RGB values

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Bill Reed

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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As usual, MS has seen fit to keep RGB values a secret. Just once, I would
like to search on the MSD website under a keyword, like RGB, and find a
comprehensive list of (in this case) colors and their values. Can anyone
point me to an on-line resource for these values? Also, I understand that
many of these values actually map to more primary colors in practice. What I
am trying to do is to re-color the borders to default grey after setting the
interior color to white (255, 255, 255). TIA

Tom Ogilvy

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Bill,
Since there are in excess of 16 million colors in RGB, I doubt that each one
has a name. Even if there were names for each, and they were limited to an
average of 5 characters (pretty unlikely), the resulting text file would be
82 MB just to list the names and not the values.

colorindex=15 seemed to be a pretty close match on my machine.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy


"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Myrna Larson

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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On Tue, 9 May 2000 13:01:17 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>As usual, MS has seen fit to keep RGB values a secret. Just once, I would
>like to search on the MSD website under a keyword, like RGB, and find a
>comprehensive list of (in this case) colors and their values. Can anyone
>point me to an on-line resource for these values? Also, I understand that
>many of these values actually map to more primary colors in practice. What I
>am trying to do is to re-color the borders to default grey after setting the
>interior color to white (255, 255, 255). TIA

Do you mean the RGB values for the 56 colors you see on the
Tools/Options/Color tab?

They aren't fixed. The user can redefine the color palette for each workbook,
and in doing so, he can select a color from the "Standard" tab or he can
create a new one on the "Custom" tab.

You can get the numbers this way: go to Tools/Option/Color. Select a color
that's close to what you want, then click Modify. On the next dialog, click
the Custom tab. You'll see the values for the color you have selected. For

In fiddling with this now, I selected the color that's described as Gray -
25%. To my eye, it seems to be the same as the color of the default gridlines.
The RGB values are 192, 192, and 192, so the following code should be pretty
close to what you want.

With Selection
.Interior.Color = RGB(255, 255, 255)
.BorderAround Weight:=xlThin, Color:=RGB(192, 192, 192)
End With


Chip Pearson

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Bill,

Given that there are some 16 million RGB colors, it would be one hell of a
list. (Assuming that each had a name, the list would be larger than the New
York City white pages!). However, there are some rather simple VBA
procedure you can may find useful. If you already know the Red, Green and
Blue values, use

C = RGB(r,g,b)

to return the long color value.

If you know the ColorIndex number (between 1 and 56) of the color you want,
use

C = ThisWorkbook.Colors(Ndx)

to return the long color value, where Ndx is the color index number.

If you want to break a long color value into its red, green, and blue
components, use

Sub ColorToRGB(ByVal Color As Long, ByRef Red As Integer, _
ByRef Green As Integer, ByRef Blue As Integer)
Red = (Color And RGB(255, 0, 0))
Green = (Color And RGB(0, 255, 0)) / 256&
Blue = (Color And RGB(0, 0, 255)) / (256& ^ 2)
End Sub

This will return Integer values into Red, Green, and Blue representing those
particular values. This is essentially the *inverse* of the built-in RGB
function.

You could use it in a simple little macro like

Dim R As Integer, G As Integer, B As Integer
Dim C As Long
C = RGB(43, 123, 224)
ColorToRGB C, R, G, B
Debug.Print "Red: " & R & vbCrLf & "Green: " & G & vbCrLf & "Blue: " & B


If you already know long color value, and want to find the *closest*
ColorIndex number (with 16 million RGB values and 56 ColorIndex values, it
is quite unlikely that you'll get an exact match), use

Function RGBToColorIndex(RGBColor As Long, WB As Workbook) As Integer
'
' Returns the ColorIndex closest to the specified RGB color, based on the
' color pallet of the specified workbook.
'
Dim MaxDiff As Long
Dim Ndx As Integer
Dim ReturnNdx As Integer
Dim TheWB As Workbook

MaxDiff = MAX_RGB ' = 16777215

For Ndx = MIN_INDEX To MAX_INDEX
If Abs(TheWB.Colors(Ndx) - RGBColor) < MaxDiff Then
MaxDiff = Abs(TheWB.Colors(Ndx) - RGBColor)
ReturnNdx = Ndx
End If
Next Ndx

RGBToColorIndex = ReturnNdx

End Function

If you know the vb keyword for the color (e.g. vbRed or vbCyan), simply type
that into the Immediate window to get the long color value
?vbCyan

Then, if you need to get the red, green, blue components, use the code
above.

Remember, RGB values are not an MS invention, and they are hardly "secret".
A color value is simply a Long Integer (2 words or 4 bytes, or 32 bits), in
which the left most byte is 0, the 2nd-left byte is the Blue value (0-255),
the 3rd-left byte is the Green value, and the right-most byte is the Red
value.

And if MS put the above VBA code on *their* web site, no one would ever
visit *my* web site or ask questions in the newsgroups, and we poor MVPs
would have nothing to do all day but do our real jobs (and we can let that
happen).

--
Cordially,
Chip Pearson
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Pearson Software Consulting Services
www.cpearson.com ch...@cpearson.com

"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Tom Ogilvy

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Using Chip's array of color tools, it appears that colorindex 15 equates to
RGB(192,192,192) that Myrna cites.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy
MVP Excel

"Tom Ogilvy" <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote in message
news:eBawywdu$GA....@cppssbbsa02.microsoft.com...


> Bill,
> Since there are in excess of 16 million colors in RGB, I doubt that each
one
> has a name. Even if there were names for each, and they were limited to an
> average of 5 characters (pretty unlikely), the resulting text file would
be
> 82 MB just to list the names and not the values.
>
> colorindex=15 seemed to be a pretty close match on my machine.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Ogilvy
>
>
>
>

David McRitchie

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Hi Bill,
If you want to see the default 56 colors, see my page
http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/colors.htm

There is information in the MS KB, specifically
XL: Sample Visual Basic Code to Create Color Index Table
http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/q149/1/70.asp
and in Excel HELP using the answer wizard. Change a color in
the color palette. You will see RGB colors in custom and in
Tools --> Options --> Color --> modify/customize
And in case you mess things up there is a [Reset] button.

HTH,
David McRitchie, Microsoft MVP - Excel (site changed 2000-04-15)
My Excel Macros: http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/excel.htm

Myrna Larson

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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On Tue, 9 May 2000 14:55:02 -0400, "Tom Ogilvy" <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil>
wrote:

>Using Chip's array of color tools, it appears that colorindex 15 equates to
>RGB(192,192,192) that Myrna cites.

I just discovered something interesting/strange.

I modified the color palette so that what was Gray-25% (index = 15) is now
red. Then I ran the following code.

Dim CI As Long
CI = 15
With ActiveCell.Interior
.ColorIndex = CI
Debug.Print .ColorIndex
Debug.Print Hex$(.Color)
End With
Debug.Print Hex$(ThisWorkbook.Colors(CI))

It prints 15, C0C0C0 and 33FF !!!!!

Then I ran the code a 2nd time. This time it printed 15, 33ff and 33ff.

Does anyone know what's going on here? Sounds like a bug to me!

Tom Ogilvy

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Myrna,
Excel 97 SR2, it reported correctly immediately for me.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy

Myrna Larson <myrna...@home.net> wrote in message
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Chip Pearson

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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> Excel 97 SR2, it reported correctly immediately for me.

As does Excel2000 (SR1) under Windows2000.


--
Cordially,
Chip Pearson
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Pearson Software Consulting Services
www.cpearson.com ch...@cpearson.com

"Tom Ogilvy" <twog...@email.msn.com> wrote in message
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Tom Ogilvy

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May 9, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/9/00
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Myrna,
Just a thought, but sure the focus in the immediate window hadn't been
repostioned to somewhere in the original printout prior to changing the
value - and thus you had the old data interspersed with the new. Just a
possibility. (although I admit it isn't obvious that it could produce the
results you report.)

Tom


Stormin' Norm

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Hi!

There is a British Standard set of names for a very large number of colours
and there may even be an ISO one. You might do a check and see if there's an
RGB listing for those.

If so, please report back with what you've found, it could be a very good
resource. Monitor and printing output would vary from the true RGB
definition but might get close enough.

Alternatively, start naming the 16 million colours and let me have them in
400 years time :)

Sees Ya!


"Tom Ogilvy" <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote in message
news:eBawywdu$GA....@cppssbbsa02.microsoft.com...
> Bill,
> Since there are in excess of 16 million colors in RGB, I doubt that each
one
> has a name. Even if there were names for each, and they were limited to an
> average of 5 characters (pretty unlikely), the resulting text file would
be
> 82 MB just to list the names and not the values.
>
> colorindex=15 seemed to be a pretty close match on my machine.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Ogilvy
>
>
>
>

Bill Reed

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Thank you one and all.
Although it is understandable that the astronomical numbers of possible
colors couldn't be listed, I don't think that it necessarily follows that
none of them should be listed. Certainly, MS could put a large number (i.e.,
256) of basic colors in a list and post it somewhere in the MSDN site, along
with the method for determining RGB values for any existing colors in a
workbook.

David McRitchie

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Hi Bill,
I believe there are names used by Netscape, by IE, and lots of
names by individuals. There are 16 basic names used from days
of Color monitors, which I believe preceded use of color monitors
on PC's. Even the names of the 8 most basic of 16 colors do not match
the 8 names that Excel uses. There are no standard names for even
256 colors. When one company tries to make a standard especially
one that contradicts other usage it causes big trouble. This is
probably why Excel names only 8 colors and not even 16.

Also colors would generally start at zero but Excel starts at 1, the
colors of the 8 or 16 are not defined in the same order. And the
naming of colors in Excel was done much later.

http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/colors.htm

I don't have a reference to a list of colors recognized by Netscape
because it has nothing to do with Excel.

Also keep in mind that the can change the 56 colors in your Excel
color palette.

Can you tell the difference between silver and gray (grey),
or between green and lime. Bad enough that they vary between
products. Color on your monitor may vary, can you calibrate it.

HTH,
David McRitchie, Microsoft MVP - Excel (site changed 2000-04-15)
My Excel Macros: http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/excel.htm

Bill Reed <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message ...

Tom Ogilvy

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Point well take Bill,
Here are some resources:

http://www.pageresource.com/html/hexcodes.htm
[18 color names and corresponding Hex codes]

http://www.sunyit.edu/~vankuyw/html-ref/color.html
Hex ColorChart
[A much more comprehensive list]


http://www.acslink.aone.net.au/internal/rgb.txt.html
http://www.silcom.com/counter/rgb.txt.html
http://www.websitecentral.com/supportnew/tips/colormapping.asp
http://www.vantek.net/counter/rgb.html <= with swatches
(see bottom of this paragraph for best URL)
RGB to Color Name Mapping
[This has groupings for :
Black; Blue; Brown; Gray; Green; Orange; Red; Violet; White; Yellow
Each has at least 20/usually more shades. (some a 100 or more)
Has both hex values and RGB tripletts]
[[This is a composite of MIT's Xconsortum red/green/blue (RGB) color
specifications, Xconsortum version 10.41, 1994. ]]
This page appeared on an uncountable number of sites - thus multiple URLs
This link has the color samples with the entries:
http://eies.njit.edu/~walsh/rgb.html


http://www.endprod.com/colors/invcol.htm
Hex / RGB / MS Access Color Values
(500 values - Hex - RGB Triplets - Swatches
Links to Other orders and utilities]

http://www.dtp-aus.com/colrname.htm
Colour Names

http://www.vu.msu.edu/pearls/colors.html
Color Names vs #RRGGBB format in HTML
[140 name equivalents - color samples as well]

http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/color/x11makerIE.htm
[Generates a table with names, swatches, RGB in hex
140 colors but can configure by name and number of columns
sort by name or hue]


http://www.stonehand.com/doc/spec/webcolor.html
Color Names for World Wide Web
[Interesting Article with some values/names]
Has this link at the bottom - text file with
RGB Triplets and Names from X11
http://www.cam.spyglass.com/doc/spec/X11-colors.txt
[Suitable for import]

http://pages.prodigy.net/adrian/colnmenf.htm
HTML COLORNAMES
[140 names, RGB Triplets, Hex, Swatches, Links]


http://fraser.cc/utilities/color.html
named web colors
[quote from page - no numbers]
This document serves no other purpose than to show the
named web colors and how they would appear as
a background with both black and white text,
as colored text on a white background,
as colored text on a black blackground.

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q170/7/81.ASP
XL: RGB Function May Map to Incorrect Color

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q112/0/61.asp
ACC: How to Get Red, Green, or Blue Components from RGB Value

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q86/4/46.ASP
Equivalent Values for Genigraphics Colors: RGB
[Maps some RGB combinations to color names]

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q190/1/04.ASP
PPT97: Equivalent Values for Genigraphics Colors: RGB

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q86/4/45.ASP
PPT: Equivalent Values for Genigraphics Colors: CMYK
[Related to the RBG articles above]

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q190/1/05.ASP
PPT97: Equivalent Values for Genigraphics Colors: CMYK

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q188/7/42.ASP
PPT98: Equivalent Values for Genigraphics Colors: CMYK

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q138/8/41.asp
PPT: Matching PowerPoint Colors to Colors in Other Programs
[ peripheral]

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q137/6/93.asp
PUB: Definitions of Color Terminology
[Nice description of various methods of coding colors]

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q178/8/32.ASP
PUB98: Definitions of Color Terminology\
[essentially same as previous article]

http://support.microsoft.com/support/kb/articles/Q212/6/77.ASP
PUB2000: Definitions of Color Terminology

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy
MVP Excel

"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Myrna Larson

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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On Tue, 9 May 2000 20:59:46 -0400, "Tom Ogilvy" <twog...@email.msn.com>
wrote:

I checked for that, but the active cell didn't change -- it was still the red
one.


Bill Reed

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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David,

What I had in mind would be more like what you pointed me to on your
website. I don't think the resource would be the ultimate tool for graphics
designers, only that it would provide programmers with a handful of colors
to work with. Color names are of little or no consequence. They could even
be left out of the table. If I chose to use one of several shades of green,
I could just call it green for the purposes of my program. I wasn't thinking
in terms of universal nomenclature. My beef is that MS doesn't even offer a
toe-hold for the RGB function.

Bill

Myrna Larson

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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On Wed, 10 May 2000 11:25:16 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Certainly, MS could put a large number (i.e.,


>256) of basic colors in a list and post it somewhere in the MSDN site

How are you going to name the colors? Do you have names for those colors on
the standard palette where the tool tip (XL2000) just shows "color scheme"?

As I already mentioned, the user can change any of the colors on the current
palette, presumably to any one of those 65 million colors. So how are you
going to define your "basic colors"? A "canned" list may have no relevance to
the workbook you are working with.

>with the method for determining RGB values for any existing colors in a
>workbook.

They have documented the Colors, ColorIndex, and Color methods/properties, and
I showed how to implement that in the code I posted.

You can generate your own list of the colors on the palette for the current
workbook very simply:

Sub GetColors()
For i = 1 To 56
Debug.Print Hex$(ThisWorkbook.Colors(i))
Next i
End Sub

Bill Reed

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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Please see my response to David McRitchie
I don't much care about the names. I would have appreciated a small palette
with corresponding RGB values.
If I was experienced enough to already be familiar with the suggestions you
made, I never would have had to ask the question to begin with. It is a
frustration similar to driving to a place you've never been and asking for
directions to a specific address. More often than not, the local resident
will leave out important bits of information with the assumption that "Oh,
everybody knows that." If I knew "that", I would never have had to ask to
begin with. The MSDN site should not assume a computer science degree or 5+
years programming experience. Even experienced programmers are not
experienced in everything. I would hope to discover more and more as I
continue my career.

Bill

"Myrna Larson" <myrna...@home.net> wrote in message

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Chip Pearson

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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> My beef is that MS doesn't even offer a
> toe-hold for the RGB function.

Actually, MS offers far more than a "toe-hold" for RGB. A quick search on
MSDN pulled up a few hundred articles. Not only is that a "toe-hold", its a
hold that goes up past your knee and thigh until it is holding your RGBs in
its icy hands.

Color is a very simple thing, as far a we mere humans are concerned. Red is
red and green is green. But computers work exclusively in the realm of
numbers, and there is no "green" to a computer. There is only 65280 and
many a few tens of thousands of numbers more of less in the same range.

Color *was* simple to computers back in the days of black-and-white monitor,
a bit less simple with 16 color monitors. Back then, you simply said "X has
color 12". You knew what those colors were off the top of your head. If
you prefer this approach, the QBColor function is still available, after all
these years. Pass in a number between 1 and 16, and you'll get the RGB
value for that color.

But if you want want to work with 32-bit colors, and have the ability to
display damn near any imaginable color, then you have to expect that you'll
need to learn just a bit about how colors in a computer work.


--
Cordially,
Chip Pearson
Microsoft MVP - Excel
Pearson Software Consulting Services
www.cpearson.com ch...@cpearson.com

"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Myrna Larson

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May 10, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/10/00
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On Wed, 10 May 2000 15:56:31 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Please see my response to David McRitchie

I suggest you spend a bit more time with the VBA help system. I thing it has
all of the answers to your problems. Search for "Color".

>I would have appreciated a small palette with corresponding RGB values.

Again, such a palette may have no relevance at all to *your* situation.

Bill Reed

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May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
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I had already spent a substantial amount of time on the searches suggested by both you and Chip Pearson before posting my question to the newsgroup. Unfortunately, most of the KB and VBA Help articles I found would give me 1 RGB value at a time. For instance:

"This example sets the color of the second shape in the active document to gray.

ActiveDocument.Shapes(2).Fill.ForeColor.RGB = RGB(128, 128, 128)" or 

"This example sets the gridline color in the active window in Book1.xls to red.

Workbooks("BOOK1.XLS").Worksheets("Sheet1").Activate
ActiveWindow.GridlineColor = RGB(255,0,0)"

(I just stumbled across an article on Genigraphics that includes a table without color samples. Almost what I was looking for. I didn't look at it, because my question had nothing to do with Genigraphics. In any event, without color samples, it is pretty much useless to me.)

But what I would have hoped for would be a hyperlink in all of these articles (RGB Decimal Values)

that would send me to something resembling http://home.flash.net/~drj2142/pages/rgbdec.html. It would have saved me hours of frustration and this whole conversation would have been unnecessary.

I just expect a company with the collective expertise of MS to do an exemplary (not just ok) job of employing technology such as hypertext. If nothing else, an article such as the webpage above should exist somewhere on the KB site, and it should turn up with a rank of 100% in a search for "RGB". It should be unnecessary to spend hours looking for simple stuff and then wasting your guys time in the newsgroup helping me with such basic information. The inadequacies of the KB make it look like a sort of afterthought, or data dump, where articles are logged in, given a number, and thereafter are connected only by the vagueries of text searches.

"Myrna Larson" <myrna...@home.net> wrote in message news:j6tjhsg5qdrtr8rlq...@4ax.com...

Myrna Larson

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May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
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On Thu, 11 May 2000 09:39:20 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>I had already spent a substantial amount of time on the searches suggested by


both you and Chip Pearson before posting my question to the newsgroup.
Unfortunately, most of the KB and VBA Help articles I found would give me 1

RGB value at a time. .... hyperlink to .... would have saved me hours of


frustration and this whole conversation would have been unnecessary.

I'm sorry you spent so much time on this.

I didn't bother searching. I just set the interior of a block of cells to
white (which is what you were doing) then went to format, borders, and tried
the lightest 2 shades of gray for the borders, then picked the one that
appeared to be the same color as the adjacent gridlines. Then I got the color
of the borders of that cell with a single statement in the Immediate window.

It took about 1 minute. That's a common experience for me -- a bit of
experimentation is much faster than digging through the Help files or
searching the internet.

You also mentioned that all colors can't be displayed -- they are remapped to
something "close". The following code shows that, with my palette, there are
only 7 shades of gray possible, and what their RGB and color indices are.

Sub ShowGrays()
Worksheets(1).Activate

For i = 1 To 255
ActiveSheet.Cells(i, 1).Interior.Color = RGB(i, i, i)
Next i

For i = 1 To 255
ActiveSheet.Cells(i, 2).Value = Hex$(Cells(i, 1).Interior.Color)
ActiveSheet.Cells(i, 3).Value = Cells(i, 1).Interior.ColorIndex
Next i
End Sub


David McRitchie

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May 11, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/11/00
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Hi Bill,
Excel only offers a choice of 56 colors. If you don't like the
choice of colors one generally goes to the menu to change a color.
Tools ---> Options --> Color Tab --> select a color block to change
then [Modify] and click cursor on in the color area and move the
slider.

No need to have a color chart because you make up your own
preference. However if you know the RGB color you can use it.

I imagine Excel is limited to 56 colors because 64 - 8 chart colors is
56. Limitation because it is a formatting attribute and each combination
of formatting attributes is stored in your workbook as
a combination which saves space. So two cells with same attributes
do not repeat everything. As was already pointed out in a previous
post you could not possibly have names for all of the RGB possibilities,
it would also be impossible to store a spreadsheet with all of the
RBG colors. (64 is 2^6, so 6 bits are used)

HTML does not impose a 56 color limit, but I think you are looking for colors
in Excel and not just a color chart. (thanks for updated link to Doug's
chart)

RGB Hex Triplet Color Chart by Douglas R. Jacobson
http://www.flash.net/~drj2142/rgb.html

Jack Wilson's HTML version of the above loads faster than
using .gif files.
http://www.mta.ca/comment/wwwcon/hexchart.html

and my page on color is
http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/colors.htm

David McRitchie, Microsoft MVP - Excel (site changed 2000-04-15)
My Excel Macros: http://www.geocities.com/davemcritchie/excel/excel.htm

Myrna Larson <myrna...@home.net> wrote in message
news:q46mhskuve3obhhcc...@4ax.com...


> On Thu, 11 May 2000 09:39:20 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >I had already spent a substantial amount of time on the searches suggested by
> both you and Chip Pearson before posting my question to the newsgroup.
> Unfortunately, most of the KB and VBA Help articles I found would give me 1

> RGB value at a time. .... hyperlink to .... would have saved me hours of


> frustration and this whole conversation would have been unnecessary.
>

Tom Ogilvy

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Bill,

Are you just ignoring all the links I provided for you or is it just more
fun arguing. I only ask because I don't know if you are missing them or it
is just a personality thing - it took a bit of time to find them, sort out
what looked good and make comments. I would hate my efforts to just be
wasted if you newreader isn't showing my post, but then again, if you are
just blowing them off, I would like to know that as well so I know where to
focus my efforts in the future.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy

"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:#prZt60u$GA.193@cppssbbsa03...

Stormin' Norm

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Hi Tom!

There is no way that your efforts were wasted! I'm certain that many, like
me, have saved your posting for reference purposes as well as others in this
thread. Consolidated references like that can save the LVP a lot of time!

They are a great resource on RGB and one post in particular got into my top
10.


"Tom Ogilvy" <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote in message

news:eu#4LvAv$GA.181@cppssbbsa03...


> Bill,
>
> Are you just ignoring all the links I provided for you or is it just more
> fun arguing. I only ask because I don't know if you are missing them or
it
> is just a personality thing - it took a bit of time to find them, sort out
> what looked good and make comments. I would hate my efforts to just be
> wasted if you newreader isn't showing my post, but then again, if you are
> just blowing them off, I would like to know that as well so I know where
to
> focus my efforts in the future.
>
> Regards,
> Tom Ogilvy
>
>
>
> "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:#prZt60u$GA.193@cppssbbsa03...

Bill Reed

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Tom,

Ditto Stormin' Norman.
My argument has nothing to do with the excellent responses I get in this
newsgroup. Nor does it have to do with the specifics of my current
frustration.It is just that the simple things that I am usually looking for
should not require posting to a newsgroup and using MVP resources. I usually
post only when I have exhausted the resources of my admittedly limited
imagination. By the time I post, I have probably spent an hour or much more
on frustrating attempts to get at the answer on my own or using the KB.
As stated in the Dave McRitchie thread above, I believe that such
fundamental info should be easier to come by. In other words, I wish MS
would get its KB database organized in a more normalized, relational way,
with hyperlinks to functions referenced in articles, detailing arguments for
the functions. As a customer and fan of MS, I don't think its a lot to ask
of a company with their expertise and resources.
For instance, in the article
below(http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?URL=/library/officedev/o
ff2000/ppprorgbx.htm):

"RGB Property Example

This example sets the background color for color scheme three in the active
presentation and then applies the color scheme to all slides in the
presentation that are based on the slide master.

With ActivePresentation
Set cs1 = .ColorSchemes(3)
cs1.Colors(ppBackground).RGB = RGB(128, 128, 0)
.SlideMaster.ColorScheme = cs1
End With"

Instead of merely formatting the text "RGB" as bold, why not make it
hypertext which references a page containing "soup to nuts" about "RGB",
including additional hperlinks to all the excellent types of information
provided by you guys in the responses to my original post? Had that been the
case, you would never have heard from me in this newsgroup (doesn't that
sound enticing?).

With sincerest gratitude,

Bill


Myrna Larson

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
On Fri, 12 May 2000 08:16:00 -0400, "Tom Ogilvy"
<Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote:

Twasn't all wasted, Tom. I kept it too!

Myrna Larson

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
On Fri, 12 May 2000 12:31:08 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

If you are dissatisfied with the XL Help or the MS web site, this isn't the
place to bitch. The people here don't work for MS. They are just other users,
like you. If you want your complaints to get to MS, you'll have to use the
facilities for feedback that they provide on the web site.

>It is just that the simple things that I am usually looking for

>should not require posting to a newsgroup and using MVP resources....I

Tom Ogilvy

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Bill,
Ok. I really wasn't looking for gratitude - just wanted to make sure it
wasn't lost in the shuffle/morass of postings since I think some of the
articles addressed some of your concerns - and I can relate to your
frustration of learn through trial and error - but then they (Microsoft) do
provide this forum and others to at least allow people to apply real human
intelligence/intuition into diagnosing a question and getting the
user/developer going in the right direction ... at least for the spade work
type problems that we all must cut our teeth on just getting to a functional
level of proficiency.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy

Tom Ogilvy

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Norm,
Thanks, glad you found it useful - with your demonstrated advanced financial
orientation/proficiency, I feel awed to have found one you consider a top
tenner <g>.

Regards,
Tom Ogilvy

"Stormin' Norm" <nha...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:f0TS4.26880$PL4.5...@ozemail.com.au...


> Hi Tom!
>
> There is no way that your efforts were wasted! I'm certain that many, like
> me, have saved your posting for reference purposes as well as others in
this
> thread. Consolidated references like that can save the LVP a lot of time!
>
> They are a great resource on RGB and one post in particular got into my
top
> 10.
>
>
> "Tom Ogilvy" <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote in message
> news:eu#4LvAv$GA.181@cppssbbsa03...
> > Bill,
> >
> > Are you just ignoring all the links I provided for you or is it just
more
> > fun arguing. I only ask because I don't know if you are missing them or
> it

> > is just a personality thing - it took a bit of time to find them, sort


out
> > what looked good and make comments. I would hate my efforts to just be
> > wasted if you newreader isn't showing my post, but then again, if you
are
> > just blowing them off, I would like to know that as well so I know where
> to
> > focus my efforts in the future.
> >

> > Regards,
> > Tom Ogilvy
> >
> >
> >
> > "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:#prZt60u$GA.193@cppssbbsa03...

Bill Reed

unread,
May 12, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/12/00
to
Tom,

In case my previous response to this post didn't make it clear, all of your
links (as well as those of all the other respondents to my post) have been
added to my Favorites/Excel folder in my browser. I didn't reference those
links in this thread because I was not posting to you. Thanks again. I'm
sure they will continue to be a powerful resource far into the future. I am
truly indebted to you and your colleagues.
If no one else is experiencing this kind of frustration, then I suppose I
will just have to "grimace" and bear it. But, the same scenario seems to
keep repeating itself and I feel guilty for having to impose on you folks
for basic info that should be more readily available.

My only beef is with the difficulty in getting at basic info independently,
not with the great advice I get in this newsgroup and on your websites. It's
only arguing if you disagree. Otherwise it's discourse. And, yes, it is more
fun to imagine how things could be different and express those thoughts than
to just put up with it. Forgive me for speaking my mind, but even after all
these years, I can't seem to stop myself! Please, feel free to ignore me! :)

Bill

Tushar Mehta

unread,
May 14, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/14/00
to
[This followup was posted to microsoft.public.excel.programming and a
email copy was sent to Tom Ogilvy <Thomas....@hqda.army.mil>.]

In <eu#4LvAv$GA.181@cppssbbsa03>, Tom Ogilvy
<Thomas....@hqda.army.mil> wrote


> Bill,
>
> Are you just ignoring all the links I provided for you or is it just more
> fun arguing. I only ask because I don't know if you are missing them or it
> is just a personality thing - it took a bit of time to find them, sort out
> what looked good and make comments. I would hate my efforts to just be
> wasted if you newreader isn't showing my post, but then again, if you are
> just blowing them off, I would like to know that as well so I know where to
> focus my efforts in the future.
>
> Regards,

Now that's what I call polite!

[snip]

--
Regards,

Tushar Mehta
www.tushar-mehta.com
--

Bill Reed

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to
Apparently, I've ruffled a few feathers. I am completely mystified by this,
but I apologize for any bruised egos or other body parts (as in "Pain in the
____"). I don't suppose I will ever get used to people taking a frustration
with a 3rd party or an impersonal question as a personal insult.
It would appear by the lengthy discussion that this is an area that benefits
from some illumination.
I am glad I was able to get the info I needed from all of you, but I still
believe it would behoove MS to provide easier access on their KB to the
kinds of lucid explanations of the RGB function I found on the links
provided by you all. If I'm the only one who sees this, it's not the first
time and I doubt it will be the last.

Bill

Bill Reed

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to
Originally posted on 5/12, but somehow didn't make the list.
"Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:...

> Tom,
>
> In case my previous response to this post didn't make it clear, all of
your
> links (as well as those of all the other respondents to my post) have been
> added to my Favorites/Excel folder in my browser. I didn't reference those
> links in this thread because I was not posting to you. Thanks again. I'm
> sure they will continue to be a powerful resource far into the future. I
am
> truly indebted to you and your colleagues.
> If no one else is experiencing this kind of frustration, then I suppose I
> will just have to "grimace" and bear it. But, the same scenario seems to
> keep repeating itself and I feel guilty for having to impose on you folks
> for basic info that should be more readily available.
>
> My only beef is with the difficulty in getting at basic info
independently,
> not with the great advice I get in this newsgroup and on your websites.
It's
> only arguing if you disagree. Otherwise it's discourse. And, yes, it is
more
> fun to imagine how things could be different and express those thoughts
than
> to just put up with it. If you can't beef about MSXL in the MSXL NG, then
>where can you? Forgive me for speaking my mind, but even after all

Myrna Larson

unread,
May 15, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/15/00
to
On Mon, 15 May 2000 14:27:48 -0400, "Bill Reed" <ragto...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Apparently, I've ruffled a few feathers. I am completely mystified by this,

As I said before, your comments seem to be directed at Microsoft. They won't
hear them here. Post them on their web site, PLEASE!!!!


Tushar Mehta

unread,
May 16, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/16/00
to
Ain't my feathers that are ruffled! Since I have been a silent observer
of this thread it would be hard for Bill [Reed] or anyone else to offend
me. I was absolutely struck by the tone of Tom [Ogilvy]'s posting and
responded to it. It was especially striking since, had I have been in
his shoes, my reaction would have been, shall we say, more forceful.

This isn't the first time someone has complained about MS's KB
organization -- and I suspect it extends even to those who are wizards
at extracting information from KB.

However, I don't believe MS monitors these NGs as a source of product
improvement. That is the point Myrna [Larson] is making. Whatever slim
chance one might have at getting MS to change / improve one of its
products, it is very very very doubtful that the process starts with a
posting to this NG!

--
Regards,

Tushar Mehta
www.tushar-mehta.com
--
In <uLoYXupv$GA....@cppssbbsa02.microsoft.com>, Bill Reed

<ragto...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Apparently, I've ruffled a few feathers. I am completely mystified by this,
> but I apologize for any bruised egos or other body parts (as in "Pain in the
> ____"). I don't suppose I will ever get used to people taking a frustration
> with a 3rd party or an impersonal question as a personal insult.
> It would appear by the lengthy discussion that this is an area that benefits
> from some illumination.
> I am glad I was able to get the info I needed from all of you, but I still
> believe it would behoove MS to provide easier access on their KB to the
> kinds of lucid explanations of the RGB function I found on the links
> provided by you all. If I'm the only one who sees this, it's not the first
> time and I doubt it will be the last.
>

> Bill
>
>
>

Bill Reed

unread,
May 17, 2000, 3:00:00 AM5/17/00
to
Tushar,

>It was especially striking since, had I have been in
> his shoes, my reaction would have been, shall we say, more forceful.

I still seem to be missing some important piece of information. Why would
someone feel compelled to respond with venom to an innocuous and innocent
question from someone whose only agenda is the relief of his ignorance? I
don't know how many more apologies I can think of in my efforts to smooth
things over.
If you find my complaints about the MS support options tiring (I'm still
mystified as to why you would find it personally insulting, and requiring a
personal insult in return), it would seem a simple matter to ignore them.
While Tom's original castigation is understandable (I'm new to NGs and
didn't observe the courtesy of individual acknowledgement for great advice),
egging someone on in a personal attack is not something most people would
find admirable.
In return for all the excellent technical advice I have received here, allow
me to offer some interpersonal advice. Before you react reflexively in
anger, ask yourself the question, "What would Bill Murray say in this
situation" .
Keep smiling!!

Bill

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