discussion/support see
http://www.mozart.co.uk/mozartists/mailinglist.htm

Ondrej Spanel

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Feb 1, 2008, 3:47:26 AM2/1/08
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Interesting. I did not know this - one learns a lot of usefull things in
those usenet waters. :)

While verifying this, I have found another meaning which would
characterize some of the George's answers, see below.

Ondrej
-------------------------

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=George&defid=2330641&page=2

George:

Also known as "Pulling a George", a George is a remark or response made
to a situation or question posed, immediately following an almost
identical statement made by another member of a group. The normal
timeframe for "Pulling a George" is up to 30 seconds after the statement
is made. ...

"Was that Pat Tillman?" ..."Yeah it was"
(The George) "Holy shit! Was that Pat Tillman?!"

"Oh look that guy went to Texas."
(The George) "Did that guy to to Texas?"

David Webber napsal(a):

Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]

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Feb 1, 2008, 3:30:00 PM2/1/08
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My point here would be to keep one eye on thigs such as
- mechanical turd: real humans who answers questions via some
proxy service that uses the newsgroups as the brain
- web-sites or posters's rakings: if people answers X times to questions
their trackable reputation increases
- plain AI exercise
as much as I enojoy participating at forums and discussions,
I'd also like not to be used for other purposes other than helping
real people with real problems

--

--
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Use of any included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm


"Ondrej Spanel" <OndrejSp...@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:ehk3isKZ...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...

Giovanni Dicanio

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Feb 1, 2008, 7:10:37 PM2/1/08
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I tend to agree with Ivan about George.

In a recent post of him (subject "IUnknown"), I on purpose answered in a way
that I think an AI engine would have difficult to reply, and in fact there
was no reply (moreover, I modified my name using 0 instead of "o", to check
if in a reply the automatic AI engine would have put the correct name or the
modified name with 0).

Giovanni

"Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]" <ivan...@online.microsoft.com> ha scritto nel
messaggio news:uC884ERZ...@TK2MSFTNGP05.phx.gbl...

Giovanni Dicanio

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Feb 1, 2008, 7:11:25 PM2/1/08
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"Brian Muth" <bm...@mvps.org> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ujenRtEZ...@TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl...

> Of course, there is the emotional response of dismay about possibly being
> duped. It reminds me of a Eureka moment when I was five years old looking
> at my stuffed animals.

Very good psychological analysis :)

Giovanni


Cholo Lennon

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Feb 2, 2008, 12:44:37 AM2/2/08
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Very insteresting... now, after reading all posts, I'm not sure about if
George is a real person. Anyway, how about this reply posted on 01/29/2008
in this newsgroup?

(check posts #17 & #18)
http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.vc.language/browse_frm/thread/64e4e47bcb2b40d/36036efe651b695f?lnk=gst&q=strange+grammar#36036efe651b695f

I have to say that this is the 1st time that George answers about his
'multipostings'. Is it the same George?

Regards

--
Cholo Lennon
Bs.As.
ARG


"Giovanni Dicanio" <giovanni...@invalid.com> escribió en el mensaje
news:uSuYnATZ...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

Giovanni Dicanio

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Feb 2, 2008, 6:03:41 AM2/2/08
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"Cholo Lennon" <cholo...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:uGUGz6VZ...@TK2MSFTNGP02.phx.gbl...

> Very insteresting... now, after reading all posts, I'm not sure about if
> George is a real person.

I must correct myself: I've just read that George has replyied to my post
(thread "IUnknown") in a way that I believe an AI engine could not be able
to do.

So, I think he is a real person.

Giovanni

Tom Widmer [VC++ MVP]

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Feb 8, 2008, 7:40:39 AM2/8/08
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David Webber wrote:
>
> "Ivan Brugiolo [MSFT]" <ivan...@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:OPUYcw%23YIH...@TK2MSFTNGP03.phx.gbl...
>
>> there is reasonable evidence that the postings from
>> Geo...@discussions.microsoft.com are from some sort of BOT
>
> Can we count the name George (previously the standard name for the
> autopilot in aircraft) as supporting evidence? If so he clearly isn't
> trying to deceive anyone. :-)

If he's a bot, then as far as I'm concerned he's passed the Turing Test!
Isn't there a large prize for that? George's creator, please reveal
yourself to collect your money!

Tom

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