Idealism, historical materialism and utopia

[Justin]

Historical materialism is a theory of history developed by Karl Marx according to which the material conditions of a society's way of producing and reproducing the means of human existence fundamentally determine its organization and development.

By way of background, following the death of Hegel in 1831, Hegelian philosophy roughly divided into two camps - the 'right' or 'old' Hegelians who believed that reason and freedom achieved the culmination of their development with Hegelian idealism, and 'left' or 'young' Hegelians who believed the realization of reason and freedom entailed further changes in human society and the sensuously experienced world. Marx started off as a young Hegelian but later split from them as he developed historical materialism.

Whilst historical materialism is generally considered to be opposed to idealism, the fact that Bernardo's model is compatible with the findings of physics got me wondering that perhaps it could also be compatible with historical materialism (though maybe with some modifications to allow for the possibility of interventions into societal development by Mind-at-Large).

Two of the issues that arise from the possible compatibility of contemporary idealism with historical materialism are:

• Is Bernardo's theory consistent with or supportive of Marx's vision that human society is evolving towards a future utopia?
• As Bernardo states in Brief Peeks, materialism is symbiotic with our economic system. In view of this, how effective can challenges to materialism really be without fundamental changes to the economic system?
  

[lou gold]

Adherence to or belief in ANY philosophy or ideology, whether is it relatively correct or relatively false, is an expression of consciousness. The great and disruptive power of Homo sapiens is the ability to believe pure fictions like money or that a corporation is a person or that its species is separate from nature. However, the power of materialism follows naturally from the fact that Homo sapiens have bodies and are genetically programed for reproduction and survival to respond to pleasure and pain and thus are biased, like their immune system, to act very much in terms of me and other than me, even to the point of self destruction. It's not hard to see this play out across history without being a Marxist. Yuval Harari is a contemporary leading example of such an historian.

[lou gold]

The best I can tell, BK's Idealism is compatible with any evolutionary outcome including the extinction of Homo sapiens and a massive number of other species. Economic theory, of course, plays an important role in how the process unfolds and how benefits and sufferings get distributed. At present market capitalism combined with nation-based decision-making is driving the system toward global catastrophe, which is a mere blip or hiccup in the large view of M@L. Just something more to be aware of.

[Dana Lomas]

I've never gotten the impression that BK himself envisions any future utopia. In that respect, he seems to be more in the Schopenhauer life-is-a-struggle camp. But I suppose that if his idealism, or something like it, were to become the basis of a collective ethos, then the mindset that all sentient beings are fractals of a singular, common Consciousness -- as opposed to segregated meat-machines competing for survival -- could perchance at least entail a more compassionate society. But I'm not sure it entails the end to all existential suffering. That seems to require a much deeper revelation, beyond just a reasoned ontological grasp.

As for changing the economic system, wouldn't that also first require a change of the mindset that conceives the system?

[Lou Gold]

Dana,

As for changing the economic system, wouldn't that also first require a change of the mindset that conceives the system?

Change surely can be triggered by an altered mindset as the present creativity and disruptiveness of the digital age is demonstrating but there is no necessary or guaranteed direction for it to take. With regard to the economic system, it is much more likely for material conditions like climate change to force changes in the political economy. Why else, for example, might not Canada exploit its vast tar sands?

On Thursday, October 18, 2018 at 6:22:29 AM UTC-5, Dana Lomas wrote:

I've never gotten the impression that BK himself envisions any future utopia. In that respect, he seems to be more in the Schopenhauer life-is-a-struggle camp. But I suppose that if is his idealism, or something like it, were to become the basis of a collective ethos, then the mindset that all sentient beings are fractals of a singular, common Consciousness -- as opposed to segregated meat-machines competing for survival -- could perchance at least entail a more compassionate society. But I'm not sure it entails the end to all existential suffering. That seems to require a much deeper revelation, beyond just a reasoned ontological grasp.

[Dana Lomas]

Wouldn't a change in seeing nature as some material segregated from us to be destructively exploited, also first require a change in the mindset that believes in that?

[Lou Gold]

Dana,

Wouldn't a change in seeing nature as some material segregated from us to be destructively exploited, also first require a change in the mindset that believes in that? 

"Also", yes! "First", no! Indeed, the consciousness culminating in the mindset and civilization of separation (spectacularly manifested during the Axial Age) were driven by the ecological and climate changes that occurred as a result of the population pressure in the previously fertile wetland basins that had temporarily supported dense sedentary populations. The new adaptive form was cereal grain agriculture and the walled city-state. Of course, ideologies and religions emerged in support and were also important but the driver of these changes was the material conditions faced by the affected populations. The transition to the city-state from hunter-gatherer existence was an extremely unpleasant and resisted experience for most of those involved it, requiring lots of war, conquest and slavery.

[Dana Lomas]

Ok, so an outmoded mindset entails a crisis that transforms and evolves that mindset. Bottom line, if our alter-mode mindset doesn't mindfully change, as per Thay's example, then the Mind of Nature will force the issue ... Call it a collective NDE ... or, perish the thought, we perish.

[Lou Gold]

YUP! However, the important points for this forum seem to be several: 1) M@L can deal with and be aware of ANY possibility; 2) whatever will happen, will happen in Consciousness; and 3) Ontology does not give purpose, meaning or direction, which would require some version of religion (from my POV, hopefully like Thay's).

[Dana Lomas]

As I've said repeatedly, a cogent, contemporary ontological idealism offers an alternative for the mindset to shift towards, no more, no less. Should that happen, then que será, será.

[PanLamda]

  I think it is consistent yes, but it is also consistent with a more "progressive/socialdemocratic" capitalism, why not. What it probably promotes is a change of morality, in that, if every person understood that every other person is part of one subject, a more "humane" attitude would develop towards the other (but not necessarily an abrupt change in the whole economic system). 

As a system i think it is the only one which can ground utilitarianism meta-ethically as a moral theory. In the classic utilitarianism, what is ethical is associated with the amount of happiness (or the decrease of pain/sadness) of a subject. The classical problem i was seeing is that every person is a private island of experience. so such a system could not easily justify a moral system at the societal level, since "utility" is a private property. Now, with this theory, if every person is part of one person, then "utility/disutility" is no longer "private" in the strict sense.  Causing pain to another person is like causing pain to a part of myself. 

So, summing-up, i wouldn't say that it entails socialism, but it surely promotes a more progressive. humane and equality agenda i guess (which could lead to a more socialistic enonomy in the future). 

[Justin]

Wouldn't a change in seeing nature as some material segregated from us to be destructively exploited, also first require a change in the mindset that believes in that? 

Wouldn't a change in seeing nature as some material segregated from us to be destructively exploited, also first require a change in the mindset that believes in that? 

Alternative mindsets that embody these things are already available (such as BK's). But the historical materialist would argue that the dominant mindset will be that which arises from and reinforces the prevailing economic system. So for example,  if some adopted an alternative mindset that endorsed low consumption and low growth or a steady state, profit-seeking businesses that could not profit from these mindsets would simply be forced to find markets elsewhere (thus negating the effects of the alternative mindset).

[Justin]

Ontology does not give purpose, meaning or direction

I think if an ontology entails purposiveness then the two become intertwined. 

If things like the fine tuning of the laws and the initial conditions of the universe for the appearance of life lead to the conclusion that universal consciousness acts purposively and that humans may somehow be implicated in this purposiveness, then what "is' and what "ought to be" become enmeshed with each other.

[Dana Lomas]

if some adopted an alternative mindset ...

Well, if it's just 'some', then it's not a pervasive shift from the current prevailing collective paradigm, to an alternative prevailing collective paradigm -- in which case, the current socio-economic system has no reason to shift accordingly, even in the face of total collapse. However, the question of what combined crucial factors will shift vastly more than just some mindsets remains. Who knows what the power of an idea whose time has come, in conjunction with the transformational power of crisis may bring?

[Justin]

I agree Dana. Re the transformational power off crisis, the recent ipcc report on climate change comes to mind.

[Lou Gold]

While it's true that whatever is going to happen will happen within consciousness, it must be noted that the IPCC report is preeminently a materialistic warning and the remedy offered, again, is materialistic (reducing emissions and phasing out fossil fuels). Notice that it is not talking about about reducing population or material consumption, which would be more aligned with a shift in consciousness. If the shit hits the fan, the adaptive response to extreme crisis may be a greatly modified human species or an altogether new variety, as has happened previously along the long path of evolution. As yet, I see no evidence that Brazil intends to leave its vast offshore oil reserves or Canada intends to leave its vast tar sands reserves or the US intends to leave its frackable reserves in the ground. Indeed, the political trend is running in the opposite direction. The IPCC scientists say we have about a dozen years to do it globally and the mobilization required to do it is totally unprecedented in human history.

[Dana Lomas]

Well, I suppose it could be one trigger for reaching a crisis point, but I'm not sure that just having a pending crisis pointed out, is going to be the catalyst. The crisis needs to be experienced deep in the core of one's being. Like the addict in the throes of a downward spiral of a vicious cycle of self destruction, who are the last ones to acknowledge their eventual fate no matter how often it is pointed out to them, the catalyst is often some proverbial fear-of-God moment that cracks the very foundations of even the most firmly entrenched mindset.

[Lou Gold]

Sadly, as the work of Gabor Maté reveals, the addict will often choose to carry on with the addiction, even with the awareness of where it is leading. Escaping from physical or psychic pain is the motive and the addict's behavior is rational unless an alternative is presented that convincingly better reduces the pain. Thus, consciousness to be practical, must demonstrate its ability to reduce suffering. It's a very tough problem.

Maté's excellent analysis, which relies heavily on Buddhist insights, is presented in his "In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts"

https://www.google.com.br/search?ei=LDfLW_rVBIy4wAS3hoXIBQ&q=in+the+realm+of+hungry+ghosts+by+gabor+mat%C3%A9&oq=mat%C3%A9+realm+of+hungry+ghost&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i8i30k1l2.68347.74216.0.81329.3.3.0.0.0.0.178.504.0j3.3.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..0.3.503...0i8i7i10i30k1j35i39k1j0i30k1.0.sgDfN8h5hlI

[Lou Gold]

Here's a good discussion of the economic challenge which will require a fundamental transformation of the capitalist system. 

https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/scientists-warn-the-un-of-capitalisms-imminent-demise-a679facac985

One thing that seems particularly relevant in a philosophical way is that individual free will is not an adequate mechanism for meeting the challenge. The problems are now structural: "... we have moved into a new, unpredictable and unprecedented space in which the conventional economic toolbox has no answers. As slow economic growth simmers along, central banks have resorted to negative interest rates and buying up huge quantities of public debt to keep our economies rolling. But what happens after these measures are exhausted? Governments and bankers are running out of options. It can be safely said that no widely applicable economic models have been developed specifically for the upcoming era.” 

Perhaps, it is this failure of economic (materialist) models that might open the door for consciousness models?

[Dana Lomas]

Yes, in many cases, the addict succumbs, rejecting the resolution even if it is presented. Who knows, perhaps passing away to an alternate construct is the outcome they accept, however subliminal it may be.

[Dana Lomas]

Thus, consciousness to be practical, must demonstrate its ability to reduce suffering.

Isn't this what Thay's mindfulness shows us ... What NDEs show us ... What plant medicine visions show us (a healing modality the Gabor uses). What are they, if not consciousness based messages that have been proven to engender a less suffering prone mindset? Granted, they're not going to directly transform the socio-economic system, which may indeed have to become the remains of a 'fire', wherein those seeds will find space and light to grow, into what can be revisioned.

[Lou Gold]

You are really funny Dana. 

Somehow you always seem to assume that I'm attacking Idealism, even when I offer examples of how it can be right on (Maté and Thay, for examples). However, it is also true that they are fighting an uphill battle in a world that rushes toward opioids and the latest pill-popping approaches of Big Pharma. All that I'm saying s that the suffering caused by and maintained by the dominating materialist forms is a great challenge for consciousness to overcome. Indeed, this is the true test.

[Dana Lomas]

And it's funny too that you assume that I assume that you're attacking idealism, when all I did was ask a question. How many are rushing towards mindfulness or plant medicines, as opposed to popping opioids, I can't say. And who's to say how many rushing to opioids aren't rushing towards NDEs, or some transformational crisis? But even if their fate is to succumb, then what else can they be succumbing to, other than Consciousness? In any case, insofar as it can only ever be Consciousness that prevails, whatever expression it may be exploring, not excluding the suffering ones, then I can be at peace with that, without the notion that it all somehow should not be happening. Of course, that doesn't mean that one should not aspire to compassionately be the most ideal conveyor of one's essential nature as possible, and as in Thay's example, never lose heart, however 'uphill' the journey may seem.

[Lou Gold]

Interesting miscommunication then. I did find "funny" that you said, "Isn't this what Thay's mindfulness shows us ... What NDEs show us ... What plant medicine visions show us (a healing modality the Gabor uses). What are they, if not consciousness based messages that have been proven to engender a less suffering prone mindset?" right after I had offered them as positive examples. Perhaps, you were affirming my examples? But, yes, my basic drift is that it will take a lot of work and demonstration beyond a simple ontological "paradigm shift" to bring about a new cultural consensus AND one must understand that that the existing political economy is highly invested in maintaining the problem. This is not reason to give up; it's reason to work much harder, a stellar example being Thay's engaged spirituality.

[Dana Lomas]

Yes, since you said "consciousness must demonstrate its ability to reduce suffering", I just offered that it already does. 

[Lou Gold]

OK, more word quibbles. I guess that I should have said, "Consciousness must engage with and effectively prove within the mass social/economic/political structure that it is better at reducing suffering or somehow otherwise overwhelm the structural inertias that resist it." This is much more than a "proof of concept" or the existence of minority alternative subcultures. I speak as a as one who is convinced of the superiority of expanded awareness and as a longtime member of several alternative subcultures. 

Here's a very practical example. During the hippie back-to-the-land movement my community in Southern Oregon established a free-of-charge Community-People's-Clinic that pioneered, with a "barefoot doc" and nine midwives, natural childbirth. Eventually, the mainstream hospitals and clinics in many areas of Oregon adopted the option with birthing rooms and supportive services. However, the global trend now is toward more and more C-section births at a level that the World Health Organization considers alarming. Indeed, in Brazil, the private hospitals are reporting a near 80% rate of c-section births. 

https://www.google.com.br/search?q=rising+global+c-section+births+WHO&oq=rising+global+c-section+births+WHO&aqs=chrome..69i57.24503j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Why? Because there is less suffering and because scheduling c-section births is much more convenient and efficient for both the doctors and the hospitals. 

[Dana Lomas]

Ok, point taken, there are challenges.

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 8:56:05 PM UTC-4, Lou Gold wrote:

OK, more word quibbles. I guess that I should have said, "Consciousness must engage with and effectively prove within the the mass social/economic/political structure that it is better at reducing suffering or somehow otherwise overwhelm the structural inertias that resist it." This is much more than a "proof of concept" or the existence of minority alternative subcultures. I speak as a as one who is convinced of the superiority of expanded awareness and as a longtime member of several alternative subcultures. 

Here's a very practical example. During the hippie back-to-the-land movement my community in Southern Oregon established a free-of-charge Community-People's-Clinic that pioneered, with a "barefoot doc" and nine midwives, natural childbirth. Eventually, the mainstream hospitals and clinics in many areas of Oregon adopted the option with birthing rooms and supportive services. However, the global trend now is toward more and more C-section births a level that the World Health Organization considers alarming. Indeed, in Brazil, the private hospitals are reporting a near 80% rate of c-section births. 

[Lou Gold]

Nice to be on the same page with you Dana.

A huge part of the challenge is that market capitalism loves problems because of the opportunities to peddle, via elaborate manipulative advertising and ideologies, "solutions", which are largely illusory and materialistic. Sadly, the market for palliative treatments, other-blaming, quick fixes and escapism is much larger than the market for the deep work of self-inquiry, caring and sharing. This is the deep perennial problem facing Idealists like you and I and our colleagues. Not impossible, of course, but in these critical times I sure wish that someone might show us how to do it at the mass level in a timeline that matters.

[Dana Lomas]

Sing along y'all  :)

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones
A time to gather stones together

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace
A time to refrain from embracing

To everything - turn, turn, turn
There is a season - turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time for love, a time for hate
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late!

[Justin]

Let’s hope it’s not too late anyway ;)

Whether a change in economic structure is necessary for a mass change in consciousness or visa versa is a bit of a chicken or egg issue, though I suspect the former is more critical.

Imagine what things like a universal basic income could do to free up people’s potential for spiritual growth without the angst of struggle for material survival. Critics might predict laziness and apathy, but maybe limitless vistas would open up.

https://www.amazon.com/Basic-Income-Radical-Proposal-Society/dp/0674052285

[Lou Gold]

So interesting that you should choose Ecclesiastes, Dana. Here's what Wikipedia suggests about it:

"The subjects of Ecclesiastes are the pain and frustration engendered by observing and meditating on the distortions and inequities pervading the world, the uselessness of human deeds, and the limitations of wisdom and righteousness. The phrase "under the sun" appears thirty times in connection with these observations; all this coexists with a firm belief in God, whose power, justice and unpredictability are sovereign. History and nature move in cycles, so that all events are predetermined and unchangeable, and life has no meaning or purpose: the wise man and the man who does not study wisdom will both die and be forgotten: man should be reverent ("Fear God"), but in this life it is best to simply enjoy God's gifts."

Not a bad description of the perennial problem, I'd say.

[Dana Lomas]

Speaking of mindfulness practice, its proliferation, and how it addresses suffering, this insightful talk seems applicable here ... "Secular" mindfulness as deeply Buddhist - Robert Wright and Jon Kabat-Zinn

[Lou Gold]

A marvelous technology with many applications. 

Mindfulness and meditation are super. Bill Gates does it. Yuval Harari does it. Chen Tianqiao does it. 

And here it is entering the Chinese mass market: https://www.forbes.com/sites/lienoch/2017/12/19/looking-for-enlightenment-be-mindful-of-what-the-chinese-market-needs/#491759365e12

[Dana Lomas]

Of course the Zen variation of mindfulness did originate as Chan Buddhism in China, where it incorporated aspects of Taoism, so it seems natural that it would be revived there -- the pertinent lesson being that if we don't master mindfulness, then non-mindfulness masters us, i.e. basically what Harari is reiterating.

[Lou Gold]

Excellent video -- highly recommended!

John Kabat-Zinn is a favorite of mine. I especially love his book title, "Full Catastrophe Living."

It reminded me of an experience I had about about two years ago. I was in the Amazon Forest for an indigenous ayahuasca ritual called Dança da Jaboia (Dance of the Boa Constrictor), which is a single-file line dance led by women singing beautiful songs. Everyone, places their right hand on the shoulder of the person in front of them as the line snakes for hours about the ceremonial space. The purpose of the dance is to generate the experience of many individuals connecting and moving as a single organism.

Unfortunately, about a half hour before the dance, I was stung on the bottom of my foot by a Tucandeira (Paraponera clavata), which is known in English as the Bullet Ant because its fierce sting is considered as the most painful of all insect bites and it lasts for up to 24 hours: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraponera_clavata. I knew it was time for some mindfulness practice and so I drank my dose of ayahuasca and entered barefoot into the dance repeating in my mind, "pain is real and suffering is not necessary." For hours of dancing, the pain was not diminished at all and I did not suffer. It demonstrated what I mean by having a both material and consciousness approach in practical reality. Viva! the alchemy of awareness. Viva! the alchemy of connecting with others. Viva! plant medicines. Viva! "Full Catastrophe Living." 

[Lou Gold]

@Justin

Here's an interesting exchange between Yuval Harari and Russell Brand on the original topic of the thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ta4U8G03q98

[Justin]

Thanks Lou, nice vid. I'll have to check out more of Brand's stuff.