All new specification releases on hold until MPWG and EFSP operational

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John Clingan

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Apr 21, 2020, 4:56:45 PM4/21/20
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We know that not everyone can attend our Hangouts every week, so we want to ensure that everyone understands the requirements as they relate to releasing MicroProfile specifications.


It is already well understood that the MicroProfile 4.0 platform release will follow the processes defined by the MicroProfile Working Group (MPWG) and Eclipse Foundation Specification Process (EFSP) or MPSP. Please note that this also applies to component specifications as well, where we need to utilize the MicroProfile 4.0 release as a "clean slate" in capturing IP flows for all specs. That means each specification will have a formal specification committee vote following the final EFSP, with a clear tracking of IP flow.  This is a good "forcing function" for us to follow as we transition into the MPWG. Note, this applies to any standalone specification releases as well from here on out, which must flow through the EFSP.


Just to be clear:  No MicroProfile releases until we establish the MicroProfile Working Group, along with an approved EFSP/MPSP.


Let's all focus on getting the MPWG and MPSP operational so we can move forward as quickly as possible.


Thanks.


John Clingan

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Apr 21, 2020, 5:03:12 PM4/21/20
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Egad, my bad, one last clarification that came up on the Hangout. All major/minor "final" releases are on hold. So, Release Candidates are OK and any background spec efforts on existing specs can continue.

Ladislav Thon

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Apr 22, 2020, 3:14:08 AM4/22/20
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út 21. 4. 2020 v 23:03 odesílatel John Clingan <jcli...@redhat.com> napsal:
All major/minor "final" releases are on hold.

I think this really should read "major/minor/micro", if _all_ final releases are on hold and only milestone releases / release candidates are allowed.

I know it would make _me_ think micros are also fine :-)

LT
 

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:56:45 PM UTC-7, John Clingan wrote:

We know that not everyone can attend our Hangouts every week, so we want to ensure that everyone understands the requirements as they relate to releasing MicroProfile specifications.


It is already well understood that the MicroProfile 4.0 platform release will follow the processes defined by the MicroProfile Working Group (MPWG) and Eclipse Foundation Specification Process (EFSP) or MPSP. Please note that this also applies to component specifications as well, where we need to utilize the MicroProfile 4.0 release as a "clean slate" in capturing IP flows for all specs. That means each specification will have a formal specification committee vote following the final EFSP, with a clear tracking of IP flow.  This is a good "forcing function" for us to follow as we transition into the MPWG. Note, this applies to any standalone specification releases as well from here on out, which must flow through the EFSP.


Just to be clear:  No MicroProfile releases until we establish the MicroProfile Working Group, along with an approved EFSP/MPSP.


Let's all focus on getting the MPWG and MPSP operational so we can move forward as quickly as possible.


Thanks.


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Emily Jiang

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Apr 23, 2020, 5:12:49 AM4/23/20
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To my best knowledge, I think this freeze does not apply to the micro releases. By the way, MicroProfile Fault Tolerance micro releases are in the making. Please shout now if you have objections.

Thanks
Emily
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Wayne Beaton

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Apr 23, 2020, 4:33:57 PM4/23/20
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+1

This does not apply to "micro" (service) releases.

Wayne

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Emily Jiang

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Apr 23, 2020, 5:07:54 PM4/23/20
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Thank you Wayne for the confirmation!
Emily

Amelia Eiras

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May 4, 2020, 5:12:06 PM5/4/20
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Throwing this out there since tomorrow's MP hangout is solely focused on the WG conversation. 

Can anyone volunteer to write a short blog about this update on code and releases and how?  
WHY I ask? 
It will take maybe 2 + months or more to get hopefully the MP Charter completed, until then, we ought to have something running in the MPblog that could be push weekly as a reminder for the #ossDOERS that care about code & innovation and have little interest on current discussions about MPWG. 

To own the task, please send that git ticket to Mktg Repo and that link here :) Owning it is that simple.  The opportunity cost of not having that constant reminder being pushed also via the MP media channels is too great based on the current delays on MP 4.0 release. 

This is an #ossDOERS call to action with smile, A.


On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:56:45 PM UTC-7, John Clingan wrote:

Roberto Cortez

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May 6, 2020, 8:21:43 AM5/6/20
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Should we just announce that MP 4.0 is delayed? I think we need to also include an estimate of a possible release date, which takes me to the next question.

How long do we think that MP 4.0 is going to be delayed?

Cheers,
Roberto

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Amelia Eiras

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May 6, 2020, 10:55:13 AM5/6/20
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Dias Roberto, 

MP future releases will only be possible once MP has a WG approved... completion time is uncertain, however we are working around the clock to get the tasks done.  Hopefully MP 4.0 release can be out in early Q3.   



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John Clingan

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May 6, 2020, 3:39:18 PM5/6/20
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Yeah, it's really hard to say how long it will take. Could be a couple of weeks, could be months. The critical path is getting working group members signed up.
Roberto

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Kevin Sutter

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May 6, 2020, 5:23:22 PM5/6/20
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But, Roberto still brings up a valid point...  I know we have communicated this delay via our Hangouts, our Minutes, and these Google Group posts.  But, do we need something more "official"?  Maybe something short and sweet from our Marketing team?  Just something that indicates we need to establish this Working Group in order to fully support the Specification Process, which in turn protects our collective IP flows.  It's a Must Do action that unfortunately will delay our MP 4.0 release...

What do you think?
Kevin

Amelia Eiras

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May 6, 2020, 5:31:33 PM5/6/20
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So fun. 
The formal blog is the task at hand for Microprofilers.  If none volunteers to submit that git with the write ownership for next week, on Monday 5/11, while attending the MP Mktg hangout-  I will create a git issue to enable the team to own that write up ~ say, it will follow the current Template 4MAJOR Release Blog (Mktg Drive folder) up for releases (with the NO release and explain why & what to expect). 

My thought when asking for a volunteer was to get anyone aside from (Scott, John, Kevin, David and me) to own it. Was mainly focusing on scaling to more MicroProfilers to own such an update that will be pushed via media channels until we have a new update with YEAYYY to release MP. 4.0 exact date. 
Roberto

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Roberto Cortez

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May 7, 2020, 4:41:14 AM5/7/20
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I may be able to write something. My comment was mostly about setting some expectation, then just saying “it is delayed and we have no idea when it is going to be out”. And probably that may be the case :)

Maybe we can say that we delayed to Q3? Might give enough time, it is somehow uncertain, but it does give you some expectation on when it might be released.

Cheers,
Roberto

Amelia Eiras

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May 7, 2020, 2:15:51 PM5/7/20
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Hey #ossDOER/MicroProfiler Roberto, 

"... may be able... " doesn't work. Where is that git ticket with you owning task? :) There is no try, JUST DO.  No pressure, yet if you are serious about it, submit ticket & own it. bias, estimating MP 4.0  release to be out sometime in Q3 is a healthy desire if stated as such. 

However, stating that desire goes with the 3rd and final yearly MP release always set- as the norm for early Q4.  
How would this late release 4.0 affect the Q4 release?  Do we skip the 3rd release?  THIS, we ought to discuss it on the next Community call.   
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Werner Keil

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May 7, 2020, 5:32:12 PM5/7/20
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"Maybe" is not enough to be a stable foundation for possible inclusion in a future Jakarta EE release.

+1 on the "lockdown" until MPWG and EFSP are working.

Werner
Roberto

Roberto

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Roberto Cortez

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May 7, 2020, 8:15:11 PM5/7/20
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The lockdown is already well established and no releases are going to happen until the WG is done.

The discussion here is about communicating widely what is happening. possible delay of MP 4.0 (almost certain) and expectation for a new release date, and what should happened with releases planned to Q3 and Q4.

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Emily Jiang

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May 11, 2020, 6:15:54 AM5/11/20
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At the moment, it is difficult to predict the timing either Q3 or Q4. I suggest we should just assume it will be delayed and watch the progress on Working Group discussion. However, we should give at least 4-week notice in advance for the MP 4.0 release when MP WG is reaching to the final phase, so that MP specifications can either leave some issues out or tidy up some loose ends.

Does this address your concern @Roberto?
Thanks,

Emily
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Roberto Cortez

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May 11, 2020, 1:09:48 PM5/11/20
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Hi Emily,

Thank you for your response.

Partially. In an ideal world, we would communicate to the community an estimate to the delay. I know that at this time, we have no idea when we are getting a 4.0 out. On the other hand, communicating to the wider community via the marketing channels that 4.0 is postponed without any other expectation, may be insufficient.

It is what it is, and maybe we should just communicate it is postponed and that is it.

Cheers,
Roberto

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Werner Keil

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May 11, 2020, 3:21:05 PM5/11/20
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Hi,

Guess it will be hard to predict, how long that takes, because applying the EFSP MicroProfile gets a taste of "production grade reality" now as well as the "pleasure" to deal with all the IP stuff and telling from 15 years in the JCP including about a decade in the EC plus 2 years in thee Spec Committee some things take time especially if the lawyers are involved.

If this is an "all or none" process for MP that also means all the contributors who ever participated in either of the features and APIs must approve that, otherwise there would only be the option of their contributions or entire MP sub-features removed elsewhere if they don't agree with the changes...

Even though not all MP repositories have so many contributors a few do and that'll take time to ask everyone.

Werner
Roberto

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Amelia Eiras

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May 11, 2020, 5:55:51 PM5/11/20
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Werner,


Please stop adding concussion and misinformation to the current task at hand.  
You choosing to compare the JSRs' transfer of the JCP Java EE 18yrs to the EF is drastically unfair. 


MicroProfile has been pushing code releases on-time and with it innovation for about 4yrs and has done so already via EF processes. 

True, MP is still under incubation, this was a question I asked last Tuesday on the MPWG group hangout. https://docs.google.com/document/d/16v3jVkcDzVz9BVU5aGEzPVbK-a8BIx7S1gbqToVUaLs/edit#  (minutes HERE)

The nice thing about today, MP continues to see no "bad authors", each company who has been active has been a well-known OSS contributor assigning its own people to the APIs & tasks at hand.  Each Contributor who is not affiliated with a company do so with outmost care. 

With this follow up, i ask you to focus on what matters and ask yourself what's the value of your messages on current' discussions before pressing that Post bottom. You can do this. 

A.



On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:56:45 PM UTC-7, John Clingan wrote:

Werner Keil

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May 12, 2020, 3:23:53 PM5/12/20
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Amelia,

The question was not really about why MP itself is still in incubation, but about creating a sandbox or incubator within MP, which is not so different what was also discussed in Jakarta EE btw, primarily in the Security Spec which has a pretty long history as I mentioned.

So better focus on the tasks at hand instead of picking on the JCP or Jakarta EE again, that was not the point, it's simply about features that are in flux and may not be seen as stable or mature enough in a while.

Most other questions except the marketing committee were touched or answered, so what about that?

Otherwise glad to hear, there is no ballot-stuffing by actors or parties involved so they get multiple votes here;-)

Werner

John Clingan

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May 13, 2020, 1:33:29 PM5/13/20
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On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 12:23:53 PM UTC-7, Werner Keil wrote:
Amelia,

The question was not really about why MP itself is still in incubation, but about creating a sandbox or incubator within MP, which is not so different what was also discussed in Jakarta EE btw, primarily in the Security Spec which has a pretty long history as I mentioned.

FYI, MicroProfile has a process in place for this.
 

Werner Keil

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May 13, 2020, 4:03:44 PM5/13/20
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It would be surprising if the whole WG move would work without further splitting up MP into actual subprojects (like https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/ee4j or https://projects.eclipse.org/projects/iot, Paho also has an incubator there btw.) so if the "sandbox" or "incubator" or whatever name works will be preserved, I guess that might help to try out new stuff and keep the rest stable enough, especially if there was a downstream platform for some. 

Amelia Eiras

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May 19, 2020, 2:34:09 PM5/19/20
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Roberto, 

I provided suggestive feedback on the delay of MP 4.0 release blog, thanks for owning it!

No rush, pull me in as needed directly via the document &/or the issue. :)

Roberto Cortez

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May 21, 2020, 7:38:40 AM5/21/20
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Hi Amelia,

I’ve reviewed the feedback and rewrote a few bits.

Cheers,
Roberto

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Amelia Eiras

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May 29, 2020, 3:58:52 PM5/29/20
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Roberto, 

Thank you for beautifully owning the write-up summarizing this thread & the many hangout discussions. 

The Release Update Announcement blog is published & MPtwitter push pinned. 

  • https://github.com/eclipse/microprofile-marketing/issues/273 is not yet closed. 
  • With the help of Ryan, thank you! early next week -- a new blog header simplified design will be replacing the media card "temporarily" placed today (by me).  Also, keep in mind that 1 weekly media reminder will be scheduled to run the blog and the message until July 31st. 
  • If release is not possible in August, expect the blog update to be adjusted with next foreseeable release extension accompanied by relevant  media weekly message. :)   fluid and simple & traceable via git issue. :)  
Wishing everyone a recharging weekend, let's keep rationally safe! 
Roberto

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