Direct3D Mobile devices anywhere?

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Plutt@discussions.microsoft.com Pelle Plutt

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Nov 26, 2007, 11:14:02 AM11/26/07
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I've been trying to find a single device that supports hardware-accelerated
Direct3D Mobile, but all I've found is half-baked software-only
implementations.
Could someone please shed some light on how I can find Mobile 5 or 6 devices
that support this.

/Per

Rambalac

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Nov 26, 2007, 11:38:13 PM11/26/07
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I would want to know too.
My PDA even having NVidia 5500 cannot do hardware rasterization by d3dspec.
Actually it cant even do that OpenGL ES, neither 2.0 nor 1.0

Plutt@discussions.microsoft.com Pelle Plutt

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Nov 27, 2007, 12:56:00 AM11/27/07
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Just to show that hw-accelerated 3D is alive and kicking outside of the
Microsoft world - here's a link to some benchmarks for (mostly Symbian)
OpenGL ES smartphones:

http://www.glbenchmark.com/result.jsp

The Dell Axim x51v is listed there as well but last I checked the Dell store
I couldn't find a single Axim device...

/P

Don Crouch

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Nov 27, 2007, 8:26:00 PM11/27/07
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The only device that I'm aware of is the Dell Axim X51v. It has an Intel
2700G (PowerVR MBX) inside and a D3DM driver.

The following website tracks graphics accelerated mobile devices and might
be of some help: http://mobile.sdsc.edu/devices.html


Rambalac

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Nov 29, 2007, 2:49:01 AM11/29/07
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Problems is most of devices having chipset with 3d hardware acceleration have
no full drivers to use that acceleration. For example, most of devices with
NVidia 3d chips, 4800 and 5500, cant execute 3d gamese that are using OpenGL
ES, showing some message about "missing component".

Pelle Plutt

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Dec 3, 2007, 3:52:03 PM12/3/07
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OK, unless I hear something more I'll take the lack of response from anyone
at MS as an acknowledgement that Direct3D Mobile is dead and I guess I'll
have to move to OpenGL ES on Symbian. Shame about all that energy invested
into a conceptually great technology for developers...

<ctacke/>

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Dec 3, 2007, 4:31:49 PM12/3/07
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And exactly what makes you think the D3DMobile guys at Microsoft would be
reading this group? This is a public newsgroup, not required reading for MS
employees.

Implementation of D3DM is not done by Microsoft for any device. They
provide the core implementation and then expose the API and interface to the
OAL, but it's up to the OEMs to actually include and implement it in their
platforms if they wish. The fact that it's missing on many devices tells me
that the OEMs haven't had much call or pushback from customers asking for it
and so they spend their engineering efforts doing other things than adding
D3DM support.

Oh wait, I forgot - all problems, either real or just perceived, with
anything that is based on a Microsoft technology is automatically
Microsoft's fault.


--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com


"Pelle Plutt" <Pelle...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:E09A7235-88F4-4695...@microsoft.com...

Pelle Plutt

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Dec 4, 2007, 6:50:00 AM12/4/07
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"<ctacke/>" wrote:

> And exactly what makes you think the D3DMobile guys at Microsoft would be
> reading this group? This is a public newsgroup, not required reading for MS
> employees.

OK, so how did I come to the conclusion that D3DMobile is on hiatus?

1) Srikanth Bogadapati (MS) says in the MSDN Forum Smart Device Development
/Smart Devices Native C++ Development in the sticky post "Where to post
Windows Mobile API , SDK , Active sync , Compilers , device programing
queries" that "Windows Mobile API questions (should be posted to)
microsoft.public.pocketpc.developer".

2) The microsoft.public usenet groups are monitored by MS; that's part of
the "Universal subscription [now renamed]" support deal - yes I know based on
sender email but nevertheless.

3) There are no current Windows Mobile devices to be found - the last one
(Dell Axim 51v) seems to be from 2005 and cannot be found in the Dell store
in my country.

4) The last Channel9 video (a way to gauge whether a technology is "hot")
regarding D3DMobile is from 2006.

5) Forum non-activity indicates that noone is doing anything interesting
with D3DM.

Of course it may just be a sleeping beauty - maybe we'll see great drivers
for great hardware in e.g. next gen HTC phones - but it sure don't look like
it's about to happen...

It's not like I *like* developing on Symbian 9.x+Open GL ES (15 years back
in productivity). Then again, the iPhone is supposed to have Open GL ES as
well and maybe that market will be great once the SDK arrives...

...

And why aren't the device manufacturers present at forums like this to
promote developing software for their devices. Coming from a desktop
background I surely don't understand this...

/P

<ctacke/>

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Dec 4, 2007, 11:38:05 AM12/4/07
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> 2) The microsoft.public usenet groups are monitored by MS; that's part of
> the "Universal subscription [now renamed]" support deal - yes I know based
> on
> sender email but nevertheless.

"Monitored" yes, but I find your mileage may vary. Having been reading and
posting here for several years now I pretty much know who in Redmond is
actually reading and replying to posts, and I don't think I've seen anyone
that knows much about D3DM ever post here. I've seen some in the PB group,
but that's always questions on how to implement it in the OAL.

> 3) There are no current Windows Mobile devices to be found - the last one
> (Dell Axim 51v) seems to be from 2005 and cannot be found in the Dell
> store
> in my country.

Agreed and it's unfortunate. It is a nice technology and one would think
that OEMs would implement it. All of the plumbing is there in Platform
Builder - it simply requires that they write the OAL pieces to allow the OS
to talk to their hardware through a D3DM interface. Evidently no OEMs seem
to feel it's worth the time.

> 4) The last Channel9 video (a way to gauge whether a technology is "hot")
> regarding D3DMobile is from 2006.

But does that simply mean it's no longer new and they have other, newer
stuff to talk about? Also they tend to talk about cool stuff people do with
a technology - if no OEM supports D3DM then no one can do cool stuff with
it, so no one talks about it, which may in turn lead OEMs to decide no one
wants it and to therefore not implement it. A detremental circle.

> 5) Forum non-activity indicates that noone is doing anything interesting
> with D3DM.

Again, since there are no devices that support it, it's hard to do anything
with it.

> Of course it may just be a sleeping beauty - maybe we'll see great drivers
> for great hardware in e.g. next gen HTC phones - but it sure don't look
> like
> it's about to happen...

We can only hope, but you're probably right.

> And why aren't the device manufacturers present at forums like this to
> promote developing software for their devices. Coming from a desktop
> background I surely don't understand this...

Because, generally speaking, the OEMs are idiots and are out of touch with
the developer community. No idea how to change that though.

Don Crouch

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Dec 4, 2007, 5:30:02 PM12/4/07
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Hey guys,

I work on Direct3D Mobile at MS and try to answer every D3DM-related
question that is posted in these public newsgroups. I attempted to answer
the original question in this post as best that I'm able to, however I'm a
software engineer and as such, don't follow marketing info that tracks which
devices ship with a particular driver once they end up in the retail channel.
However, if during the course of your development, you have a technical
question about the D3DM API or what it takes to write a D3DM driver, I'm the
guy who can certainly answer your questions.

Regarding D3DM drivers, while Windows Mobile requires that there be a
working D3DM driver on the device, it's up to an OEM whether they want to
include a software driver vs. a driver for whatever 3D hardware might be on
the device. Unfortunately, most have chosen to take the easy way out and
simply drop a known working software driver on the device.

Looking ahead, I'm not at liberty to mention any specifics, but we're
currently working with a number of 3D silicon vendors that are developing
D3DM drivers for their chipsets. We've also recently developed a D3DM
software driver in-house that OEMs can use on their devices that don't have
3D hardware, so that there won't be a plethora of dodgy software rasterizers
out there that developers such as yourself would have to contend with.

We're well aware of the shortcomings that you have mentioned and are making
it easier for OEMs to "do the right thing", but in the end whatever driver
actually ends up on the device is still going to be up to the individual OEM.

I hope that clears things up a bit.


Don Crouch
Senior Software Design Engineer
Windows Devices Core Graphics
Microsoft Corporation

<ctacke/>

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Dec 4, 2007, 5:38:51 PM12/4/07
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Wohoo! Thanks Don. Your name wasn't familiar which is why it passed by.

Thanks for the clarification. Providing a D3DM software driver in the box
will definitely make it easier for OEMs to not just drop in the VGAFLAT
driver and move on, and we applaud the move. Working with silicon vendors
will hopefully yield even better results and help the OEMs to implement
decent accelerated drivers with a low threshold of pain.

I think my long-winded point was pretty much the same. Microsoft can lead
the OEM horse to water, so to speak, but you still can't make them drink.
Many people don't understand that.


--

Chris Tacke, eMVP
Join the Embedded Developer Community
http://community.opennetcf.com


"Don Crouch" <DonC...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
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Phred

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Dec 18, 2007, 12:49:04 PM12/18/07
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I'm glad to see thre is some action on D3D mobile. It has such good
potential. At the company where I work, I'm the sole Windows Mobile
developer and have been playing with D3D alot lately. I found out
that there are some devices that have a very solid hardware rasterizer
in place (Motorola Q9) while others DO have 3D hardware the driver
implementation is a little.... shotty. HTC Touch is a perfect
example. If you read the specs, it has a 3D harware on board and
Direct3D does seem to partially work on it... but thats just it....
PARTIALLY. IT's so annoying! Hopefully in a generation this will be
cleared up and we can start making some kick ass 3D apps for these
phones!

On Dec 4, 5:38 pm, "<ctacke/>" <ctacke[at]opennetcf[dot]com> wrote:
> Wohoo! Thanks Don. Your name wasn't familiar which is why it passed by.
>
> Thanks for the clarification. Providing a D3DM software driver in the box
> will definitely make it easier for OEMs to not just drop in the VGAFLAT
> driver and move on, and we applaud the move. Working with silicon vendors
> will hopefully yield even better results and help the OEMs to implement
> decent accelerated drivers with a low threshold of pain.
>
> I think my long-winded point was pretty much the same. Microsoft can lead
> the OEM horse to water, so to speak, but you still can't make them drink.
> Many people don't understand that.
>
> --
>
> Chris Tacke, eMVP
> Join the Embedded Developer Communityhttp://community.opennetcf.com
>

> "Don Crouch" <DonCro...@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message

> > Microsoft Corporation- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Rambalac

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Feb 14, 2008, 1:05:00 AM2/14/08
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Nothing changed for that time, even became worse.
MS can make them drink, as i head to use WM OEMs should have licence from MS.
OK, Is it so hard to stop giving licence for OEMs without agreement to
implement all features for that future divice's hardware? Then OEMs will not
not use stupid chips from stupid companies like NVidia and Qualcom who dont
supply there hardware with drivers for all features or at least info how to
implement them. As example, NVidia has neither sutable driver for WM nor
documentation for developers. Most devices with NVidia chips cannot use their
"super-duper" OpenGLES neither 2.0 nor even 1.0.
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