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Tom Roberts
Oct 9, 2024, 2:27:16 PM10/9/24
to Microsoft Money
I think I read earlier on this group that most people discourage putting the MNY file in the cloud, this for security reasons.
However, does anyone have experience putting their file in the cloud? I am wondering if there is an article describing the experience of putting the MNY file in the cloud. Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks
Bob Smiley
Oct 9, 2024, 2:40:20 PM10/9/24
to Microsoft Money
In the readme.htm file in the Money installed folder, #20 states:
20: Running Money With Data File on Network Share Not Recommended
If Money is running across a network share, and that share becomes unavailable, Money may not work correctly. Microsoft recommends that you keep both the Money file and the Money data file on a local drive instead of a remote network drive, mirrored share point, or offline folder.
You can keep Money backup files on a network share, but you should run Money from the drive where you keep the main Money file.
If Money is running across a network share, and that share becomes unavailable, Money may not work correctly. Microsoft recommends that you keep both the Money file and the Money data file on a local drive instead of a remote network drive, mirrored share point, or offline folder.
You can keep Money backup files on a network share, but you should run Money from the drive where you keep the main Money file.
Rahul Oza
Oct 9, 2024, 2:57:11 PM10/9/24
to Tom Roberts, Microsoft Money
By cloud do you mean something like Google Drive ?
I used to keep the money file on a drive folder mapped to google drive in the cloud. I faced a number of issues - sometimes money turns read only due to sync issues. at other times the sync kills my computer or sync process kills itself. I now have atleast two sets of folders on my local drive and none of them in sync with the cloud version !! I just manually upload the file to drive every now and then :)
So mostly issues with google drive and sync.
Regards,
Rahul
On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 at 19:27, Tom Roberts <tomandre...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I read earlier on this group that most people discourage putting the MNY file in the cloud, this for security reasons.However, does anyone have experience putting their file in the cloud? I am wondering if there is an article describing the experience of putting the MNY file in the cloud. Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks
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Cal Learner
Oct 9, 2024, 6:15:25 PM10/9/24
to Microsoft Money
You could program either your upon-exit or your scheduled backups (*.MBF) to go to the place that gets mirrored to the cloud, if you trust your cloud provider to not peek.
Dick Watson
Oct 10, 2024, 1:56:01 AM10/10/24
to Microsoft Money
Some comments on my decades of experience with this problem:
For many years, I stored a number of files I use and update weekly to daily on my desktop PC, and used Windows networking (network share) to update those files when using my laptop. Simplified, but not much, those files are Excel (.xls, .xlm, .xslsx, .xlsm), Access (.mdb/.accdb), and Money (.mny). The Excel files are the least problematic in this use because Excel doesn't write update back to the file store on the fly. If the ultimate File Save fails, well, it fails. You get notified, find a way forward and get on with it. Access and Money both write updates back to the file store as you go. The problem with this, in the network share scenario, is that it can leave the files with incomplete updates if, for some reason, the file sharing breaks while you are working with the file. This is a speculative problem, and, in stable environments, rare, but it does happen. I've had it happen and had to recover from it. I have an crazy complex set of backup approaches running so have never lost (much) data, just time and forced re-entry of this session's transactions or similar.
The other acute issue is that Money really does not like the same file being opened and edited from two instances of the app at the same time. E.g., open the file on desktop, do some stuff. get interrupted, walk away, come back later to laptop, forget file is already open on desktop, start Money and do some stuff in the same file from laptop. Money could have done things to detect and prevent or deal with this, but it doesn't. And, in my experience, this has a high probability of breaking the file, leading to Money crashes or "transaction cannot be entered" or similar file "corruption" symptoms. Very early on, in my network share days, I wrapped Money in a script that checked for presence of a lock file the script knew how to create and where to look for--same folder as the laptop .MNY. If no lock file, then create lock file, then, if not on the desktop, the script copied the .MNY file to local storage, then opened Money supplying the now-local copy of the file as a command line parameter. The script then waited around for Money to exit. When Money exited and returned flow of control to the script, it copied the .MNY file back to the network share if that's where it got it from, and, if all that was successful, it deleted the lock file and exited. I always open my Money file starting from this script, not double clicking the file or opening the Money app. This is something I have to have the discipline to do
As time went on, and Windows versions changed, this got increasingly problematic because Windows sleep/wake-on-LAN has gotten flakier and less reliable every time Microsoft--or OEM driver developers, I'm looking at you, Intel--touches Windows. This made it less reliable at being able to start Money on the laptop and actually get the file from the desktop. Or put it back there when done. The other issue was that travelling with the laptop implied manually making laptop-local copies of these active files before packing up the laptop, reverting to local store operation while travelling, then undoing all of this upon my return home.
The "cloud storage" platforms, and their installable Windows support, are all designed for this kind of use case, and to fix these kinds of problems. (Here I speak from familiarity with OneDrive, Google Drive, iCloud for Windows, and Synology Drive--Dropbox and others are broadly similar, but I wouldn't vouch for them as I have no experience.) They do this by keeping local and cloud copies of files synchronized, separate from whatever you and your apps do to the files. Money works on a local file. OneDrive makes sure to keep the local file synchronized with the cloud file. Money on a different machine, a laptop, say, gets the changes from the desktop into its local file, via the cloud, automagically.
I've been running with OneDrive storage of these common use files for two or three years now. (If you setup Windows, it encourages you, incessantly, to configure yourself for "backup to OneDrive" which is really it putting your user Documents, Pictures, etc., folders on OneDrive. I do still use the lockfile script to keep from simultaneous edits to the Money file. (I don't even know how OneDrive would handle syncing this case. The problem I address with the lockfile script only applies if you have multiple PCs you run Money and a given data file from.)
The only operational issue I have had is that OneDrive can take an inordinate amount of time to figure out it needs to synch files down from the cloud when a machine is awakened from sleep/power off. (Google Drive and iCloud seem to take seconds figuring out they need to sync, and getting on with it. OneDrive seems to take upwards of minutes.) The result is that if I forget that I, say, edited the Money file on the laptop last, and wake up the desktop, and quickly open Money, I may be editing an out-of-date file. When OneDrive wakes up, its "solution" to this is to create a second Money file with a -1 (or similar, I don't recall for sure) name. Now you have this morning's Money updates in one file and this afternoon's in the other. This can be a PITA to recover from when it happens.
The other two issues are a) OneDrive (or any of the others) storage is not free. I'm paying for Microsoft 365 Family, so I have a TB of OneDrive from that. So, storage cost is not a separate problem for me. b) The other issue, that many people will have differing views of, is the data security implications of storing your Money data file on someone else's server, subject to their security and snooping/data mining. I just accept these facts/risks as first world problems and a cost of modern life. I certainly understand why others feel adamantly different about this stuff. I've "gotten over it".
I have data in all four cloud storage solutions noted above for a variety of reasons. Of these, OneDrive has the most data and the most active data. Aside from the one gripe about OneDrive timeliness of sync on wakeup, I have found all four to be mature, stable, and reliable. If you want to go down this route, I would strongly recommend that you understand the setup options as they all have the ability to choose what files and folders to sync or not, and what files or folders should be always stored locally on a given client, or stored locally if frequently used, or not stored locally at all. Google Drive, in particular, has both a streaming--all files local--and a syncing--some files local--modality. It also has a preference for using a mapped drive letter for its root path unless you force it not to. (Mapped Drive letters are a terrible 1990's kludge.) I prefer how iCloud, OneDrive, and Synology Drive integrate with File Explorer.
For many years, I stored a number of files I use and update weekly to daily on my desktop PC, and used Windows networking (network share) to update those files when using my laptop. Simplified, but not much, those files are Excel (.xls, .xlm, .xslsx, .xlsm), Access (.mdb/.accdb), and Money (.mny). The Excel files are the least problematic in this use because Excel doesn't write update back to the file store on the fly. If the ultimate File Save fails, well, it fails. You get notified, find a way forward and get on with it. Access and Money both write updates back to the file store as you go. The problem with this, in the network share scenario, is that it can leave the files with incomplete updates if, for some reason, the file sharing breaks while you are working with the file. This is a speculative problem, and, in stable environments, rare, but it does happen. I've had it happen and had to recover from it. I have an crazy complex set of backup approaches running so have never lost (much) data, just time and forced re-entry of this session's transactions or similar.
The other acute issue is that Money really does not like the same file being opened and edited from two instances of the app at the same time. E.g., open the file on desktop, do some stuff. get interrupted, walk away, come back later to laptop, forget file is already open on desktop, start Money and do some stuff in the same file from laptop. Money could have done things to detect and prevent or deal with this, but it doesn't. And, in my experience, this has a high probability of breaking the file, leading to Money crashes or "transaction cannot be entered" or similar file "corruption" symptoms. Very early on, in my network share days, I wrapped Money in a script that checked for presence of a lock file the script knew how to create and where to look for--same folder as the laptop .MNY. If no lock file, then create lock file, then, if not on the desktop, the script copied the .MNY file to local storage, then opened Money supplying the now-local copy of the file as a command line parameter. The script then waited around for Money to exit. When Money exited and returned flow of control to the script, it copied the .MNY file back to the network share if that's where it got it from, and, if all that was successful, it deleted the lock file and exited. I always open my Money file starting from this script, not double clicking the file or opening the Money app. This is something I have to have the discipline to do
As time went on, and Windows versions changed, this got increasingly problematic because Windows sleep/wake-on-LAN has gotten flakier and less reliable every time Microsoft--or OEM driver developers, I'm looking at you, Intel--touches Windows. This made it less reliable at being able to start Money on the laptop and actually get the file from the desktop. Or put it back there when done. The other issue was that travelling with the laptop implied manually making laptop-local copies of these active files before packing up the laptop, reverting to local store operation while travelling, then undoing all of this upon my return home.
The "cloud storage" platforms, and their installable Windows support, are all designed for this kind of use case, and to fix these kinds of problems. (Here I speak from familiarity with OneDrive, Google Drive, iCloud for Windows, and Synology Drive--Dropbox and others are broadly similar, but I wouldn't vouch for them as I have no experience.) They do this by keeping local and cloud copies of files synchronized, separate from whatever you and your apps do to the files. Money works on a local file. OneDrive makes sure to keep the local file synchronized with the cloud file. Money on a different machine, a laptop, say, gets the changes from the desktop into its local file, via the cloud, automagically.
I've been running with OneDrive storage of these common use files for two or three years now. (If you setup Windows, it encourages you, incessantly, to configure yourself for "backup to OneDrive" which is really it putting your user Documents, Pictures, etc., folders on OneDrive. I do still use the lockfile script to keep from simultaneous edits to the Money file. (I don't even know how OneDrive would handle syncing this case. The problem I address with the lockfile script only applies if you have multiple PCs you run Money and a given data file from.)
The only operational issue I have had is that OneDrive can take an inordinate amount of time to figure out it needs to synch files down from the cloud when a machine is awakened from sleep/power off. (Google Drive and iCloud seem to take seconds figuring out they need to sync, and getting on with it. OneDrive seems to take upwards of minutes.) The result is that if I forget that I, say, edited the Money file on the laptop last, and wake up the desktop, and quickly open Money, I may be editing an out-of-date file. When OneDrive wakes up, its "solution" to this is to create a second Money file with a -1 (or similar, I don't recall for sure) name. Now you have this morning's Money updates in one file and this afternoon's in the other. This can be a PITA to recover from when it happens.
The other two issues are a) OneDrive (or any of the others) storage is not free. I'm paying for Microsoft 365 Family, so I have a TB of OneDrive from that. So, storage cost is not a separate problem for me. b) The other issue, that many people will have differing views of, is the data security implications of storing your Money data file on someone else's server, subject to their security and snooping/data mining. I just accept these facts/risks as first world problems and a cost of modern life. I certainly understand why others feel adamantly different about this stuff. I've "gotten over it".
I have data in all four cloud storage solutions noted above for a variety of reasons. Of these, OneDrive has the most data and the most active data. Aside from the one gripe about OneDrive timeliness of sync on wakeup, I have found all four to be mature, stable, and reliable. If you want to go down this route, I would strongly recommend that you understand the setup options as they all have the ability to choose what files and folders to sync or not, and what files or folders should be always stored locally on a given client, or stored locally if frequently used, or not stored locally at all. Google Drive, in particular, has both a streaming--all files local--and a syncing--some files local--modality. It also has a preference for using a mapped drive letter for its root path unless you force it not to. (Mapped Drive letters are a terrible 1990's kludge.) I prefer how iCloud, OneDrive, and Synology Drive integrate with File Explorer.
Sorry if this was long. It's a complex subject.
Dick
Dick Watson
Oct 10, 2024, 2:05:54 AM10/10/24
to Microsoft Money
Should have written:
…both a streaming--all files local--and a "mirroring"--some files local--modality…
Dick Watson
Oct 10, 2024, 2:14:06 AM10/10/24
to Microsoft Money
Sigh. I think I still got it backwards. They call one streaming and the other mirroring. If you set it up. make sure you understand what you set up.
Stephen Google
Oct 10, 2024, 3:19:39 AM10/10/24
to Microsoft Money
You could store the money file on OneDrive and configure it to keep a local copy of the file
Doris Tomlin
Oct 10, 2024, 9:48:21 AM10/10/24
to Microsoft Money
I started a thread earlier (Link to the thread:
when I inadvertently began an automated backup of nearly everything on my laptop to the Microsoft OneDrive cloud. It did cause my working MSMoney data file to reside in the cloud, and each transaction I entered seemed to write directly to the cloud.
When the cloud file was not available for whatever reason, a new .mny data file was created on the local machine with a file name that appended the name of the machine to the original filename. I assumed that when access to the cloud was restored, those two files would be automatically synced (I believe that is how Google Drive works) but that is NOT how the MS OneDrive cloud works. The work I did while not connected to the MS cloud did not show up in the cloud file, and because I assumed it would, I deleted the local file with the extended name. When I discovered my error I was happily able to recover the deleted file (available for recovery within 30 days) and the work I had done while not connected, but then I had to manually make sure that everything I had done in each version was also entered into the other version.
My fix for this was to move my working local MSMoney data file to the Downloads folder of my laptop, which is safely out of reach of the MS OneDrive sync to the cloud.
I do back up my MSMoney data file to an external drive AND to the MS OneDrive cloud from time to time. I trust the Microsoft cloud with sensitive data more than I trust Google Drive, based on conversions with a Microsoft employee whom I trust.
It took a LOOOONG time, on the order of two or three weeks, for my entire laptop contents to sync to the MS OneDrive cloud once it (inadvertently) got started. Once all the syncing was done, I was able to take some control of which files were stored both on the local laptop drive and in the cloud. I had been struggling with that during the long process of synchronization. I think a lot of the trouble I had with my MSMoney data file was because the synchronization was chugging along in the background while I tried to do other things, and nothing on my laptop was working well during that process. I think that if I tried to use a OneDrive cloud-based MSMoney data file now, it would probably work smoothly. I'm just not willing to risk it at this point.
Doris
On Wed, Oct 9, 2024, 2:27 PM Tom Roberts <tomandre...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I read earlier on this group that most people discourage putting the MNY file in the cloud, this for security reasons.However, does anyone have experience putting their file in the cloud? I am wondering if there is an article describing the experience of putting the MNY file in the cloud. Any assistance would be gratefully appreciated. Thanks
--
Tom Roberts
Oct 11, 2024, 2:03:18 PM10/11/24
to Dick Watson, Microsoft Money
Thank you so much everyone. I massively appreciate you sharing all of your experience on using the cloud for storing the MNY or backup files. The weight of experience in cloud usage is as I expected -- generally negative. Given some of the potential and actual data loss experienced I've decided to only store the backup file on the cloud.
Happy Thanksgiving to anyone celebrating turkey weekend (as my brother calls it) in Canada.
Thanks again.
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M B II
Oct 12, 2024, 9:57:52 AM10/12/24
to Microsoft Money
One thing I'll add onto this thread for concerns of cloud encryption. I've been using cryptomator to encrypt my cloud files that I consider sensitive (financial stuff). I've been using for about a year and seems to work acceptably. Any issues I've had seem to be around google sync, not cryptomator.
I'll describe how to use it and how it works as an overview:
- Have a folder on your cloud drive and set it to be always available offline. This is where you will put your files that will be encrypted.
- install Cryptomator. It will ask for a 'crypt' location to setup. Select the cloud drive folder you created in 1. Create a password.
- You can have multiple 'crypts' under different folders if necessary.
- Cryptomator will mount the location 1 as a driver letter on your PC. This drive is the unencrypted viewpoint.
- FYI, in cryptomator you can specify what drive letter to always use. I find this is best for my use case and for any shortcuts/links to use the crypt files.
- When I put a file into cryptomator, it immediately encrypts it in the folder created in 1 and my cloud sync software (google drive) syncs the new (or modified) file to the cloud.
- On another PC, I can have cryptomator open and see the new file pop up fairly immediately in the unencrypted drive letter for cryptomator.
- FYI, within the cloud software, I could share this encrypted folder from 1 to another person/user if desired and it allows me to share sensitive information fairly easily compared to other share methods.
This program has allowed me to share sensitive files with family w/o getting overly complicated. Envision sharing finances/files with a parent as you start becoming a power of attorney for them, or if you are teaching kids how to handle finances or sharing personal records, but they are out of the house at college. They aren't 'quite' as responsible enough to fully manage records just yet but you both want a way to share these details back and forth (vs just emailing something when asked).
Cal Learner
Oct 12, 2024, 12:40:02 PM10/12/24
to Microsoft Money
1.Tom: After re-thinking, I think the potential corruption problem with having your *.mny file in the cloud would be if two computers tried to access that file concurrently. Would OneDrive be confused by continually changes to the file? If not, that sounds like nothing bad should happen. From a speed point of view, I still think that having the *.mny file would be better.
2.
cryptomator sounds very interesting. I see that you can even assign a drive letter [
Vault Options -> Mounting -> Use assigned drive letter].
Tom Roberts
Oct 12, 2024, 12:53:53 PM10/12/24
to M B II, Microsoft Money
Thanks for introducing this interesting app.
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Tom Roberts
Oct 12, 2024, 1:11:04 PM10/12/24
to Cal Learner, Microsoft Money
Cal - yes, the software is interesting. I've got to re-think my purpose in having the mny file available from multiple locations, and whether a local area network would meet my needs. Thanks
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J Hoban
Oct 14, 2024, 11:37:43 AM10/14/24
to Microsoft Money
I always took “Running Money With Data File on Network Share Not Recommended” as a simple rule for unsophisticated users. I was tangentially aware of the pitfalls that a network enabled database tries to solve, the mitigation strategies, the need for backups and a robust merge tool for when things went wrong. So, for the past 20 years, my Money files have at first resided on a network mounted drive from a home server, and for about the last 8 years on OneDrive. In the early years, the network mounted drive kept me from taking my personal files out of the house on my laptop and provided 6 months’ worth of backups. I access Money from only one computer, and shutdown Money when I was done. I don’t recall having an issue with Money until using OneDrive.
With the convenience of OneDrive I accidentally access my Money files from two computers simultaneously, messy but not a disaster. As others have stated, OneDrive keeps a local copy of the files that you work on, once you close the file OneDrive uploads the modified file to the cloud. If you modify the same file on two computers, you essentially forked the file into two files. The first file that OneDrive uploads become the file of record. When the second computer attempts to upload its file it fails, and OneDrive saves the second file to its base name with the computer’s name appended to it, that is myMoneyComputer2.mny is created on Computer2 from MyMoney.mny, in MyMoney.mny’s directory, if I recall correctly. Nothing gets lost, but the file is forked; it’s left to you to merge the changes together. Unfortunately, opening a Money file causes a change to the file, so it is easy to fork the file; all I wanted to do was to quickly lookup a transaction. I am back to accessing a set of Money files from only one specific computer. If I dare to work from two computers again, I’ll implement Dick Watson’s locking script idea. Or maybe create a “read-only” script that copies the .mny file to a temp file and deletes it when I am done. Probably not, the need isn’t great.
Martin Cole
Oct 14, 2024, 12:08:48 PM10/14/24
to Microsoft Money, J Hoban
Just to add that I do the samething as J Hoban below only I have used the free allowance from DropBox for approx 15 years. Couple times a year I copy my complete drop box onto a external HD to 'put away' and also onto a stick drive. Ocasionally thinning it down to current and relevant files to keep within my 12gb limit.
My DropBox has all my other forms files data scanned or up loaded on it too
Has worked well, I always close Mny and the home and work computers where I accessed it.
My DropBox has all my other forms files data scanned or up loaded on it too
Has worked well, I always close Mny and the home and work computers where I accessed it.
Thanks to all for the forum discussions
Martin
Martin
Tom Roberts
Oct 14, 2024, 1:22:10 PM10/14/24
to M B II, Microsoft Money
MBII
I downloaded cryptomator. Does it have to be running for a file to be encrypted, ie. if cryptomator is 'off' then the Money backup file or MNY file will not be uploaded? It would seem that cryptomator should be called from a batch file that includes a call to open Money.
On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 6:57 AM M B II <mabro...@gmail.com> wrote:
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M B II
Oct 14, 2024, 8:21:02 PM10/14/24
to Microsoft Money
Yes it does need to be running and the 'crypt' needs to be unlocked. You can't see any of the files directly on the cloud drive, as they are encrypted within the google drive folder, thus you can't tell what anything is unless you run cryptomator and mount the vault as drive letter. This is somewhat similar to an encrypted file container like veracrypt or encrypted VHD in bitlocker, if anyone is familiar with those methods. For example, when I look in the cloud folder (NOT the mounted vault), I see a bunch of folders with names like udUEOkfeFEIkeiDII and file names like 0a0zBUI_BEpHjlnzHfQgGexoEEsw_.c9r.
Cryptomator has a way to Locate Encrypted Files/folders if needed, but it's a single selection, not a batch process.
Let me preface with, I am not associated with Cryptomator but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
Cryptomator has a way to Locate Encrypted Files/folders if needed, but it's a single selection, not a batch process.
Let me preface with, I am not associated with Cryptomator but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.
As an aside, cryptomator doesn't really do any activity unless you are interacting with the files in the vault. I am known to have cryptomator and MSMoney open for a week with multiple hibernation and sleep events occurring thru that week. I have not seen any issues with this usage case and I do not see the CPU churning while MSMoney is open. I've also not seen the encryption slow down the PC, even if large file/folder moves occur. The closest real issue I've had is if I close a file and then re-open it quickly before it had a chance to cloud sync...then sometimes there will be encrypted fragmented files. These are more of a nuisance as they don't affect the locally stored 'real' encrypted file, it's a fragment of the cloud software trying to upload that file to the cloud. It's been so long since the last time that was an issue, I can't recall what the issue actually was that made me even notice it (a few 0 byte files in a folder I used regularly). It may have simply been that I couldn't delete the 0 byte files and it bugged me enough to dig deeper into it to figure out how to get them deleted.
Jonathan Casiot
Oct 15, 2024, 5:47:19 AM10/15/24
to Microsoft Money
Just to add to the discussion here: MS Money files - .mny and .mbf - are encrypted using RC4 which has for a while now been regarded as insecure. Therefore any Money file that is stored in a location that could be compromised should really be protected with another layer of data encryption. Cryptomater is mentioned above, an alternative is the 7-Zip archiver which has support for AES-256 encryption and a pretty decent command line interface to allow for automation.
Jonathan.
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