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hey udoprog!
"key" doesn't seem like a good tag key to me. here's why:
"unit" conveys "the value of this tag is the unit the metric is in"
"what" conveys "the value of this tag describes what the metric is in"
"server" conveys "the value of this tag describes the server this metric relates to"
"key" conveys... that it's a key, but every tag key is a key? So why would you pick the word "key" to use as tag key, and not something more clear?
and the unit standardisation just tries to capture that.> I am confident that a reasonable scheme of units would eventually grow organically from the best implementation around.
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On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Dieter Plaetinck <dieterp...@gmail.com> wrote:
hey udoprog!
"key" doesn't seem like a good tag key to me. here's why:
"unit" conveys "the value of this tag is the unit the metric is in"
"what" conveys "the value of this tag describes what the metric is in"
"server" conveys "the value of this tag describes the server this metric relates to"
"key" conveys... that it's a key, but every tag key is a key? So why would you pick the word "key" to use as tag key, and not something more clear?It is a common, required, and unique identifier defined by the user of the system meant to encapsulate what makes sense to them.It embraces that users are uneducated on the subject of semantic tagging.
and the unit standardisation just tries to capture that.> I am confident that a reasonable scheme of units would eventually grow organically from the best implementation around.
But it also establishes that any system implementing this specification has to handle the units available in it.
Any changes to the specification would therefore have to be reflected in these systems.By making unit recommended instead of mandatory and link to external specifications - like one specifying the way graph-explorer treats units - implementing systems would not be required to care.
Units could be seen as a possible extension to the specification.
On 11 Jun 2014 14:58, "Dieter Plaetinck" <dieterp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, 2 June 2014 10:50:11 UTC-4, John-John Tedro wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Dieter Plaetinck <dieterp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> hey udoprog!
>>>
>>> "key" doesn't seem like a good tag key to me. here's why:
>>> "unit" conveys "the value of this tag is the unit the metric is in"
>>> "what" conveys "the value of this tag describes what the metric is in"
>>> "server" conveys "the value of this tag describes the server this metric relates to"
>>> "key" conveys... that it's a key, but every tag key is a key? So why would you pick the word "key" to use as tag key, and not something more clear?
>>>
>>
>> It is a common, required, and unique identifier defined by the user of the system meant to encapsulate what makes sense to them.
>> It embraces that users are uneducated on the subject of semantic tagging.
>
>
>
> one of the core ideas of metrics 2.0 is that it's well worth it to spend time familiarizing yourself with the spec, recommended tags, and esp. units, and putting a bit more thought into the metric when you're adding it to your code. Because this pays off in the long run (compatibility across tools and people, clearer metrics, ability to generate graphs/dashboards, etc)
>
> I think it's as reasonable to expect modern programmers to familiarize themselves with instrumentation, just as they also typically know SQL (as opposed to just using an ORM) for example.
>
Indeed. And they will.
It is however possible to build a system that scale with the experience of user. I imagine the "what" tag will be widely (ab)used for this same reason.
>
>
>>
>> > I am confident that a reasonable scheme of units would eventually grow organically from the best implementation around.
>>
>> and the unit standardisation just tries to capture that.
>>
>
>> But it also establishes that any system implementing this specification has to handle the units available in it.
>>
>> Any changes to the specification would therefore have to be reflected in these systems.By making unit recommended instead of mandatory and link to external specifications - like one specifying the way graph-explorer treats units - implementing systems would not be required to care.
>>
>> Units could be seen as a possible extension to the specification.
>
>
> No,
> a system that implements metrics 2.0 can be agnostic of which are the different kinds of unit values. If it wants to convert units (like graph-explorer does) than it needs to be aware of prefixes (M, Ki, etc) and suffixes (/s, ps, /d) and how to convert between them, but even in this case, for a unit "M<base-unit>/s" it doesn't need to care about what the values of base-unit can be. Same idea for statsdaemon which basically just adds "/s" for rates per second and stat=<statistic> for statistical aggregates (timers),
>
I re-read the spec and I feel that what you write above has another tone about the requirements surrounding unit.
Indeed it can be wholly transparent to various parts of the system which is something I feel should be encouraged at this phase of the development. I see "unit" as always having strong dependencies to the specific components in use until there is one definition that is a clear winner (I'm not even sure it's possible to get here). Due consider that this definition will have to be implemented by multiple people and organizations for this to take traction and the momentum of a large group will always be difficult to change if it is at some point needs to.
I do see your arguments, and the effort is worthwhile. But I do feel it is worth considering not making the definitions around how units are structured part of the core spec or looser. The biggest gain for me with semantic time series was always tags, not units.
On 11 Jun 2014 14:58, "Dieter Plaetinck" <dieterp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Monday, 2 June 2014 10:50:11 UTC-4, John-John Tedro wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 3:39 PM, Dieter Plaetinck <dieterp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> hey udoprog!
>>>
>>> "key" doesn't seem like a good tag key to me. here's why:
>>> "unit" conveys "the value of this tag is the unit the metric is in"
>>> "what" conveys "the value of this tag describes what the metric is in"
>>> "server" conveys "the value of this tag describes the server this metric relates to"
>>> "key" conveys... that it's a key, but every tag key is a key? So why would you pick the word "key" to use as tag key, and not something more clear?
>>>
>>
>> It is a common, required, and unique identifier defined by the user of the system meant to encapsulate what makes sense to them.
>> It embraces that users are uneducated on the subject of semantic tagging.
>
>
>
> one of the core ideas of metrics 2.0 is that it's well worth it to spend time familiarizing yourself with the spec, recommended tags, and esp. units, and putting a bit more thought into the metric when you're adding it to your code. Because this pays off in the long run (compatibility across tools and people, clearer metrics, ability to generate graphs/dashboards, etc)
>
> I think it's as reasonable to expect modern programmers to familiarize themselves with instrumentation, just as they also typically know SQL (as opposed to just using an ORM) for example.
>
Indeed. And they will.It is however possible to build a system that scale with the experience of user. I imagine the "what" tag will be widely (ab)used for this same reason.
>
>
>>
>> > I am confident that a reasonable scheme of units would eventually grow organically from the best implementation around.
>>
>> and the unit standardisation just tries to capture that.
>>
>
>> But it also establishes that any system implementing this specification has to handle the units available in it.
>>
>> Any changes to the specification would therefore have to be reflected in these systems.By making unit recommended instead of mandatory and link to external specifications - like one specifying the way graph-explorer treats units - implementing systems would not be required to care.
>>
>> Units could be seen as a possible extension to the specification.
>
>
> No,
> a system that implements metrics 2.0 can be agnostic of which are the different kinds of unit values. If it wants to convert units (like graph-explorer does) than it needs to be aware of prefixes (M, Ki, etc) and suffixes (/s, ps, /d) and how to convert between them, but even in this case, for a unit "M<base-unit>/s" it doesn't need to care about what the values of base-unit can be. Same idea for statsdaemon which basically just adds "/s" for rates per second and stat=<statistic> for statistical aggregates (timers),
>
I re-read the spec and I feel that what you write above has another tone about the requirements surrounding unit.
Indeed it can be wholly transparent to various parts of the system which is something I feel should be encouraged at this phase of the development. I see "unit" as always having strong dependencies to the specific components in use until there is one definition that is a clear winner (I'm not even sure it's possible to get here). Due consider that this definition will have to be implemented by multiple people and organizations for this to take traction and the momentum of a large group will always be difficult to change if it is at some point needs to.
I do see your arguments, and the effort is worthwhile. But I do feel it is worth considering not making the definitions around how units are structured part of the core spec or looser. The biggest gain for me with semantic time series was always tags, not units.