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I would like to see a lot of communication in Gitter rooms and use hangouts just to organize and make sure nothing slips through. We may consider also separate mailing lists for specs, but to me Gitter is enough and works fine.
Ondro
I think ad long as hangouts produce complete meeting minutes, it should be up to the spec team to decide. But it's good to agree that having meetings every 2 weeks or just limited to 30 is completely normal and teams should consider these options.
I would like to see a lot of communication in Gitter rooms and use hangouts just to organize and make sure nothing slips through. We may consider also separate mailing lists for specs, but to me Gitter is enough and works fine.
Ondro
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Personally, I think the hangouts are fantastic - if anyone has anything to complain about it being hard to attend a hangout, its me, the community hangout was at 4am my time (it's shifted to 6am now due to daylight savings) yet I still attended almost every fortnight. I've been working full time in open source for 6 years now, and the biweekly community hangout I have to say is the best, most productive experience I've had in the high level cross organisational syncing of a large, multiple sub project open source project.As we grow, I do think we need to be more strategic about hangouts. I've said this before, but it's not going to be possible for any one person to be across all sub projects. Organisations will need to delegate. And we do need more project leads to attend the community hangout, so that that delegators that do need to be broadly across projects can at least get a status update each fortnight. If a spec is active, with new contributions every week, then I think it makes sense for that spec to have weekly hangouts. Otherwise, if it's less active, then its hangouts can be cancelled, or go down to once a fortnight or once a month.Gitter conversations are much easier to miss than email conversations. They're great for people who are full time in a project, but terrible for lurkers that just need a quick status update from time to time - such people cannot afford to go back through all the old conversations just to find the important points. To me it feels like the worst of both real time and asynchronous worlds - to be useful, you still need to be on it at the same as the other people, as you do with a hangout, but, if you're not there, it's much easier to miss something important. At least with hangouts, you know that there is one every week or fortnight, and you have a great summary to skim through in the form of minutes, and you've got the recordings if you need more detail - I'm not sure if you've ever read the minutes or watched the recordings for any hangouts, but I'd argue that the structure of a summary in minutes and detail in recordings makes them more traceable, due to a higher level of ease of finding what you need, than Gitter.On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 02:47, Raymond Auge <raymon...@liferay.com> wrote:On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Ondro Mihályi <ondrej....@gmail.com> wrote:I think ad long as hangouts produce complete meeting minutes, it should be up to the spec team to decide. But it's good to agree that having meetings every 2 weeks or just limited to 30 is completely normal and teams should consider these options.
I would like to see a lot of communication in Gitter rooms and use hangouts just to organize and make sure nothing slips through. We may consider also separate mailing lists for specs, but to me Gitter is enough and works fine.Gitter is indeed helpful. At least it's traceable, and does provide a faster communication turn around, but only for those who choose to observe in real time. Otherwise, it's just like email if you are absent and just get the activity via email.
- Ray
Ondro
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I think this thread delivers some good insights. One problem with the hangouts is that MicroProfile is consensus-driven and we tend to make decisions based on those on hangout calls. James is 100% correct, we've grown to the point where one person can be an expert in all topics nor can one person (pragmatically) attend all calls. It's going to require some level of divide-and-conquer for larger organizations and pick-and-choose for individuals. From a MicroProfile Live Hangout perspective, we like to start group threads where we think a decision or discussion is required from a broader audience. However, that is definitely not always the case.
MicroProfile has grown to the point where multiple processes need to be updated, and the challenge is going to be balancing our agile/lightweight approach with the need for broader engagement and involvement. Consensus-based decisions tend to be made by those who are active in the project. Personally, I want to maintain that approach. So, do we have the framework in place for those who want to be active to be active? Each project has hangouts and mailing (or issue) lists. Is that enough?
I have this strange urge to discuss this on our next live hangout, LOL.
On Sunday, November 18, 2018 at 3:19:01 PM UTC-8, James Roper wrote:
Personally, I think the hangouts are fantastic - if anyone has anything to complain about it being hard to attend a hangout, its me, the community hangout was at 4am my time (it's shifted to 6am now due to daylight savings) yet I still attended almost every fortnight. I've been working full time in open source for 6 years now, and the biweekly community hangout I have to say is the best, most productive experience I've had in the high level cross organisational syncing of a large, multiple sub project open source project.As we grow, I do think we need to be more strategic about hangouts. I've said this before, but it's not going to be possible for any one person to be across all sub projects. Organisations will need to delegate. And we do need more project leads to attend the community hangout, so that that delegators that do need to be broadly across projects can at least get a status update each fortnight. If a spec is active, with new contributions every week, then I think it makes sense for that spec to have weekly hangouts. Otherwise, if it's less active, then its hangouts can be cancelled, or go down to once a fortnight or once a month.Gitter conversations are much easier to miss than email conversations. They're great for people who are full time in a project, but terrible for lurkers that just need a quick status update from time to time - such people cannot afford to go back through all the old conversations just to find the important points. To me it feels like the worst of both real time and asynchronous worlds - to be useful, you still need to be on it at the same as the other people, as you do with a hangout, but, if you're not there, it's much easier to miss something important. At least with hangouts, you know that there is one every week or fortnight, and you have a great summary to skim through in the form of minutes, and you've got the recordings if you need more detail - I'm not sure if you've ever read the minutes or watched the recordings for any hangouts, but I'd argue that the structure of a summary in minutes and detail in recordings makes them more traceable, due to a higher level of ease of finding what you need, than Gitter.On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 02:47, Raymond Auge <raymon...@liferay.com> wrote:On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 5:33 AM Ondro Mihályi <ondrej....@gmail.com> wrote:I think ad long as hangouts produce complete meeting minutes, it should be up to the spec team to decide. But it's good to agree that having meetings every 2 weeks or just limited to 30 is completely normal and teams should consider these options.
I would like to see a lot of communication in Gitter rooms and use hangouts just to organize and make sure nothing slips through. We may consider also separate mailing lists for specs, but to me Gitter is enough and works fine.Gitter is indeed helpful. At least it's traceable, and does provide a faster communication turn around, but only for those who choose to observe in real time. Otherwise, it's just like email if you are absent and just get the activity via email.
- Ray
Ondro
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