Is business a science???
UnclePete
where will be the market even just a year from now.
Whenever I see analists on TV they always explain what happened in hindsight,
and not what is going to happen.
I believe business is not a science because of the so many variables in the
formula, but rather gambling and instinct. For example let's take George Soros.
After being in the business life for decades he was still able to loose
something like 15% of his asstes. Now that's not what I call foreseeing.
So is business an exact science??
Doug Chandler
> I am thinking here about the stock market, and that no 2 businessmen agree
>on
>where will be the market even just a year from now.
> Whenever I see analists on TV they always explain what happened in
>hindsight,
>and not what is going to happen.
The analysts you see on TV are working at that job because they need the money.
If they were genuine market experts, prognosticators and predictors they
wouldn't be there in front of the camera.
You wrote "analists." Was that deliberate?
Doug Chandler
JWMeritt
>
>The analysts you see on TV are working at that job because they need the
>money.
> If they were genuine market experts, prognosticators and predictors they
>wouldn't be there in front of the camera.
Or on the telephone. Or small shops by the road with cheap "fortune teller"
signs.
If any could accurately "predict the future" more than 15 seconds in advance,
they would get rich in Atlantic City or Vegas right off the bat, then get
famous cleaning up on the stock market and the scientific community (the first
by ALWAYS choosing right, the latter in parascientific circles)
James W. Meritt, CISSP, CISA
National Security Team
Booz*Allen & Hamilton
bi...@xnet.com
snip
> I believe business is not a science because of the so
> many variables in the formula, but rather gambling and
> instinct.
snip
> So is business an exact science??
You gave your answer, so why ask the question?
rian
But Business does not belong.
Economics does, though.
Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> schreef in berichtnieuws
ij8j7tc2p4agotsu0...@4ax.com...
> No, he said it wasn't a science. Now he wants to know if it is an
> exact science instead (I guess).
>
> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
>
> Mary
>
> >
> >bi...@xnet.com
> >
> >
>
> -
> Mary
>
> Spelling errors intentionally left in for those ignorant
> persons who find it necessary to boost their own frail
> self-concept by putting others down.
>
bi...@xnet.com
> On 1 Feb 2001 11:57:57 -0600, <bi...@xnet.com> wrote:
> >snip
> >snip
> No, he said it wasn't a science. Now he wants to know if it is an
> exact science instead (I guess).
> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
An "exact science" is a subset of "science. If it isn't
a science it cannot ever be an exact one.
bi...@xnet.com
> On 1 Feb 2001 13:31:41 -0600, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> >The translation of science in German and Dutch is Knowing-ship
> >But Business does not belong.
> >Economics does, though.
> No. Business and Economics use some mathematics/science
> in processing data, but they are NOT a science.
Inherent in the definitions of science is a word
left out but understood, "predictable" or in other
terms, repeatability.
We have, thus, a problem of scale. Given a very small
model, business and economics can become predictable
and repeatable. Such very limited cases are the exception.
Large models cannot avoid the unpredictability of human
emotional involvement in decision making. Statistically
based predictions cannot predict any specific outcome.
Mark Pickering
> exact science instead (I guess).
>
> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
>
>
You'd be surprised how few people do...
Mark P.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
Business and investing in the stock market are two different things.
Neither is a science as defined by the scientific method.
You want exact? Invest in US Savings Bonds or insured CDs.
--
The Polymath (aka: Jerry Hollombe) "There are no good plan Bs. If
http://home.pacbell.net/polymath/ they were good, they'd be plan A."
http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/ -- The Magic School Bus
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> >But Business does not belong.
> >Economics does, though.
>
> data, but they are NOT a science.
Econimists refer to their discipline as "the dismal science." I'd class
it as one of the social sciences, like psychology.
rian
> >But Business does not belong.
> >Economics does, though.
>
> data, but they are NOT a science.
>
JWMeritt
>> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
>>
>> Mary
>>
>
>You'd be surprised how few people do...
I suspect you are conversing with one.
bi...@xnet.com
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> You want exact? Invest in US Savings Bonds or insured CDs.
Nonsense. One knows only what the dollar amount
at the end of term will be, with no possible way to
know what the real value (purchasing power) of
that money will be. Still ordinary gambling.
Joseph
scientists reject it, as teh math content makes it truly dismal for
them.
Joseph
UnclePete
science.
As business goes, it can't be science, because:
1 : the state of knowing : knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or
misunderstanding
2 a : a department of systematized knowledge as an object of study <the ~ of
theology>
b : something (as a sport or technique) that may be studied or learned like
systematized knowledge <have it down to a ~>
3 a : knowledge or a system of knowledge covering general truths or t he
operation of general laws esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method
b : such knowledge or such a system of knowledge concerned with the physical
world and its phenomena : NATURAL SCIENCE
4 : a system or method reconciling practical ends with scientific laws
<culinary ~>
So none of them fits business. My poetic question would be : Just how much
those economists know, who practice business???
(If I were an economics student, I would first ask my professor to show me
his saving account and after that we can have the class.)
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> > Mary wrote:
> > > On 1 Feb 2001 13:31:41 -0600, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> > >
> > > >The translation of science in German and Dutch is Knowing-ship
> > > >But Business does not belong.
> > > >Economics does, though.
> > >
> > > No. Business and Economics use some mathematics/science in processing
> > > data, but they are NOT a science.
> >
> > Econimists refer to their discipline as "the dismal science." I'd class
> > it as one of the social sciences, like psychology.
Joseph wrote:
>
> They would if they could but the math content makes the old order social
> scientists reject it, as teh math content makes it truly dismal for
> them.
A common misconception, I think. One of the more unpleasant surprises
psychology students encounter is the amount of math they have to learn
in the field of statistical analysis and experimental design.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> ... Just how much
> those economists know, who practice business???
>
> (If I were an economics student, I would first ask my professor to show me
> his saving account and after that we can have the class.)
Knowledge and behavior are two different things. I know one economist
who is chronically unemployed and nearly six figures in debt. I know
another one who has employers beating down her door and commands
salaries well into six figures. The differences between them, from what
I can see, are matters of life style choices.
rian
teach Highschool, business pays them too much.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> schreef in
berichtnieuws 3A7A31BD...@pacbell.net...
rian
examinationpackage of all people-sciences.
The only students not needing math are language mayors, theologicans and
law students
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> schreef in
berichtnieuws 3A7A30F2...@pacbell.net...
rian
university, Rotterdam, Even if it is primus inter pares in the world,
she says: I they can they do medicine, if tjey can't HM.
She teaches them the math and tells me she sees a lot of blank stares.
Also in the foreign students she taught in Basel a few weeks back.
UnclePete <petib...@aol.comic> schreef in berichtnieuws
20010201183505...@ng-cq1.aol.com...
bi...@xnet.com
> (If I were an economics student, I would first ask my
> professor to show me his saving account and after that
> we can have the class.)
He who can does, he who cannot teaches.
sam ende
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> A common misconception, I think. One of the more unpleasant surprises
> psychology students encounter is the amount of math they have to learn
> in the field of statistical analysis and experimental design.
not really anymore, nowadays it's more the use of statistical packages on
computers :). we had classes (workshops) dedicated to just that, though , of
course, one still has to know which analysis to apply which in turn depends
on design.
sammi
UnclePete
business.
Anyway, reading the definition of social science I came to the conclusion,
that social science is anything, that is not exact but we want to make it like
that.
Let's see:
Social science:
> 1 : a branch of science that deals with the institutions and functioning of
human society and with the interpersonal relationships of individuals as
members of society
I guess religion qualifies.
> 2 : a science (as economics or political science) dealing with a particular
phase or aspect of human society
Oh come on. Why would anybody call political science a science?? Because
there are analysts in it??? According to these definitions (Miriam-Webster) any
pseudoscience what has anything to do with humans qualifies as science.
I guess I am just ranting here, but my point is, that these so called social
scientist are a bunch of magician.
Mark Pickering
"Mary" <nu...@georgia.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:bdZ6OlLMs+IRTK...@4ax.com...> <snip>
> >> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
> >>
> >> Mary
> >>
> >
> >You'd be surprised how few people do...
> >
> >Mark P.
>
> biology, journalism, business, education majors are NOT liberal arts.
I'm not sure I know what liberal arts are myself; the term isn't used here.
Actually, here there is no such thing as pre-med degrees, or biology
degrees for that matter. All of the degree courses offered in this
country are much more subject specific (e.g.no biology degrees,
but pharmacology degrees, zoology degrees, physiology degrees
etc.).
>
> The first two are science degrees, and the later three professional
> degrees.
>
> How many liberal arts can you name? <G>
>
As I said, I'm not sure what the term means.
> Mary
Mark Pickering
> Mark Pickering wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >> What is really surprising is how many don't know that pre-med,
> >> biology, journalism, business, education majors are NOT liberal arts.
> >
> >I'm not sure I know what liberal arts are myself; the term isn't used
here.
> >Actually, here there is no such thing as pre-med degrees, or biology
> >degrees for that matter. All of the degree courses offered in this
> >country are much more subject specific (e.g.no biology degrees,
> >but pharmacology degrees, zoology degrees, physiology degrees
> >etc.).
>
>
> The term Liberal Arts I believe comes to us from Britain --
>
> English, History, Mathematics, etc. are the liberal arts
That's what I thought. Here, the terms would be Arts (Letters) and
Arts (Humanities) for social sciences etc.
>
> Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy (or parts thereof as above) are
> the sciences.
Are degrees given in biology, or the constituent subjects? I have
met Americans with general biology degrees. Is this usual? Is
further specialisation restricted to postgraduate level?
Oh, and I'm still unsure as to what premed actually is.
>
> psychology, economics, etc. the social sciences
>
> Business, Education, journalism, etc -- ones that prepare you for
> specific employment are professional degrees.
>
> Mary
rian
Mark Pickering <mark.pi...@ucd.ie> schreef in berichtnieuws
95er8t$q...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> Oh, and I'm still unsure as to what premed actually is.
>
rian
Those professional degrees you mention are our Higher Professional
Education degrees. After them you need to do a real subject for 1 year
at uni to get a Mr.
The there are Alpha subjects: languages, law, economics, history,
Geography
Beta subjects: the mathematical faculty: physics, chemistry,
astronomics, mathematica and the medical faculty: medicine, vets,
pharmacy, biology, sportscience etc. and the others like: environment,
health and food, forrestry (all very theuretical)
Gamma subjects: all things that end in -logy not mentioned alreafy:
anthropology, psychology, etc,
Economics, Management and all modern derivatives.
For instance: a journalist first has his HBO, then goes to university to
get a master in Dutch.
Or teacher first goes to HBO to get a second degree teaching and then
goes to university to study their subject for a first degree (all
teachers here teach only one thing),
or the gradeschool teacher (has no subject) goes on to get a degree in
Paedagogy.
Mary <nu...@georgia.us.mensa.org> schreef in berichtnieuws
eeh6OqA0fokX+HT8s=syQE=qE...@4ax.com...
> Mark Pickering wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> >> What is really surprising is how many don't know that pre-med,
> >> biology, journalism, business, education majors are NOT liberal
arts.
> >
> >I'm not sure I know what liberal arts are myself; the term isn't used
here.
> >Actually, here there is no such thing as pre-med degrees, or biology
> >degrees for that matter. All of the degree courses offered in this
> >country are much more subject specific (e.g.no biology degrees,
> >but pharmacology degrees, zoology degrees, physiology degrees
> >etc.).
>
> Those are all sciences.
>
> The term Liberal Arts I believe comes to us from Britain --
>
> English, History, Mathematics, etc. are the liberal arts
>
> Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy (or parts thereof as above) are
> the sciences.
>
> psychology, economics, etc. the social sciences
>
> Business, Education, journalism, etc -- ones that prepare you for
> specific employment are professional degrees.
>
> Mary
>
> >
> >>
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe) <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
> > A common misconception, I think. One of the more unpleasant surprises
> > psychology students encounter is the amount of math they have to learn
> > in the field of statistical analysis and experimental design.
>
> not really anymore, nowadays it's more the use of statistical packages on
> computers :). we had classes (workshops) dedicated to just that, though , of
> course, one still has to know which analysis to apply which in turn depends
> on design.
Precisely. I had to take statistical analysis and experimental design
classes right through graduate school, just for my master's. The
studies would have continued if I had continued on for my doctorate.
The object was not to make us into statisticians (though that was one
result), but to enable us to read published research papers with a
knowledgeable, critical eye, as well as do a proper job of setting up
our own research.
Any boob can plug numbers into a computer program. It takes a
statistician to know which numbers, what computer program and whether
the output is meaningful.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
I suspect you are unclear on the definition of "science," and so cannot
understand why things like psychology and economics can reasonably be
called such.
The Polymath (Jerry Hollombe)
> "Mary" <nu...@georgia.us.mensa.org> wrote in message news:eeh6OqA0fokX+HT8s=syQE=qE...@4ax.com...
> > Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy (or parts thereof as above) are
> > the sciences.
>
> Are degrees given in biology, or the constituent subjects? I have
> met Americans with general biology degrees. Is this usual? Is
> further specialisation restricted to postgraduate level?
Essentially, yes. A bachelor's degree will generally be in something
like "biology" or "psychology," though there may be specific course
concentrations taken depending on graduate goals. Graduate school is
where you get into specifics like "clinical psychology" vs.
"experimental psychology."
> Oh, and I'm still unsure as to what premed actually is.
Usually it's biology with course concentrations in human biology.
bi...@xnet.com
> I guess I am just ranting here, but my point is, that these
> so called social scientist are a bunch of magician.
I thought a magician did tricks. I see social scientists
produce no tricks whatever, only boredom.
bi...@xnet.com
> <bi...@xnet.com> wrote:
> >Mary <nu...@testweb.us.mensa.org> wrote in message
> <Snip>
> >> No, he said it wasn't a science. Now he wants to know if it is an
> >> exact science instead (I guess).
> >> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
> >An "exact science" is a subset of "science. If it isn't
> >a science it cannot ever be an exact one.
> Of course, so tell the poster that instead of me. <G>
He/she/it can (perhaps) read and (perhaps) comprehend.
Catharine Honeyman
> > Oh, and I'm still unsure as to what premed actually is.
> >
> I think they mean the first 2/3 years of medicine.
No. Pre-med is generally one's undergraduate work, before one gets into
medical school. I don't know of any degree program that has a pre-med
degree per se... most people going into medical school major in chemistry,
biochemistry, or something like that. There was a brief fad a few years
ago for liberal arts degrees for med students, something about making them
better-rounded people or something like that.
My oncologist's undergraduate and first graduate degrees are actually in
classical literature. He taught Greek at Yale for several years before
getting the call to medicine. He's way cool.
I know a very interesting and unusual person whose undergraduate degree was
a bachelor's degree in nursing. She worked as a nurse as a couple of
years, then went on to medical school. Now THAT is what I call a
well-rounded doctor.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Emotions exist to provide alibis for inexcusable behavior.
-- Sunny the Parakeet, "Frisco Pigeon Mambo"
rian
year is Bachelor, 3 more years is Master, 3 more years of internships
and special branch studies makes a MD, but they only become Doctor of
Medicine when they take a PhD thingy.s=t6OkOTHR10foDPTGOmqLUpTyr=@4ax.com...
> school. See other post.
>
> Mary
>
> >
>
sam ende
The Polymath
> Precisely. I had to take statistical analysis and experimental design
> classes right through graduate school, just for my master's. The
> studies would have continued if I had continued on for my doctorate.
> The object was not to make us into statisticians (though that was one
> result), but to enable us to read published research papers with a
> knowledgeable, critical eye, as well as do a proper job of setting up
> our own research.
here it depends on degree classification and what one intends to do with it.
when i began i was enrolled in mixed degree (forget the proper term) in
english and psychology which would have been classed as a BA, with that
though i would have had difficulties going on to do a masters as to do the
masters a minmum amount of research methods is needed so i switched to a
full psychology degree classed as a Bsc(hons) with research methods
consisting about 1/3 o a half of the course.
which meant, obviously i would't have to do that later in the masters, but
master degrees in psychology usually come under the umbrella term 'research
methods' anyway regardless of theme/school whatever.
> Any boob can plug numbers into a computer program. It takes a
> statistician to know which numbers, what computer program and whether
> the output is meaningful.
absolutely. it's part of the design you need to know what you're doing and
which analysis is relevent/ is needed for which design.
i, for one am truely grateful the days of calculting chi square by hand are
obsolete-though i have done it.
sammi
dennis curtis
take a very deep breath when someone else does not get an explanation of
science. Am I close?==-dennis
Mary wrote:
>
> On 1 Feb 2001 11:57:57 -0600, <bi...@xnet.com> wrote:
>
> >UnclePete <petib...@aol.comic> wrote in message
> >
> >snip
> >
> >> I believe business is not a science because of the so
> >> many variables in the formula, but rather gambling and
> >> instinct.
> >
> >snip
> >
> >> So is business an exact science??
> >
> >You gave your answer, so why ask the question?
>
> No, he said it wasn't a science. Now he wants to know if it is an
> exact science instead (I guess).
>
> Personally, I don't think he knows what a science is.
>
UnclePete
democratic political science
dennis curtis
Von Neumann, MichaelAngelo, Del Sarto, Bellini, Rembrandt, Hoffman,
Ruebens, Yeats, and a few others teach or accept students at one time or
another? Fact is, they did. I took several seminars with some of the
most
famous artists of my day. Those that do, DO!!!!--dennis
Mary wrote:
> Bill,
>
> I tire of that cliche that is completely untrue.
>
> In fact, if you look harder, you will find many of the best and
> brightest in education. They take less money (and less stress) to
> help others to suceed.
>
> Teaching, for one thing, has more job security and less stress that
> those out there playing silly, ruthless, corporate manueverings.
>
> He who solicits by phone has a failing business.
>
> Mary
PSmith9626
On the other hand, mathematicians have gotten rich off the market by using
math.
Consider Thorpe ( the inventor of card-counting and computer trades) or Jim
Simons who gave up a professorship at Stonybrook for a mansion on the north
shore.
Wall Street hires mathematicians at a very high salary.
I must confess, I have felt the temptation.
best
penny
>Message-id: <20010201095901...@ng-mq1.aol.com>
Mark Pickering
> Mark Pickering wrote:
> <snip>
> >> English, History, Mathematics, etc. are the liberal arts
> >
> >That's what I thought. Here, the terms would be Arts (Letters) and
> >Arts (Humanities) for social sciences etc.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Astronomy (or parts thereof as above) are
> >> the sciences.
> >
> >Are degrees given in biology, or the constituent subjects?
>
> in subsets of it in some schools.
>
We get a lot of Americans coming over here to study medicine. They all
hold degrees already, whereas the Irish students, in the same classes, are
straight out of secondary school (high school). Some of them are well
above the acceptable standard in the first 2 years, but it tends to even out
after that. What is interesting is the range of abilities. There was one
student
who failed first year biology, despite holding a degree in biology!
I suppose it is just different here. There is a very small number of
universities
in Ireland, so the standard doesn't vary too much. I guess in larger
countries
there are more exceptional colleges, but more at the other end too.
Mark P.
>
> >I have
> >met Americans with general biology degrees. Is this usual? Is
> >further specialisation restricted to postgraduate level?
> >
>
> No. I know a few with B.S. degrees in areas such as microbiology. A
> lot more of the specilization is at the Masters level.
>
> >Oh, and I'm still unsure as to what premed actually is.
>
> Basically a General Biology degree with the Chemistry/Organic
> Chemistry, Anatomy and Physiology, etc. desided for medical school.
>
> Mary
>
Bronia
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> My daughter is with the Health Management department of Erasmus
> university, Rotterdam, Even if it is primus inter pares in the world,
> she says: I they can they do medicine, if tjey can't HM.
> She teaches them the math and tells me she sees a lot of blank stares.
> Also in the foreign students she taught in Basel a few weeks back.
>
Rian, you may recollect I met quite a few blank faces in this newsgroup
when I outlined my concept of *the mathematics of faith*. While many
mathematical disciplines are useful tools of established business, the
mathematics for the enterpreneur still has to be formulated, I think.
It has to be based on a suitably adapted algebra of fuzzy sets. My boss
who made it rather quickly to the directorship of a major international
company used to tell me: *Bronia, don´t bother about the details. See
and follow the broad picture. It is not the decimal points you should
concentrate on. Rather the powers of ten*. Also, a banker told me once:
*We don´t back people who think linear. We are looking for men who
think exponential*.
So there we are (or were).
Saludos, Bronia.
--
SATOR AREPO TENET OPERA ROTAS
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/