Treat your God with care

[Brian Wachter]

Dennett and other puffed-up atheists want to introduce you to the rational. But all I detect is a rationale, and a bad one at that. Not to disparage ghosts, but you could equate his dismissal of God with the statement, "I don't believe in ghosts." Or "I don't believe in UFOs." But denial of God is different. God is proud, and that makes me afraid to get it wrong. I chafe at prayer, because I don't see the role of God as that of a parent you can ask for material assistance. God is mysterious, and I respect that.

I can pray in a group setting, because that is ritual in a communal way.

Also, I am a student of Jung's characterization of Self--the end product of successful individuation--as functionally equivalent to God. The totality of your being is more than a gateway to God; it is God. Philippians 2:6, in the American Standard bible, says, "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped?"

[Rigpa]

I like this prayer by Don Miguel Ruiz.

"Thank You, Creator of the Universe for the gift of Life you have given me,
Thank You for giving me everything that I have ever needed,
Thank You for the opportunity to experience this beautiful body and this wonderful mind,
Thank You for living inside me with all Your Love and Your pure and boundless Spirit,
with Your warm and radiating Light.
Thank You for using my words, for using my eyes, for using my heart to share your love wherever I go.
I love You just the way you are and because I am your creation, I love myself just the way I am.
Help me to keep the Love and the Peace in my Heart and to make that Love a new way of life, that I may live in Love the rest of my life."

[Santeri Satama]

At some stage of life some people realize that they need to heal the God who is sick, e.g. too proud or jealous. And then the healed God can heal you back. Yes, projections, but they can and do work - also wonders.

I remember also time when I chafed at prayer. Egotistic begging for material assistance is the beggars way.  Hoping and wishing does not end, even if I try, however, and there's also the maxim "be careful what you wish for, for wishes can come true". There are spiritual common ceremonies where major intention and practice is to learn to pray more skillfully, to learn to wish better wishes, learning from example of others and from the truth in your heart.

[Dana Lomas]

Oh what a tangled web is weaved, whence God from infinite capacity for expression/exploration, by definition, can't preclude expressing/exploring the idea of someOne 'apart from God' or 'other than God', now denying God, now praying to God -- and apparently finding it powerfully compelling, this playing at the spell of an exclusive, segregated identification notion (Oh Father forgive me for 'I' have sinned), only then to explore a way to dispel it (for 'I' and the Father are One), wherein the 'I' no longer stands for 'identification' but rather 'individuation', as in Jung's vision ... and all somehow integral to Its being><becoming.

[Lou Gold]

Is prayer being generally portrayed as a begging or pleading as one might do for a desperately ill friend?

It it also used to express devotion, gratitude or, like meditation, to firm and focus one's mind in a certain consciousness.

[Brian Wachter]

Let's face it. We can all use being saved. I don't criticize others for their prayers. Asking for shit is just not me.

[Lou Gold]

Brian,

 Asking for shit is just not me.

Me too! 

[Rigpa]

Which is what I was pointing out with the prayer I posted. 

[Lou Gold]

I like it. I like all the "Agreement" books of Don Miguel Ruiz. They are clearly. in my view, the best approach stripped of dogmatic spiritual and religious baggage. 

[Dana Lomas]

Is there a prayer that frees from one from the identity of the prayer in need of praying?

[Lou Gold]

Dana,

Is there a prayer that frees from one from the identity of the prayer in need of praying?

I think it's silence. At least it's the most profound prayer I've experienced.

However, it's also true that great realized ones like Ramana Maharshi and Neem Karoli Baba (guru of Ram Dass) continued to recite the name of God. I think of this as maintenance, as a way to continue to firm and focus the consciousness. This seems necessary to me as an ongoing process while one is in the realm of duality.

This approach would see prayer and devotion as tools of consciousness rather than a dogmatic or pleading protocol; more like doing daily exercises or going to the spiritual gym.

[Lou Gold]

I like this prayer a lot and, YES!, I consider it to be a prayer (especially if recited with sincere heartfelt devotion).

Each of us inevitable,
Each of us limitless --
Each of us with his or her
right upon the earth,
Each of us allow'd
the eternal purports
of the earth,
Each of us here
as divinely as any is here.

~ Walt Whitman ~

(Leaves of Grass)

[Dana Lomas]

That feels oh-so-close ... Gracias a la vida

[Santeri Satama]

Aho Mitakuye Oyasin.

To all our relations. Identities are just a relation among all others.

[Santeri Satama]

Yeah, also a kind of channel tuning. I hear that many who were in Standing Rock, learned to pray in new way, not the pleading way but the tuning way, and described the state of prayer, which gave them strength to stand their ground against the violent thugs, as being guided. There's no need for strict separation between prayer, meditation and spirit possession in all variety.

[Santeri Satama]

Thanks. I used to play that song a lot, but had almost forgotten.

[Brian Wachter]

So true.

[Sci Patel]

“You, God, who live next door--

If at times, through the long night, I trouble you
with my urgent knocking--
this is why: I hear you breathe so seldom.
I know you're all alone in that room.
If you should be thirsty, there's no one
to get you a glass of water.
I wait listening, always. Just give me a sign!

I'm right here..."

 -Rilke

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

Years ago, when I attended my first peyote meeting, I was asked to offer a prayer. I hesitated and the Roadman could see my confusion about how to pray in this setting. He said, "Just speak like you are talking to a friend -- your best friend." It has guided my personal way of praying ever since.

[Brian Wachter]

Shouldn't all self talk be conducted in this manner?

[Dana Lomas]

Now imagining M@L in alter-mode belting out this tune 

[Santeri Satama]

Good advice. As the communion is very much about community, which is not limited to just those present, speaking and praying for the community can feel burdensome responsibility. It is the woman who has best skill in praying for our community, as the way women speak with each other that is the glue that creates community and holds it together. Woman can teach best to pray skillfully by her example, but first by her wisdom and compassion by giving so much room for less talented men to offer their prayers.

I'm very shy and feel very awkward and uncomfortable in all situations where I'm expected to say something in public, and avoid such situations as much as I can. That's how people become writers. :)  

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

I'm glad that you grok my drift. Your comments about women are very appropriate. Also, in the old tradition, woman was there from the beginning as Justice and Wisdom and the Blazing Lady in the Sun. She was not a latecomer whose ascension followed her famous son. Obviously (no son without a mother), she was there from the beginning. I believe this is what daime/ayahuasca meant in telling me that no mother is problematic. 

[Santeri Satama]

Problematic in which way? Could the word 'problematic' your own addition/projection/interpretation? 

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

In my earliest times at this forum, when I found it quite confusing, I asked daime/ayahuasca "What up with this forum?" and the instant response was "No Mother!"

Perhaps the word "problematic" was not the best choice (I also wondered about it) but surely addition/projection/interpretation or remembering relates back to my daime/ayahuasca experience.

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

Problematic in which way?

Maybe in this way...

"It is the function of Eros [the principle of love and of life] to unite what Logos [the principle of mind and of thought] has sundered.

The woman today is faced with a tremendous cultural task -- perhaps it will be the dawn of a new era."

- C.G Jung

[Santeri Satama]

Perhaps "challenging" would be a better word then? In men's sauna it's not uncommon for men with more life experience to share experience and softly teach younger men how to cope with women, how to understand them better, how to better serve women and the good of the tribe. It's not our way to talk bad things about women when they are not around, on the contrary, and wise women know this and very much prefer men to have their own talk, like women have their own talks between them, as well as our common talks. All these serve the Sacred Purpose in their own way.

At the dawn of a New Era, the idealist domain is more malleable and gives more creative freedom to talk to heal old wounds and craft new gifts to offer.   

[Lou Gold]

Santarei,  

I grok your drift that "challenging" might work better here but I've got to point out the obvious fact that we are challenged by problems. Men's understanding of women would surely qualify.

More philosophically, I think that the Western approach emphasizes the fundamental problematic as finding the Truth, whereas the Shamanic or indigenous approach focuses on finding the Way. I picked these ideas in reading about Aztec Philosophy. 

I've had lots of experience with sweat lodge in the more traditional way rather than in the modern therapeutic way and I've heard little dialog about the challenge of grokking women. Perhaps, you are describing a different (and useful) style in reference to the sauna.

[Brian Wachter]

At the inception of the Aquarian New Era of cooperation; upon the sickness and death of selfish Capricornian competition, idealism is the way forward. The procession of the equinoxes will not be denied.

Humanity must--MUST--learn to focus on common goals and the health of the entire system here on Earth, so we can move the needle of acceleration in satisfying the movement to expand off planet, and at the same time take the pressure off the Mother.

[Lou Gold]

Brian,

I never grok why the paradise goal is placed off-planet.

I practice a prayer:

The miracle occurs when the child appears 

    in the heart of the lovely flower.

The earth is the lovely flower. 

We are the child. 

May we work well. 

Why do you think we chose to come here?

[Santeri Satama]

Yes, sweat lodge and Finnish sauna are different in many ways. I enjoy imagining that when they took our tribesmen to Delaware, Forest Finns build their log cabin saunas and Lenni Lenape and Forest Finns shared sauna and sweat lodge with each other and compared their ways. 


sunnuntai 19. tammikuuta 2020 1.02.45 UTC+2 Lou Gold kirjoitti:

Santarei,  

[Brian Wachter]

On Saturday, January 18, 2020 at 4:42:18 PM UTC-7, Lou Gold wrote:

Brian,

I never grok why the paradise goal is placed off-planet.

I call our planet "the Garden" to express that it should be paradise. Our destiny is in the greater universe, however.

[Lou Gold]

Brian,

Our destiny is in the greater universe, however. 

How do you know? I'm not asking about books or theories. I'm asking how you know?

[Brian Wachter]

I have felt it in my guts since I was a child. One of my earliest memories is of the second moon landing and I really can't separate my belief in the off-planet destiny of man from that. My father also taught me about man's destiny a young age, and I've never had occasion to doubt him on this. Also, my enlightenment at age 17 resulted in an immediate vision of a galaxy uncurling itself before me. This I understood to be a vision of and for our future pursuits.

[Lou Gold]

Brian,

I completely accept the authenticity and sincerity of your report without doubt.

How do you know that these are not things that could be done mentally and while embodied here on earth? Why is the final destination elsewhere? Why is the end of story not "back home to earth?"

[Santeri Satama]

I didn't see final destiny mentioned. The vibe I get: Egg. Hatching. Flying to new challenges and wonders.

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

I got the vibe from...

Humanity must--MUST--learn to focus on common goals and the health of the entire system here on Earth, so we can move the needle of acceleration in the movement to move off planet, and at the same time take the pressure off the Mother.

Might it mean space exploration by a few? Or, are we collectively heading toward a new home? "Home" is what I meant by "final destination." Could also be a "heaven" or "happy hunting ground."

[Santeri Satama]

Exploration of idealist mental "space" can have very different meanings from the scarcity of physicalist imagination. And does not exclude enjoying plenty of good times in our Human Flourish here on Earth, with the dinosaurs that grew wings and became parrots, eagles, etc., with the rest of the whole gang. BK gives some taste:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQS1hvIc3TI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7IMMQWHaUE

[Brian Wachter]

I don't "know," precisely. I assume that the galaxy I saw was more than decoration. I assume the moon landing was prelude to more exploration and eventual colonization. I assume my long-held beliefs are more than delusion. I assume Elon Musk is being truthful when he says he wants to die on Mars. I assume the life's work of Isaac Asimov and Robert Heinlein and Arthur C. Clark represents a valid longing.

And I assume I am not making an ASS out of U and ME.

[Lou Gold]

Brian,

I have also seen the "galaxy" via ayahuasca while being fully embodied on earth. Deep meditation techniques can also reveal "other worlds" in the mind, which I believe is the essence of idealism. Do you believe our destiny is to go there in materialist fashion and, if you do, will we learn to do it on other than earth?

Sure, there are many storylines. Some become great myths. Others become scriptures. Why do you privilege the ones you've mentioned?

[Lou Gold]

Santeri,

THANKS! I had not seen these BK videos before. However, I had definitely picked up this sensibility in my reading of "More Than Allegory," which is what drew me to this forum in the first place. 

Here are some random responses:

I do not see that these mindful technologies will reduce the impact on earth of humans careening toward 9-11 billion people or technologies requiring an enormous energy draw, both of which function to reduce habitat for other-than-human earthlings. 

One of BK's stories focuses on fractals and correspondences. Fractals are extremely common in ayahuasca visions and when Jeremy Narby, in The Cosmic Serpent, asked the ayahuasca-using shaman how the plants talked to him and told him of cures, the answer was that he saw "correspondences."

does not exclude enjoying plenty of good times in our Human Flourish here on Earth, with the dinosaurs that grew wings and became parrots, eagles, etc., with the rest of the whole gang.

Yup, there is nothing to suggest that Homo sapiens are forever or extremely long-term unless the species figures out a way to become a responsible and response-able species. Why does Idealism privilege individual awareness when mutualism seems more functional for survival in evolution?

[David Samson]

Well, it seems to me that, while co-creating our reality does not preclude the possibility of avoiding such things, the basic pattern of this existence would seem to make that planet killer asteroid (whether it be tomorrow or a million years from now) an inevitability. That being the case & allowing that we are the technological species, making humanity a multi-planetary species is a worthwhile goal. And if, as I believe, that pursuit of curious mind (while respecting our individuation) is a value for M@L then exploration in the "physical" world as well as the world of mind would also be valuable.

I personally was greatly influenced by G. Harry Stine's book: "The 3rd Industrial Revolution" along with Ben Bova's; "The High Road." IMO, they presented a vision where many of our technological activities could be managed off planet in order to facilitate returning the planet to more of an agricultural/garden/protected state.

Digressing to the earlier conversation in this thread, I didn't notice much mention of the concept of invocation as prayer. & then there is the Nichiren Buddhist concept (That I admittedly may be butchering - that is what being a dilettante/generalist can produce) that 1st one must satisfy the mundane desires in order to free oneself spiritually? To get to the place where mundane desires hold no power over ones self? (Perhaps represented by the Temperance card in the spiritual path depicted by the Tarot?)

Finally (since I've jumped late in to this conversation). I've always liked the, perhaps more primal, trinity of "mother, father, progeny" whereas the Christian tradition (perhaps as a result of Peter being such a misogynist?) substituted "holy spirit" for the feminine principle, & the Hindu's Brahman as the creating/sustaining feminine principle. Perhaps if we could arrive at a place where the feminine was given equal status to the masculine then we could similarly, find it easier to live more balanced lives? It seems that human civilization may have dwelled at one time in an overly matriarchal state where stagnation was the danger & now we have had several millennia of patriarchy with the associated destructiveness of exacerbated change. Ultimately arriving at a place of balance would seem desirable.

[Lou Gold]

David,

I've always liked the, perhaps more primal, trinity of "mother, father, progeny" whereas the Christian tradition (perhaps as a result of Peter being such a misogynist?) substituted "holy spirit" for the feminine principle, & the Hindu's Brahman as the creating/sustaining feminine principle. Perhaps if we could arrive at a place where the feminine was given equal status to the masculine then we could similarly, find it easier to live more balanced lives? It seems that human civilization may have dwelled at one time in an overly matriarchal state where stagnation was the danger & now we have had several millennia of patriarchy with the associated destructiveness of exacerbated change. Ultimately arriving at a place of balance would seem desirable.

Yup. The image I like is a trinity of Eternal Father, Sovereign Mother, Divine Child encased in the One by the Great Mysteriousness.

[David Samson]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 3:50:44 AM UTC-5, Lou Gold wrote:

I do not see that these mindful technologies will reduce the impact on earth of humans careening toward 9-11 billion people or technologies requiring an enormous energy draw, both of which function to reduce habitat for other-than-human earthlings. 

Lou, that may be why developing the ability to move more toxic activities off planet might benefit both the burgeoning population along with all of our (x-legged, winged, creepy-crawly, finned etc.) relatives that have to put up with humanity

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 3:50:44 AM UTC-5, Lou Gold wrote:

Why does Idealism privilege individual awareness when mutualism seems more functional for survival in evolution?

Isn't that the koan we must resolve? See my comment re: the trinity. Mutualism is more of the feminine principle which can tend towards stagnation. We need the imagining/creative power of individualism to be balanced with the sustainability of mutualism. 

[David Samson]

And isn't prayer related to the notion of manifesting the deity in one's own image? How big is your God? (sounds like sort of a guy thing doesn't it - mine is bigger than yours ;-)

I've demonstrated a tendency to tease the more fundamentalist types by pointing out that an omniscient & omnipotent god would inherently approve of anything the devil might do (since the devil couldn't act in defiance of such a god)

[Lou Gold]

David,

Lou, that may be why developing the ability to move more toxic activities off planet might benefit both the burgeoning population along with all of our (x-legged, winged, creepy-crawly, finned etc.) relatives that have to put up with humanity

AMAZING! This is precisely the kind of thinking that allowed humans to pollute an unseen elsewhere such as CO2 in the atmosphere and microplastics in the ocean. Earlier on this kind of "elsewhere" and "other" thinking allowed some nations to get rich by exploiting other places where people were not Christians, etc.

Isn't that the koan we must resolve? See my comment re: the trinity. Mutualism is more of the feminine principle which can tend towards stagnation. We need the imagining/creative power of individualism to be balanced with the sustainability of mutualism. 

At this moment of history individual creativity is vastly privileged over mutualism. This over-privilege is called the march of technology, which is not seriously questioned despite it being both innovative and disruptive. The old tradition says that the feminine principles of wisdom and justice were there from the beginning alongside the creative acts of the masculine. The Sacred Purpose was contained in concern for the child.

[Lou Gold]

And isn't prayer related to the notion of manifesting the deity in one's own image? How big is your God? (sounds like sort of a guy thing doesn't it - mine is bigger than yours ;-)

That's one form of prayer, and indeed a very masculine one.

There are many forms of prayer. Some celebrate a Great Mysteriousness. 

[David Samson]

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 11:13:51 AM UTC-5, Lou Gold wrote:

AMAZING! This is precisely the kind of thinking that allowed humans to pollute an unseen elsewhere such as CO2 in the atmosphere and microplastics in the ocean. Earlier on this kind of "elsewhere" and "other" thinking allowed some nations to get rich by exploiting other places where people were not Christians, etc.

Which is why we need to more fully balance the masculine. I like both having a clean environment & the types of technology that allows for this conversation. I don't believe they are mutually exclusive.

One of my favorite SF (or as I prefer; speculative fiction) novels is the Mars Trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy

It is a Utopian novel speculating a possible future where we spread throughout our solar system. It sympathetically considers (among other things) a sentiment similar to what you seem to be voicing such that the protection of the land is foremost - to the extent of not even allowing human habitation.

I'm not certain to what level of low tech you would aspire but I've washed my clothes on rock & I much prefer modern appliances. I also like that we can have this conversation of like minded individuals in virtual space. While I'd prefer to have an infrastructure with EV transportation powered by wind & solar. I don't particularly want to have to walk or ride animals everywhere. While I believe that all reality exists in the mind, I also can't help but notice that I still have a very strong perception of being in a body which requires certain levels of maintenance & I while don't need luxuries (s.a. computers, cars, washing machines, electricity & running water), I certainly do enjoy them.

[It's worth a brief digression to point out {slightly tongue-in-cheek} the evils perpetuated on society by President Eisenhower. His creation of the interstate highway system led to significant displacement of families & the destruction of the extended family because of the relatively new pressure to have to relocate nuclear families for purposes of employment. By the destruction of the extended family, society lost one of its major mechanisms to pressure people to conform to the traditional values of the local culture. Of course, I am personally grateful for this particular destruction because it has afforded me more opportunity to break free of the social pressures to conform to the narrow ideologies of my family]

It is also questionable as to how the planet could support a population in the billions without the use of modern technology. I prefer to aim at a society where we can have both modern technology & a clean environment. When I think of the industrialization of "space," I think of manufacturing in the vacuum orbiting Earth or other celestial bodies. Certainly there will always be issues with waste but I think it will be easier to contain it in a vacuum than on the surface of a planet. I also like the idea of mining asteroids instead of the Earth for all of those minerals needed to make things like the computers which enable us to have this conversation. Also, solar energy is much easier to access in space than on the Earth, which means that many energy intensive activities could be conducted in the vacuum of space rather than requiring the energy to be available on the planet's surface.

Finally, I like the idea of being able to prevent the inevitable asteroid from hitting the Earth. I believe in the power of prayer but I also have to remember that we are not creating this reality - we are co-creating it & things s.a. asteroids flying through space have a certain level of inertia both literally and in the realm of ideas, such that they may not divert sufficiently just because we want them to. What's the old anecdote about the rising flood waters? - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fumbling-change/200905/two-boats-and-helicopter-thoughts-stress-management

[Santeri Satama]

What does survival in evolution mean, or evolution as such? Hard science reminds that 99,999% species have gone extinct during history of biosphere, which is all we need to know about Darwinian "functional survival" and self-importance of humanism, but smoother approach would talk about continuous transformation.

Why do you assume that Idealism privileges individual awareness? Idealism is not limited to nave digging of European Subject, there's also Eastern Idealism with many schools, endless variety of animistic Idealism, process philosophical idealism of spiritual evolution. The big snake/stream of endless variety of geometric patterns is rather universal experience, not limited to yage or psychadelics in general.  

We can take idealism simply as wider frame for spiritual evolution, inclusive of organic matter but not limited to that or any matter. Our view of Mother is not mere projection of "individual awareness", but a fractal. All species have their emuu, "clan mother" of the species, and many old names for them have been preserved. As we now understand better, emuut themselves can also evolve and change according all the geometric patterns and processes of the big snake, an evolving emuu of it's own kind. When emuu functions as totem or soul animal or similar, it does not need to be gender specific and can be also pack, swarm, element, etc, and can be also in the shape of an extinct species.  For example, fractally distributed asubjective awareness can still have agentive powers and purposes, e.g. healing and learning processes. Which can include both Garden Planet and exploring physicalist space in human form, and not be limited to those.

[Santeri Satama]

What humanity is currently actually doing, is developing ability to protect Gaia from planet killer and smaller asteroids. Even more noble goal, and not exclusive of also becoming a multi-planetary species and/or something like Iain M. Banks Culture.

[Lou Gold]

David, 

I'm not certain to what level of low tech you would aspire but I've washed my clothes on rock & I much prefer modern appliances.

What in the world leads you to presume I'm biased toward low tech? I'm biased toward appropriate tech supporting the Sacred Purpose of sustaining the community of life. I'm glad that indigenous people in the Amazon forest have smartphones and internet connection to assist in monitoring against illegal logging. Over and over, I note "it's the carpenter that builds the house and not the hammer." It's the intention that informs the use of technology that is the difference making the difference.

[David Samson]

Lou, I'm just getting to know you so please pardon my questioning your response to my advocacy of technological development in space. I had no way of knowing to what degree you might possess Luddite tendencies. I appreciate that your concerns, like mine, are more centered on appropriate use.

I'm in agreement that I'd like off Earth development to show proper respect for the natural world regardless of which planet & especially so if we encounter an alien biosphere. IMO, even waste disposal outside of an atmosphere should have protocols designed to protect from the waste ending up somewhere it shouldn't .

[Lou Gold]

How about minimizing waste rather than finding a good place to put it?

[Dana Lomas]

A prayer of olox

[David Samson]

Absolutely! Waste is one of my pet peeves. In my observations of the universe, conservation of mass/energy is a constant. Nature doesn't waste anything so shouldn't it make sense that neither should we? Could it not be considered more moral if we strove for greater efficiency in minimizing waste and the time it takes for objects to cycle through the environment? Responsible handling of objects that are not easily reduced/reused/recycled is no excuse for avoiding waste in the first place. I would also note that my desire to reduce waste also extends to minimizing the waste of human potential. I'm a firm supporter of easy access to lifetime learning- a mind is a terrible thing.....well, you know ;-)

[Lou Gold]

Dana, 

I loved this prayer. THANKS! 

One of the things I love about living on the island of Hawaii is that it is vulnerable to tsunamis, volcanic lava flows, hurricanes and earthquakes, which generate among humans a certainty that nature bats last. And, just in case one might forget, on the street outside my home there are signs pointing toward "evacuation routes." No doubt about it!

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 1:59:25 PM UTC-10, Dana Lomas wrote:

A prayer of olox

[Lou Gold]

David,

97% of the plastics dumped into the oceans is never recovered. They enter the entire food chain as microplastics.  The only way to reduce is to reduce production.

[Santeri Satama]

Thank you <3. Just what was needed.

maanantai 20. tammikuuta 2020 1.59.25 UTC+2 Dana Lomas kirjoitti:

A prayer of olox

[David Samson]

Lou, no argument with me on that account