Meditation practice?

[Lauris Olups]

Hi all!

I assume all people in this forum are keenly interested in the nature of nature - physical universe, consciousness, our own minds, psychology, transcendence and so on. While philosophy and logic are great tools at arriving at insight, what has been your experience with meditation practice? While under a materialist paradigm meditation is often seen as only a way to calm down and live a healthier life, I believe it could also be part of the process of Awakening and Liberation. 

Do you have a meditation practice? What does it look like? What is your motivation? What are the results?

[Peter Jones]

Meditation would be what it's all about. The rest would be just chit chat. Fun though, and useful. We can see the results of the practice in, say, the Buddha's teachings. Motivations will vary a lot but the pursuit of happiness and truth would be a common one.

Just going away so this is a quick scribble.  

[Dana Lomas]

I've never used any formal meditation practice, although tuning out thoughts and tuning inward now comes quite naturally, whenever the inclination arises. Thus, while I don't doubt its benefits, both physical and psychological, I can't speak to its association with awakening, or its pursuit. Certainly, 'realization' comes in many ways, and can seem to require no preconceived modality, or process, or preconditions. Hence, the prevalence of a spontaneous lifting of the veil, out of nowhere so to speak, in which individuals with apparently no interest or inclination towards spirituality whatsoever, never mind spiritual practice, have their seemingly well-entrenched worldviews obliterated in such a timeless moment of profound numinosity that it changes their reality utterly. While others, pursuing traditional paths and practices, along with many less conventional experiential experiments, can apparently spend a lifetime exhausting possibilities, to no avail ... or so it seems, because it could well be that exhaustion is exactly what it takes for some. As such, the apparent association of awakening to deep psychological suffering, and the existential crisis of reaching the end of the road in desperate despair,  as being the eventual catalyst, also would indicate that it is not just a function of intentional practice. So I'm not sure that it can be brought about, or made to happen through persistent meditation. But I don't rule it out either, because, as I say, there doesn't appear to be any prerequisite path to arrive at that which is never not present, or that there is anyone who can't potentially 'see' this, right here, right now, in whatever inexplicable way, including meditation.  In any case, if one feels compelled to meditate, if only for the peaceful enjoyment of stillness, or health reasons, then by all means go for it, if only for that reason alone.

[benjayk]

My meditation is more of the freestyle kind - oftentimes I am not even sure if I "really" meditate or not. I don't really use one specific practice, though I do incorporate things like paying attention to your breath.
Motivation... Well, in a way it's quite natural to me, it helps me to regulate myself and go deeper, take a break from the world.
I don't really have a goal beyond that, I feel that would be likely counterproductive anyway.

Results vary a lot, which probably is also because of my inconsistent style. Sometimes I feel more calm, more focused, more mindful, clearheaded. It can be insightful.
It can have some strange effects, though, if I try too hard or fixate on staying in a state. Sometimes it makes feel somewhat "off".
I find it quite hard to say how it affects my life as whole. I would say it's one thing among many mutually complementing experiences, definitely provides a balance to outside or thinking oriented activities.
As for awakening (whatever that really is...), it certainly one of the things that more easily lends itself to profound and potentially transformative experiences than, say, watching TV.
Yet overall my experience aligns with Dana's view, it's "just" one path.
My most profound experiences were mostly not during meditation.

[Dana Lomas]

"I don't really have a goal beyond that, I feel that would be likely counterproductive anyway." ~ Ben

This is a good point. Likewise, it seems that meditation can be a valid path, but perhaps best that there's no expectation that it must be the path, exclusive of any other possible ways. There's that proverbial zen saying: Enlightenment may be an accident, but practice makes one accident prone. But I'm not sure that it can't also be the other way around as well, in that being accident prone may incline one toward practice. Then again, I'm not sure that it is an accident. What I am sure of is that whatever Consciousness may be 'doing' in any given moment, it's never not Consciousness. :)

[Don Salmon]

I've been meditating twice daily since August 1976.  I went through about 4 years of Krishnamurti/non-dualist/Alan Watts inspired "There's no practice, it's all Consciousness therefore there's nowhere to arrive," etc etc.  Finally i looked honestly at what was going on and saw I could play this game my whole life and get nowhere, so I started meditating.  

I would say from having spoken with hundreds of people in countless groups, and met many "stars" of the non duality scene, that  yes, spontaneous awakenings occur, but if anybody tells you "it just happened" and "you don't need to do anything", 999 times out of 1000, they're lying - either to you or themselves.

It's true that the majority of people throughout history have not done formal meditation, and many have awakened through intense devotion and surrender.

But since our modern minds have an intense aversion to devotionally oriented surrender, this avenue is not available to most of us.

As far as what meditation is in its essence, it couldn't be simpler.  You have two aspects of experience - awareness and objects of awareness. Normally our attention is absorbed in the objects. Withdraw your attention from the objects and rest in just being awareness.  Voila.  That's it.

The number of people for whom that is sufficient is probably about 1 in 10 million. But that's all you need to know to understand the essence of it.  Then, when you're watching your breath, or counting breaths, or saying mantras, or observing thoughts, feelings, sensations, or visualizing mandalas, or any one of hundreds of "techniques", you can understand that it is all for one simple purpose - to be able to rest in just being Awareness.  It's easier for most with eyes closed, but ultimately, it is something to do (or be!) 24 hours a day.

If that basic description of two aspects of experience is not enough, here's an extremely simple image I just described to our Buddhist group last week, who happened to be exploring "Mahamudra" meditation, which is basically another kind of non-dual "just being" approach.

Imagine a candle flame with your eyes closed. Note again the two aspects of experience - awareness, and the image of the flame. Now, erase the flame - the Awareness remains. Stay with that Awareness.

[Don Salmon]

By the way, if you want a reference for that basic description of the essence of meditation, look at the opening of Patanjali's yoga sutras.

2: Yoga is removing attention from being absorbed in objects.

3. When attention is completely restrained from this absorption, we recognize our True Nature.

4. When attention is again absorbed, we forget who or what we really are, and are lost in Ignorance.

If you want a very simple Dzogchen technique, here is a 3 step process Alan Wallace offers:

1. Calmly observe the breath without trying to control it in any way. If thoughts come, let them come and go without being concerned or caught up in them.

When you can do this easily for at least 20-30 minutes at a time, for many days in a row, go on to the next step.

2. Let go of attention to the breath and observe thoughts, emotions, sensations coming and going.  Do not try to control anything, don't be concerned but don't get caught up in them. Just attend to them, gently, calmly. 

When you can do this easily for at least 20-30 minutes at a time, for many days in a row, go on to the next step.

3. Do not try to pay attention to the breath or to thoughts, emotions or sensations. Just be aware.  Just have a tiny portion of your attention committed to noting when you get caught up in linking up thoughts.  Very gently. almost effortlessly let go of the thoughts and go back to just being Awareness.

When you can do this easily for at least 30 minutes to an hour, for many days in a row, go on to the next step.  your mind should be almost entirely thought free to really do this well.

4. Turn your attention around, look within and ask, "Who" (or what) is looking?"

This, Alan says, will take you all the way. 

[Gaurav De]

My two cents on meditation involving breathing. I came under the grips of obsession with breath when I practised some breathing yoga and mindful meditation observing breath. The thought was so intense that every time my focus would shift to my breath when I am idle. I know this is my obsession or you may call ocd which compelled me but I think such mindful meditation may not be suitable for candidates like me :)

I struggled with it for a month to normalize my thinking that breathing is an involuntary process. Everytime my mind shifted to my breath, it used to feel I am doing the things voluntarily and that used to strike a fear.

When the very process of stomach blowing up and down like a ballon used to feel like a manual process making me uncomfortable.  That may sound funny but it happen to those who are obsessive thinkers.

would love to hear others experiences 

[Don Salmon]

Hi Gaurav De:

If you want to try something other than breathing, you might want to try the awareness meditation I described above.

As far as breathing, it's not about being an obsessive thinker - a large number of people have that problem initially when trying watching the breath.

One of the simplest solutions - for many, if not all - is to do conscious, intentional breathing exercises before trying to watch the breath on its own.

One that many people find deeply relaxing is the "Kriya breath."  One reason the mind keeps churning out thoughts is that your autonomic nervous system (the sympathetic branch) is all revved up. It's extremely difficult to meditate when your body is in this condition.  If you want to try it: Focus on the base of your spine.  Very gently constrict the muscles of your throat, which will make it easier to breathe slowly and gently.  Now imagine as you inhale you're pulling the breath up through the center of your body, up to your head and as you exhale let the breath descend slowly back down the middle of your body.

If this doesn't make sense, you might enjoy trying our guided breathing videos: http://www.remember-to-breathe.org/Breathing-Videos.html   We lead you step by step in a practice called "ocean breathing' (which is that same gently constricted throat-muscle-breathing - it's traditionally called "ujayi breathing.").   

Try it, and let us know if it makes it any easier for you.  The main thing, if you follow along in the 8 minute video near the top of the page, is after several minutes of following the moving image, and breathing along with it, you close your eyes and just relax, letting the breath flow on its own. If you've followed along successfully, you're now meditating!

[benjayk]

Garauv, I experienced something very similar. It made me quite anxious.
I even experienced it when my body was asleep, and my automatic breathing and my anxious manual breathing "collided".
It actually felt painful, as if my lung will explode or implode. Or it feels as if my breathing is a task that takes effort. Weird.

Don, I can relate to "it couldn't be simpler".
It does feel quite simple when it's a good meditation (and really it's applies to more than just meditation), but strangely that's where doubt and insecurity tend to come in.
A bit of trust is needed perhaps?

[Gaurav De]

Thanks Don

my issue was that of an obsession because the mind out create troubled thoughts circling the breathing process . It would make it appear as if the whole breathing process is non autonomous. It shook up my sympathetic brach of  my ANS :)

I needs some logical thinking and convincing to drift the  mind away. gosh! it was difficult initially. :)

[Gaurav De]

Yes Benjayk, trust is very important here. Getting back to the basics and self talking that it is entirely autonomous

I believe breathing exercises should come with a disclaimer :)

[Gaurav De]

Any kind of advice you all can give me here to prevent such obnoxious thoughts, I will greatly appreciate :)

[Dana Lomas]

It does appear to be a question of focus. As always, what is focused on determines what is missed. If one's primary focus is on the very exclusive sphere of consciousness that is perceived as the physical world 'out there' then surely meditation serves the function of altering that focus, and thus allowing the possibility of 'seeing' that which is missed -- albeit never not present. As such, I tend not to focus on the breath as it still feels like a part of the physical self, associated with its realm. However, I don't generally have a problem relaxing. So as Don points out, one can see how it would serve the function of getting into a state of relaxation required to slow down the thinking process.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 8:30:45 PM UTC-4, Lauris Olups wrote:

[Don Salmon]

I've observed over the years that one of the things that gets left out in our quick-fix consumer culture is preparation.

This may be one of the less palatable aspects of preparation for our modern mind, but relaxation, deep breathing, etc are not the first step in preparation in most meditation traditions - it's ethics.  Put simply, if you're angry, depressed, anxious, resentful, full of cravings, your autonomic nervous system is going to be out of balance and your thoughts will likely be going haywire.  There's no quick fix for this, but a good daily practice of going over one's day, recognizing where one has acted inappropriately and making a sincere, genuine resolve to act with more kindness, empathy, respect and compassion, and to be more honest as well (sort of the "anti-Trump" basis for ethics), can go a long way to making meditation easier.

That's why Patanjali makes ethics the first 2 steps of his ashtanga (8 fold) path.

Step 3 is Asana.  This doesn't mean twisting yourself into a pretzel, it is simply a relaxed, comfortable pose. So if your body is tight, your mind is going to be more obsessive.  Learn some good, deep relaxation techniques. My favorite is 61 points (www.swami.com - search "61 points).  You can do quick 1 minute relaxations by focusing on the head, then torso, then lower body, and doing a few, relaxed deep breaths and making a special intention to relax on the exhalation.

Step 4 is breathing.  Now that you've established a basis for a decent, calm, responsible, life, and you've relaxed your body a bit, some simple alternate nostril or spinal breathing or ocean (ujayi) breathing, for a minute or two, without strain, makes it MUCH easier to stop obsessive thinking.

Step 5 is withdrawal of attention from over involvement with the senses ("pratyahara").  If you're constantly obsessively dwelling on something someone said to you, or the food you're about to eat, or the cigarette you're trying not to smoke, you're going to be doing everything but meditating (i.e. obsessive thinking).

Step 6 - concentration. Here's something people don't talk about much.  Our modern society is so left brain focused (narrow, linear, analytic thinking - what Bernardo calls intellectual fundamentalism, and which is really the root of scientism and materialism) that when we try to concentrate, we do it in a narrow, ego-driven way. This, Gaurav De, more than anything else, even the tight muscles or strained breathing, could be the reason your thoughts get compulsive when you try to meditate. See if you can relax your focus, and allow everything into your awareness. Don't try to control anything, don't make any effort at all. Just get used to sitting and doing nothing, not even concerned if your mind is all over the place.  If you can really relax and do this for awhile,  you may be surprised to find your mind is calming down and slowing on its own.  Les Fehmi taught one woman, an emergency room nurse, to shift her attention from left brain to open, relaxed right brain focus. When she came to him, she was having daily panic attacks, terribly painful migraine headaches, very troubling indigestion, severe depression and a host of other physical and psychological problems. They were all gone in 3 weeks.

Step 7: Meditation! (notice this is the next to last step. Most people have trouble because they try and start at this step and for 99% of people, this guarantees failure).  Meditation is defined in the yoga sutras as an effortless flow of attention toward one object.  This is "calm abiding" in Tibetan Buddhism, and it invovles a completely relaxed, effortless attention to the flow of breath, or the contents of the mind, or simply resting in Awareness.  Being Awareness.

Step 8: samadhi.  When you can do step number 7 for several hours without a break, and without any tension or effort, you will be in a state of complete stillness, not a thought coming into the mind.  Then you turn your attention around and ask (non verbally, of course! - "inquire" might be a better word) what is it that's looking?

What happens after this can't be put into words. Never has, never will.  

[Don Salmon]

Hmmm, this might be a good post to submit....

[Dana Lomas]

Ultimately though, if someone isn't ready for this, it all seems like a moot point. Might as well being waiting for an apple tree to blossom in the winter. And so it is with the seasons of the soul. Mind you, still a good plan to nurture that tree until the time comes :)

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 8:30:45 PM UTC-4, Lauris Olups wrote:

[Don Salmon]

Hi Dana:

About being "ready" - while it's true that probably a relatively small number of people are "ready" for meditation aimed at awakening to Reality, there are hundreds of thousands of elementary school children in at least several thousand schools in most developed countries of the world who are quite comfortably learning basic focusing, breathing, relaxation and other related techniques.  And everyone can benefit from ethics training (nowadays known as "social emotional learning" in the education world).  

I think having a flexible view of what "meditation" means can be helpful.  As far as numbers go, in the US alone, there's about 20-30 million people doing some form of hatha yoga, 30-40 million doing some form of meditation, and close to 50 million who do some basic breathing exercises. 

Andrew Weil, who has been teaching integrative medicine to millions of people for more than 3 decades, says that by far, the most popular thing he's ever taught is a simple breathing technique.  Breath in 4 counts, hold your breath 8 counts, and exhale slowly 8 counts.  Do it 4 times in a row, that's it.  He says he's never had an adverse reaction.  

If you want to try this, you can try here: http://www.remember-to-breathe.org/Breath-Holding-Video.html (scroll down past the first video, and try the one on the left first - it has guided instructions)

[Dana Lomas]

Kayaking on calm open water was my preferred technique ... something about the rhythmic motion and the expansive spaciousness I suppose, sky above, sea below, blending into a featureless horizon, being conducive to that effortless awareness of which you speak, and just being that. :)

[Don Salmon]

Hi again Dana!

one more distinction might be helpful here.   People hear the word "meditation" and immediately assume it refers to a specific practice.  When they can't "meditate" they often suggest other "methods" or practices - kayaking is one, knitting, gardening, etc.  often this becomes simply a form of relaxation, which is wonderful, but may not have much to do with what "meditation" in patanjali's sense of "dhyana"

I find it helpful to distinguish between "method" (kayaking, breathing, mantra, etc) and 'state'.

Dan Siegel's "wheel of awareness' is something I've found to be extremely helpful in regard to this.

imagine your consciousness is like a wheel.  in the center, there is just being aware. Arrayed around the rim of the wheel are all the things we're aware OF - outer things made up of what we see, hear, taste, etc (this has the added benefit of making an idealist worldview explicit - notice there's nothing here about material objects existing outside awareness; imply sense objects; objects which have their existence in relation to Awareness).  And inner "things" of thought, feeling, etc.

Anything that helps you get back to the center, to view everything on the rim calmly, with non-attached equanimity, is 'meditation.' So if for you, dana, kayaking does that, great. If for Gaurav De breathing doesn't work, perhaps kayaking, or knitting, or reading, or any number of things. Most people who have practiced have found what we call the "technique" of meditation to be one of the single most effective ways to learn to always center your consciousness at the "center" of the wheel, but it is much less important what technique you practice than re-centering (what we call on our website, metaphorically "remembering to breathe").

So in summary, if you find kayaking, gardening, breathing, saying a mantra, surrendering to God, painting, dancing, playing chess, riding a motorcycle, etc etc helps you shift attention back to center, whatever works is fine. You may find (you'd be extremely rare, but it's possible) that just understanding this is enough to get you back to center.  And if you can stay there for a sufficient amount of time (the Buddha took 7 years), you'll awaken. 

[Dana Lomas]

Yes, agreed, all valid points. Nowadays, I may be mastering the art of doing nothing whatever I happen to be doing ... but it feels right to do it nonetheless.
,

[Gaurav De]

Thanks Don. So much resonates with me. For me reading is meditating. Sometimes I just sit quiet and try to focus back to my inner awareness . Nothing is impossible. So I will not give up on breathing techniques :)

[Don Salmon]

Looking forward to hearing your experience with the breathing videos.

Seriously, if you try them and have any difficulty, please let me know.  We are constantly modifying the videos and the text accompanying them - any suggestions you have would be most welcome. http://www.remember-to-breathe.org/Breathing-Videos.html 

www.remember-to-breathe.org

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[Gaurav De]

Thanks Don :)

I tried the 8 min video and it was very good. Is the Oceanic breathing akin to inhaling like "Bastrika" (in Sanskrit)?

Also how do you recommend the path to progress with your other videos. Meaning , how many days you need to practice the 8 min video before you move on to other ones.

If you call out those best practices in your website , it would help.

regards, Gaurav

www.remember-to-breathe.org

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[Don Salmon]

Hi,

Thank you so much for trying them out.  Actually, bhastrika is a much more energetic breathing technique (we call it "fast belly breathing" - we have an audio but haven't yet put it up on the site).

Actually, i'm working on some more comments about the videos which we'll put up on the site. But as far as progressing, we probably won't be going into too much detail on the site itself. We are in the midst of creating e-courses for what is going to be our "Shopify" online store.  

This is partly, of course, because we're going to be going "commercial" with this - but also, i've found, in the course of investigating how people use meditation tools, that people most prefer to be guided through the whole process, step by step.  

You could actually, by studying our website on your own - particularly the "quick start" pages - get enough for free to take you through years of meditation practice. But with an e-course, you get one or more letters a week guiding you step by step through the process.

This is kind of like what Fitness Blender does. They have over 300 free fitness videos. They are among the best i've ever seen. You just go to  youtube, look for them, and you've got all you ever need for getting in shape. no gym necessary, no fitness coaches, expensive exercise classes, etc.  And they're available for free, to the entire world population,

And how many people exercise regularly?  In the US, it's about 15%.  Why?  The resources are there.  People need guidance and support.

Same with meditation. There's enough on our site alone, but if not that, there's the whole web. I do think ours is one of the best approaches out there (if not, we wouldn't have put it together:>)).  But still, I talk to people who have taught meditation for some time, and they admit they need encouragement and support to keep on with practice.

So, we'll be putting an e-course together.

In the meantime, you might want to check out our quick start pages.

In a word:

1. Stop for a minute or two several times a day, in the midst of whatever you're doing, and spend a few minutes doing slow, even breathing (in 4 counts, out 4 counts).  If you're having ANY trouble or discomfort, stop. It should feel VERY good, if not, stop and just hang out.  If you need some support for this, watch a breathing video (I personally, despite 40 years of 2x a day meditation, which i nowadays almost always find enjoyable and easy, I still find it very helpful to watch one of our breathing videos during a break.  Actually, I personally find it more of a relaxing break to stand and do tai chi movements to the video while breathing - we plan to make a video of that too at some point!

2. If you want to start a regular practice, choose  a regular time - for most people, right after waking or right before sleep is the most likely time to be "regular" about it.  Do some stretching, splash some water on  your face (or better still, shower first), read something inspiring - a paragraph or two, same thing for at least a week at a time if possible, arrange a beautiful space where you have pictures of nature, a candle, or something that inspires you).  Don't spend tons of money getting fancy meditation tools off the net.  We have a small table, some artificial (yes, really!) flowers that are beautiful, a few pictures, a small Buddha statue, and I sit on old pillows I've arranged that are very comfortable - Jan sits in a chair - doesn't cost a penny extra to do something simple like this.  sometimes we just take an old beach chair and go down to the French Broad River and sit outside by the water).

don't force yourself.  Do some breathing, relax, read the inspiring passage, then sit for 5 or 10 minutes.

Understand why you're doing this. if it's just for relaxation or stress management, don't pretend it's spiritual. That's perfectly fine.  If you have a genuine spiritual aspiration (it's infinitely rarer than you might think; so be careful not to fool yourself or it will get you in trouble) this aspiration itself will lead you to whatever you need. 

in the meantime, understanding the brain, establishing a strong ethical foundation to your life - being kind, honest, empathic, caring, taking responsibility for your actions and doing whatever you can to make the world a better place - all of this is INFINITELY more important than "techniques."

Ultimately, if you still want to understand the essence, you can apply it any time of day, whether in formal meditation or walking around or working or making love.  Step back into pure Consciousness, and attend to all you do, think, feel and say from that center.

This is what we refer to on our site as "remembering to breathe."

www.remember-to-breathe.org

regards, Gaurav

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[Gaurav De]

Thanks for the wisdom Don 

Agreed 100% with what you said.

As for the Sanskirt word, I mispoke earlier , Its not bastrika but Ujjaini I suppose. I enjoyed that very much.

www.remember-to-breathe.org

regards, Gaurav

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[Don Salmon]

yes, ujayii.  

Bhastrika is known in English as the "bellows" breath - I find it unpleasant actually - it's forceful inhale AND forceful exhale. The one we teach is kapalabhati, which I love doing.  you can do it standing (they teach it this way at Kripalu) thrusting your arms out as you exhale. You slowly, gently inhale then forcefully exhale.  Very invigorating in the middle of the day when you're overcome by computer fatigue.

in fact, wait....

ok, i just tried it - works better if you ball up your hands into fists and kind of pump down on each exhalation.  If you've never tried it, don't try more than 4 times. They say, unless you're very very very careful, no need to ever do it more than 16 times in a row.   

Mostly, breathing is dangerous for people who do it 30 minutes or more a day - you can get all kinds of hallucinations, delusions, etc.  Stan Grof made it a core component of his "holotropic breathing", where people do extended slow breathing for an hour or more.  He was deliberately trying to mimic the effects of LSD. Incredibly dangerous, to my mind.

But brief breathing, from 30 seconds to a few minutes - not a problem if you're relaxed and pay attention to the effects.  

have fun!

www.remember-to-breathe.org

www.remember-to-breathe.org

regards, Gaurav

www.remember-to-breathe.org

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[Gaurab Dey]

Bastrika can be usedas a substitute to Coffee or redbull . 

Disclaimer: do not try this before bed  :)

[Don Salmon]

YES!!   (shhh, that's my marketing plan:>))

www.remember-to-breathe.org

[Gaurav De]

Recently I was reading an article where it is mentioned that each cell in our body is conscious and which makes sense. I would like to think that if we talk to our body regularly we can attain that state of being. This goes for healing as well. Adding this daily practice in meditation would help immensely.

Regards

Gaurav

[Don Salmon]

Hi, yes, there's a lot of conventional, well-accepted research that there is a sense in which there is an intelligence - though not "self-conscious" - in each cell of the body. This aligns with research done by a japanese scientist (forgot the name at the moment) who demonstrated intelligence in one-celled organisms.  you may have heard of Candace Pert's term, "molecules of emotion" which refers to various hormones and other chemicals that travel throughout the body and appear to carry something like emotional memories.  

Dan Siegel refers to his approach as "neurobiology" because, as he puts it, the entire body functions as a kind of "brain", not just the nerves in the skull.  He adds, "interpersonal" neurobiology because our mind-body is constantly interacting with the nervous system of others.  In fact, his "highest" level of integration is what he calls "transpirational integration" - which for him means we are not isolated brains, nor mind-body organisms, nor mind-body-other person beings, but the entire universe constitutes a unity.  This is where clinical practice begins to meet philosophy.  Siegel is quite aware - though he doesn't mention it often in his clinical writings - of the implications of this view for a non materialistic psychiatry/psychology.

Times they are a-changin...

[Gaurav De]

Right Don. Agree with you. btw,  What is the difference between "self conscious" and intelligent. 

Bernardo also spoke about it in his book BPB that memories could possibly be stored in the cells and various tissues across the body(if they are locally stored)

This thought occurred to me recently . When each organ of our body does its job then they have to be self aware of conscious. Then I chanced upon an article many days later coincidentally resonating my view.

Thanks for your views

G

[Don Salmon]

That's a very interesting question, distinguishing self awareness and intelligence.

There's the mainstream scientific point of view, among biologists, ethologists, anthropologists and others.  As far as i know, there are mammals and primates (and possibly African gray parrots!) who display some self awareness. The most common test is the mirror test - chimps pass this fairly easily; they know that the animal in the mirror is "themselves."  In other words, they attach some kind of separate identity to their individual physical body and a fairly simple conglomeration of emotional/mental traits. 

Franz de Waal has extended this view a bit and talks about the experience of being "centered."  Evidently, reptiles, amphibians and even fish - which show no evidence of self-awareness in the conventional sense, but somehow experience themselves as being physically located in a particular place.

in contrast, intelligence has been found in evolution down to one celled organisms. Amoeba, for example, have clearly displayed intelligence means of seeking a food source, and overcoming obstacles places in their way in a creative fashion. 

Of course, "self-awareness" here is not "Self-Awareness."  Except for a few instances of some animals referred to by Ramana Maharshi and a few others like him, to the best of my understanding, awakening requires the refinement of the prefrontal cortex (the 'buddhi" in traditional indian psychology), something which does not exist in any other animal - or at least, not developed to the level of complexity in humans. 

It's the buddhi which allows us to withdraw our attention from getting caught up or absorbed (obfuscated) in objects and return to Self awareness.  This can be done through basic discrimination (not involving "effort" in the ordinary sense; just being choicelessly aware of where attention is caught); through "meditation" practices, or through pure, heart-focused, unstructured devotion.  However it's done, the process is the same - as Patanjali describes in his opening verses, or we describe in "the core": http://www.remember-to-breathe.org/The-Core.html

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[Gaurab Dey]

makes sense. intelligence is much like a programmed way of behaviour. So we can perhaps induce self awareness in the cells by bringing our conscious mind in connection with the obfuscated mind. 

[RHC]

Franz de Waal has extended this view a bit and talks about the experience of being "centered."  Evidently, reptiles, amphibians and even fish - which show no evidence of self-awareness in the conventional sense, but somehow experience themselves as being physically located in a particular place.

This is very interesting Don.  "Centered" is an excellent descriptor for what the equivalent of self-awareness might be for the obfuscated portion of our consciousness.  I suspect animals do have a sense of self-awareness (regardless of mirror interaction) that incorporates centeredness with an understanding of me and not-me.  Without awareness of that distinction how could a volitional being be volitional?  The further question of the recursiveness, if any, of animal style self awareness is open I think.  

A true story:

When I was a kid we lived in a house with a gate across our driveway at the end of which was a sidewalk that crossed it. After school I would sometimes sit on our front porch which was next to the gate and read.  For a few days in a row I noticed that a black cat would walk by our house on the sidewalk and inevitably, our dog would go berserk, sticking her snout between the gate bars as best she could, barking and snapping.  The first time this happened the cat ran away, the second time the same reaction.  The third time the cat seems to have figured out that the dog couldn't get out of the gate.  As I watched, the cat very deliberating walked to center of the driveway, (still on the sidewalk), sat down and seemingly oblivious to our dog, who is now apoplectic, started to clean itself without a care in the world.  After doing that a few moments the cat looks up, directly at the dog, casually, oh so casually, gets up, walks right up to her and smacks her in the face! Turns around and gracefully walks to the sidewalk, makes a 90 degree turn and keeps on walking down the street.  Our dog's reaction (and mine) was complete stunned silence.  The whole thing was so deliberate and planned its very hard to imagine some kind of self-awareness was not going on in there.  But of course it is by definition impossible for me to imagine a cat's conscious perspective.  : ) 

[Don Salmon]

yes, isn't that great about cats.  I suppose any of us cat owners have a million stories. Here's one of my favorites.

We brought our 3 cats, Lexie, Aramie and Lea, from New York City to a 200 acre nature preserve in South Carolina back in 2001 (left 2 months after the towers were hit).  As you can imagine, they were ecstatic to be outside - hours of chasing birds, chameleons, frogs and whatever.  

Every Saturday morning, we would go from our apartment down to the "main house" for a business meeting - probably at least 300 or 400 yards away.  One morning, we had forgotten to let all of our cats back into the apartment.  So we're all sitting in the business meeting, and we see Lea scratching at the window of the room where we were meeting. To get there, she had to walk around the house - a long way around, and figure out where the small room was that we were meeting. She'd poke her head at the window and meow and scratch some more. 

So we went out to see what was going on and she patiently walked us back around the house, back up to the apartment, where Lexie and Aramie were patiently waiting by the closed sliding glass door.  

But then, Lea was also one of the only cats I've ever seen who could be walked on a leash - we used to walk her on 9th street and 2nd avenue, around to 10th street and back to our apartment.  

As far as volition, Antonio Damasio had a chart in one of his books, showing how emotion and volition "evolve" in animals, from one celled organisms up to humans.  What looks like intentional behavior is probably almost entirely mechanical for one celled and primitive multi cellular organisms.  As you go "up the scale" (any physicalists here want to get into an argument about the "scala natura" in evolution?) you find greater centeredness but for a long way reactions are still mostly mechanical - in other words, there's almost no space between the stimulus and response.

When they study the animals very closely, there's a profound gap between reptiles and mammals - suddenly you can see the kind of planning you saw in your cat in wolves, squirrels (who can store up to 30,000 nuts in different places over the winter and remember every single one), crows (like the Japanese crows who figured out that by putting hard-to-crack nuts along the crosswalks in Tokyo, the cars would crack the nuts then they would swoop in to scoop up the cracked nuts), etc.

But as far as all the studies I've seen, the greatest capacity for pausing between stimulus and response is in humans, due to the mediating factor of the prefrontal cortex. if you view this symbolically, you can see different aspects of consciousness or mind unfolding over the course of evolution, and rather than some blind, meaningless meander through creation ("meander" is Daniel Dennett's word) suddenly every aspect of the body, behavior and environment all of living creatures becomes filled with profound, ultimately un-verbalizable wonder. 

As William Blake put it - "The body is that portion of the soul which can be perceived by the five senses - in this age."  If sciborg is around here, Blakes' 3 word closing - "in this age" - may help you understand why "psi is so shy" - at least, in this age:>))) (to be pedantically obvious, in other ages - and in my opinion, within the next 100 years, all this is going to change.  The "world" that will be "known" (felt/seen/experienced/grokked) in the "future" (whatever that is!) will be so infinitely different from what we now take to be "world" that if we suddenly ended up "there" (wherever "there" is or will be or was) we might not even be aware of it.

www.remember-to-breathe.org