Schedule next architecture group call during week of July 16-20

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Scott Stark

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Jul 5, 2018, 11:18:17 AM7/5/18
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I have created a doodle poll to try to schedule the next architecture group call for sometime during the week of July 16-20:

Raymond Auge

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Jul 5, 2018, 11:46:23 AM7/5/18
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Scott is this an open call?

- Ray

On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Scott Stark <sst...@redhat.com> wrote:
I have created a doodle poll to try to schedule the next architecture group call for sometime during the week of July 16-20:

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Raymond Augé (@rotty3000)
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Markus Eisele

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Jul 5, 2018, 11:54:22 AM7/5/18
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I'd be interested, too.

M

On Thu 5. Jul 2018 at 17:46, Raymond Auge <raymon...@liferay.com> wrote:
Scott is this an open call?

- Ray
On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 11:18 AM, Scott Stark <sst...@redhat.com> wrote:
I have created a doodle poll to try to schedule the next architecture group call for sometime during the week of July 16-20:

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Raymond Augé (@rotty3000)
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Scott Stark

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Jul 5, 2018, 1:29:50 PM7/5/18
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Yes, open to anyone. Once enough people have responded I'll add the call info to the MP calendar.

Amelia Eiras

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Jul 5, 2018, 7:25:31 PM7/5/18
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Hola Scott, 

Why are we not using MP tuesday hangout for this call?
Will you join next Tuesday and re-state topic there?

Cheers, 

Scott Stark

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Jul 5, 2018, 9:09:46 PM7/5/18
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We wanted to have a technical agenda that a significant number of implementors could arrange to discuss. The general hangout did not seem like the correct forum. We could certainly have an arch call now and then as the agenda item on the MP call.

Amelia Eiras

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Jul 5, 2018, 9:12:43 PM7/5/18
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💛💪🏼 
Thanks for quick & clear follow up MicroProfiler Scott! 

See you next Tuesday! — you are most welcomed to add topic to that day agenda via minutes. 💫

Sent from my IPhone
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Mark Struberg

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Jul 16, 2018, 1:09:32 PM7/16/18
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Was there any date already scheduled? I've not seen any response yet. Did I miss it?

txs and LieGrue,
strub

Amelia Eiras

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Jul 16, 2018, 1:41:00 PM7/16/18
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Mark— the topic of having a separate architecture call, in addition to the time Tuesday hangout, was discussed extensively on last Tuesday community hangout. 

Short— More calls are a not as effective... the group chat & its overview on topic was great— data is on the minutes. 

Please check the call minutes. 

Sent from my IPhone

Kevin Sutter

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Jul 16, 2018, 3:53:55 PM7/16/18
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Scott,
Sorry, I missed this request on the doodle poll while I was out on vacation... Must have read it, but didn't process it until I saw the updates today.  I just did the doodle poll.  Had we already decided on a time for this week?

I was late to our MP hangout last Tuesday and the conversation that Amelia that is referencing was just wrapping up.  It sounded like people were just unclear on the intent of these "architecture" calls in comparison to the every other week hangout.

I would suggest we continue finding a time that works for our next architecture call.  And, then during our next hangout on the 24th, you or a deputy can attend the hangout and explain what we're trying to accomplish with these architecture calls.  (I won't be on that hangout call due to vacation...)

Thanks,
Kevin
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Amelia Eiras

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Jul 16, 2018, 4:04:04 PM7/16/18
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Kevin— good follow up because you joined call when topic was being closed. 
Most of us agreed that if a new call is needed for architecture matters, we ought to follow the technical 2 extra calls that occurred to help established latest MP released, decided on the Tuesday’s hangout. 

The group agreed that those actions enabled better participation and inclusion as you and Mark has clearly pointed out, you missed task/request at hand with the double and the why.

__ finally, we also stated that if calls are going to be created [NOT for projects] but general work aside from Tuesday’s hangout, we might - the majority of us— stop attending the Tuesday hangout and focus on whatever is being worked— Clearly, we prefer not do so but that is the stand. 

Hugs to all, this thread rocks! :)
 

Ondro Mihályi

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:26:17 PM7/16/18
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Hi,

Maybe we don't need a separate Architecture calls apart from MP hangouts but then we should devote some MP hangout calls completely to Architecture discussions. Maybe once a month, we can schedule MP hangouts more regularly if needed. There are already 6 issues to discuss at the architecture level and I'm sure the list will grow. And none of the issues is easy to resolve, otherwise it would resolved already at a spec level.

Recently I don't have much time to attend MP community hangouts but from the minutes it seems that there's very little space to discuss these technical matters there along with other things. We really need devoted hangouts meetings to discuss them. Whether we devote one of the MP community hangouts a month for this, or we schedule an additional one in one of the skipped weeks, or we create a separate Architecture hangout doesn't really matter.

I would also consider rethinking the time for hangouts to discuss architectural matters. These may be interested to a different group of people than MP Community hangouts and while they don't care that the time doesn't allow them to attend MP Community hangouts they could feel depressed if they couldn't join the architecture decisions. The current doodle poll shows that for most people, the usual time of MP community hangouts is not the best time for most of the people - it didn't receive more than 5 votes out of 11 on any day of this week. I know that it might be because of holidays but it hints that the current community hangout time could be changed for the better.

--Ondro

Amelia Eiras

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:39:27 PM7/16/18
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+1 on:

Quoting you:  "we don't need a separate Architecture calls apart from MP hangouts but then we should devote some MP hangout calls completely to Architecture discussions. “

Which was the preferred choice during the call. 

Each one of your suggestions was discussed carefully during hangout, KUDOS Ondro on great summary, better than the minutes! :)

Updated the MP minutes for next call with your feedback. If you cannot join that call, via thread you have stated clearly on writing your thoughts. 



Ondro Mihályi

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:47:33 PM7/16/18
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Thanks, Amelia, it's great that we're all on the same page :) Makes our life a lot easier :-D

Will we devote the next MP Community hangout to architecture topics then? I should be able to join but I never know, it's evening 8pm in my timezone and it's usually the time my family is very active at home :) It would be easier to join a bit sooner (during work hours) or later (when my daughter is asleep).

--Ondro

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Amelia Eiras

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Jul 16, 2018, 6:54:11 PM7/16/18
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Word!!! :) 

Ondro— You, if you think it right, are most welcomed to initiate a new MP thread and see if the Community active on the MP hangout welcomes a new doodle pool with potential new days in addition to current time/day— if you do, please (avoid Fridays).  Up to you to #walkthetalk with below feedback in not optimal time. 

PS:  I won’t do it for you given that I am located PDT and 11am works phenomenal for me (when not flying). LOL totally bias 

Super hugs, 

Ondro Mihályi

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Jul 16, 2018, 7:19:47 PM7/16/18
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Completely fair, I don't expect you to do it for me :)

I'll try creating a new poll and we'll see if we can find a better time. And I'll avoid Fridays and also early mornings in California ;-) 

Respect,
Ondro


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Kevin Sutter

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Jul 17, 2018, 9:21:05 AM7/17/18
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Can we slow down a bit here?  If you look back when Mark and Scott first suggested this idea of an architecture board meeting, I was vocally against it.  I was questioning why we needed a separate call from our Hangout.  I was also concerned about adding yet another meeting to our busy calendars.  But, I listened to the arguments in favor of these architecture board meetings and decided to sign up and give it a try.

I absolutely agree that we need these architecture board meetings separate from the hangouts.  As Ondro has pointed out, there are several issues already logged for discussion where a simple answer was not readily available.  Some of these items will require additional thought and input from various members to come to resolution.  They will not be handled by a simple Q&A during a Hangout.  Take a look:  https://github.com/eclipse/microprofile/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3A%22Architecture+board%22

We can not let a Hangout discussion decide the fate of this architecture board when nobody involved in the architecture board was present to defend it.  (BTW, everybody was and has been invited to participate in the architecture board meetings.)  We have only had one (or maybe two, if I missed one) meeting.

The Hangout meeting is wider in scope -- release mgmt, feature status, marketing status, conference discussion, etc.  If we try to fit the Architecture issues into this format, it won't work.  Now, maybe we can take a page out of the Eclipse process and ask the Architecture Board to bring any community-wide issues to the Hangout for final discussion.  That is, don't allow the Architecture board to decide things that affect the whole community without bringing it forward to the Hangout first?  We could have a slot on the Hangout agenda for discussion of Architecture Board status.  Would something like that work?

--  Kevin

Scott Stark

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Jul 17, 2018, 1:44:31 PM7/17/18
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I have been busying catching up on things after coming back from vacation. It looks like the time most can attend is Thu July 19 from 9-10 PDT, 16:00-17:00 GMT.

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Alasdair Nottingham

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Jul 18, 2018, 4:43:50 PM7/18/18
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That works for me, are you going to update the calendar with the conf call details?

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Kevin Sutter

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Jul 18, 2018, 5:43:52 PM7/18/18
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I have a conflict, but since Alasdair can make it, I'm good.

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Scott Stark

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Jul 18, 2018, 5:54:18 PM7/18/18
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I have updated the calendar. In case they do not show up:

James Roper

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Jul 18, 2018, 9:32:53 PM7/18/18
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Just like to add my 2c about an architecture call, as I was in the first architecture call, and in the hangout that discussed it. I've thought about it a bit since then.

The reality is MicroProfile is getting bigger. There are more projects, more concerns, more releases, more people and more opinions. We very often don't get through all the topics in the biweekly meeting, and are often cutting things short. These are normal growing pains experienced by any organisation, and the solution is to break things up, have smaller, more focused meetings, attended by less people.

For those that are complaining that there are already too many meetings, this is also a normal growing pain in an organisation, and people that find themselves in too many meetings usually need to solve this by letting go. As an organisation grows, you can't be involved in everything - if you try, you actually hinder the organisation from operating effectively and growing, as it means you become a bottleneck, a single point of failure. You need to delegate, you need to trust others. That doesn't mean completely divorcing from all the areas, we do need to put the necessary reporting channels in place - for example, the architecture meetings should report back to the biweekly hangout with a summary.

One thing that I think we do well across the board is we have agendas, minutes and recordings of all meetings. This makes it straight forward for everyone to have a view over everything that's important to them - they can check agendas and only attend meetings if there's a topic that's important that week, they can review minutes to keep up to date and see if anything was decided that they wanted to have a say in, and at the worst case, they can watch the meeting itself to find out exactly what happened. I've certainly found it very useful to be able to see the agendas and minutes of meetings I don't attend, if there's anyone that hasn't read the minutes from meetings, you should try, you'll find it a very effective way to keep a broad understanding of what's going on across MicroProfile. So most of the process necessary to scale the organisation of MicroProfile is already in place.

In my opinion, the thing that actually needs to evolve most is the biweekly hangout. To facilitate MicroProfiles growth, it needs to become a place for status updates and announcements, not for discussions and decisions. It should be mandatory for the lead, or a backup in their place, from every other group, both projects, as well as groups like architecture and marketing, to attend, and give a status update. I do want to emphasise the "become" there, this is a transition as we grow, I'm not saying we stop all discussions and decisions in the biweekly hangout starting next week, but that should be our trajectory, since as we grow, things discussed or decided in those meetings will become more and more a waste of a larger and larger portion of the attendees time.

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Kevin Sutter

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Jul 18, 2018, 11:26:23 PM7/18/18
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+1, James.  Nicely worded.  Thanks!

-- Kevin

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