gasoline
rian
Your country is buying up oil in Europe while our biggest refinery is in
maintenance.
Now OUR gas prices have gone up 15 $ct for a Liter in one month.
So we pay the price, litterally, for your energy over consumption.
<I am speaking a bit advocate of the devil here, as my bike runs 50 k to
a liter, so I am not really affected)
--
I try to take just one day at a time but
lately several days have
atacked me at once!!
rian
Besides, you do not pay enough for gas.
We pay $5.40 a gallon!!!!!
All because the american government buys the stuff up and lets You drive
around on cheap gas.
my bike does 140 miles to the gallon
And 78 miles? When we want to work that far from home and drive in a car
we do not get a tax rebate on travel anymore.
Only if you have a public tranport year-pass/
And civil servant are obliged to move to closer than 35 miles within a
year of start of employment.
Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> schreef in berichtnieuws
4mhqft4rdi2a87jvi...@4ax.com...
> On 12 May 2001 07:15:55 -0500, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> >Thank you very much americans for using AC.
>
> AC? Air Conditioning? What does that have to do with gasoline?
>
>
> >Your country is buying up oil in Europe while our biggest refinery is
in
> >maintenance.
> >Now OUR gas prices have gone up 15 $ct for a Liter in one month.
>
> Our gas prices have more than doubled last year, and are quicking
> rising again -- and the has nothing to do with consumption which
> basically has changed. It has to do with supply of crude the RICH OIL
> companies say. We too our at their mercy.
>
> I have to drive to work -- no driving, no food.
>
> >So we pay the price, litterally, for your energy over consumption.
>
> You pay the price as we do due to greedy oil companies and BIG
> business. Aren't profit making industries grand!
>
> >
> ><I am speaking a bit advocate of the devil here, as my bike runs 50 k
to
> >a liter, so I am not really affected)
>
> 50 k/l?. Please convert that to miles per gallon for this too tired
> mathematician who now needs to drive 78 miles to graduate a class.
> <G>
>
> My car gets 39 mpg on the open road.
>
> Mary
>
Bruce Glassford
>50 k/l?. Please convert that to miles per gallon for this too tired
>mathematician who now needs to drive 78 miles to graduate a class.
><G>
>
>My car gets 39 mpg on the open road.
>
>Mary
Some math geek you are, Mary - can't even convert such trivia in your
head :-)
1km = .6214 mi so 50k is 31.04 mi
1 l = .2642 US gallons
dividing, gives about 117 mpg. Rian's got your car beat big time.
However, I expect your car is somewhat larger than Rian's bike.
.... Bruce
rian
bikes)
So it will take me 3 hours to drive mary's 78 miles.
Bruce Glassford <bglas...@starpower.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
fmkqftge0gul9c03h...@4ax.com...
Diatom6
Then you'll always be right."
Well, I don't know whether Frenchmen are always right, but if a Frenchman
blames the Americans for something, other Frenchmen will always agree with him.
However, it is incorrect for Europeans to blame the Americans for the present
high gasoline prices.
Blame OPEC and the Seven Sisters. (The Seven Sisters are the seven major oil
companies, which includes a British company and a Dutch company.
rian
Many Hats <dev...@nospam.jnk> schreef in berichtnieuws
Xns909F6E594...@207.252.248.9...
> Bruce Glassford <bglas...@starpower.net> wrote in
> <fmkqftge0gul9c03h...@4ax.com>:
> A more useful criterion is passenger miles per gallon. I'm guessing
Mary's
> car can carry four people. If she carpools with three others, she's
> getting 156 passenger miles per gallon, while Rian can only get 117.
>
>
> --
> X-No-Archive: Yes is set in the header of this message.
> I would appreciate its use in any followups. Thanks.
> Many Hats
>
rian
a LITER.
Many Hats <dev...@nospam.jnk> schreef in berichtnieuws
Xns909F6DEAE...@207.252.248.9...
> "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in
> <989678836.5331....@news.demon.nl>:
>
> >No, your powerplants are buying our oil.
>
> Our powerplants run mainly on coal and natural gas.
>
> >Besides, you do not pay enough for gas.
> >We pay $5.40 a gallon!!!!!
>
> You pay too much.
>
> >All because the american government buys the stuff up and lets You
drive
> >around on cheap gas.
>
> The US government doesn't buy any oil except for government use. The
oil
> companies that do buy oil are multinationals. One of the biggest
gasoline
> sellers here is Shell -- a Dutch owned corporation that just charged
me
> $2.07/gallon.
>
> >my bike does 140 miles to the gallon
>
> How nice that you only need a bike to get around on.
>
> >And 78 miles? When we want to work that far from home and drive in a
car
> >we do not get a tax rebate on travel anymore.
>
> We don't get tax rebates on travel to work at all.
>
> >Only if you have a public tranport year-pass/
>
> Public transport where I live does not go anywhere I want to go and
takes
> hours to get where it does go.
>
> >And civil servant are obliged to move to closer than 35 miles within
a
> >year of start of employment.
>
> I haven't been a civil servant for 30 years.
TobusRex
are hydro , geothermal, or nuclear. If you are referring to fuel oil....that
isn't used to power air conditioners.
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989678836.5331....@news.demon.nl...
Roger Shoaf
> Thank you very much americans for using AC.
Your welcome. I think I speak for all Americans when I say that if we can
run our air conditioners so we don't have to sweat and smell like a bunch of
unwashed Europeans and the price we have to pay is that the guilt in knowing
that the Dutch have to pay another 15 cents per liter for gasoline then that
is a price we are willing to let the Dutch pay.
--
Roger Shoaf
If you are not part of the solution, you are not dissolved in the solvent.
Diatom6
OPEC nations. This would have to be done by governments because the user
doesn't know where his gasoline is coming from.
Each OPEC nation in turn will be subjected to the rolling boycott. No tanker
ships will be allowed to load oil from that nation. Pipelines from the nation
to other countries will be shut off at the receiving end.
After a month the boycott will be shifted to another OPEC nation. It will be
kept up until they bring the price down.
If non-boycotted OPEC countries do not increase production to make up for the
shortfall, their boycott will last twice as long when their turn comes.
Of course the gov'ts of the oil importing countries will not do that.
The gov'ts of America, Britain, and Holland could bring the price of oil down
by putting in prison the leaders of their big oil companies if they do not
break up OPEC, of which Big Oil is the leader. The necessary legislation could
easily be passed if it does not already exist in the form of antitrust laws.
But the gov'ts of America, Britain, and Holland are in the pockets of Big Oil.
Edward Kitto
ri...@infocom.demon.nl says...
> Thank you very much americans for using AC.
> Your country is buying up oil in Europe while our biggest refinery is in
> maintenance.
> Now OUR gas prices have gone up 15 $ct for a Liter in one month.
> So we pay the price, litterally, for your energy over consumption.
>
What proportion of the increase is tax? If your situation is anything
like it is here in NZ then every increase is magnified by the % tax
attached.
All that welfare has to be funded. It is a lot easier for the bureaucrats
to tee off on the oil companies(not that they are angels), aided and
abetted by the news media, when they have their own heads in the trough.
I knew an eco-aware type guy and he said that oil reserves are truly
massive and the shortages are hype. Unsupported, of course, and in stark
contrast to reports I've seen that say oil demand will outstrip supply in
10-20 years. However,
http://www.ideaadvisor.com/company/article.asp?aid=10906 would give some
credence to the former. A single reservoir at least 25 miles across is
impressive. I'm thinking of buying some PKD, sounds good anyway. Never
fear, I wouldn't do a pump and dump on ya!
FWIW the eco-guy reckoned the biggest threat to humanity was pollution of
the oceans as most of our oxygen is produced by organisms in the seas. If
they go it's all over.
TobusRex
of supply and demand.
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989668593.1166....@news.demon.nl...
Ray L
>
>No, your powerplants are buying our oil.
>Besides, you do not pay enough for gas.
>We pay $5.40 a gallon!!!!!
I'll sell you some gas for $13.50 per gallon, if it makes you even happier.
:)
Ray L
>
>Here's a solution to the high price of gasoline. Have rolling boycotts of the
>OPEC nations. This would have to be done by governments because the user
>doesn't know where his gasoline is coming from.
>
>Each OPEC nation in turn will be subjected to the rolling boycott. No tanker
>ships will be allowed to load oil from that nation. Pipelines from the nation
>to other countries will be shut off at the receiving end.
>
Allowing Iraq to freely sell oil would
greatly dilute OPEC's power. Do you think
Iraq would obey the quotas at this point?
Ray L
>
>On 12 May 2001 09:44:55 -0500, Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote:
>
>>50 k/l?. Please convert that to miles per gallon for this too tired
>>mathematician who now needs to drive 78 miles to graduate a class.
>><G>
>>
>>My car gets 39 mpg on the open road.
>>
>>Mary
>
>Some math geek you are, Mary - can't even convert such trivia in your
>head :-)
>
>1km = .6214 mi so 50k is 31.04 mi
>1 l = .2642 US gallons
>
>dividing, gives about 117 mpg. Rian's got your car beat big time.
But I bet Mary's car emits much less carbon monoxide
and stinky hydrocarbons than rian's bike.
(unless it's a really modern bike with a catalytic converter)
rian
US massive buying.
Edward Kitto <edk...@paradisew.net.wnz> schreef in berichtnieuws
MPG.156879fcf...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Diatom6
I don't know about "greatly", it would reduce it some. If we had let Saddam
Hussein take over Kuwait it would have made Iraq a bigger player in the oil
game. That would be good as long as he did not start to cooperate with OPEC.
Why does the public put up with OPEC ? They ought to be demonstrating in the
streets and voting politicians out of power until the power of OPEC is broken.
The US is the strongest economic and military power in the world. What good is
it if we allow ourselves to be exploited by the pipsqueak OPEC nations ?
Vince
coincidentally hasn't increased substantially over the last year.
But, hey, if you want/need a scapegoat, feel free. (-:
Just for you, I'll go out and buy an air conditioner.
-Vince
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living.The world owes you
nothing. It was here first.
-- Mark Twain
On 13 May 2001 02:19:29 -0500, dev...@nospam.jnk (Many Hats) wrote:
>"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in
><989729740.21287....@news.demon.nl>:
>
>>None of it is tax. Shell upped the price and the others followed due to
>>US massive buying.
>
>I'm sure Shell and your government are very happy to have you believe that.
Dave
>So why does this International Company charge you more than it does
>us?
>
>mary
The price of Gas at local Shell stations here has risen 60 cents a
gallon in about 2 months.
Close to Rian's .15/ltr
-dave
Tom Spillman
price of gasoline is because of the huge tax that is imposed...
Tom
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989693586.10502....@news.demon.nl...
Tom Spillman
including four in their US headquarters. The price of crude oil is
basically a world wide price, with minor adjustments for transportation.
The relative efficiency of refineries is similar, .i.e, it does not cost
significantly more in Europe to refine a barrel of crude than it does in the
US but there are drastic differences in the price at the pump. How come?
In Europe, the major difference is taxation. The various governments have
decided for a variety of reasons that gasoline is a good source of tax
revenue. Slowly, some of the residents are beginning to wake up to this
fact. A couple of months ago when they were having the supply problem in
the UK, they were almost ready to riot over the high taxes they were paying.
The US is approaching the point where people are beginning to realize what a
source of tax revenue gasoline is. Currently, the US government makes more
on the sale of a gallon of gasoline than the oil company does. If you take
inflation and taxes into account, a gallon of gasoline is less here than it
was thirty years ago.
In most of Europe, gasoline costs from $5.00 to $7.00 per gallon at the
pump, which is one reason you see such tiny, gas-efficient cars in Europe.
We just returned from Italy about a month ago and once again were surprised
at how small the cars are and how popular motorcycles and scooters are.
BTW, Rian, I think the "bike" you're talking about is what we would call a
moped. My wife took one to the Netherlands when we went to Europe and the
restrictions you described sound familiar. If it looks like a small
motorcycle but also has bicycle pedals, then we're talking about the same
thing. What we call a "bike" is called a "fiets" in Nederland.
FWIW, one of the most competitive businesses in the world is the oil
business. Every time there is a price increase, everyone assumes price
gouging. The FTC, the GAO, Congress and all sorts of people are regularly
investigating the oil companies, doing their best to find evidence of price
fixing and price gouging. It hasn't been found, yet.
My $.02...
Oh, I left the oil business in 1967 so I have no vested interest in oil...
Tom
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:blatft43an3bvh7tt...@4ax.com...
> On 13 May 2001 02:19:29 -0500, dev...@nospam.jnk (Many Hats) wrote:
>
> >"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in
> ><989729740.21287....@news.demon.nl>:
> >
> >>None of it is tax. Shell upped the price and the others followed due to
> >>US massive buying.
> >
> >I'm sure Shell and your government are very happy to have you believe
that.
>
> My thoughts exactly.
>
> Mary
>
CRxx
Tom Spillman heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>In most of Europe, gasoline costs from $5.00 to $7.00 per gallon at the
>pump, which is one reason you see such tiny, gas-efficient cars in Europe.
>We just returned from Italy about a month ago and once again were surprised
>at how small the cars are and how popular motorcycles and scooters are.
Of course that cars are more fuel efficient is a great thing. The sizes of
cars, and the popularity of scooters is more about size than about gasoline.
Most European cities have centres that evolved before everybody drove cars.
So there simply would not be enough room if people would want to drive
american cars.
If two american cars would park on both sides of the street i live in, the
street would be blocked. Two more modern sized European cars, leave space
for a truck. My house is 5m wide. Above me are neighbours. I have a car, my
neighbours have a car, and occasianally we have visiters with a car? Do a
little math to understand why smaller cars are more popular here than those
huge american monsters.
Christine!
rian
Mine is a scooter, but in the US a scooter is a kids toy, or the rage
right now.
It is a Yamaha mint, looks a bit like an old Vespa.
http://www.saboridomotors.com/yamaha_mint_50.htm
Mopeds and scooters have 49 cc engines on 2 tact.
50 cc is for real bikes that you need a drivers license for.
We also have mopeds and scooters that can be ridden without a helmet.
Thay cannot go faster than 20 mph outside and 17 mph inside the city.
When I drive to work, it takes 30 minutes. By car it takes 30 minutes,
by train it takes 30 minutes. The scooter is the cheapest.
Tom Spillman <tspi...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
opAL6.20368$t12.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
bronia
I believe the massive buying by the US is due to the re-stocking of strategic US reserves which became dangerously exhausted as the US tried outsmart OPEC during the last winter. It is said they became so low they could drastically limit the summer vacation traffic flows in the US.
By the way, many modern power stations can run both on oil and on coal, but I don´t know what the US situation is. Such dual firing was perfectioned in the UK during the previous oil price hike ups and also as a means to cope with a possible general strike in the coal industry.
Saludos, Bronia.
Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in article
<jhatftk6tdv1odf0r...@4ax.com> :
>On 13 May 2001 00:15:05 -0500, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
>>None of it is tax. Shell upped the price and the others followed due to
>>US massive buying.
>
>Massive buying of what by whom?
>
>Shell makes gasoline and sells it all over the world. Why would they
>sell crude oil? There has been no massive buying of Shell gas at the
>pumps.
>
>Mary
>
_______________________________________________
Submitted via WebNewsReader of http://www.interbulletin.com
bronia
Saludos, Bronia.
dia...@aol.com (Diatom6) wrote in article
<20010512224059...@ng-mc1.aol.com> :
_______________________________________________
Diatom6
>> Do away with OPEC? Better said than done. Have you got any bright ideas?
With all the economic and military clout America has, it should be quite easy
to break the OPEC cartel. But the political will in America isn't there.
Campaign contributions (bribes), you know.
Instead of attacking Iraq in the Gulf War we should have attacked Saudia
Arabia. And then America should have threatened to attack other OPEC nations
if they did not make a drastic reduction in the price of oil.
The solution to many, many problems in America is to kick out all Republicans
and all Democrats. But there's no hope of that for generations to come. Ralph
Nader showed that. He only got 3 percent of the vote in his recent bid for the
presidency.
SIERRATANGOLIMA
>about 4 gallons in a liter -- I just didn't know my how much.
>
How about 4 liters in a gallon, roughly.
>
>Most bikes do better than cars.
>
Mopeds and small motorcycles do better. Motorcycles big enough for interstate
highways get, roughly, what your car does.
Ya gotta shift most motorcycles too. Automatics in cars have been getting
better at thempg thing. A lot of the mpg depends on the driver.
Steven L.
bronia
SORRY, CHAPS, I GOT IT WRONG
- and commit harakiri.
Saludos, Bronia.
dia...@aol.com (Diatom6) wrote in article
<20010513181650...@ng-df1.aol.com> :
_______________________________________________
Tom Spillman
American cars.
I agree that the streets are often smaller. In fact, my wife, used to wider
streets, once drove a short distance down a bike path in the Netherlands
before she realized she was no longer on a street.
This is another of these chicken and egg situations. While there are not as
many as in Europe, there are many American cities that were built before the
advent of the big American car which has only been here for roughly the last
hundred years. Rightly or wrongly, the streets were widened in many cities
to accommodate the traffic. That has happened less often in Europe.
However, there are a number of cities, Paris and Rome come to mind, with
broad boulevards that are more than adequate for large cars. Like Paris,
New York City also has parking problems in the residential neighborhoods,
but unlike most European cities, parking on the sidewalk is illegal in most
American cities.
There is no question that there are cultural factors that exert influence on
this situation. Because of the large distances that many Americans travel
they would not willingly accept the level of fuel taxation that Europeans
allow. Likewise, we are continually "improving" traffic flow by widening
streets which many Europeans would not allow.
To each his own...
Tom
"CRxx" <xxroma...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
news:HgCL6.106657$XO5.8...@news.soneraplaza.nl...
Tom Spillman
However, I haven't seen a motorbike in years ( a bicycle with a motor for
power). There is a manufacturer here, Cushman, that used to make a scooter
like the Vespa (I haven't seen one in a long time -- I don't know if they
still make them or not). Most cyclists ride road bikes, mountain bikes or
hybrids (geen echte Nederlandse fiets!). Motorcycles are also ridden by a
small number of people.
Where I live, Austin, TX, they are beginning to approach the Netherlands for
cycle friendliness. There are a number of cycle paths and reserved lanes on
the streets in the city. There are a number of people pushing cycling as a
way to commute. However, unlike the Netherlands where I commuted from home
to the Centraal Station by bike and then took the train, it would not be
feasible here. The Netherlands has a maritime climate which seldom gets
really hot or cold. The high temperature this week here will be up to 32
degrees C, and we have not reached summer yet! Perspiration is a real
problem under these circumstances. I had a friend in Dallas who commuted by
bike and went to our sport complex and showered before going to the office,
a procedure that is not always feasible.
Beste wensen...
Tom
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989788303.13755....@news.demon.nl...
> I know, but bikers in the US ride motorbikes.
> Mine is a scooter, but in the US a scooter is a kids toy, or the rage
> right now.
> It is a Yamaha mint, looks a bit like an old Vespa.
> http://www.saboridomotors.com/yamaha_mint_50.htm
>
> Mopeds and scooters have 49 cc engines on 2 tact.
> 50 cc is for real bikes that you need a drivers license for.
> We also have mopeds and scooters that can be ridden without a helmet.
> Thay cannot go faster than 20 mph outside and 17 mph inside the city.
> When I drive to work, it takes 30 minutes. By car it takes 30 minutes,
> by train it takes 30 minutes. The scooter is the cheapest.
>
<snip>
rian
close to the bicycle rooms for cyclists.
A lot of them cycle in the summer the 10 miles from my town to the town
I work.
And 32?
I cycled around in Thailand in 40 C weather and found it better than
walking in that weather.
Tom Spillman <tspi...@worldnet.att.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
gFQL6.21550$4f7.1...@bgtnsc06-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Tom Spillman
Make an outrageous political statement so we can argue! <G>
Tom
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:53qvft0qs645sp3jh...@4ax.com...
> On 13 May 2001 13:50:06 -0500, "Tom Spillman"
> <tspi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
> >Once again I agree with Mary.
>
> Hey, this is getting scary! <G>
>
> Mary
>
Tom Spillman
companies have the facilities, but most don't. FWIW, 32 is in May, the
middle of spring. In August, over 45 will not be uncommon. I will go for
my daily run in the morning before it gets too hot. When I was a boy, we
survived and did all sorts of things in the heat of the summer. At that
time, the only places routinely air conditioned were movie theaters. Now, I
think we have, perhaps, become spoiled. Every house we've owned since 1968
has had central air conditioning and all of our cars for the last 25+ years
have also been air conditioned. It is the only thing that makes this
climate tolerable.
I've resigned myself to being spoiled in this way...
Tom
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989852843.7867....@news.demon.nl...
> Yes, both our city office and city hall have showers in the basement
> close to the bicycle rooms for cyclists.
> A lot of them cycle in the summer the 10 miles from my town to the town
> I work.
> And 32?
> I cycled around in Thailand in 40 C weather and found it better than
> walking in that weather.
>
<snip>
TobusRex
hazard a guess that probably $2 of that price are taxes. Ultra high taxes
are one of the benefits of a socialist country.....enjoy.
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
TobusRex
and get a 21 spd mountainbike? It's pretty easy to cruise at a steady 15 mph
on a bicycle PLUS you won't have to bitch about the price of gas. Plus,
it'll be great for getting/keeping you in shape.
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989788303.13755....@news.demon.nl...
TobusRex
it's easy for some dutchman to bitch about americans running air
conditioners. Put that same dutchman in a house in Tulsa, Oklahoma where
everyday is over 95 degrees and humidity over 80%, and I can guarantee you
he will be running the AC 24/7 until summer is over.
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:su7tftkonuk13k21r...@4ax.com...
> On 12 May 2001 15:57:29 -0500, "Roger Shoaf" <sh...@nospamsyix.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >rian <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >news:989668593.1166....@news.demon.nl...
> >
> >> Thank you very much americans for using AC.
> >
> >Your welcome. I think I speak for all Americans when I say that if we
can
> >run our air conditioners so we don't have to sweat and smell like a bunch
of
> >unwashed Europeans and the price we have to pay is that the guilt in
knowing
> >that the Dutch have to pay another 15 cents per liter for gasoline then
that
> >is a price we are willing to let the Dutch pay.
>
> It isn't just the smell -- it is in fact about staying well in
> Georgia.
>
> I believe that her climate is a lot milder that Georgia as well.
>
> As I said before, when everyone stops using heat -- we can stop using
> AC as they are the same for creature health and comfort.
>
> Mary
>
>
CRxx
Tom Spillman heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>
wider
>streets, once drove a short distance down a bike path in the Netherlands
>before she realized she was no longer on a street.
A short while ago it happened to me too. In a place where i used to come
quite frequently. I guess iwas tired ;-)
>
That has happened less often in Europe.
>However, there are a number of cities, Paris and Rome come to mind, with
>broad boulevards that are more than adequate for large cars.
Yup. Especially Paris is almost completely rebuild in Napoleonic times.
Parades were becoming fashionable for dictators.
Christine!
TobusRex
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989788303.13755....@news.demon.nl...
TobusRex
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:989852843.7867....@news.demon.nl...
Catharine Cramer
> I cycled around in Thailand in 40 C weather and found it better than
> walking in that weather.
Yes, when it's very hot and humid, cycling will at least create a little
breeze and get you to your air conditioned (let us hope) destination a
little faster.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Emotions exist to provide alibis for inexcusable behavior.
-- Sunny the Parakeet, "Frisco Pigeon Mambo"
rian
for more than 15 minutes if my life depended on it.
Besides my scooter does 30 mph, I wear a helmet. And that is fast enough
for me.
TobusRex <Wilso...@edu.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
3oTL6.2282$Az.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Catharine Cramer
> Put that same dutchman in a house in Tulsa, Oklahoma where
> everyday is over 95 degrees and humidity over 80%, and I can guarantee
> you he will be running the AC 24/7 until summer is over.
Sh*tfire, Toby, are you talking about the balmy days of early spring in
Tulsa? Any time I've been there in the summer it has been over 100
degrees, with that same sticky humidity. All same Dallas, another city
intelligently located in the middle of a huge landmass.
CRxx
Catharine Cramer heeft geschreven in bericht
<20010514134147.907$N...@newsreader.com>...
>CRxx wrote:
>
>> >If two american cars would park on both sides of the street i live in,
>> >the street would be blocked.
>
It would depend on the cardensity of the area i guess. A friend of mine
lives in the Province of Drenthe. Cars there are usually parked using 1.5x
more space as where i live.
>In one of my favorite lines from Bill Bryson, he claims that most Europeans
>park "the way I would park if I were driving along at a pretty good clip
>and someone poured a beaker of hydrochloric acid in my lap."
I guess it is the "i saw it first"principle ;-)
Christine!
CRxx
TobusRex heeft geschreven in bericht
<3oTL6.2282$Az.2...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>...
>If the fastest you can go on your "bike" is 20 mph, why dont' you dump it
>and get a 21 spd mountainbike? It's pretty easy to cruise at a steady 15
mph
>on a bicycle PLUS you won't have to bitch about the price of gas. Plus,
>it'll be great for getting/keeping you in shape.
As a former triathlete, i will take a stand for 3-gear bicycles. I would
have had one, if it weren't for the price of the gearsystem. (It is
beautiful mechanically) But suprisingly, it took me through and over
mountains better than more gear bikes. It is too easy to get a gear to light
up hill. And the speeds down hill you can reach with the third gear are
close to race bicycles under the butts of pro's. 80km/h?
Christine!
PS Of course i fail to tell i ruined both knees in the process :'-(
rian
Catharine Cramer <cat...@spamcop.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
20010514134147.907$N...@newsreader.com...
> CRxx wrote:
>
> > >If two american cars would park on both sides of the street i live
in,
> > >the street would be blocked.
>
> But if they were driven by Europeans, could they both park in the
street?
> In one of my favorite lines from Bill Bryson, he claims that most
Europeans
> park "the way I would park if I were driving along at a pretty good
clip
> and someone poured a beaker of hydrochloric acid in my lap."
>
> :)
>
> Words cannot express how much I love Bill Bryson, though I think the
latest
> book about Australia is somewhat flabby.
CRxx
rian heeft geschreven in bericht
<989863822.12971....@news.demon.nl>...
>Any part of a wheel on the sidewalk and you get a ticket.
Depends on where you live. I allways park 50% on the sidewalk where i live.
(Haarlem).In Amsterdam i would be towed away, having to pay costs and a
fine, which could be up to $250,-
Christine!
rian
Catharine Cramer <cat...@spamcop.net> schreef in berichtnieuws
20010514134639.201$3...@newsreader.com...
Tom Spillman
bikes. I bought a Peugeot hybrid (sort of a road bike with fenders and a
little fatter tires) and my wife bought a good city bike, a Koga Myata.
Both had at least ten speeds and we were very proud of them. I rode mine
almost daily while we were in Nederland. However, we soon had our pride
dampened a bit. Within the first month we took one of the bike paths North
from were we lived in Schevenigen into the dunes. For those who haven't
been there, there are a series of dunes along the coast which serves a
variety of purposes. While you could not really call the dunes hills, they
were pretty steep and long in places. I'll never forget the expression on
my wife's face. We got to the top of one of these hills and she had to stop
to catch her breath. We heard some odd noises (metallic clanking) and
around an uphill corner came this little, old Dutch lady riding a genuine
Dutch bike, big, heavy, with three speeds at most. She just kept grinding
it out and soon disappeared into the distance.
It kind of took us down a notch.
Of course, if she were seventy, she probably had been riding bikes for 65
years...
Bikes were an important means of transportation in the Netherlands. I've
even seen people moving furniture on the back of a bike. More than once
I've seen a couple, each on their own bike going out for the evening, he in
black tie and she in a long dress.
Tom
"CRxx" <xxroma...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
news:Q0VL6.796$aL1.1...@news.soneraplaza.nl...
SIERRATANGOLIMA
>
>
>Mary
>
>>>about 4 gallons in a liter -- I just didn't know my how much.
>
Well, when I first read it I thought there was something wrong, had to read it
several times to figure it out.
>What can I say -- sometimes I am a little dyslexic! <G>
>
Me too.
Steven L.
Diatom6
>> Do away with OPEC? Better said than done. Have you got any bright ideas?
Bronia <<
As a leading member of OPEC, Saudi Arabia was, and is, an enemy of the American
people. Instead of attacking Iraq we should have attacked Saudia Arabia. It
is militarily very weak and would have been a pushover. It would have saved
most of the American lives lost in the Gulf War. In fact, Saudi Arabia might
not have fought us at all if we agreed to let the sheiks keep a bit of the oil
income so they could keep their harems and some other necessities and luxuries.
Then we should have warned the other OPEC nations that they would get the same
treatment if they did not lower the price of oil.
Brunei would be even more of a pushover than Saudia Arabia. That would
demonstrate to the Far East oil-producing nations what we could do to them.
R. K. Henry
> >> Do away with OPEC? Better said than done. Have you got any bright
ideas?
> Bronia <<
>
> With all the economic and military clout America has, it should be quite
easy
> to break the OPEC cartel. But the political will in America isn't there.
> Campaign contributions (bribes), you know.
The political NEED isn't there. OPEC is a non-problem. OPEC doesn't set
prices, the market does. OPEC doesn't control production levels, it has
trouble keeping order even within its own ranks. OPEC's efforts to control the
oil market have inevitably ended in failure. Why waste time and resources
worrying about OPEC?
Worry about China. They're an up-and-coming consumer economy. That's where a
lot of the increase in oil consumption is going. Imagine: a billion Chinese
all driving SUVs.
> Instead of attacking Iraq in the Gulf War we should have attacked Saudia
> Arabia. And then America should have threatened to attack other OPEC
nations
> if they did not make a drastic reduction in the price of oil.
Iraq was attacked because it invaded a neighbor. While there are those who are
going to argue that the sole purpose of the war was over oil, and oil was
certainly involved at some level, there have to be larger issues than the
price of a barrel of oil before you commit men's lives to war. This is
business. If the price of oil gets too high you switch to something else.
Economists call them "substitute goods." There are plenty of alternatives to
oil.
Saudi Arabia is at least nominally a friend in a part of the world where the
U.S. has few friends left. Saudi Arabia has often sided with the U.S. and
risked relations with its arab neighbors by doing so. It has repeatedly
used its influence in OPEC to keep oil prices favorable to the U.S. To turn
and attack such a friend would be idiotic.
--
Bob
Ray L
>
>TobusRex wrote:
>
>> Put that same dutchman in a house in Tulsa, Oklahoma where
>> everyday is over 95 degrees and humidity over 80%, and I can guarantee
>> you he will be running the AC 24/7 until summer is over.
>
>Sh*tfire, Toby, are you talking about the balmy days of early spring in
>Tulsa? Any time I've been there in the summer it has been over 100
>degrees, with that same sticky humidity. All same Dallas, another city
>intelligently located in the middle of a huge landmass.
hot?
Last September, I took the south route to California. The temp in the
car while I drove through Phoenix was 113F, but I had decided to
do the trip without a/c just to see how much heat I could take (and save gas).
On my last leg, from El Paso to Riverside, CA, I drank over a gallon
of water, but only had to take one rest stop.
But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier.
Diatom6
levels, it has trouble keeping order even within its own ranks. OPEC's efforts
The price of gasoline went up too fast. The price must be rigged.
Diatom6
<<
That means you are skinny.
A high surface to volume ratio means there is a relatively large amount of
surface to radiate internal heat.
The internal heat will come from two sources - metabolic heat from the
oxidation of food, and heat received from the environment by radiation. The
average body temperature will be a balance between these two. The body
extremeties will be cooler than the interior of the body. Blood circulation to
the extremities could affect that.
Consider a sphere. As its size decreases, the volume decreases at a faster
rate than the surface area. Specifically, the surface area decreases with the
square of the diameter and the volume decreases with the cube of the diameter.
What is true of a sphere applies to other solid objects as well. This has
repercussions in many areas, including biology and transformer design.
All of this is a Mensan way of saying that in hot weather a fatso suffers.
Diatom6
Years ago there was an American Indian who, for the first time, saw a man
riding a bicycle. The Indian said, "White man sit down and walk like hell !"
CRxx
M. A. Pickering
> On 12 May 2001 14:13:23 -0500, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> >exactly, that same Shell today again upped the gas 2 ct. Now it is $2.45
> >a LITER.
>
> us?
I suspect it's largely tax differences.
>
> mary
>
M. A. Pickering
"Diatom6" <dia...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010515000036...@ng-mc1.aol.com...
> >> But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier. Ray
L
> <<
>
> That means you are skinny.
>
Maybe he's highly invaginated?
Mark P.
M. A. Pickering
> On 15 May 2001 00:06:01 -0500, dia...@aol.com (Diatom6) wrote:
>
> >>> But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier.
Ray L
> ><<
> >
> >That means you are skinny.
> >
> >A high surface to volume ratio means there is a relatively large amount
of
> >surface to radiate internal heat.
>
>
> Why do you continue to try to insult his/our intelligence? We all
> understood fine-- after all, we are Mensans.
Speak for yourself!
We don't need a high
> school Biology lessen -- but I guess you did if you looked it up and
> posted it.
>
The words "pot", "kettle" and "black" come to mind. Now who is
insulting who?
Mark P.
M. A. Pickering
> None of it is tax. Shell upped the price and the others followed due to
> US massive buying.
http://www.itn.co.uk/news/20000911/britain/03petrolnew.shtml
According to this site, the tax on petrol in holland is 63%.
Mark P.
M. A. Pickering
"Catharine Cramer" <cat...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:20010514134147.907$N...@newsreader.com...
> CRxx wrote:
>
> > >If two american cars would park on both sides of the street i live in,
> > >the street would be blocked.
>
> But if they were driven by Europeans, could they both park in the street?
> In one of my favorite lines from Bill Bryson, he claims that most
Europeans
> park "the way I would park if I were driving along at a pretty good clip
> and someone poured a beaker of hydrochloric acid in my lap."
>
The other curious phenomenon is that the further south in Europe, the
worse the drivers. You do not know fear until you have driven in spain
or greece.
Mark P.
Tom Spillman
to simplify things.
The 63% is a little misleading (for me).
On this page, the price per liter is 77p and the pre-tax price is 28p, thus
the tax is 49p or 63% of the price at the pump. However, you can also look
at the pump price as 275% of the pre-tax price, or, stated another way, the
tax is 175% of the pump price. FWIW, these prices obviously are in UK
pence.
The approximate price per gallon is 3.08 UK or $5.08 US and the tax is 1.96
UK or $3.23 US. The pre-tax price is 1.12 UK and $1.84 US, which is not
that different from prices many places in the US (Chicago has prices over
$2.00/gal which will account for at least some of the tax).
This, of course, confirms what we were saying about the difference between
US and European prices...
Tom
"M. A. Pickering" <mark.pi...@ucd.ie> wrote in message
news:9drnr3$p...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
JWMeritt
Are you fractal?
James W. Meritt, CISSP, CISA
Tom Spillman
Tom
"M. A. Pickering" <mark.pi...@ucd.ie> wrote in message
news:9droe2$q...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
rian
M. A. Pickering <mark.pi...@ucd.ie> schreef in berichtnieuws
9drnr3$p...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
CRxx
M. A. Pickering heeft geschreven in bericht
<9droe2$q...@chicago.us.mensa.org>...
>
>The other curious phenomenon is that the further south in Europe, the
>worse the drivers. You do not know fear until you have driven in spain
>or greece.
Try Istanbul ;-)
By the way, i do think the drivers aren't worse, just differently
interested.
Christine!
Tom Spillman
price vs. 49 p UK tax). The tax is the non-tax price times 1.75. So if you
add 10p UK, to the non tax price we'd now have 38p UK as a new non-tax
price. The tax will increase by 17.5 to 66.5 and the new pump price will be
104.5.
Note that the new pump price retains the tax ratio of 63%. However, the
increase in tax is 175% of the amount of increase, so a 10p UK increase in
the tax causes a 17.5p UK increase in tax. FWIW, all of these are based on
price per liter using Dutch tax rates.
To make these more useful, you could consider that for each 1p UK the price
increases, there is a corresponding 1.75 increase in tax.
As I said before, the governments make much more out of the oil industry
than the oil companies, and people complain about "big oil"! Seems like a
more appropriate complaint might be complaining about big government!
Tom
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:akv2gtcvjkdqrtgg5...@4ax.com...
> On 15 May 2001 13:22:35 -0500, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> >I was meaning the raises in the last 2 months by SHELL.
>
> When Shell pushes up their price, your 63% tax is added on and then
> you see the price at the pump.
>
> Mary
Michael Cargal
>The other curious phenomenon is that the further south in Europe, the
>worse the drivers. You do not know fear until you have driven in spain
>or greece.
Or Cairo. The closest I've come to dying in a taxi was clipping side
mirrors with an oncoming car at ~60 mph, just barely getting back into
the right lane after passing a truck on a 2-lane road.
--
Michael Cargal
mark lages
> Or Cairo. The closest I've come to dying in a taxi was clipping side
> mirrors with an oncoming car at ~60 mph, just barely getting back into
> the right lane after passing a truck on a 2-lane road.
Heck, that's nothing. I can do all that just backing out of a parking
space. 8^)
....Mark
Michael Cargal
<r5jM6.25375$t12.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>:
I guess I'm a weenie. It sure tightened my sphincters.
--
Michael Cargal
sam ende
"Tom Spillman" <tspi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> I apologize if all of this is too elementary for you, but at my age, I need
> to simplify things.
oh it wasn't too elementary for me. i think i got lost about the third sentence
down and went into automatic meltdown or summit like that<G>
sammi
(don't do me the math bit pleeese, it hurt!)
sam ende
what a cheek, so not only do the companies get more-the government also profits
silently through the increase in tax revenue--and then go and tell the public
it's all the fault of those 'greedy americans'.
which is what we have been told, basically. and most, like me, don't do the
math.
sammi
"Tom Spillman" <tspi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:nMfM6.24921$t12.1...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
sam ende
"M. A. Pickering" <mark.pi...@ucd.ie> wrote in message
>
> The other curious phenomenon is that the further south in Europe, the
> worse the drivers. You do not know fear until you have driven in spain
> or greece.
or/and italy.
sammi
sam ende
"CRxx" <xxroma...@multiweb.nl> wrote in message
> By the way, i do think the drivers aren't worse, just differently
> interested.
like sod everything, i'm going thataway ?:)
sammi
bi...@xnet.com
> Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in
RE: automotive air conditioning:
> >Turning on time is the high torque, not the running. Once going,
> >there is little additional drag. ...
> Sorry, that's not how A/C works. The belt is driving a compressor. It
> takes significant energy to run. It doesn't take much more to get it
> started and that only lasts a fraction of a second.
The typical automobile air conditioner consumes 3 to 5 shaft horsepower
when the compressor is running. That energy comes from the gas tank.
> >I have only driven compacts, and really haven't notice needing more
> >gas to go the same distance when the A/C is one (this is carefully
> >measure by my comuting route.)
> >It just doesn't take that much gas to turn over a compressor motor.
> >If it does, there is something not quite right with the motor.
> It's all relative. If you have a relatively powerful engine (as a Saturn
> does, believe it or not), you won't notice much difference. On a Honda
> Civic DX, on the other hand, it makes a very significant difference and
> seriously affects the car's ability to accelerate as well.
The additional fuel consumption is measurable. There are three aspects of
increased fuel consumption. 1) the operation of compressor. 2) the operation
of the electrical blower, and 3) the cost of transporting (moving and
accelerating)
the added weight of the air conditioning equipment all year round, even when
not
in use.
R. K. Henry
Just what rate of price increase do you figure wouldn't indicate a rigged
price?
The whole industry is "plugged in," every participant in the market uses
electronic communications to know instantly what's going on in the industry in
any part of the world. Anything that could affect supply/demand is instantly
entered into the pricing calculations and everyone is ready to respond. Why
should a rapid response to change indicate some kind of conspiracy?
Current gas prices are the result of factors that developed as many as five
years ago. It didn't take instant communications and rapid calculations to
figure what was going to happen.
--
Bob
Diatom6
Consumption of gasoline cannot change that fast.
Also, the oil producers have plenty of reserve capacity. All they have to do
is open the spigots a bit more.
Refinery capacity also must have reserve capacity. It would not be overwhelmed
that fast.
Why isn't a Congressional investigating committee looking into this ? They are
not. That is another indication that things are rigged.
Catharine Cramer
> You do not know fear until you have driven in spain
> or greece.
Thanks, I've been *driven* in Manila and Djakarta, and that was enough of a
thrill for one lifetime.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Emotions exist to provide alibis for inexcusable behavior.
-- Sunny the Parakeet, "Frisco Pigeon Mambo"
Tom Spillman
Last night in bed I started thinking about my posting analyzing the tax
situation for European gasoline and I decided my conclusions were unfounded.
The main problem is that I don't know how the taxes are imposed. Are they
per liter or based on the price? If the taxes are per liter, there will be
no increase in taxes as the prices goes up and the percentage of the pump
price which goes to taxes will <decrease> rather than increase. Conversely,
as the price goes down, the percentage going to taxes will increase. OTOH,
if the tax is imposed based on the price, like a sales tax or a value added
tax, my analysis holds and is correct.
I don't know what the situation actually is. Based on the way most tax
structures grow, I would be willing to bet that it is a mixture, i.e., a
proportion of the taxes are per liter and the remainder is price-based.
I don't have time now to investigate further. Perhaps one of our
Nederlander friends knows?
Tom
R. K. Henry
> >> Why should a rapid response to change indicate some kind of conspiracy?
> RKH <<
>
> Consumption of gasoline cannot change that fast.
Calculations of expected gasoline consumption can change that fast.
> Also, the oil producers have plenty of reserve capacity. All they have to
do
> is open the spigots a bit more.
Reserve capacity (assuming it actually exists) doesn't affect the price. If
the world price goes up the the selling price must go up, regardless of
whatever happens to be in reserve. Eventually that reserve will have to be
replaced and it will have to be replaced at the higher price.
> Refinery capacity also must have reserve capacity. It would not be
overwhelmed
> that fast.
Refineries get knocked offline by accidents, fires, etc. When you're running
close to capacity then a single accident can cause disruptions in supply. But
if you're forbidden to increase capacity because of environmental concerns
then there isn't any reserve capacity to take up the slack.
> Why isn't a Congressional investigating committee looking into this ? They
are
> not. That is another indication that things are rigged.
They're ALWAYS looking into this. Some politician is always whining about
investigating normal market operations. I read that the FTC just finished an
investigation without finding anything amiss.
--
Bob
CRxx
Many Hats heeft geschreven in bericht ...
>
>Never made it further south than Gibraltar, so can't comment beyond that.
How much further south would you have wanted to go in Europe?
Christine!
Richard A. Gutteling
<tspi...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>The main problem is that I don't know how the taxes are imposed. Are they
>per liter or based on the price? If the taxes are per liter, there will be
>no increase in taxes as the prices goes up and the percentage of the pump
>price which goes to taxes will <decrease> rather than increase. Conversely,
>as the price goes down, the percentage going to taxes will increase. OTOH,
>if the tax is imposed based on the price, like a sales tax or a value added
>tax, my analysis holds and is correct.
At the moment, taxes on gasoline in the Netherlands are approx. 70% of
the price of a liter. That's $0.75 in taxes, with a price of $1.11 for
one liter of unleaded fuel [1]. One of the more (in)famous parts is
the 'quarter of Kok', a "temporary" [2] tax increase of 0.25 guilder
per liter, in a rather futile attempt to persuade people to make less
use of the car and instead take the public transport. This tax was
named after our prime minister, who "invented" it.
>I don't know what the situation actually is. Based on the way most tax
>structures grow, I would be willing to bet that it is a mixture, i.e., a
>proportion of the taxes are per liter and the remainder is price-based.
That's correct. The VAT (the only part directly related to the price
per liter) on gasoline is 19%. The rest of the taxes is a fixed amount
per liter. Or:
price of gasoline per liter without taxes : $0.33
'fixed' taxes per liter: $0.72
VAT per liter: $0.06
So, Shell will get 81% of every increase in price and the dutch
government will get 19% (on top of the $0.72 they already get)
Richard.
[1] At an exchange rate of 2.52 guilders/dollar.
[2] Nothing is more permanent than the temporary.
-----------------------------------------------------
Richard A. Gutteling Rich...@dds.nl
-----------------------------------------------------
Joseph
Joseph
Many Hats wrote:
>
> Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in
> <te7tft8k76l8v206l...@4ax.com>:
>
> >On 12 May 2001 14:13:23 -0500, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> >
> >> exactly, that same Shell today again upped the gas 2 ct. Now it is
> >> $2.45 a LITER.
> >
> >So why does this International Company charge you more than it does
> >us?
>
> Because they can.
>
> --
> X-No-Archive: Yes is set in the header of this message.
> I would appreciate its use in any followups. Thanks.
> Many Hats
Ray L
>
>>> >> But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier. Ray
>
>Are you fractal?
>
>
>James W. Meritt, CISSP, CISA
I'm just kewl.
dennis curtis
correspond to a pound. Four quarts to a gallon. IKM is akin roughly to
2/3 of an English/US mile. 2K to a kilogram. --dennis
SIERRATANGOLIMA wrote:
>
> >I could see that it did as 1 KM is roughly 1/2 mile and there are
> >about 4 gallons in a liter -- I just didn't know my how much.
> >
>
> How about 4 liters in a gallon, roughly.
> >
> >Most bikes do better than cars.
> >
>
> Mopeds and small motorcycles do better. Motorcycles big enough for interstate
> highways get, roughly, what your car does.
>
> Ya gotta shift most motorcycles too. Automatics in cars have been getting
> better at thempg thing. A lot of the mpg depends on the driver.
>
> Steven L.
Ray L
>
>>> But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier. Ray L
><<
>
>That means you are skinny.
Yes.
>
>A high surface to volume ratio means there is a relatively large amount of
>surface to radiate internal heat.
>
>The internal heat will come from two sources - metabolic heat from the
>oxidation of food, and heat received from the environment by radiation. The
>average body temperature will be a balance between these two. The body
>extremeties will be cooler than the interior of the body. Blood circulation to
>the extremities could affect that.
On my way here (St Louis), I drove through Las Vegas. The weather was
so hot, I thought I would melt! Then I noticed that I had accidentally
switched on both heated seats. Why do they have to put the switches
right where I rest my right hand???
>
>All of this is a Mensan way of saying that in hot weather a fatso suffers.
>
>
On a cold day I either wear three winter jackets and imitate
a fat person, or I freeze.
Ray L
>
>On 15 May 2001 17:06:32 -0500, dev...@nospam.jnk (Many Hats) wrote:
>
>>Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in
>>>On 14 May 2001 22:19:36 -0500, Ray L<-@-.-> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Last September, I took the south route to California. The temp in the
>>>> car while I drove through Phoenix was 113F, but I had decided to
>>>> do the trip without a/c just to see how much heat I could take (and
>>>> save gas).
>>>
>>>Save gas? How much is your milleage affect by the A/C? I haven't
>>>noticed any real difference on or off.
>>
>>It depends on the size and power of your engine and some other factors, but
>>A/C is the biggest gas hog among automotive accessories. On some smaller
>>cars it can reduce gas mileage by as much as 30% when the compressor is
>>running.
>>
>>Note: _All_ power in a car ultimately comes from the gas tank. That
>>includes the electricity to run the lights, radio and fans and the torque
>>to turn the A/C compressor. Every time you turn on one of those
>>accessories, you are lowering your gas mileage.
>
>But only by the amount needed to drive that one belt -- in fact in the
>Saturn there is only one belt (not one of its best features.) I get
>the mileage as rate with the A/C on. 39 mph highway.
>
>Turning on time is the high torque, not the running. Once going,
>the alternator to store electricity.
>
>I have only driven compacts, and really haven't notice needing more
>gas to go the same distance when the A/C is one (this is carefully
>measure by my comuting route.)
>
>It just doesn't take that much gas to turn over a compressor motor.
>If it does, there is something not quite right with the motor.
>
This is in a Subaru Outback, which has a big a/c system.
I can really feel the exrtra load on the engine when I switch on
the air conditioning. It probably consumes a couple of kilowatts
of mechanical power form the engine. At highway speeds, the car
will need maybe 25 kw to propel it at 80 mph. The a/c at that
speed will not affect mileage very much, but at low speeds it
will be noticeable.
Driving without a/c through the desert probably made the car
smell like a locker room, but it didn't bother me, and I
wasn't meeting with anyone at the end of that day's driving.
dennis curtis
SIERRATANGOLIMA
>Driving without a/c through the desert probably made the car
>smell like a locker room, but it didn't bother me, and I
>wasn't meeting with anyone at the end of that day's driving.
>
>From cars I tested and tests I have heard of/read; at highway speeds you get
better mileage windows up, a/c running. The effect is more pronounced with
cars that have better drag coefficients.
Steven L.
Diatom6
--dennis <<
Here's a couple of sites that have lots and lots of info about quantities. You
can even find out how much to tip.
http://www-sci.lib.uci.edu/HSG/RefCalculators.html
http://www.mplik.ru/%7Esg/transl/capacity.html
R. K. Henry
> You will get better mileage with the windows up because of the drag
> reduction. Running the A/C can't improve mileage. It takes energy to run
> and the only source for that energy is the gas tank.
In some cars, the A/C raises the engine operating temperature resulting in
better gas mileage. The overall efficiency of gasoline engines is so low that
such relationships are quite possible.
--
Bob
Alan White
That's a new one on me. Perhaps initially for the warm up period this might be true, but once
the thermostat and cooling system kick in maximum temperature hits a ceiling.
FWIW, I met with a designer from Detroit recently about some upcoming features that would help
aerodynamics. He told me that two areas where aerodynamics will improve in the future will be in
the rear of the vehicles, where the wind gets 'sucked' back around the moving vehicle, and
underneath the chassis. If you think about how much air gets forced under a vehicle, and how
poorly the underside of cars are designed as far as fluid dynamics, you can see what he's
talking about.
Alan
(who envisions himself selling thousands of add-on spoiler kits for the undersides of vehicles
:-)
windsurfing club site: http://www.ibscc.org
Alan White
dev...@nospam.jnk (Many Hats) wrote:
>
>>FWIW, I met with a designer from Detroit recently about some upcoming
>>features that would help aerodynamics. He told me that two areas where
>>aerodynamics will improve in the future will be in the rear of the
>>vehicles, where the wind gets 'sucked' back around the moving vehicle,
>>and underneath the chassis. If you think about how much air gets forced
>>under a vehicle, and how poorly the underside of cars are designed as
>>far as fluid dynamics, you can see what he's talking about.
>
>Both old news, as far as I know. That's why modern cars tend to have
>squared off back ends instead of the old tapered designs. The abrupt
>transition allows the air stream to cleanly break away from the car instead
>of eddying around the rear surface.
Forgive me, but I don't see how a squared off back end would be an improvement over a tapered
stern as far as aerodynamics. If this were true mini-vans would have great gas mileage. Despite
their light weight and size they have terrible gas mileage. How would a tapered rear *cause* the
air stream to eddy around the rear surface?
Jets, with a long tapering stern come to mind. The fastest boats have sharp sterns, not squared
off sterns. I submit that the reason modern cars might have squared tails is for marketing
purposes, not to mention trunk space.
>
>Undersides have been improving, too, but have to allow for moving parts,
>exhaust heat rejection and maintenance access.
All of the parts that require cooling have forced air entering through the grill. Nothing
beneath the car, save for the catalytic converter, gets hot. But, the catalytic converter needs
to be hot in order to operate. At any rate, improvements are what my designer friend was talking
about. In his words, Detroit has never paid any attention to the location of parts with respect
to air flow beneath vehicles.
Sure, aerodynamics and vehicles are old news. No doubt about it. There's nothing more classier
than 1950's vintage fins.
Few designers focus on the underside, an area where air flow becomes forced and trapped. Talk
about eddies!
Alan
Ray L
'in *some* cars...' I suppse that is true.
When the a/c is switched on, the computer allows a bit more
air into the engine to compensate for the power lost to the
a/c. If this were disabled during braking, the a/c could
be used to help slow the car.
Anyone in car-designer-land listening?
dennis curtis
across the country may be more than you want to hear. It isn't only
California that is affected.
regards--dennis
SIERRATANGOLIMA
>>> you get
>>better mileage windows up, a/c running. The effect is more pronounced
>>with cars that have better drag coefficients.
>
>reduction. Running the A/C can't improve mileage. It takes energy to run
>and the only source for that energy is the gas tank.
>
the driver feel cooler, mpg wise to reduce drag.
On dyno runs the cars engines running at higher temps did get better mileage as
long as engine oil and transmission temps did not get too high.
Steven L.
dennis curtis
It is everywhere. If we could only find the actual King's belt used to
determine "standard" measurement, then we could tell those French a tine
or two. Or sing them a saga or two.
Soo-- How many gallons in a pony keg? How many quarts in a Jeroboam?
How many hectares in a square mile?
Please follow instructions. If you forget, you must take another ticket
and go to the end of the line. This may mean the Evolutionary Line, so
be
ready.
And remember, we do not care, unless you have a new principle to
expound
upon,have hit the lottery, found a way to use nitrogen as source fuel,
found much more gold, and so on....
regards---dennis
Mary wrote:.
> Except we weren't looking for such sites. Any dictionary in one's
> home has the necessary conversion data ----
>
> Mary
Alan White
Ray L<-@-.-> wrote:
>'in *some* cars...' I suppse that is true.
>
>
>When the a/c is switched on, the computer allows a bit more
>air into the engine to compensate for the power lost to the
>a/c. If this were disabled during braking, the a/c could
>be used to help slow the car.
>
>Anyone in car-designer-land listening?
>
>
Trouble is, A/C compressors cycle on and off in their own little world, independent of the rest of
the car.
Alan
(Who still bemoans the loss of cast iron York compressors from the 60's to the latest and greatest
aluminum crap)
Jeffrey Meyer
with his fatuous way of posting.
--
Jeffrey Meyer
De gustibus non est disputandum
"Mary" <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:evi2gtg2kobv0hfb2...@4ax.com...
> On 15 May 2001 00:06:01 -0500, dia...@aol.com (Diatom6) wrote:
>
> >>> But I have a high surface to volume ratio, which makes it easier.
Ray L
> ><<
> >
> >That means you are skinny.
> >
> >A high surface to volume ratio means there is a relatively large amount
of
> >surface to radiate internal heat.
>
> Does it sound like he needs to understand what he just said?
>
> Why do you continue to try to insult his/our intelligence? We all
> understood fine-- after all, we are Mensans. We don't need a high
> school Biology lessen -- but I guess you did if you looked it up and
> posted it.
>
> Mary
>
Ray L
>
>In article <4g0N6.6988$6j3.5...@www.newsranger.com>,
> Ray L<-@-.-> wrote:
>
>>'in *some* cars...' I suppse that is true.
>>
>>
>>When the a/c is switched on, the computer allows a bit more
>>air into the engine to compensate for the power lost to the
>>a/c. If this were disabled during braking, the a/c could
>>be used to help slow the car.
>>
>>Anyone in car-designer-land listening?
>>
>>
>
>Trouble is, A/C compressors cycle on and off in their own little world, independent of the rest of
>the car.
>
>Alan
So?
The car's computer does know when the a/c clutch is engaged, and it
knows when the brakes are applied. During braking, the extra air
supply used to maintain engine speed during a/c operation, is not needed.
Maybe in some cars this is already done.