Idealism, Ethics, and Neo-Advaita

[Rigpa]

Hi all,

Tonight I did some exploring online on the topic of non-duality and I kept coming across articles warning me about the dangers of "Neo-Advaita." I've seen these articles before, but never paid them much attention to them until tonight. 

There was a lot of talk about moral relativism, cult-like behavior, spiritual laziness. Tony Parsons name has come up a lot, which funny enough somebody "warned" me about him when I was first getting into non-duality. I pretty much stay away from him. One of the things that surprised me was that Rupert Spira and his teacher Francis Lucille were added to the Wikipedia list for Neo-Advaita teachers. I love Rupert's work and his message resonates with me deeply. A lot of the criticism for NA seems to talk about how the teachers are all ignorant, spiritual lazy, and don't know what they're really doing. Not to mention they are excluding crucial parts of Advaita Vedanta teachings. But, I don't get this from Rupert at all. The only thing I can see that follows their point is Rupert did say once that meditation is not needed for self-realization. 

I'm a bit confused because I've read the following -

Gangaji has said: "There is nothing that keeps you from realization of your inherent, permanent, present freedom except your imagination that somebody or something is keeping you from that."

and even Adyashanti has said that realization is not a difficult thing and he points to non-dualist teachings all the time. Isn't this what is said in traditional Vedanta as as well? 

I'm reading a book right now called Instant Presence by Enza Vita and in it she mentions frequently that we're already enlightened. It's a great read so far and the ideas in it resonate with me. Is this a dangerous path to go down though?

Now, I'll talk about one of the biggest criticisms of Neo-Advaita. One opponent of NA has said the following online mockingly: 

"No real work on oneself is necessary, only a constant repetitive denial of one's identity and the 'understanding' that the ego and all (and everything) that happens (essence and belief systems included) is 'just an illusion'. Everything ‘just happens, there is no path’, so there is nothing to do."

BUT, isn't this what all of the non-duality teachers are saying? Isn't this the truth they are pointing to? One of the biggest takeaways for me from Idealism/non-duality is that I am consciousness. I am pure awareness and I am NOT my thinking, my problems, my self, my neuroses. 

Another thing the author says is that NA teachers try to trick their followers by saying that the ego doesn't exist. Again, I'm pretty sure I've heard BK say that the ego doesn't exist, but Bernardo is far from a moral relativist. 

For those interested (and if it's ok) I'll post the article here: Neo-Advaita Demystified

So, where do ethics come into play in Idealism? All of the criticism for Neo-Advaita (and this includes Rupert Spira) says that they are moral relativists and some bordering on Nihilism. My interest in Idealism is certainly not so I can isolate myself, deny compassion & morals, and reach some sort of immature version of enlightenment. I want to experience true self-realization, love others, and as close as I can know the true nature of reality. 

That's all for now. On a more positive note, I bought three new books tonight :)

Falling into Grace by Adyashanti

The Nature of Consciousness by Rupert Spira

The Ultimate Medicine by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Stoic Warrior]

If you read into the lives of any of these teachers, you will see that each of them came to their realizations in a variety of ways and different time spans.  

For example, it took Rupert nearly 20 years to get a life-changing enlightenment experience through Advaita Vedanta.  Adyashanti meditated countless hours in his Zen training before having his two experiences that ended his seeking.  

In contrast, Ram Dass and Shinzen Young experienced transcendental states with psychedelics prior to ever becoming masters.  Eckhart Tolle came to his understandings primarily through psychological torment.  Sometimes, there are the lucky few like Jan Esmann who have entered these states effortlessly in childhood and adulthood.

Thanks to science, we are also lucky enough to have a "Red Pill" to have the ultimate enlightenment experience romanticized and talked about by all the sages.  The video is a little long, but you can get the basic idea in first five minutes or so.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWSOl62memg

The key here is to keep an open mind and see what works for you.  If you get results from Neo Advaita and its teachings, then continue.  If it leads you to a dead end, then it is time to move on. 

[Ben Iscatus]

I guess the "spiritual laziness" idea is sour grapes from the indirect path adherents, who spend years deliberately not getting it (because they've always been told they're not ready for it) ;-)   

[Dana Lomas]

I'm not sure that any prescribed practice or effort, meditation or otherwise, induces Realization. However, since Realization is the freedom of the natural flow of the Tao, absent exclusive identification syndrome, then insofar as effortless practice may evoke that natural state, however fleeting it may be, it seems that at the very least it would be nourishing, if not solely sufficient. In any case, I feel Realization is destined, but how any given journey may unfold is as unknowable as the path any bobble tossed into a river may follow to the sea -- notwithstanding that people-like bobbles can seemingly swim against the current, until exhaustion sets in ... eventually giving way to effortlessness.

On Sunday, November 19, 2017 at 12:34:56 AM UTC-5, Rigpa wrote:

[Scott Roberts]

Rigpa,

I think that Ken Wilber has the right response, namely that Waking Up is not all there is to be concerned with. There is also Growing Up to do. There are levels of consciousness: gross, subtle, causal, Emptiness, Union of Emptiness of Form. But there are also intellectual and moral developmental levels of the individual and society: sensory, magical, mythical, rational, pluralist (post-modern), then several Integral stages. There are various ways to describe both of these sets of levels, but the point is that one can Wake Up from different Growing Up stages. For example, the bigoted mythical level person can become Enlightened, and remain bigoted. So, even if Enlightenment might be (so it is said) "effortless", we still need to Grow Up, and that takes time and effort.

A related point is that if Waking Up is all that matters, then all the Ignorance that we have been living through becomes meaningless. My view is that there is a purpose to spending lives in ignorance, and that is so we may become individual creative agents, and not just dissolve back into the Godhead.

On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 7:34:56 PM UTC-10, Rigpa wrote:

I'm reading a book right now called Instant Presence by Enza Vita and in it she mentions frequently that we're already enlightened.

Then where's the bliss?

 

"No real work on oneself is necessary, only a constant repetitive denial of one's identity and the 'understanding' that the ego and all (and everything) that happens (essence and belief systems included) is 'just an illusion'. Everything ‘just happens, there is no path’, so there is nothing to do."

BUT, isn't this what all of the non-duality teachers are saying? Isn't this the truth they are pointing to? One of the biggest takeaways for me from Idealism/non-duality is that I am consciousness. I am pure awareness and I am NOT my thinking, my problems, my self, my neuroses. 

There is a dualism here: pure awareness on the one hand, your problems, self, and neuroses on the other. This view is what comes from those who realize Emptiness, but not yet the Union of Emptiness and Form.

 

[Dana Lomas]

I feel it is true, we are practicing being creative agents. And the creative process seems very much about countless practiced efforts at creating effortlessly :)

[Joe Frank]

If you want to get a really thorough look at how Neo-Advaita stacks up against Traditional Advaita, I recommend "Back To The Truth: 5000 Years of Advaita" by Dennis Waite.  It sorts out how the two differ, and includes lots of quotes from Neo and Trad teachers of Advaita, most of the ones I had heard of anyway and many more I hadn't.  Extremely in depth overall and giving you a flavour of many different Advaitins, and pretty cheap on kindle.

[Mark Robert]

I agree with Scott that KW has the best response to this. I'd also add that the instant vs. gradualist debate is itself ancient. In the cultural milieu of 8th century Tibet, it was "settled" when the Indian scholar-practitioner Kamalashila, arguing for the gradual approach of developing all the virtues, defeated the Chinese Zen Master Hashang Mahayana, who argued for realization alone, right now. Of course the real story is more complex than that. In some sense, that debate is an argument for the necessity of both exoteric and esoteric teaching and practice, because people come to the table with such wildly various abilities and karmic loads. 

I view BK's philosophy, for example, as part of a gradualist approach that is necessary for the current milieu. It's a dialogue with materialism that starts where materialism is. In general, what one says depends on who one is talking to. If it doesn't, then one is just some sort of parrot or loudspeaker lacking sensitivity. As far as I'm concerned, the exact matching of activity or approach to need is compassion. So when I encounter a "master" who only sings the single tune of instantaneous enlightenment, then I am not impressed. Reality is beyond instantaneous or gradual.

There is also the extremely important issue of ethics (see Mingyur Rinpoche's recent teaching here). So many gurus fall back to earth because of self-delusion. In some sense, the entirety of the spiritual path is about self-delusion. What's the cure for self-delusion? I think it's more than just "enlightenment" as we currently understand that term. We now know that there is not just one illusory self to see through, but many "autonomous complexes," to use Jung's term, which hide out in the shadows of the psyche and take the driver's seat of the bodymind at the most inopportune moments. To deal with these impulses requires a highly developed conscience, as well as a very kind nature, humor, and a willingness to admit having been a fool. Becoming a well-rounded person in that way is developmental growth, which is never instant.

The issue is particularly pressing these days, because there appear to be many people ready for conceptually sophisticated teachings, at the same time that new technologies bring new options. I clicked Stoic Warrior's "Red Pill" link and my first impression was that it appeared to be a chat between Lucifer and a cosmic baby :) -- just my imagination,of course, but first impressions are useful information, especially when the discussion is about a single bite which brings enlightenment. (And to be clear here, those guys seemed good natured and excited about their path, and this is no comment on its value for them.) Following KW, there will be an energy/matter "exterior" correllate to any "interior" mental state, including a nondual one. So I don't doubt that you can take an enlightenment pill and have an experience that way. Part of me wants to try it, part not; I like having profound experiences, but on the other hand, I find that I've not even fully integrated the ones I've had.

There are some interesting warnings in pop culture myths. The Hulk gets his power from gamma rays (see a curious advaita reflection here), but with another man you get an Abomination instead. See also the history of the Symbiotes (Klyntar), source of the black Spiderman, Venom (and see John Carpenter's The Thing for a creepy shadow of the same idea.) The basic idea is that knowledge and power makes us more of what we are, and if there are impurities left over, they will be magnified. Part of the idea of the gradual path is to match what is possible developmentally so that we really make Buddhas and not cosmic apes. There is no pill for integrity, and no instant integrity, just the challenging path of integrating ever more reality. And if you don't, the effects can be more serious the "higher" you go. 

[Ben Iscatus]

Well said, Mark. Wise!

[Rigpa]

Thank you to all that have responded. Mark, I definitely agree with you and I would like to add that I am not looking for a quick fix. I'm in a weird spot in my life. I'm not happy with my job, I want more, possibly looking to be self-employed, but either way, I know that I want more than to work minimum wage for an employer. Heck, I think I want more than promoting within a retail environment as well. But therein lies the dilemma. Pretty much all of my work experience is retail based and I'm not sure how to get out of the loop. 

I can see the "dangers" with the spiritual path and self delusion however, I'm not sure what to do about this. I can see in myself that the more I've delve into these books, I have experienced states of happiness, occasional peace & calm, sometimes irritation and moments of depression. 

So many of the books say that this is all that there is. They say that all is consciousness. They say that there is nothing to do. They talk about eliminating or seeing the trick of the ego. This is all great, but sometimes I feel more stuck than when I started. For example, when I moved to the city I'm currently living in I had dreams to start a craft brewery. I've had dreams about everything from making documentary films, performing music professionally, opening a recording studio, to writing screenplays. As you can see, Im not sure if I want my ego to disappear...

...At least not all the way. I remember reading "The Surrender Experiment" by Michael Singer and in it he talks about how he meditated everyday and he just wanted to disappear into the woods until he experienced true bliss and enlightenment. However, life had a different plan for him. He vowed to say "yes" to whatever life brought in his path and for those that have read the book know he ended up creating a multi-billion dollar health insurance business among many other amazing things. 

Really when it comes down to it, I just want to know my place in life. Ego or not, I don't want it to be working a retail service job. I am so desperately ready to surrender and see what life has in store for me. 

Concerning Neo-Advaita, I want to point out that I am not interested in it. Only, wanted to point out that I love Rupert's work and he seemed to be lumped into the dangerous bunch, which kind of confused me a bit.

And so if we all agree that there is not only waking up to do, but growing up - How do I go about growing up? Serious question. I love to read so if you can recommend any books on growing up, I'm all ears. I understand that there is more to growing up than just reading, but I like to start here. All advice is welcome. 

Thanks again to everybody who responded. I am grateful and appreciate the support. 

Best,

Rigpa

[Stoic Warrior]

Now we are getting somewhere Rigpa.  I’m glad you’re opening up to us like this because this seems to be the real issue here.

I’ve worked in sales/retail for a long time starting in high school and throughout college, and I know  a lot of the time it is an incredibly soul-sucking job.  You feel like someone’s slave, not only to your boss but to every little picky request from clients.  You know you can do more than that, and it’s not a delusion.  

First, you need to realize there is nothing wrong with what you are feeling.  Adyashanti had this same feeling too even after his first revelatory non-dual experience.  He was 30 years old and working in a bike shop.  Keep in mind also that working in a bike shop, a retail establishment, a fast food restaurant (been there too), or as a garbage man is good legitimate work.  The issue is when you know the job you have limits the skills you already have or are developing.   

Honestly, at this point in your life, I wouldn’t focus too much on the metaphysical/existential topics within spirituality because it can make your psychological state a little uneasy (I can’t imagine being in a low spot while contemplating no God, no self, no free will, non-existence, many worlds, etc.)  

Make a list of all the skills you’ve developed from your work experience and see how that will help with your future plans.  If you have advertising and retail experience, you have people skills, persuasion skills, and the ability to get a product out there .  So for example, if you want to get into micro brewery, give free samples of your product to local bars/clubs and get some customer feedback (It’s hard for people to turn down something that is good and free). Contact hop wholesalers to see what kind of deal you can make to lower your costs. If you have the time, take a trip to Asheville, NC to get some ideas and experience micro brewery Mecca.  The key here is to take baby steps toward your goal.

In the meantime, just chill out your mind.  When you’re working, engage your mind in the work.  When you aren’t working, don’t think about work.  Engage yourself fully in eating, playing music, having sex, taking a nice hot shower, meditating, micro-brewing, or whatever else you're doing.  

[Dana Lomas]

Of course, I can only speak to what worked for me. Being an art college drop out, I had a very limited skill set that could be applied to the conventional work-a-day world. During my twenties, I worked a few different unfulfilling jobs, just to get by, somehow knowing in my heart that I couldn't continue with that. And so, following the wisdom of the heart, I eventually, somewhat serendipitously, got into social service work, specifically working with the so-called developmentally challenged.  And although at that time it wasn't a financially lucrative choice, I did find fulfilment in being of service to those in need of some compassionate help in finding a way to overcome their own struggles --notwithstanding that there are still limits to how much one can alleviate those struggles. This approach would also be in sync with the Dalai Lama's advice, paraphrasing ... "If you want to help others, practice compassion ... If you want to help yourself, practice compassion."  In whichever way you go, whether dealing with worldly or spiritual affairs, I don't feel one can go wrong with this approach ... and generally just trusting in the wisdom of the heart.

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 8:41:25 PM UTC-5, Rigpa wrote:

[Dana Lomas]

 "I'd also add that the instant vs. gradualist debate is itself ancient" ~ Mark Robert

Pertinent to this topic, coincidentally, here is a recent panel discussion that further elucidates and elaborates this ongoing theme (some audio issues early on, thankfully don't persist) ... "Sudden or Gradual: Two Paths to Realization?" 

[Mark Voss]

Honestly, at this point in your life, I wouldn’t focus too much on the metaphysical/existential topics within spirituality because it can make your psychological state a little uneasy (I can’t imagine being in a low spot while contemplating no God, no self, no free will, non-existence, many worlds, etc.)  

Like this a lot, and thought the whole comment was well said and grounded.

 Really when it comes down to it, I just want to know my place in life

Thanks for the honesty of your post Rigpa. I've long struggled with that same wish, to "know my place in life." Before last year (at 50), I never had a job that felt really right to me, so the quest for a good fit in worklife can take a long time, and many never find a great fit there. (Not that you can't, but you are not wrong to find it hard.) In this we are not well-supported by our culture in the US, because so much employment has to do with being a machine part in someone else's wealth-making engine. Not our fault, and not in our control. On the "spiritual" side, there is always the simplicity of just the person in front of you and the task at hand, and we can always do that with some amount of interest and respect. But on the "psychological" side, if we don't feel our unique talents being brought out as you say, there are deep levels not satisfied. Making enough is also very important, because if we don't, then money becomes too important.

Regarding growing up, I think there's relating to the truth of suffering. Many don't like to hear about it; I also would rather think about surrendering into billionaire-hood or being loved for my creativity with a side of craft brewery, but this noble truth, at least for me, was very important in helping me stop berating myself when life did not work out as I'd hoped it would. This is samsara after all, and it does not work out. On the plane ride back to the US yesterday, Air Canada's inflight mag had a "10 best new restaurants in Canada" article in it, and I tell you, I wanted to gobble up not only all of the food but all of the women, all of the decor, all of the panache, and all of the everything displayed in the enticing photos therein. As if I would thereafter enjoy a sterling enrichment forever more. And I watched "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" inflight, which made me want to become a sushi master and be 86 years old and looking back at a life well-lived with two sons who followed me into Sushi stardom. But then my wife pointed out that it was sad that all that sushi consisted of killed cute little fishes and octopi, and how hard it is to make a living in the restaurant business, and how after every party there's cleaning up all the dirt. So maybe it's okay if the brewery doesn't work out or even if you don't get rich, because it's all suffering anyway. (That's oversimplified, but I feel it's an important stepping stone.)

I'm hoping that somewhere in this collection of views there's something that takes out some of the sting and adds to the humor of our collective challenging situation!

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, Nov 22, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Dana Lomas <d.ho...@gmail.com> wrote:

 "I'd also add that the instant vs. gradualist debate is itself ancient" ~ Mark Robert

Pertinent to this topic, coincidentally, here is a recent panel discussion that further elucidates and elaborates this ongoing theme ... 

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