Why one more thing?

[Abhideep Chakravarty]

Hi All,

We already have Spring and JEE. Why we are creating one more framework in Java space? All the YouTube videos I see about MicroProfile, they start with "JEE is slow". That might be the story of JEE under Oracle, but now like MicroProfile, we have JEE as a community driven effort. So we can say the reason "JEE is slow" can me omitted. And in that case:

1. Can JEE not handle microservice development?
2. Do we really need a separate stream like MicroProfile and Kumuluzee for microservice?
3. Does this also mean that tomorrow if someone comes up with a new architectectural style like microservice, we will again branch out like MicroProfile (MP)?
4. In the end MP is specification like JEE. Why cant it be part of JEE?
5. Why do we need to diverge the goodness? Why not converge?
6. In absence of MP, Payara Micro was doing a very nice job - a thin implementation.
7. Why not let all the specification be in JEE and implementation separated out, like it was till now?
8. Let everyone, including IBM, Oracle, JBoss give their implementation for the JEE (which includes the MP specification) specification?
9. Are we creating another Spring?
10. Why are we creating challenge for the consumers to select one out of two?
11. Why is the liberty of add one dependency and coding peacefully, being taken away?
12. The best part of JEE was that it is a standard. Why creating a separate standard?

I know I am late to ask the question while v.1.4 is about to get released. But its never late and we can always have community driven decision to merge the goodness of two.

Please forgive, if I stated something stupid.

Regards,

Abhideep

[James Roper]

So we can say the reason "JEE is slow" can me omitted.

Eventually, but not yet. Java EE is still in the process of being transferred from Oracle to Eclipse. We're still setting up the governance models for it. We still have to release Java EE 8. And only once all that's done, can we start to even think about innovating with anything new in Java EE. I don't know how long that will take, but I'm not holding my breath, I suspect Jakarta EE won't be able to seriously start doing anything new until next year. Should we sit and wait for then, or innovate now? We need to innovate now if we want Java to stay relevant, but that can't happen in Jakarta EE right now, MicroProfile is the only place that that can happen currently.

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[Mark Little]

+1

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[Abhideep Chakravarty]

Hi James,

Very well. We cant wait if we want the Java to be relevant and hence we needed to innovate and we did. The WHAT part was very true and needed. But HOW are we going to take it further will impact a lot.

Can we not merge what we have in MicroProfile in JEE 8 and bring in JEE 8.1 or something? Let JEE take time to work on something new in next year. But as we have or will have JEE as a community driven effort, do we have the thought that MicroProfile should eventually get merged with JEE.

We branched out with the reason you gave, but why cant we branch in when things are fine? Why creating a thing like Spring? 

You can not make Java relevant by leaving it behind (Technically, you are not making Java relevant, you are making JEE relevant). That's what Spring did and that's what MicroProfile is doing, unknowingly.

If not now, due to legal concerns or any other concerns, eventually, I feel MicroProfile should get merged with JEE. Am I the only one odd man out?

Regards,

Abhideep

On Wednesday, 18 April 2018 14:12:36 UTC+5:30, James Roper wrote:

So we can say the reason "JEE is slow" can me omitted.

Eventually, but not yet. Java EE is still in the process of being transferred from Oracle to Eclipse. We're still setting up the governance models for it. We still have to release Java EE 8. And only once all that's done, can we start to even think about innovating with anything new in Java EE. I don't know how long that will take, but I'm not holding my breath, I suspect Jakarta EE won't be able to seriously start doing anything new until next year. Should we sit and wait for then, or innovate now? We need to innovate now if we want Java to stay relevant, but that can't happen in Jakarta EE right now, MicroProfile is the only place that that can happen currently.

On 17 April 2018 at 22:46, Abhideep Chakravarty <abhideepc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi All,

We already have Spring and JEE. Why we are creating one more framework in Java space? All the YouTube videos I see about MicroProfile, they start with "JEE is slow". That might be the story of JEE under Oracle, but now like MicroProfile, we have JEE as a community driven effort. So we can say the reason "JEE is slow" can me omitted. And in that case:

1. Can JEE not handle microservice development?
2. Do we really need a separate stream like MicroProfile and Kumuluzee for microservice?
3. Does this also mean that tomorrow if someone comes up with a new architectectural style like microservice, we will again branch out like MicroProfile (MP)?
4. In the end MP is specification like JEE. Why cant it be part of JEE?
5. Why do we need to diverge the goodness? Why not converge?
6. In absence of MP, Payara Micro was doing a very nice job - a thin implementation.
7. Why not let all the specification be in JEE and implementation separated out, like it was till now?
8. Let everyone, including IBM, Oracle, JBoss give their implementation for the JEE (which includes the MP specification) specification?
9. Are we creating another Spring?
10. Why are we creating challenge for the consumers to select one out of two?
11. Why is the liberty of add one dependency and coding peacefully, being taken away?
12. The best part of JEE was that it is a standard. Why creating a separate standard?

I know I am late to ask the question while v.1.4 is about to get released. But its never late and we can always have community driven decision to merge the goodness of two.

Please forgive, if I stated something stupid.

Regards,

Abhideep

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[Arjan Tijms]

Hi,

MicroProfile started at a period when there wasn't even any prospect of Java EE moving to Eclipse. In these days Oracle had just silently stopped working on the Java EE specs, and most of the Java EE 8 work just ground to a halt.

In response almost all other active Java EE vendors started their own additional APIs, and loosely modelled that as a profile like the existing web profile in Java EE. Where the web profile is aimed at web applications, and thus includes JSF and JPA, micro profile is aimed at web services (micro services), which of course don't need JSF and certainly don't need JPA (micro services often don't persist data to a central database themselves, but instead send messages).

If Java EE would have remained in limbo, MicroProfile would perhaps have been the future migration path, but now that Java EE is being transferred to Eclipse there's already talk of MicroProfile possibly merging with Jakarta EE at some point.

In Payara this is already practically the case. All MicroProfile APIs are already applicable there to all the other Java EE APIs and are present in both Payara Server and Payara Micro, i.e. MP JWT in Payara is not limited to JAX-RS, but is a normal Java EE authentication mechanism that applies to Servlets as well, and the authenticated identity it sets is valid for all containers, and not just for JAX-RS. Likewise, OpenTracing applies just as well to Servlets in Payara and is not limited to just JAX-RS, etc etc.

As mentioned bij James, Java EE is being transferred now, and Jakarta EE really has to start yet. Some pockets of works have started already (such as in the JAX-RS project), but a full Jakarta EE spec and process and an actual release and certification and such is still some time away. This is perhaps unfortunate, but it is what it is.

So tldr; 

* MP is not part of Java EE since Java EE is frozen and being transferred. 

* MP is not part of Jakarta EE since that is still being set up. 

* MP is the only active place (for EE vendors) to do real work.

My 2 personal cents.

Kind regards,

Arjan

[David Blevins]

Arjan paints an accurate picture on the climate of the industry at the time, so definitely do read that.  Building on that, this community is filled with Java EE lovers and it was that passion that lead to the creation of MicroProfile, wanting to move things forward in a positive way.

When we started it was with the intent of incubating ideas rapidly, favoring fail-fast and a breaking-changes-are-ok mentality to experiment together.  The intent was to graduate the parts that are proven successful into the JCP for standardization and potential inclusion in Java EE.  Something we believed was necessary regardless of any health issues of the greater Java EE industry.  We started in Github, moved to Eclipse, eventually filed our first open source JSR based on MicroProfile community work.  Now here we are moving all of Java EE to Eclipse and Java EE itself is being open sourced.  At this moment 100% of the organizations involved in Jakarata EE are involved in MicroProfile as well.  So from a people perspective, the unity you're after and we also are after, is there.  We've come together and are changing the industry together.

That only leaves branding, git repos, processes ... and goals.  The first two are easily dealt with, "Jakarta MicroProfile" sounds pretty good and git is so distributed, no one would notice if they were moved.  Even if those two things happened, there would still likely be a difference in processes and goals, because the focus of fail-fast and a breaking-changes-are-ok is still a critical goal of the MicroProfile.  In the new world MicroProfile may become the "incubator" for future Jakarta EE standards -- who knows.

At this moment the processes around Jakarta EE are still widely unknown, so it's impossible to answer how a known process could fit with the unknown process.  However I will restate it's the same people on both sides, so there is reason to have hope the two will fit together in the best way we can possibly imagine.

I would stay from a very practical perspective, much of us are incredibly focused on Jakarta EE and it would make most sense to keep focus there.  Once things settle there, and not before, it makes sense to come back over here and ask the question "ok, now what do we want to do?"

All that said, thank you for your question.  I suspect 800 other people are happy you asked it.  :)

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[James Roper]

In the new world MicroProfile may become the "incubator" for future Jakarta EE standards -- who knows.

I like this idea - as a relatively new contributor to the MicroProfile and Jakarta EE ecosystems, I've found the processes so far with MicroProfile to be very conducive towards incubation of yet to be fully formed ideas. Java standards in general set a very high bar for contribution (which is a good thing), having something that is more flexible as an intermediate step for contribution I think could be very helpful.

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[Reza Rahman]

You are definitely not alone. I suspect even the MP folks might be asking the same questions themselves.

I think it's just a question of when a merge happens, not if. Hopefully that will be sooner rather than later. It's in all of our best interests to promote the impression that Jakarta EE is moving forward quickly, as opposed to some other stop gap mechanism after all.

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[Abhideep Chakravarty]

Thank you all for your responses. My concern is addressed as far as MicroProfile and JEE coming together as one entity. I see it will take some time and thats perfectly ok.

Hope the message goes to all and people asking this question get the answer. Once again, thanks for your time.

[Emily Jiang]

Great discussion! +1 on Arjan, David, James and Reza! I am at Devoxx France this week and this question came up. Here is what I use to convince people that now is NOT the time to make a decision.

We are not going to throw away your current car (MicroProfile) while a new car (Jakarta EE) is still in manufacture.

When we get the new car, we will retain the two cars for some time to think and compare.

If the new does all the things the current car does, we might just keep the new car. If the two cars have different advantages, we might want to keep two cars.


Thanks
Emily

[yann Blazart]

Hello everybody (hello Emily, we met us at a Cdi 2.0 meeting with Antoine and Antonio some years ago, I hope you are well, and I'm sad to have missed your HOL at Devoxx France this year).

For now, as EE evangelist, I want to say on my little side, it's better to keep MP separated. Why ?

Simply because of the catastrophic image of Java EE. Everybody think it's eavy, think that the only good light weight thing is spring / Springboot. Until Jakarta EE will gain a better image, MP is a good solution to say to spring fan zombies "hey buddy try this, it's cool also and you can choose your implementation!"

Of course I wish that MP's api will return back into Jakarta EE. But not now.

When I hear around me "Spring has won the war", I feel the real point is to show that EE is fast and lightweight also, and because of EE monolith reputation, Mp is a good argument.

Just my 2 cents.

Ps: sorry for my bad English.

[Emily Jiang]

Hi Yann,

Yes, I do remember you. Such a small world! Welcome to join MicroProfile community! +1 on your comments! MP have been aiming for being simple and portable!!! Hope MP will win over more and more Java Developers!

Thank you for sharing the valuable comments! Please rejoin the discussion when it is time to make decision!

Emily