EE4J and Microprofile

[Steve Millidge]

There have been a number of references made to Microprofile in announcements by those involved in the EE4J migration process that imply that one day the groups may be merged. This should be discussed in Microprofile in the community not behind closed doors by EE4J. Hence this post. What do people think?

Personally I think the talk is way premature. Microprofile is building momentum and starting to deliver real results for developers. Being subsumed into the behemoth of #EE4J will severely slow and delay future Microprofile initiatives.Also the original goals of Microprofile are significantly different to the standardisation goals of EE4J.

[Rich Sharples]

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 10:31 Steve Millidge <l33t...@gmail.com> wrote:

There have been a number of references made to Microprofile in announcements by those involved in the EE4J migration process that imply that one day the groups may be merged.  This should be discussed in Microprofile in the community not behind closed doors by EE4J. Hence this post. What do people think?

Absolutely - Mark Little and I have stated publicly Red Hat's position - i.e. We'd like to see these efforts align over time but it's ultimately up to both communities to determine if that's the right course.

I also agree that we don't want to slow MP down at this point.

Personally I think the talk is way premature. Microprofile is building momentum and starting to deliver real results for developers. Being subsumed into the behemoth of #EE4J will severely slow and delay future Microprofile initiatives.Also the original goals of Microprofile are significantly different to the standardisation goals of EE4J.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/9a2ff2b2-c3c9-4097-a543-dba3ee5fceeb%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Rich Sharples, Red Hat Inc.

919 265 9099

@richsharples

[David Heffelfinger]

I think there is still a place for MicroProfile. The Java EE standard has to be very conservative regarding what technologies it adopts (what's new and cool today may be perceived as a failure in the future). MicroProfile can be a place where the community can experiment with new technologies, and whatever works out can be incorporated into the Java EE standard.

Just my 2 cents.

David

[Martijn Verburg]

+1 to Rich's comments, I'd also like to see the efforts merged *sometime* down the line, but only once EE4J is up and running properly and can move at the same pace we do here.

Cheers,
Martijn

On 1 October 2017 at 07:35, Rich Sharples <rsha...@redhat.com> wrote:

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 10:31 Steve Millidge <l33t...@gmail.com> wrote:

There have been a number of references made to Microprofile in announcements by those involved in the EE4J migration process that imply that one day the groups may be merged.  This should be discussed in Microprofile in the community not behind closed doors by EE4J. Hence this post. What do people think?

Absolutely - Mark Little and I have stated publicly Red Hat's position - i.e. We'd like to see these efforts align over time but it's ultimately up to both communities to determine if that's the right course.

I also agree that we don't want to slow MP down at this point.

Personally I think the talk is way premature. Microprofile is building momentum and starting to deliver real results for developers. Being subsumed into the behemoth of #EE4J will severely slow and delay future Microprofile initiatives.Also the original goals of Microprofile are significantly different to the standardisation goals of EE4J.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/9a2ff2b2-c3c9-4097-a543-dba3ee5fceeb%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Rich Sharples, Red Hat Inc.

919 265 9099

@richsharples

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/CAAYa_t-PCHv4o0FKJz9Pa4A1DqZ%3DZMe9js8MaOBjoCLXvsZnFA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Alasdair Nottingham]

I didn't interpret that statement as a decision, but an acceptance that there is a relationship between the two, which there is, and at some point the relationship between the two will need to be addressed by both communities and moving Eclipse MicroProfile when it graduates from incubation under the EE4J top level project is an option. I don't expect that to happen without both communities agreeing. 

Alasdair Nottingham

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/CAP7YuAQyzDoV3WKUzdM-cFgsH_hk3RSk_hPs8cw%3DRP8LTpmOBg%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Clingan]

+1

On Oct 1, 2017 7:35 AM, Rich Sharples <rsha...@redhat.com> wrote:

On Sun, Oct 1, 2017 at 10:31 Steve Millidge <l33t...@gmail.com> wrote:

There have been a number of references made to Microprofile in announcements by those involved in the EE4J migration process that imply that one day the groups may be merged.  This should be discussed in Microprofile in the community not behind closed doors by EE4J. Hence this post. What do people think?

Absolutely - Mark Little and I have stated publicly Red Hat's position - i.e. We'd like to see these efforts align over time but it's ultimately up to both communities to determine if that's the right course.

I also agree that we don't want to slow MP down at this point.

Personally I think the talk is way premature. Microprofile is building momentum and starting to deliver real results for developers. Being subsumed into the behemoth of #EE4J will severely slow and delay future Microprofile initiatives.Also the original goals of Microprofile are significantly different to the standardisation goals of EE4J.



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/9a2ff2b2-c3c9-4097-a543-dba3ee5fceeb%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Rich Sharples, Red Hat Inc.

919 265 9099

@richsharples

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

[Anbu Sampath]

I am a Java Developer used Java EE few years back then moved on different framework. After Microprofile it bought some interest to code again in Java EE space. Since EE4J and MP under under Eclipse open source, at some point it natural to merge both world and make the strong features to impress the more developers and vendors. Its too early to decide how things are going to work.so both can co-exists for sometime.Once community have clear plans, I really wish below things,

• More new features to target cloud/container/serverless
• Frequent releases of individual specs.
• RAD tools   
  

[John Clingan]

David, IMHO the two communities will likely become the same community, where we can take what we have learned from MicroProfile to help define EE4J processes. I think it will be difficult to split time, effort, marketing and branding, and $$ between two communities that I think will evolve to essentially be one in the same because of the large overlap in active participants.

As has been mentioned, it's full steam ahead on MicroProfile until EE4J becomes a formal project. The industry never pauses :-)

My opinion is only one opinion, of course.

[Mark Little]

+1

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/7953a3f7-aafc-4b9c-a2ba-99ae2ecd27de%40googlegroups.com.

[David Blevins]

Thanks for posting, Anbu, this is great feedback.  You're actually on of the first to say MicroProfile got you interested in the EE space, though I suspect you're not the only one.  You're just the bravest :)  I hope more people speak up with their stories.

I generally agree with your perspectives and what has been echoed so far.  I'll be pushing behind both communities as hard as I can.  If it makes sense to bring them together at some point, it can only help matters that we are all participating in both.  Whatever happens, it's going to be all the faces here, new and old, that make that decision.

Side note, welcome to the community, Anbu!

-- 

David Blevins

http://twitter.com/dblevins
http://www.tomitribe.com

310-633-3852

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/55528f8c-747a-430f-ac4e-cea71666baec%40googlegroups.com.

[John D. Ament]

I just got a bit of clarification, since it wasn't clear to me.  The proposed EE4J is a top level project, which is apparently at the same level as our parent project "technology."  It seems like it would make sense to me that MicroProfile moves under that umbrella rather than the existing technology project, once things are settled down.

[Heiko Rupp]

It could sort of make sense in the long run to see MicroProfile as the "incubator" for "the other thing" meaning, that a new sub-standard of EE4J could start in MP and once it is "ready" would migrate over into EE4J.
Sort of like the upstream/downstream model of Fedora and RHEL.

[Guillermo González de Agüero]

+1 that's exactly the vision I have.

El lun., 2 oct. 2017 a las 9:19, 'Heiko Rupp' via Eclipse MicroProfile (<microp...@googlegroups.com>) escribió:

It could sort of make sense in the long run to see MicroProfile as the "incubator" for "the other thing" meaning, that a new sub-standard of EE4J could start in MP and once it is "ready" would migrate over into EE4J.
Sort of like the upstream/downstream model of Fedora and RHEL.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/d2876725-bc46-489a-b317-eec8c35e4614%40googlegroups.com.

[Scott Stark]

I view this as just an artifact of the current problems with the JCP process that many involved in MicroProfile have worked on for over a decade to resolve. EE4J is largely the resolution of those issues as they apply the Java EE specifications. Incubator initiatives vs more mature efforts is part of a new process that we will need to define.

MicroProfile to me says what it is about in the name: it is a microservice and service mesh/cloud oriented profile of the enterprise java standards. EE4J and MicroProfile are extremes of the universe of available profiles one can create in the less constrained environment of collaborative open source development. 

I don't see a huge need to completely define exactly what this means from day one as ultimately it will be driven by who participates in the community. However, clear rules of engagement in the various profiles of enterprise Java specifications should be the first order of business in defining what EE4J means in a practical sense. This is essential for both marketing and understanding within the community.

[John D. Ament]

I think we have a better understanding now of what ee4j means - it's an organizational unit within Eclipse that's going to host some number of projects focused on building enterprise extensions for java.

I'm wondering, at this point, does it make sense for us to pursue moving MP under ee4j for better alignment?  It's probably a good thing to declare that now rather than wait, at least in my opinion.  I'm wondering if setting up a poll makes sense.

John

[Mark Little]

Hi John.

This came up during at least one of the JavaOne panel sessions and the
answer is that we need to ask both communities once they are
established. At the moment there is no EE4J community because there is
no completed EE4J project. Therefore, we need to wait for that to
happen. And until that happens we don't know the governance model
around EE4J, who will be in that community, who will be project leads,
on the PMC etc. As a result I wouldn't feel comfortable asking the
MicroProfile community if it wants to move to something based on how
we think things might look. As a member of the MicroProfile community
I wouldn't feel comfortable moving either.

Mark.

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/fbfa6bfa-5fad-4ed6-8e40-f04ced18c322%40googlegroups.com.

[John D. Ament]

Hi Mark,

I'm not sure that makes sense.  EE4J is proposed to be a TLP at Eclipse.  It actually wouldn't have a community per se, it would be more of an aggregation of all of the child projects in there.

John

> email to microprofile+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Little]

It would be an aggregation of communities from the sub-projects. And
whilst EE4J has no PMC or project leads, it is still too vague an
entity to poll for even their opinions. We need to wait. Of course you
can have your own opinion on the answer to the question and maybe have
a pre-discussion in the group here. However, I would be against a
formal vote within MicroProfile at this time for all the reasons I
mentioned earlier.

Mark.

>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/fbfa6bfa-5fad-4ed6-8e40-f04ced18c322%40googlegroups.com.
>> >
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/ad66e527-57a2-4c04-b9a4-ae195f6c65ac%40googlegroups.com.

[John D. Ament]

Sure.  I'm curious to see what others think of the subject as well.

John

>> > email to microprofile+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

>> > To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>> >
>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/fbfa6bfa-5fad-4ed6-8e40-f04ced18c322%40googlegroups.com.
>> >
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

> email to microprofile+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Martijn Verburg]

I personally see the two efforts merging or sitting under the same umbrella at some point in the future.  Many of the same people are involved and there are obvious overlapping goals.

If the EE4J community decide that they still want a slower cadence with more formal steps and specifications then MP might still be the best way to test out innovative ideas rapidly, but let's see!

Cheers,
Martijn

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/ed9b48f0-2ece-4fc0-bc84-5bc1eb20d9c5%40googlegroups.com.

[Mark Little]

In an ideal world I do too, as expressed several times during JavaOne.
However, it's too early to make a final determination. Until EE4J is
ready we need to continue the pace we've set for MicroProfile and
proceed as if EE4J were not around. My worst case scenario is that we
take the foot of the accelerator for MicroProfile while we wait for
EE4J. With all best intentions in the world from Red Hat, Oracle, IBM
and others, it's still going to take a while for EE4J.

Mark.

>>> >> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/fbfa6bfa-5fad-4ed6-8e40-f04ced18c322%40googlegroups.com.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> > Groups
>>> > "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
>>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> > an

>>> > email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
>>> > To view this discussion on the web visit
>>> >

>>> > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/ad66e527-57a2-4c04-b9a4-ae195f6c65ac%40googlegroups.com.
>>> >
>>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an

>> email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/ed9b48f0-2ece-4fc0-bc84-5bc1eb20d9c5%40googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Eclipse MicroProfile" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to microprofile...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to microp...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/CAP7YuATiP-uns4wiskS9jP6za2W__uxXwwNrmP5zZaYiGfGsYQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[John Clingan]

I also agree that “ideally” the two should merge, and I may have already stated that somewhere in a thread.

To extend what Mark said, what I think is *critical* for both MicroProfile and EE4J is execution for both projects (and potentially a merged project) to be relevant.

For EE4J, execution means Java EE related specifications and implementations in the eclipse foundation and passing the TCK, along with a defined set of committers. I think this also includes, although some may disagree, having at least one release under its belt under some to-be-defined release process. There are going to be some bumps in the road that EE4J will likely have to go over. It’s a big move.

For MicroProfile, execution means to continue delivering specifications and for communities/vendors to deliver implementations of those specifications. We can’t let MicroProfile get slowed down in EE4J’s execution. Once EE4J is executing, we can then decide how if and how to merge MicroProfile into EE4J (I prefer “how”, not “if”). Does each MicroProfile project become a separate EE4J project? Is MicroProfile one project that has a lightweight release process that manages multiple projects as it does today (under EE4J)? I think it is premature to have this discussion until EE4J defines its own process, although we may be able to discuss both in parallel.

> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/CAEcX1%3DvdsaAayFZY7zsHoHiTck-wiR6txGtO2UfDNx-c3hcAnA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Emily Jiang]

>>I think it is premature to have this discussion until EE4J defines its own process, although we may be able to discuss both in parallel.

Agreed. It is too early to make decision as there is no stable foundation right now for EE4J. Only after EE4J has materialised, we can revisit this topic then. We should continue moving forward in the MicroProfile path as usual and achieve our goal for 4Q (MP 1.3: Open API, Open Tracing, Rest-Client plus others. MP 2.0: CDI 2.0, JSON-P 1.1, JSON-B 1.0 and JAX-RS 2.1)

Emily

[Andy Gumbrecht]

Very much agree with John.

I do feel that MicroProfile is a distinct project, but do hope to see it fall under the EE4J umbrella as 'the defacto standard' for EE4J Microservices. Just in the same way as any other EE project is perceived - If I am going to do dependency injection then the CDI API is my starting block, if I am going to do microservices then the Microprofile API is my starting block.

It's not too early to be thinking along these lines, but yes, we'll still have to wait and see how EE4J develops.

Andy.

[Emily Jiang]

+1

[John D. Ament]

Which John? :-)

I agree with your sentiments.  In fact, I start to feel more and more that MicroProfile as defined right now is actually multiple projects, potentially with each spec representing a unique unit within the enterprise toolkit.

I'm seeing more and more inclinations of projects moving into EE4J - MVC 1.0, EclipseLink, Yasson which are already established projects under technology plan to migrate under EE4J.  Do we feel confident to make the statement that we expect to move under EE4J once the new TLP (umbrella) has been established?

John

[Kevin Sutter]

John,
I don't feel comfortable with making a statement about moving MicroProfile under EE4J...  yet...  The other projects you mentioned are or were considered to be part of Java EE (MVC, EclipseLink/JPA, and Yasson/JSON-B).  The content of MicroProfile is not considered part of Java EE.  Yes, we are advancing the Config feature through the JSR process, but it's just starting out.

So, I think we need to continue to push our MicroProfile agenda forward and let the EE4J activity play out.  There are so many questions, concerns, and issues with getting all of this Java EE material properly contributed into Eclipse.  I don't want our progress with MicroProfile to slow down and get caught up in that "mess".  Once EE4J and the underlying Java EE projects get settled down and we understand the processes being put in place, then we can determine whether MicroProfile fits in with that structure.

We have to remember that one of the reasons why MicroProfile was created in the first place was because Java EE wasn't moving quick enough in the Cloud Native / Microservice arena.  Until Java EE can prove that this problem is being resolved with the move to Eclipse, we (MicroProfile) shouldn't jump on that band wagon just yet...

My two cents worth...
Kevin

[Werner Keil]

+1

MicroProfile manifests a couple of Microservice Patterns gathered by Chris Richardson (http://microservices.io/patterns/index.html) in what currently is the most extensive catalog of its kind.

You'll find all relevant features or proposals in MicroProfile. So I would see it as a slightly more extensive continuation of all the various Java EE Design Patterns catalogs or books by Martin Fowler and many others. 

Choosing EE4J as the Top Level project instead of Technology (the default MicroProfile is currently under) would make great sense. Potentially for a few other projects like Jetty, too (which is now under the RT umbrella for "Runtime" projects or components, theoretically Glassfish might also qualify for that, but like IoT and other specific TLPs EE4J is likely to cover APIs, implementations and other things like TCKs, so drawing a line between it and "runtime" may not make that much sense there)

Werner

[Ian Robinson]

Many of us have a keen interest in both projects and it seems like there are a variety of ways they could be related together within the Eclipse foundation in the future. Its good to look at future options but we have to do some momentum-matching first (as Steve said right at the beginning of this thread). As commented several times above, MicroProfile started largely because EE lost momentum and was not addressing the needs of new microservice patterns fast enough. And we have built up MicroProfile momentum very quickly over the last year. I'd like to see EE4J accelerate out of the blocks at Eclipse and quickly deliver a baseline Java EE8 platform, including the TCKs. At *that* point EE4J will have demonstrated its own momentum and many of us in the MP community will likely have helped that happen. That's also the point when EE4J needs to go beyond EE8 compliance and look to fulfill what might otherwise have been called Java EE 9. I think we all want to see MP technologies setting that direction, with MP continuing at its current rate and pace. Remember how long it took us to get MP 1.1 out when we scrabbling around doing things for the first time, and how much more efficient we were with MP 1.2? EE4J can also build that level of efficiency but it will take a little time and I wouldn't want to see MP slow down while EE4J is dealing with its first priority of EE8 level-setting. By the time EE4J has cleared that hurdle we should have a good idea of the EE4J working practices, ideally having helped establish some of them. Then we'll know whether, for example, it makes sense to become part of the same top-level-project or some other model of working together.
- Ian

[Steve Millidge]

+1

Microprofile certainly fits within the scope of the Charter of EE4J. However EE4J only currently has a charter. I would actually like to see EE4J getting up to a regular release cadence and perhaps an alignment of working practices to a release train model like Microprofile and then revisit under which top level project Microprofile should sit. 

[Mark Little]

+1

I think there’s a UK & Brexit analogy we could also make here but I’ll refrain because I’m far more positive about the future of EE4J and MicroProfile :)

Mark.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/microprofile/2ff86610-ba03-4b87-97c5-688317df3302%40googlegroups.com.

[Werner Keil]

Yeah, not sure, if the UK and Brexit are the best analogy, but there are countries like Norway (where Ivar is from ;-) or Switzerland who are not part of the EU but have multiple bilateral agreements with it already. Plus Switzerland has a strong form of direct democracy, kind of like what we hope to get the community more involved in most decisions and shape-shifts towards a future, and of course its President rotates every few months like the EE4J PMC Chair ;-)

Werner