IMPORTANT CHANGE TO MTM NEWSGROUP
gistak
change pretty soon.
The main change from our point of view is that the newsgroups will no longer
be on public Usenet (the newsgroup will not be available from other than a
single server). Therefore, there will be two distinct ways of posting to and
reading posts from the group (but all posts will look the same to everyone
reading them. That is, no matter how you post, your post will be available
to everyone in the group, and will look the same as every other post).
Here's how they break down:
#1. Mensa members can read and write posts through a news reader, very much
as they do today. There will be some instruction later as to how to sign in
as a member.
#2. Anyone who is NOT a Mensa member, and any Mensa member who wishes to,
may read and write posts through an email list. They will not have to
authenticate. To sign up for the list, go to
https://mailman.mensa.org/listinfo/mensa-talk-misc . Note - this requires
https, not just http.
This is how Mensa International has decided to go with its resources, and
hopefully we can make this change without losing the great discussion that
we've had for so long here at MTM.
The way it looks now, this change will be made within the next week or so.
Registration for the email list is active now.
I'm certain there will be many questions as we proceed with this move, and
the moderators will do our best to get them answered.
P
BruceS
just like to say this has been a great group. The free interchange of ideas,
the reasonably polite behavior, and the keen sense of humor from many
participants has created a valuable community. I'll continue to respond to
email as it suits me, and will haunt ROM as well. I've not used an email
mechanism before for a newsgroup, so I don't know whether that will be
workable or not. If not, thank you and good night.
P.S., couldn't *anyone* make a reasonable stab at my number sequence puzzle?
"gistak" <gis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:av4k4k$h...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Feek O'Hanrahan
> #1. Mensa members can read and write posts through a news reader,
> very much as they do today. There will be some instruction later as
> to how to sign in as a member.
>
> #2. Anyone who is NOT a Mensa member, and any Mensa member who wishes
> to, may read and write posts through an email list. They will not
> have to authenticate. To sign up for the list, go to
> https://mailman.mensa.org/listinfo/mensa-talk-misc . Note - this
> requires https, not just http.
So basically, the news server is only going to be available to Mensa
members, and anyone else will use an email list.
> This is how Mensa International has decided to go with its resources,
> and hopefully we can make this change without losing the great
> discussion that we've had for so long here at MTM.
It'll sure make an impact. Personally, I'll subscribe to the email list, but
if it gets to be too much of a pain in the keister.... :)
--
"This is my father's favorite medical text book. Read it long enough
and it will show you the error of your ways" - Charity Trask, "Dark
Shadows"
Steven
> #1. Mensa members can read and write posts through a news reader, very
much
> as they do today. There will be some instruction later as to how to sign
in
> as a member.
> This is how Mensa International has decided to go with its resources...
This should make a lot of Mensans happy, especially moderators.
Will Mensa members outside the US, have newsreader access?
Steven (member of Mensa Australia)
Gistak
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
Yes. This is an International Mensa server and all Mensans will have access
to it.
P
Gistak
O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> wrote:
> gistak wrote:
>
>> #1. Mensa members can read and write posts through a news reader,
>> very much as they do today. There will be some instruction later as
>> to how to sign in as a member.
>>
>> #2. Anyone who is NOT a Mensa member, and any Mensa member who wishes
>> to, may read and write posts through an email list. They will not
>> have to authenticate. To sign up for the list, go to
>> https://mailman.mensa.org/listinfo/mensa-talk-misc . Note - this
>> requires https, not just http.
>
> So basically, the news server is only going to be available to Mensa
> members, and anyone else will use an email list.
>
>> This is how Mensa International has decided to go with its resources,
>> and hopefully we can make this change without losing the great
>> discussion that we've had for so long here at MTM.
>
> It'll sure make an impact. Personally, I'll subscribe to the email list, but
> if it gets to be too much of a pain in the keister.... :)
>
Yep. I totally understand.
P
Belf da Dog
"gistak" wrote...
> Mensa.talk.misc and all other mensa.* newsgroups will be going through a
> change pretty soon.
>
> The main change from our point of view is that the newsgroups will no
longer
> be on public Usenet
As a non-member, it was kind of pretentious for me to be posting here in the
first place, posting sincerely stated arguments (if not so sincerely
believed). I'm not sure of my motivations -- I'll ask the barmaid what she
thinks.
Nice news group. Wish y'all well.
Belf da Dog
Adina Sobo
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> writes:
>This should make a lot of Mensans happy, especially moderators.
Why? Personally, speaking as one of the people who's currently
moderating, I'm not especially happy. Of course, this is mostly
because my system is being very recalcitrant about the new
software I'll need.
Anyone know if there's a place where Outlook Express can be
downloaded by itself, without the 2.5 hours it will take me to
pick up a newer version of Internet Explorer?
- - - Adina
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one great thing."
-- Archilochus (fragment 103)
http://members.aol.com/adinas/index.html
Jeffrey Meyer
"Gistak" <gis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BA3B7ECE.16DC%gis...@hotmail.com...
That's good.
--
Jeffrey
South Africa
>
> P
>
rian
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Belf da Dog" <d...@sniff.org> schreef in bericht
news:ZZpR9.92610$Zv4.6...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Gistak
ZZpR9.92610$Zv4.6...@news2.telusplanet.net, "Belf da Dog" <d...@sniff.org>
wrote:
It was not pretentious at all to post here. It was expected and hoped that
non-members would post here. And it is expected and hoped that they will
continue to post, using the email list.
P
PSmith9626
I am not going to clutter my e-mail with another list. I currently get three
lists.
Look for me on RTM.
best
penny
>Nice news group. Wish y'all well.
>
>Belf da Dog
Invade RTM.
Gistak
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote:
Do you mean ROM, or is there something else I don't know about?
P
zookumar
What is RTM and where can I purchase the stuff?
-zookumar-
rian
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20030104113616...@mb-ct.aol.com...
Gary Pomeroyq
I signed up for the email list.
One thing that I'm thinking I don't like about the new set up is that there
will be no archive on Google for people like me to search. I enjoy reading
old posts from other people, etc. And sometimes a Google search helps one to
avoid looking like a complete idiot :)
Not to be too negative, just a point that occurred to me.
Tracy Yucikas
"Gary Pomeroyq" <para...@attbi.com> wrote in message
news:BA3C4ECF.117E3%para...@attbi.com...
I think that you can create your own archive if you save all the
sent emails (my impresion is that this will be a "new" list and
a person can "get in on the ground floor" if you choose to.
Gistak
Pomeroyq" <para...@attbi.com> wrote:
I believe that a searchable archive will be stored. Let me find out for
sure.
P
Bruce Glassford
wrote:
>>
>> I signed up for the email list.
>>
>> One thing that I'm thinking I don't like about the new set up is that
>there
>> will be no archive on Google for people like me to search. I enjoy reading
>> old posts from other people, etc. And sometimes a Google search helps one
>to
>> avoid looking like a complete idiot :)
>>
>> Not to be too negative, just a point that occurred to me.
>>
>
>I think that you can create your own archive if you save all the
>sent emails (my impresion is that this will be a "new" list and
>a person can "get in on the ground floor" if you choose to.
>
I believe that the software maintains a web-accessable archive as well
- the e-mail can be handled through a web interface. I haven't played
with it yet - I'm also not involved in the new environment, so am not
100% familiar with it.
... Bruce
Steven
> >This should make a lot of Mensans happy, especially moderators.
>
> Why? Personally, speaking as one of the people who's currently
> moderating, I'm not especially happy. Of course, this is mostly
> because my system is being very recalcitrant about the new
> software I'll need.
Is your system being recalcitrant related to AOL?
I've heard AOL makes using the internet
challenging once you get past the basics.
> Anyone know if there's a place where Outlook Express can be
> downloaded by itself, without the 2.5 hours it will take me to
> pick up a newer version of Internet Explorer?
>
Because of security issues with Internet Explorer and
Outlook Express using the latest version and all the
patches may be worth it in the long run.
The latest version of Outlook Express is much safer as it
gives you the option to read all messages in plain text.
Steven
Feek O'Hanrahan
Maybe RTFM?
Joseph Weinstein
access this group (or it's descendent) via standard newsreaders
will be posted here. I hope that's true!
thanks,
Joe Weinstein at BEA (j...@bea.com)
PSmith9626
Yes. ROM.
best
penny
PSmith9626
Yes. But, I am not going to pay dues for a newsgroup.
best
penny
p.s. I just spent over an hour on one of my e-mail lists discussing Sartre,
Sakarov's theory of quantum gravity, Gunter Grass,
Type Ia supernova, and Basque history.
( it is a private list, invitation only). I very much enjoy it and it is free.
I had planned to do math when I woke up.
I have to cut down on internet groups and lists as they are eating my life, and
this change in MTM is a convienent excuse.
I don't plan to post much on ROM either.
If any of my friends here misses me, you know my e-mail addy.
>Well, you could join Mensa and then use a news reader. : - )
Yes, I suspect that is the reason why Mensa has done this. It is just like lots
of other web things that are going commercial and charging a fee.
But, ( not to sound harsh), this newsgroup is simply not at a high enough
intellectual level to justify my paying dues.
Henry Chang
>
>This is how Mensa International has decided to go with its resources, and
>hopefully we can make this change without losing the great discussion that
>we've had for so long here at MTM.
I've seen debates before about why Mensa has such a low membership
percentage among qualified people.
Closing off Mensa newsgroups is a marketing mistake if Mensa wants to
expand it's membership among qualified people.
OTOH, if Mensa wants to be an insular group, then it is not a mistake.
Henry
Steven
> I've seen debates before about why Mensa has such a low membership
> percentage among qualified people.
>
> Closing off Mensa newsgroups is a marketing mistake if Mensa wants to
> expand it's membership among qualified people.
>
> OTOH, if Mensa wants to be an insular group, then it is not a mistake.
The current arrangement has had a history of problems,
posts often go missing or take too long to appear.
It's not surprising why I'm looking forward to the new system.
I am a member of Mensa and my last post took over 9 hours to appear!
(My newsreader uses chicago.us.mensa.org)
Non-members of Mensa who are whitelisted have their posts appear
immediately.
I can understand why regulars who are not members of Mensa
will be upset by the change but this is a Mensa newsgroup
and they can still access it via the mailing list.
Pretend Mensans won't be happy.
To me it's not "Closing off Mensa newsgroups" but fixing a
problem and giving Mensa members better access to
their mensa.* newsgroups.
Henry Chang
wrote:
>
>I can understand why regulars who are not members of Mensa
>will be upset by the change but this is a Mensa newsgroup
>and they can still access it via the mailing list.
Mailing lists with a lot of people sending are just like spam.
One cannot selectively read certain threads conveniently - you have to wade
through the whole mess. I predict there will not be many non-Mensas
subscribing for long.
BTW, my post was addressing the Mensa membership issue, not an email vs.
newsreader one.
I am wondering what the goals of Mensa are with regards to it membership.
Does it want to expand or be insular?
Henry
Gistak
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
> "Henry Chang" <lhchang.t...@adelphia.net> wrote
>
>> I've seen debates before about why Mensa has such a low membership
>> percentage among qualified people.
>>
>> Closing off Mensa newsgroups is a marketing mistake if Mensa wants to
>> expand it's membership among qualified people.
>>
>> OTOH, if Mensa wants to be an insular group, then it is not a mistake.
>
> The current arrangement has had a history of problems,
> posts often go missing or take too long to appear.
>
> It's not surprising why I'm looking forward to the new system.
> I am a member of Mensa and my last post took over 9 hours to appear!
> (My newsreader uses chicago.us.mensa.org)
> Non-members of Mensa who are whitelisted have their posts appear
> immediately.
>
FYI:
No one has been (purposely) whitelisted for a long time.
P
Gistak
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote:
> dear mary,
> Yes. But, I am not going to pay dues for a newsgroup.
> best
> penny
>
No, you'd join to get that as one of the benefits.
> p.s. I just spent over an hour on one of my e-mail lists discussing Sartre,
> Sakarov's theory of quantum gravity, Gunter Grass,
> Type Ia supernova, and Basque history.
> ( it is a private list, invitation only). I very much enjoy it and it is free.
>
To be fair, the Mensa email list is free as well.
The one you're talking about is an email list and is free. The Mensa one is
an email list and is free. Same.
But the Mensa one gives you the choice to join Mensa and use your
newsreader.
<snip>
>
>
>> Well, you could join Mensa and then use a news reader. : - )
>
> Yes, I suspect that is the reason why Mensa has done this. It is just like
> lots
> of other web things that are going commercial and charging a fee.
> But, ( not to sound harsh), this newsgroup is simply not at a high enough
> intellectual level to justify my paying dues.
>
I doubt it, personally, though I don't know. There are other reasons that
I've heard that sound more likely.
P
Steven
> I predict there will not be many non-Mensas subscribing for long.
>
> BTW, my post was addressing the Mensa membership issue, not an email vs.
> newsreader one.
Would it be such a bad thing for Mensa membership if
most of the posters to mensa.* were Mensans.
Potential Mensa members may have been put off after
viewing MTM and thinking most of the posts here were
by Mensans.
Gistak
"Henry Chang" <lhchang.t...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> On 5 Jan 2003 11:39:02 -0600, "Steven" <.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g>
> wrote:
>>
>> I can understand why regulars who are not members of Mensa
>> will be upset by the change but this is a Mensa newsgroup
>> and they can still access it via the mailing list.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Mailing lists with a lot of people sending are just like spam.
>
Well, I don't like mailing lists much, but it's much different from spam in
MY opinion, though I accept that yours is different.
> One cannot selectively read certain threads conveniently - you have to wade
> through the whole mess. I predict there will not be many non-Mensas
> subscribing for long.
>
We will find out. Unfortunately, I suspect that you are right.
> BTW, my post was addressing the Mensa membership issue, not an email vs.
> newsreader one.
>
> I am wondering what the goals of Mensa are with regards to it membership.
> Does it want to expand or be insular?
>
It wants to expand. They believe that many more people will find the list
through the Web than have been through Usenet.
P
Tracy Yucikas
"Henry Chang" <lhchang.t...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:3e186eb9....@chicago.us.mensa.org...
I would predict various members would have differing
viewpoints. "Corporate entity" (qua 'Mensa') is kind of an
illusion IMHO. Tho your question might have an answer,
there's a 'problem-layer' in handling it which doesn't help
understanding.
ty
>
> Henry
>
Steven
I noticed this after reading the following post from the previous thread
Subject: moderators do not post this
"Mary" <dev...@us.mensa.org> wrote in message
news:022c1v4d0tm6uts9q...@4ax.com...
> On 3 Jan 2003 10:11:25 -0600, "Tracy Yucikas" <tyuc...@cts.com>
> wrote:
>
> >test case ...
> >if this shows up, it probably means that moderation is off
> >
> >(the recent quickness of "appeaerance" seems like
> >moderation is off or that moderatos made new years resolutions
> >too process posts reaal fast)
> >
>
> Moderation is not off -- maybe you got slipped on the 'white list'.
> All that is a moot point now since chicago.us.mensa.org as a server
> may disappear as early as Monday the 6th.
>
> See Gistak's post about the changes.
>
> Mary
>
> >ty
Gistak
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
> "Gistak" <gis...@hotmail.com> wrote
>> On 1/5/03 12:39 PM, in article av9dud$g...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "Steven"
>> <.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
>>> It's not surprising why I'm looking forward to the new system.
>>> I am a member of Mensa and my last post took over 9 hours to appear!
>>> (My newsreader uses chicago.us.mensa.org)
>>> Non-members of Mensa who are whitelisted have their posts appear
>>> immediately.
>>>
>>
>> FYI:
>>
>> No one has been (purposely) whitelisted for a long time.
>>
>> P
>
> I noticed this after reading the following post from the previous thread
> Subject: moderators do not post this
>
Key word: "slipped." As I said, no one was purposely put on the white list
Belf da Dog
"Gistak" wrote...
> snip
> no one was purposely put on the white list
> for a long time.
>
> P
I've been informed that I'm not white.
Steven L.
>compared to the number of people ever even finding this newsgroup.
>
>>
It would have helped if this group was not burried behind several web pages and
in a members only area. And if there was a clickable link to this ng. ROM is
relatively easy to find, and if you ask a question about Mensa there, the
answer may be unkind, to say the least. Leading one to a negative reaction to
Mensa.
If the ng was a flop, it was designed to be one, on purpose or not.
While I am able to communicate here, what is https, and why that and not the
more common http?
Steven L.
Steve Levinthal
International. Contrary to some of what I've seen recently, I'm not the
"corporate entity". I'm just a guy who's a member of an organization who was
in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got stuck with a non-paying
position it'll be my pleasure to inflict on someone else in a year or two.
;)
I'd hoped for more time to introduce myself to you, but because of an ISP
doubling Chicago Mensa's rate for co-location for the month of January
(please, don't ask) we've had to rush things this weekend. Chicago's
web-server is a shell of its former self at the moment living on American
Mensa's soon-to-be abandoned server, and tomorrow, I'll be physically
migrating the NEC Pentium 166 tower that's still the home of Chicago's
mailserver, mailing lists, and the mensa.* newsgroups to a place where it
can hopefully limp along for the next few weeks.
Mary jumped the gun when she told you this group was going away Sunday.
Anything is possible, but outside of the known outage tomorrow, unless the
hard drive fails, or I drop the machine because I slipped and fell on ice,
things will go on for a couple more weeks, at least.
So sit back, relax, and try to ask your questions in an orderly fashion.
I'll try to do my best to answer whatever I can, in between real life, and
keeping other things together.
In the next message I post, I'm going to quote and reply to several messages
in each thread that's pertinent to the server and newsgroup migration. A
lot of times, I might say "I don't know yet", largely because this is a big
undertaking, with a lot of cogs involved. Although my function is primarily
technical, I do have other opinions, as well as a position on Mensa's
Internet Policy Committee. Since this committee has not actually met, I
must warn you that anything I say, therefore, is my own opinion, and not
necessarily that of that seven-member group.
Now that's out of the way, a few comments to nobody in particular.
Mensa is a worldwide organization. Its National and local groups support
many worthy charities, scholarship funds, and other charitable programs.
Mensa's not in it for the money, at least not from what I've seen.
Approximately 50-60 of Mensa's 100,000 members posted in mensa.talk.misc
over the past few months. By my reckoning, that's .06% worldwide member
participation. We get that many people at a Chicago ethnic dining event
almost every month, have the same or better conversations, learn about
counties customs and food, and come away with full bellies, and a check that
occasionally rivals internet expenses for Mensa for a month.
I am a big... BIG fan of electronic communications. But mensa.talk.misc is
not Mensa, and you're cheating yourself out of some wonderful experiences if
you are a member and don't show up, or worse, choose not to be a member at
all. I know, I know... before you say it, I'm well aware that not everyone
can qualify for Mensa. That feeling kept me from joining for many years.
But you know what? I went to a party, had a great time, and I joined,
largely because of the sense of community I felt there. In some small way,
I believe many of you have felt an inkling of that sense of community
through your assoication with mensa.talk.misc.
I've seen some of the messages that have been rejected, and I just look at
them and say... yep, that's classic Usenet. You know why some people behave
so much more poorly on the Internet than they do face-to-face? Because
face-to-face, the person you're calling names just might pop you one in the
nose. It is completely possible to attack someone else's ideas without
attacking the person, but on Usenet, it's rarely considered chic to be
polite. You all owe the moderators a round of applause for the efforts they
put into making mensa.talk.misc what it's been, what it is, and what it will
be.
On the new server, newsgroup access to discussions like mensa.talk.misc will
be a privilege of membership. That means members can still use newsreaders
or mailing lists (or both!) to access the same fora. Note as well that
"privilege" means that being a member and having access to newsgroup posting
is not carte-blanche to forget the requirements of human decency. This is
special because it IS a community. That will not change.
Some of you will give it a try, and I appreciate that. Some may not. It
never ceases to amaze me how closed-minded "intelligent" people can often
be. Try what we're doing, before you take yourselves, part of the
mensa.talk.misc community somewhere else. It just might get better.
Please understand as well that our goal is to get more of those 100,000
members involved. Technically, they're the ones I'm supposed to service.
Fair is fair.
Go easy on me. It's been a tough couple of weeks. :)
Steve
Vince
I'm betting we're about to see a version of the "white list" resurrected!
> Steven L.
--
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Vince
> In article <av52lg$s...@chicago.us.mensa.org>, "Steven"
> <.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> writes:
>
>>This should make a lot of Mensans happy, especially moderators.
>
> Why? Personally, speaking as one of the people who's currently
> moderating, I'm not especially happy. Of course, this is mostly because
> my system is being very recalcitrant about the new software I'll need.
>
> Anyone know if there's a place where Outlook Express can be downloaded
> by itself, without the 2.5 hours it will take me to pick up a newer
> version of Internet Explorer?
>
ObAntiMS: "Get a real mail client!!!"
Seriously, if you want OE, you should probably get the latest and greatest
that MS bundles with IE now. Bugs/security patches/etc. Since MS has
stopped it as a stand-alone download, there are no legit online sources (I
am offically agnostic about the catagory of online sources in general
<g>).
Other Options: A windows 9* install CD
An Office97 CD (IIRC)
Any of a zillion different ISP provider CDs from a few years back. (I
actually used an AOL disk to install the versions of OE and IE that I used
a few years back)
Also, you may want to try the computer section of a local public library,
or a used software/computer store.
Good luck.
> - - - Adina
>
> "The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one great thing."
> -- Archilochus (fragment 103)
> http://members.aol.com/adinas/index.html
Steve Levinthal
particular order. I apologize for hijacking them, but it's a lot easier to
respond to questions and comments in one place, and it reads more like a FAQ
this way.
Steve
On 1/5/03 8:48 PM, in article avabns$9...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "Jerry
Hollombe" <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
> I'm going to hope the directions appear here the just before list is
> finally shut down. I don't subscribe to the Mensa newslists because
> they e-mail passwords in plaintext.
True, the initial list password is sent to you via e-mail, in plain text.
BUT... our web interface for the mailing lists is SSL encrypted. Once you
have your initial password, you can go back into the web page, and change
it. Unless you request to e-mail it to yourself, your password will never
be transmitted in open text. Neat, huh? :)
-----
On 1/6/03 12:12 AM, in article 20030105200909...@mb-cl.aol.com,
"Steven L." <sierrat...@aol.comnojunk> wrote:
> It would have helped if this group was not burried behind several web pages
> and in a members only area. And if there was a clickable link to this ng.
> ROM is relatively easy to find, and if you ask a question about Mensa there,
> The answer may be unkind, to say the least. Leading one to a negative
> reaction to Mensa.
Discussion groups will be featured more prominently on the webpage in the
future, and I'd like to officially appoint you sir, with the fine name of
Steven, as the one to keep me honest about that. Nag me, and I'll nag the
webmaster.
> If the ng was a flop, it was designed to be one, on purpose or not.
The fact is, the influx of new-blood into newsgroup participation lags far
behind web-boards and mailing lists. Took me a long time before I was
comfortable on a web-board. I cut my teeth on Usenet, and sharpened them of
Fidonet.
> While I am able to communicate here, what is https, and why that and not the
> more common http?
The "s" means you're on a secure server. Because individual passwords are
involved for your settings, we've chosen to encrypt your communication with
the server. See Jerry's concerns above for one of the reasons why we've
done this.
If you're not running a reasonably current version of a web browser, you
might have issues with our site's certificate. I don't know what kind of
computer and operating system you're using, but you might want to get the
most current version of your browser, and try again. Don't be afraid to
accept the certificate. It's valid for the site.
-----
On 1/5/03 6:06 PM, in article athh1vstme7hri4a3...@4ax.com,
"dave" <grum...@onebox.com> wrote:
> I'm just a little disappointed that this group is being shut down
> before the instructions are up on the web to subscribe through a
> reader.
We're waiting, although should something drastic happen, there IS a mailing
list which can be used for sending out instructions. The password
authentication system is in place, it's the member validation system that's
taking a bit longer. If we don't have member authentication ready by the
time we're ready to give up the ghost on the Chicago server as the newsgate,
we'll probably give out a general authentication password for a time. We'll
have to see who and what happens.
-----
On 1/5/03 3:14 PM, in article ava6pb$5...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "Steven"
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
> Would it be such a bad thing for Mensa membership if
> most of the posters to mensa.* were Mensans.
>
> Potential Mensa members may have been put off after
> viewing MTM and thinking most of the posts here were
> by Mensans.
Gosh, another great thought from a great name. ;) Actually, it's not so
much the reputation of mensa.talk.misc, but Usenet that has kept some people
away. Not being a big corporate entity, or even a stooge, I had to settle
for talking to the larger audience, namely the people from Mensa who AREN'T
participating here.
-----
On 1/5/03 12:10 PM, in article 3e186eb9....@chicago.us.mensa.org,
"Henry Chang" <lhchang.t...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> I am wondering what the goals of Mensa are with regards to it membership.
> Does it want to expand or be insular?
Henry, several of the other moderators addressed this, but I'll throw my few
cents in as well. Obviously, Mensa wants to expand, but let's not kid
ourselves into thinking that Usenet's going to do that for Mensa. If it
hasn't done so in the last seven years, it certainly won't now.
-----
On 1/5/03 4:01 AM, in article n51f1v8v6ogl2673m...@4ax.com,
"Mary" <dev...@us.mensa.org> wrote:
> Mailman has an web archive feature and I assume that it will be turned
> on.
Well, I can't say how excited it'll be, but we will be using it. Currently,
we'll have archive capability where you can sort by thread, subject, author,
and date. Searching is something we can add on if it's called for. To see
a site with mailman search implemented, check out some of the mailing list
archives at: http://archive.midrange.com/.
-----
On 1/5/03 4:01 AM, in article av7vv7$a...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "Steven"
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> wrote:
> Perhaps the new newsgroup posts will be mirrored here.
I've bouncing around the idea of setting up a "best of" mirroring, but
that's in direct conflict with the environment which members I spoke with
said they'd prefer to use. Bottom line, you can't be all things to all
people.
-----
On 1/5/03 11:38 AM, in article av91fp$8...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "rian"
<ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> Why would somebody in Belgium look up on the american site if there
> is a newsgroup? They would go to usenet and find... ROM!!!!
In the past few years, I've become much more sensitive to the reputation
American has in the rest of the world, and it's sadly somewhat deserved. A
bit of a bully, self-centered, self-righteous, xenophobic, and of course the
only country EVER to use a nuclear weapon in battle, but they say they're
all about peace.
It was an education when I learned to see the US can be perceived through
foreign eyes. But... Mensa is an INTERNATIONAL organization. The server IS
in the US, which the last time I checked, is still part of the world. I am
looking to complete my team with people from across the globe, in part
because it's the "touchy-feely" thing to do, and in part because it makes
sense to have access to someone as awake and available at the same time as
people in their part of the planet.
Again, it's on US soil, at a US ISP, but it's paid for and operated by Mensa
International, which spans the planet, much like the internet.
Vince
> Hi everyone. I'm the head of the new server admin team for Mensa
> International. Contrary to some of what I've seen recently, I'm not the
> "corporate entity". I'm just a guy who's a member of an organization who
> was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got stuck with a
> non-paying position it'll be my pleasure to inflict on someone else in a
> year or two. ;)
>
<snip much of value>
>
> On the new server, newsgroup access to discussions like mensa.talk.misc
> will be a privilege of membership. That means members can still use
> newsreaders or mailing lists (or both!) to access the same fora. Note
> as well that "privilege" means that being a member and having access to
> newsgroup posting is not carte-blanche to forget the requirements of
> human decency. This is special because it IS a community. That will
> not change.
>
> Some of you will give it a try, and I appreciate that. Some may not. It
> never ceases to amaze me how closed-minded "intelligent" people can
> often be. Try what we're doing, before you take yourselves, part of the
> mensa.talk.misc community somewhere else. It just might get better.
>
Steve, when will we know the server name to connect to? How will members
authenticate to connect to it?
Thanks,
-Vince
<snip>
> Go easy on me. It's been a tough couple of weeks. :)
>
That could happen...<g>
> Steve
Adina Sobo
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> writes:
>"Adina Sobo" <adi...@aol.com> wrote in message
[....]
>> because my system is being very recalcitrant about the new
>> software I'll need.
>
>Is your system being recalcitrant related to AOL?
>I've heard AOL makes using the internet
>challenging once you get past the basics.
Who knows? I don't normally have any problems at all with AOL,
and I very much like the offline newsreader and mail software,
which have all the utilities I actually need (I have, in the past, used
enough other types of software, such as Eudora Pro and the like
that I do know the difference!) The error message I'm getting at
the moment, with Free Agent, is unhappy about winsock.
>> Anyone know if there's a place where Outlook Express can be
>> downloaded by itself, without the 2.5 hours it will take me to
>> pick up a newer version of Internet Explorer?
>>
>Because of security issues with Internet Explorer and
>Outlook Express using the latest version and all the
>patches may be worth it in the long run.
>The latest version of Outlook Express is much safer as it
>gives you the option to read all messages in plain text.
Thanks; per the above I'm going to try to see if I can get the
moderation thing to work with Free Agent (I'm getting help from
the other moderators on this) or one of the other suggestions
they made before I go back to try again to get Outlook.
M. A. Pickering
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030104113616...@mb-ct.aol.com...
> Dear Belf,
> I am not going to clutter my e-mail with another list. I currently get
three
> lists.
Likewise. A mailing list with more than 10 regulars is chaotic and
unmanageable.
I won't be signing up. Seeya folks, it's been a charm.
Mark P.
Feek O'Hanrahan
It's been a quark? 8^P
Steve Levinthal
<vincest...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Steve, when will we know the server name to connect to?
Probably right after I enter it into the DNS. It'll probably be something
creative like newsserver.mensa.org.
> How will members authenticate to connect to it?
With an individually assigned username and a user changeable password.
We're hoping to have SSL encryption up for the login sequence as well.
Everything else is already installed and working on the test site, including
the web interface for changing passwords.
Your news reader, therefore, will need to support username/password logon,
and SSL.
As to the guess you made earlier about white listing? That's up to the
moderators, but for someone who enjoys using a news reader, I think of what
the Will Rogers character said (sang actually) in the musical story of his
life:
"Give a man enough rope, and he will hang himself, or not. That is the
choice that he has got".
Hope that helps.
Steve
rian
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Belf da Dog" <d...@sniff.org> schreef in bericht
news:sd8S9.113737$Zv4.7...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Adina Sobo
<.s.t.e.v.e.n.@.a.u.m.e.n.s.a.o.r.g> writes:
>I am a member of Mensa and my last post took over 9 hours to appear!
>(My newsreader uses chicago.us.mensa.org)
That part isn't especially relevant, although it can take a bit longer
if you're on a newserver that's got problems with propagation instead
of the host. The biggest factor in lag is the way the moderation
system works. Each post is sent from the server to a moderator,
and the moderator has to read it and respond. The system doesn't
care which moderator gets it -- it could be sent just as a moderator
is going to work, going to sleep, going out for the evening, etc. I
know I check my e-mail 2 or more times a day... but not constantly!
then, while most posts are approved, some have to be referred to
the moderating team for a decision; that can delay things another
day or more.
>Non-members of Mensa who are whitelisted have their posts appear
>immediately.
Well, in theory they would, if there was a whitelist. There's been a bit
of wierdness going on with the server, and the newer version may have
a whitelist, but there hasn't been one *here* for a loooong time.
rian
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Vince" <vincest...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:DJ9S9.579129$WL3.171013@rwcrnsc54...
Adina Sobo
<grum...@onebox.com> writes:
>You should be able to download it independent of the other components,
>providing they haven't changed the updating program since last I used
>it.
Thanks, but I never could find a place where I could do that. So, I
went for Free Agent -- I know a lot of people who are happily using
Agent for news.
rian
generates 300 messages a day, but most threads are chats: It is snowing
here. It is already 2 inches deep here. my dog loved the white stuff.
Here we only saw some flocks. etc. We had an long an in depth discussion
about norms and values, the election ticket here. Interesting.
(The original one chamged its charter (anybody posting the same on both
lists will be banned, so that one is empty now.)) But not all membeers
post and it is nice to hear from members currently residing abroad. We
know a lot more about Switserland now.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
news:avbkcq$d...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
gistak
"Belf da Dog" <d...@sniff.org> wrote in message
news:sd8S9.113737$Zv4.7...@news2.telusplanet.net...
Ok.
P
A list can be white, black, pink, etc., without affecting the color of the
people or dogs ON the list.
gistak
news:20030105200909...@mb-cl.aol.com...
The "s" stands for "secure." And it's pretty common. Lots of places you
visit might already have it, but you never noticed.
P
Steve Levinthal
O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> wrote:
> M. A. Pickering wrote:
>> "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote in message
>> news:20030104113616...@mb-ct.aol.com...
>>> Dear Belf,
>>> I am not going to clutter my e-mail with another list. I currently
>>> get three lists.
>>
>> Likewise. A mailing list with more than 10 regulars is chaotic and
>> unmanageable.
>>
>> I won't be signing up. Seeya folks, it's been a charm.
>
> It's been a quark? 8^P
>
Are you always this particular? :::deadpan:::
Steve
Bill Vajk
PSmith9626 wrote:
Mary wrote:
>>Well, you could join Mensa and then use a news reader. : - )
> Yes, I suspect that is the reason why Mensa has done this. It is just like lots
> of other web things that are going commercial and charging a fee.
> But, ( not to sound harsh), this newsgroup is simply not at a high enough
> intellectual level to justify my paying dues.
The best things in life are free.
Steve Levinthal
Yucikas" <tyuc...@cts.com> wrote:
> Hi Steve,
>
> I've been reading what others say about the "new, improved"
> forum and have heard that non-Mensans may "participate"
> with limitations.
>
> Question: will non-mensans be able to "write" (ie post words
> which others can then "read") ... understanding that methods
> will differ
>
> thank you,
> tracy
I've moved your question to this thread, Tracy, thanks for asking.
Non members will be able to participate in the same discussion, through a
mailing list. The hardware that currently runs newsgroups for Mensa is
literally on its last legs, so I'd suggest signing up for the list now.
Visit https://mailman.mensa.org/listinfo/mensa-talk-misc and follow the
easy-to-read instructions.
Everyone participating, member of not, will need to sign up for the list.
Going beyond your question, members who plan to only use a newsreader will
want to select the "nomail" option, so they don't actually receive list
mail. Having the e-mail address on the mailing allows gives us the option
of releasing messages from moderation faster.
I hope this helps. :)
Steve
Bill Vajk
> Yes, I suspect that is the reason why Mensa has done this. It is just like lots
> of other web things that are going commercial and charging a fee.
Penny,
If you think back to about the time the newsgroups were put on the
Chicago server you might recall that Mary spoke of a members only
newsgroup to be the future format that long ago. I personally had
always thought that the issue is one of continuously increasing
control.
Using that as a jumping off point, one might make a case that the
reemergence of a white list struck the fatal blow for the public
usenet forum format. (It has been obvious for some time, based on
the timestamps of the articles of certain individuals, that a
white list had been reinstated.)
IMO this newsgroup was at its best when it had a huge white list. It
has been obvious to me that more controls resulted in a generally
less interesting and less meaningful forum.
Nothing about this speculation is important, being merely an amusing
commentary about the demise of the newsgroup. It has, more or less,
been a prolonged death.
gistak
news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
So is the new MTM group.
P
Bill Vajk
> On 9 Jan 2003 01:12:53 -0600, Bill Vajk
> <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote:
>>The best things in life are free.
> Would that that was always true! : - )
I think it is. After all, if something was free one cannot
legitimately be disappointed, right?
JWMeritt
>>
>>Mary wrote:
>>
>>>>Well, you could join Mensa and then use a news reader. : - )
>>
>>> Yes, I suspect that is the reason why Mensa has done this. It is just like
>lots
>>> of other web things that are going commercial and charging a fee.
>>> But, ( not to sound harsh), this newsgroup is simply not at a high
>enough
>>> intellectual level to justify my paying dues.
>>
>
>Would that that was always true! : - )
Or even "ever"! I've found "you get what you pay for" more often.
James W. Meritt, CISSP, CISA
Bill Vajk
> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>
>>The best things in life are free.
> So is the new MTM group.
More for some than others?
Joseph Weinstein
Bill Vajk wrote:
Nice entry into a philosophical question!
There are two issues to the original statement:
1 - Who determines what the best things are? If it is the individual
involved, and (s)he decides that the best things in life are all on
display at Tiffany's, then the statement is false.
2 - How shall we determine cost? An object may be free of monetary
cost to obtain, but if the user determines that it's use entails costs,
even so far as to say that opportunity costs and dashed expectations
are a cost, then one could claim to be disappointed at the waste,
even in the use of a free object. For instance, water from a public
drinking fountain is free, but an illegal, non-tax-paying person could
still be disappointed if they were poisoned by getting contaminated
water from it...
Jerry Hollombe
> ... (It has been obvious for some time, based on
> the timestamps of the articles of certain individuals, that a
> white list had been reinstated.)
It's not obvious to me. I used to be on the white list and I'm
definitely not on it now. Since I never did anything to be kicked off
it that I'm aware of, I would think I'd be on it if it had been reinstated.
Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
http://thegarret.info/
http://glaam.us.mensa.org/
Jerry Hollombe
> ... I'm just a guy who's a member of an organization who was
> in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got stuck with a non-paying
> position it'll be my pleasure to inflict on someone else in a year or two.
> ;)
Good luck. I've been trying to give away the GLAAM Webmaster position
for two years with no takers.
Jerry Hollolmbe, Webmaster
http://thegarret.info/
http://glaam.us.mensa.org/
gistak
"Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3E1DDC12...@hotmail.com...
No. Free is free.
P
zookumar
Actually, there are degrees of freedom. Your freedom in the
new arrangement, say, is greater than my freedom. You have more
choices than I do. Ergo, free dissociates to more free and less free.
The MTM of a week ago, too, had degrees of freedom. However, those
degrees did not discriminate on the basis of membership (Mensan vs
nonMensan), but on the basis of moderation (moderator vs
nonmoderator).
Indeed, this is merely an isomorphism of our oft-debated "free
speech" argument. And you come up a nickel short yet again. *Smileys*
wrapped in bubbled plastic (on the curb by the moving van). Help
yourself.
-zookumar-
Vince
> Bill Vajk wrote:
>
>> ... (It has been obvious for some time, based on the timestamps of the
>> articles of certain individuals, that a white list had been
>> reinstated.)
>
> It's not obvious to me. I used to be on the white list and I'm
> definitely not on it now. Since I never did anything to be kicked off
> it that I'm aware of, I would think I'd be on it if it had been
> reinstated.
>
Had it been done on purpose, that would be a reasonable assumption.
> Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
> http://thegarret.info/
> http://glaam.us.mensa.org/
Jerry Hollombe
> On 10 Jan 2003 04:01:56 -0600, Jerry Hollombe <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>Steve Levinthal wrote:
>>
>>>... I'm just a guy who's a member of an organization who was
>>>in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got stuck with a non-paying
>>>position it'll be my pleasure to inflict on someone else in a year or two.
>>>;)
>>
>>Good luck. I've been trying to give away the GLAAM Webmaster position
>>for two years with no takers.
> It looks like your group has been having trouble finding volunteers --
> webmaster and scholarships.
>
> In such a large group, one would think that the pool of volunteers is
> larger. : _ )
In fact, someone has just come forward. I'm supposed to meet with them
today to see if I, they and the LocSec agree they're a good fit for the
job. One lives and hopes.
Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
http://thegarret.info/
http://glaam.us.mensa.org/
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> gistak wrote:
>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:3E1DDC12...@hotmail.com...
>>> gistak wrote:
>>>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> The best things in life are free.
>>>> So is the new MTM group.
>>> More for some than others?
>> No. Free is free.
>
> Actually, there are degrees of freedom. Your freedom in the
> new arrangement, say, is greater than my freedom.
Wait a minute. Let's get something straight.
Penny talked about having to PAY for Mensa. Money. She mentioned an email
list that she's on that is free. That means that she doesn't have to pay any
money to participate in that email list.
Someone else said that the best things in life are free (the expression,
"the best things in life are free" GENERALLY refers to not having to pay
money for things. It doesn't GENERALLY refer to FREEDOM of speech, action,
press, or anything else).
I said that to use the Mensa group is free as well. Penny's free email list
is exactly the same degree of free (i.e., no charge) as the Mensa email
list.
I certainly agree that Mensa members have the choice to use the news server
OR the email list. I never said anything different. But no matter what they
use, they pay no less money than anyone else who wants to participate.
<snip>
> Indeed, this is merely an isomorphism of our oft-debated "free
> speech" argument.
Indeed it is, because once again, you confuse terms. It's true that the word
"free" means different things, but I'm afraid you got mixed up in the
context.
> And you come up a nickel short yet again.
Z, you have this thing about not reading a conversation that I'm in, then
misunderstanding it while you tell me that I'm wrong. Soon it won't be a
problem, I guess.
P
Henry Yen
Mary <dev...@us.mensa.org> wrote:
>On 10 Jan 2003 04:01:56 -0600, Jerry Hollombe <poly...@pacbell.net>
>wrote:
>>> ... I'm just a guy who's a member of an organization who was
>>> in the wrong place at the wrong time, and got stuck with a non-paying
>>> position it'll be my pleasure to inflict on someone else in a year or two.
>>> ;)
>>
>>Good luck. I've been trying to give away the GLAAM Webmaster position
>>for two years with no takers.
>
>webmaster and scholarships.
>
>In such a large group, one would think that the pool of volunteers is
>larger. : _ )
any possible correlation is a bit murkier. our local group is also
presently challenged in that respect, too. perhaps it's feast or
famine?
[OT: someone's .sig recently quoted "Cole's Axiom". i instantly thought
of "Cole's Law" ("thinly sliced cabbage in a mayonnaise sauce").]
Henry Yen
Director, Greater New York Mensa
--
Henry Yen <he...@panix.com>
netcom shell refugee '94. he...@netcom.com,henr...@netcom.com
Hicksville, New York
zookumar
>On 10 Jan 2003 15:52:01 -0600, zookumar <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>gistak wrote:
>>>"Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:3E1DDC12...@hotmail.com...
>>>> gistak wrote:
>>>> > "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> > news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>>> >>
>>>> >>The best things in life are free.
>>>> > So is the new MTM group.
>>>> More for some than others?
>>>No. Free is free.
>> Actually, there are degrees of freedom. Your freedom in the
>>new arrangement, say, is greater than my freedom. You have more
>>choices than I do. Ergo, free dissociates to more free and less free.
>>The MTM of a week ago, too, had degrees of freedom. However, those
>>degrees did not discriminate on the basis of membership (Mensan vs
>>nonMensan), but on the basis of moderation (moderator vs
>>nonmoderator).
>that doesn't mean that the choice isn't being made available. Every
The choice is extremely taxing for some; not so taxing for
others; none at all for others still. With a newsreader, I can do
file management functions a lot more swiftly and with ease (especially
with the software I have installed) than with currently installed
email software. Also, my free hotmail account has a 2 meg limit. I
receive enough spam now to get me on the verge of venting. I don't
know how big a single's day archive of postings can get, but I don't
relish the prospect of having to treat such mail as if it were spam.
With a newsreader (I use Noworyta) I just let the daily posts
accumulate until they expire on their own (on the home server). Don't
even have to think twice about it. Suffice to say, emailreading and
newsreading have different usage facilities. That only some MTMers
(Mensans) are being offered a choice between the two types of readers
whereas other MTMers (nonMensans) are being offered the single choice
of the emailreader ... well, that's a free clue right there that
differential freedoms (eg. degrees of freedom) are at play.
To be sure, you pay your dues and you can do whatever you like
with the monies. But please, don't redefine the slave's freedom to
mean the master's freedom (poetic license withstanding).
>Mensan will be able to post with authentication. After all, the new
>server is a Mensa server and the server purpose is to advertise
>through the web site and to serve its members.
Yup. Mensans get privileged service. Fair enough. No
quarrel with that. My quarrel is with the attribution of a universal
freedom to the biverse of participants.
>The service is free, and as gistak said, free is free.
The service may be free. But free is not free. Free is free
*only* if there's a universe of participants. Clearly, that is not
the case.
-zookumar-
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Mary wrote:
>> On 10 Jan 2003 15:52:01 -0600, zookumar <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> gistak wrote:
>>>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:3E1DDC12...@hotmail.com...
>>>>> gistak wrote:
>>>>>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The best things in life are free.
>>>>>> So is the new MTM group.
>>>>> More for some than others?
>>>> No. Free is free.
>>> Actually, there are degrees of freedom. Your freedom in the
>>> new arrangement, say, is greater than my freedom. You have more
>>> choices than I do. Ergo, free dissociates to more free and less free.
>>> The MTM of a week ago, too, had degrees of freedom. However, those
>>> degrees did not discriminate on the basis of membership (Mensan vs
>>> nonMensan), but on the basis of moderation (moderator vs
>>> nonmoderator).
>> Everyone who can post can also do e-mail list. If you don't want to,
>> that doesn't mean that the choice isn't being made available. Every
>
<snip>
>
> Yup. Mensans get privileged service. Fair enough. No
> quarrel with that. My quarrel is with the attribution of a universal
> freedom to the biverse of participants.
>
Who made that attribution, exactly? Who said that every participant will
have the same choices?
I said that the Mensa group is one of those things that fits the expression,
"the best things in life are free." For you to contort that into saying that
I attributed "universal freedom to the biverse of participants" is just a
case of itching for a fight.
P
Gistak
<gis...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/10/03 4:52 PM, in article swFT9.238914$C8.7...@nnrp1.uunet.ca,
> "zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> gistak wrote:
>>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:3E1DDC12...@hotmail.com...
>>>> gistak wrote:
>>>>> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:3E1CE9AD...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The best things in life are free.
>>>>> So is the new MTM group.
>>>> More for some than others?
>>> No. Free is free.
>>
>> Actually, there are degrees of freedom. Your freedom in the
>> new arrangement, say, is greater than my freedom.
>
> Wait a minute. Let's get something straight.
>
> Penny talked about having to PAY for Mensa. Money. She mentioned an email
> list that she's on that is free. That means that she doesn't have to pay any
> money to participate in that email list.
Oh, by the way, the group Penny was talking about is INVITATION ONLY. Oh my
goodness. That means it's even LESS free than the Mensa list! You'd better
write to Penny immediately and tell her that her list isn't free at all! She
was dead wrong to say it was!
P
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Your WHAT? Your FREE Hotmail account? But it's not really free for the
people who don't have access to computers! And people who do aren't really
FREE to use however they want. There are rules for use, invented by the
inudstrial complex.
I resent your attribution of universal freedom of action, when it's actually
very limited.
Or, wait. Did you just mean that it doesn't cost any money? Like I meant
when I said that it's free to use the Mensa list?
P
PSmith9626
Right. I said that I don't want to pay dues to Mensa for an uncluttered
mailbox.
I already belong to three e-mail lists.
best
penny
I don't need Mensa for my non-electronic social life. I have plenty of that.
>Message-id: <BA464B7C.1C4F%gis...@hotmail.com>
>I said that to use the Mensa group is free as well. Penny's free email list
>is exactly the same degree of free (i.e., no charge) as the Mensa email
>list.
Right. But on a far higher intellectual level than MTM. So I won't drop them
for MTM.
I have friends here--just e-mail me. Sometimes, I will post on ROM.
Gistak
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote:
Whatever you decide is best for you, of course. Zukoomar somehow confused
the conversation as being about freedom of action or something, rather than
being about not costing any money.
P
zookumar
You did. With your "free is free" meaningless truism. Free
is free, true, but only in a very generalized context, namely, where
"every participant will have the same choices". Since you made the
statement, you are bound to its logical consequences, wot?
>I said that the Mensa group is one of those things that fits the expression,
>"the best things in life are free." For you to contort that into saying that
>I attributed "universal freedom to the biverse of participants" is just a
>case of itching for a fight.
No. You implied that the *new MTM group* is free for
everyone. Clearly it costs more (in time and convenience currency)
for nonMensans to participate in the new MTM group than for Mensans.
Ergo, free is not free for everyone. But even at the individual
level, clearly, nonMensan MTMers are being taxed by the move, which
means they have less freedom today than they had a week ago. If free
is free, as you claim, their freedom would not have been altered,
certainly it wouldn't have been singularly altered while the freedom
of Mensan MTMers remained basically unaltered.
The only one contorting things here is you, Gistak, for you
will have us believe that your "free is free" statement is _not_ a
direct rejection of the preceding quasi-inquisitive statement "More
for some than others?", when in fact it is. All I did was further
establish the inquisitive statement with factual details.
-zookumar-
Vince
> Your WHAT? Your FREE Hotmail account? But it's not really free for the
> people who don't have access to computers! And people who do aren't
> really FREE to use however they want. There are rules for use, invented
> by the inudstrial complex.
>
> I resent your attribution of universal freedom of action, when it's
> actually very limited.
>
> Or, wait. Did you just mean that it doesn't cost any money? Like I meant
> when I said that it's free to use the Mensa list?
>
> P
MTM Newsserver access: Free ($)
MTM Email access: Free ($)
Hotmail account access: Free ($)
Z hoist on own petard: Priceless ($)
Apologies to MasterCard (tm)
Thank You Gistak, that made my week!
zookumar
Not true. You evidently misunderstand. "Cost" need not be
just about money. Cost includes resources such as one's time and
energy. My contention is that the Mensa executive is jacking up the
cost of nonMensan resources (time and energy) in order to "greymail"
them into becoming Mensans, ie. to absorb the monetary cost of
membership. In essence, my argument spans all major meanings of
"free" and "cost", but not arbitrarily so, as you imply.
Clearly, when a previous poster (Bill Vajk) wrote "More for
some than others?" he was referencing a nonmonetary definition of the
word "free". Indeed, he was alluding to the inconvenience presented
to nonMensans by the changeover. It is Gastik who confuses himself
and tries to confuse others by replying as he did with "No. Free is
free."
-zookumar-
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Thank you. That's what I said. Everything else was your own interpretation.
And incorrect interpretation at that.
You can only be blamed a little for interpreting me incorrectly without
asking what I meant. I mean, that happens a lot, so I'm used to it.
But now that I have EXPLAINED that I was talking about money, it's really
incredible that instead of saying, "oh, well all right then," you'd rather
keep on and on and say, "but you COULDN'T have just meant money!"
> but only in a very generalized context, namely, where
> "every participant will have the same choices". Since you made the
> statement, you are bound to its logical consequences, wot?
>
Yes, I made the statement that free is free. Can you dispute it? I have
since clarified (though I'm amazed that I have to) that I was talking purely
about money. Can you dispute that I'm right, purely about money?
You can't, so you tell me that I must be lying. Which is strange, since I
have also said that I never denied that Mensa members have more choices in
this case than non-Mensa members. In fact, I've pointed it out.
>> I said that the Mensa group is one of those things that fits the expression,
>> "the best things in life are free." For you to contort that into saying that
>> I attributed "universal freedom to the biverse of participants" is just a
>> case of itching for a fight.
>
> No. You implied that the *new MTM group* is free for
> everyone.
No. I said outright that it's free for everyone. YOU seemed to think that I
meant something other than money, which I have since explained is an
incorrect reading of what I wrote.
YOU read me wrong. YOU thought that I meant something that I didn't. Again.
> Clearly it costs more (in time and convenience currency)
> for nonMensans to participate in the new MTM group than for Mensans.
Sure. As I said in the last post, I have never said nor implied differently.
In fact, I have been clear that this difference is real and important.
<snip>
>
> The only one contorting things here is you, Gistak, for you
> will have us believe that your "free is free" statement is _not_ a
> direct rejection of the preceding quasi-inquisitive statement "More
> for some than others?", when in fact it is.
This may be your best sentence yet. YOU inferred what Bill meant. This is a
common theme. Someone writes something and I respond. Then you tell me that
I'm all wrong because the person ACTUALLY meant X instead of Y. But the
person in question never joins in again to confirm your interpretation.
In this case, it doesn't matter what anyone else meant. In this case, the
conflict is what *I* meant. I have already told you. I was talking about
money. I've said so several times.
Don't believe me? That's not a surprise or a problem.
P
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gistak wrote:
>> On 1/11/03 11:25 PM, in article 20030111232205...@mb-mr.aol.com,
>> "PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> Dear P,
>>> Right. I said that I don't want to pay dues to Mensa for an uncluttered
>>> mailbox.
>>> I already belong to three e-mail lists.
>>> best
>>> penny
>>> I don't need Mensa for my non-electronic social life. I have plenty of that.
>>>> Message-id: <BA464B7C.1C4F%gis...@hotmail.com>
>>>> I said that to use the Mensa group is free as well. Penny's free email list
>>>> is exactly the same degree of free (i.e., no charge) as the Mensa email
>>>> list.
>>> Right. But on a far higher intellectual level than MTM. So I won't drop them
>>> for MTM.
>>> I have friends here--just e-mail me. Sometimes, I will post on ROM.
>> Whatever you decide is best for you, of course. Zukoomar somehow confused
>> the conversation as being about freedom of action or something, rather than
>> being about not costing any money.
>
> Not true. You evidently misunderstand. "Cost" need not be
> just about money. Cost includes resources such as one's time and
> energy.
Yes, of course. Penny was talking about money. She said so. I was also. I
said so. You are not.
Therefore, I said that you were confused about what the conversation was
about, since we were talking about money, and you were talking about other
things.
> My contention is that the Mensa executive is jacking up the
> cost of nonMensan resources (time and energy) in order to "greymail"
> them into becoming Mensans, ie. to absorb the monetary cost of
> membership. In essence, my argument spans all major meanings of
> "free" and "cost", but not arbitrarily so, as you imply.
>
Once again, I didn't imply anything of the sort.
I said that Penny and I were talking about money, and you were not. Oh, and
that you seemed to think that *I* was talking about something other than
money. That's all. Stop telling me what I meant.
Now, if you want to talk about WHY Mensa is making this move, we can. I
don't think that you're right, of course, but you haven't asked me what I
thought. If you're curious, then ask. But don't tell me what you think I've
already implied.
P
zookumar
>sign up for. Yahoo has them as well. (Just a thought).
True. But that doesn't alter the rest of my argument, namely,
it's meaningless for Gistak or anyone else to say "free is free" when
the set of participants in the new arrangement is biversal. There
_is_ more freedom for Mensans in the new order than for nonMensans.
Lest Gistak get into word games about "free", I offer the coinage in
both senses of the word, eg. sense of cost (whether in time or money)
and sense of access. Basically, the executives at Mensa have decided
to make participation in the new order a premium. In essence: you
pay, you stay; you don't, well, we'll make it a bit more difficult for
you to stay.
Of course, all this has been done with little consideration
for those who had helped make MTM a thriving community for intelligent
persons, indeed, enhanced the organization's name where ROM had for
years diminished it. And that includes many nonMensans. So be it.
Of course, correctly or incorrectly, ROM will once again singularly
reflect on Mensans in general usenet circles, so I have to wonder how
smart the whole move is.
Thanx for your thought, tho', Mary.
-zookumar-
rian
amswer. Still have last years new years cards laying around, bought new
ones this year, haven't sent them yet. A list is so much easier. You
keep up with everybody and can reply when you feel like it. I am a
member of 21 yahoo groups and 3 listserv groups. (I do not reas them all
the time, just delete when I cannot catch up or go on webmail)
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20030111232205...@mb-mr.aol.com...
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I have told you several times that I wasn't playing any games at all when
you misread me. I was talking about the fact that the email list for MTM
does not cost any more money than the email list that Penny mentioned was
free. Money. No matter how many times you tell me that I meant something
else, you will be wrong.
The email list is free. I am not playing games. Since the word can be
interpreted other ways, I have tried to make it as clear as possible what I
meant. MONEY. IT DOESN'T COST ANY MONEY.
You just keep saying that I meant something other than that, which, hey,
you're allowed to do. I'm sure that in the morning I'll wonder why I kept
explaining it to you.
> Basically, the executives at Mensa have decided
> to make participation in the new order a premium. In essence: you
> pay, you stay; you don't, well, we'll make it a bit more difficult for
> you to stay.
>
Finally, an actual discussion. It is true that this is a result of what's
happening, but I doubt that it's the reason for it.
The stated reason is that we can get more members and activity by being
Web-based. In discussing this, they mentioned how FEW people actually post
here as opposed to visit the Web site. The difference is impressive.
I don't think that they're making this huge move just to try to get
membership dues from the 10 or so non-Mensans who are fairly regular here.
> And that includes many nonMensans. So be it.
> Of course, correctly or incorrectly, ROM will once again singularly
> reflect on Mensans in general usenet circles, so I have to wonder how
> smart the whole move is.
>
Usenet is a pretty small fish compared to the rest of the Web, but I really
wish that we had a presence here as well. Still, I doubt that Mensa will
lose much by leaving. Time will tell.
P
Steven
> Right. I said that I don't want to pay dues to Mensa for an
> uncluttered mailbox.
> I already belong to three e-mail lists.
that.
> >I said that to use the Mensa group is free as well. Penny's free email
list
> >is exactly the same degree of free (i.e., no charge) as the Mensa email
> >list.
>
> Right. But on a far higher intellectual level than MTM. So I won't drop
them
> for MTM.
>
> I have friends here--just e-mail me. Sometimes, I will post on ROM.
Many will be sorry to see you leave.
I gather you wouldn't be dropping MTM if its
intellectual level wasn't inferior to your other
e-mail lists?
Have these e-mail lists acheived a far higher
intellectual level by restricting access to those
of a proven higher intellectual level and/or
authenticating posters?
Do you think the intellectual level of MTM would
be raised by implementing a similar policy?
Any ideas on how else the intellectual level
of MTM could be improved to the point where
you would return?
Sharon Vol
> The stated reason is that we can get more members and activity by being
> Web-based. In discussing this, they mentioned how FEW people actually post
> here as opposed to visit the Web site. The difference is impressive.
IIRC, there wasn't a link to this group on mensa.org. There was a page
describing the Usenet Mensa groups, but no easy way to access them. Correct
me if I'm wrong.
So instead of simply adding a link for visitors to the site to click on to
access mensa.talk.misc, Mensa has decided to create a totally new format.
That's how I see it, at least.
Bill Vajk
> Clearly, when a previous poster (Bill Vajk) wrote "More for
> some than others?" he was referencing a nonmonetary definition of the
> word "free". Indeed, he was alluding to the inconvenience presented
> to nonMensans by the changeover.
Indeed.
BruceS
"Gistak" <gis...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BA46A07E.1DB6%gis...@hotmail.com...<snip>
> I'm sure that in the morning I'll wonder why I kept
> explaining it to you.
Which will leave you just a little behind others.
> Usenet is a pretty small fish compared to the rest of the Web, but I
really
> wish that we had a presence here as well. Still, I doubt that Mensa will
> lose much by leaving. Time will tell.
As one of the non-Mensans who used to post pretty often here, I can say that
this move will *not* affect whether I join or not. Neither will I join just
to have decent access to the new format, nor will I refrain from joining out
of some pique. Of course, I speak for all the best non-Mensan regular MTM
posters.
Now, I'll just have to see if this even makes it. If not, no great loss.
Cl.Massé
news: 3E1CF840...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
> IMO this newsgroup was at its best when it had a huge white list. It
> has been obvious to me that more controls resulted in a generally
> less interesting and less meaningful forum.
Above all when the control is done some way. Trying to bend the
discussion can only stifle it, and not achieve the: "see, smart people
think that way" result. (any likeness or similarity with a newsgroup
that exists or existed would be pure coincidence.) Why that? Err...
just because it's smart people.
> Nothing about this speculation is important, being merely an amusing
> commentary about the demise of the newsgroup. It has, more or less,
> been a prolonged death.
Privileging Mensa members or not, it will still be the same, and I speak
as a privileged person. Mensa is characterized by a hot exchange of
unconventional and inconvenient ideas. The troubles doesn't come from
external people. There is no way and no purpose to change that.
In fact, mtm was listed in all news servers, while the mailing list is
much more difficult to find, and will die slowly. The ideas of the
Mensa members will then be hidden from the face of the world. Have we
something to conceal?
--
~~~~ %20cl...@free.fr%20 LPF
Liberty, Equality, Profitability.
PSmith9626
I will miss many. But, they and you can reach me on ROM or by e-mail.
>Many will be sorry to see you leave.
>I gather you wouldn't be dropping MTM if its
>intellectual level wasn't inferior to your other
>e-mail lists?
If that were true, I would use a random number generator, as three lists is
already almost too much.
>Have these e-mail lists acheived a far higher
>intellectual level by restricting access to those
>of a proven higher intellectual level and/or
>authenticating posters?
Yes. Both.
>Do you think the intellectual level of MTM would
>be raised by implementing a similar policy?
Yes.
>Any ideas on how else the intellectual level
>of MTM could be improved to the point where
>you would return?
I am drowning in lists. Usenet is easier.
I don't want to pay dues for a newsgroup.
I am grateful for you caring and friendship,s
steven.
all best
penny
Joseph Weinstein
I guess air isn't really free because some folks have stuffed up noses.
zookumar
>On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:43:45 -0500, Gistak wrote:
>> Your WHAT? Your FREE Hotmail account? But it's not really free for the
>> people who don't have access to computers! And people who do aren't
>> really FREE to use however they want. There are rules for use, invented
>> by the inudstrial complex.
>> I resent your attribution of universal freedom of action, when it's
>> actually very limited.
>> Or, wait. Did you just mean that it doesn't cost any money? Like I meant
>> when I said that it's free to use the Mensa list?
>> P
>ROFLMAO!
>MTM Newsserver access: Free ($)
>MTM Email access: Free ($)
>Hotmail account access: Free ($)
>Z hoist on own petard: Priceless ($)
Help me out here folks. Is everyone a frippin' genius but me?
[A] "No. Free is free" is a direct rebuttal of
[B] "More for some than others" is an extension of
[C] "The best things in life are free".
For the genii out there, let's follow the logic trail, shall
we? [C] initiates a monetary cost context. [B] on [C] changes this
monetary cost context to other cost contexts, and precisely because if
[B] *were* a monetary cost context, then that forces $0.00 > $0.00,
which is illogical. Ergo, [A} is forced into a nonmonetary cost
context if it's function is to be a logical rebuttal of [B]. Granted,
[A] could have remained with the original context if it had *opted*
not to be a rebuttal of [B]. But we know this not to be the case, in
fact, it is an emphatic rebuttal of [B]; which is why we have [A]
"_No_. Free is free" as opposed to a variation [A2] "Free is free".
Ergo, the final output statement [A] is logically valid only outside
the context of money. Of course, Gistak offers it as a direct
rebuttal of Bill Vajk's statement _and_ maintains a monetary context
for it. As the two actions are mutually exclusive, we can conclude
that Gistak is confused. We can equally conclude that Vince is
confused. Any more candidates for genius out there that want to try
their luck?
>Apologies to MasterCard (tm)
>Thank You Gistak, that made my week!
I'm used to logical fallacies from you and Gistak, Vince, so
this will only make my next two minutes. After that, I really have to
get back to working on my spanking new cartooning website, scheduled
to open on April 01, 2003.
If you want to do something constructive (as opposed to
something as self-destructive as your misadventured humour above,
visit "http://www.zookumar.com/" and offer up your nastiest
criticisms.
Cheers
-zookumar-
zookumar
>I guess air isn't really free because some folks have stuffed up noses.
I guess not. But how is that relevant to anything written in
this newsgroup, oh, for the past eight months (let alone this thread)?
Anyways, try Kleenex.
-zookumar-
Bill Vajk
> I guess air isn't really free because some folks have stuffed up noses.
Actually, some get lots of pollution, others get none.
Quality does count. Ancillary costs matter.
Is a "free gift" for which one has to pay a
shipping fee really free?
Gistak
<bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Even if it were totally free shipping (money-wise), it still wouldn't
necessarily mean that people in the Amazon basin could get it shipped to
them.
So, therefore (or should I say, "to wit") it isn't really free. By some
people's reckoning, that is.
P
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Vince wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:43:45 -0500, Gistak wrote:
>>> Your WHAT? Your FREE Hotmail account? But it's not really free for the
>>> people who don't have access to computers! And people who do aren't
>>> really FREE to use however they want. There are rules for use, invented
>>> by the inudstrial complex.
>>> I resent your attribution of universal freedom of action, when it's
>>> actually very limited.
>>> Or, wait. Did you just mean that it doesn't cost any money? Like I meant
>>> when I said that it's free to use the Mensa list?
>>> P
>> ROFLMAO!
>> MTM Newsserver access: Free ($)
>> MTM Email access: Free ($)
>> Hotmail account access: Free ($)
>> Z hoist on own petard: Priceless ($)
>
> Help me out here folks. Is everyone a frippin' genius but me?
Hmmm.
>
> [A] "No. Free is free" is a direct rebuttal of
> [B] "More for some than others" is an extension of
> [C] "The best things in life are free".
>
True.
> For the genii out there, let's follow the logic trail, shall
> we? [C] initiates a monetary cost context.
Right!
> [B] on [C] changes this
> monetary cost context to other cost contexts, and precisely because if
> [B] *were* a monetary cost context, then that forces $0.00 > $0.00,
> which is illogical.
Please try to follow MY logic, now that I've read your attempt.
Let's say that I had said that the newsgroup was free monetarily, but Bill
had thought there was a hidden monetary cost to non-members. Something small
that I was trying to avoid mentioning.
If that was the case, I believe that he could have said that it's more free
for some than for others. OBVIOUSLY, that's not to be taken literally. It's
to be taken as a statement attacking the statement that it's free
(monetarily).
It does not follow logically that he MUST not be talking about money! He
definitely could have made the same statement while talking purely about
money.
You ASSUMED that he meant something else besides money. And you expected
everyone else to assume so as well. And when I responded, you assumed that I
was on that wavelength, even when I told you (approaching a dozen times)
that I wasn't.
I try not to make those kinds of assumptions, and more to the point, I don't
expect other people to. And this is really why I responded the way that I
did (though, of course, you never asked).
I wanted to be clear to people reading this list that it doesn't cost any
money to join the email list. Whatever Bill meant, this was a public
discussion (as you know, since you joined it late), and I don't want any
confusion about it.
You misread me. And because of something inside you, you didn't ask me what
I meant, but instead accused me of lying, being illogical, and trying to
confuse people, among other things.
It's been like this since practically the first day that you posted here,
and I told you then that it was an ugly way to deal with people who are
different from you or disagree with you. It can turn YOUR misread into
name-calling.
P
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I guess it's time to tell yet another person that he's not a critical
thinker, or he's illogical, not objective, or a liar.
P
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Vince wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Jan 2003 22:43:45 -0500, Gistak wrote:
>>> Your WHAT? Your FREE Hotmail account? But it's not really free for the
>>> people who don't have access to computers! And people who do aren't
>>> really FREE to use however they want. There are rules for use, invented
>>> by the inudstrial complex.
>>> I resent your attribution of universal freedom of action, when it's
>>> actually very limited.
>>> Or, wait. Did you just mean that it doesn't cost any money? Like I meant
>>> when I said that it's free to use the Mensa list?
>>> P
>> ROFLMAO!
>> MTM Newsserver access: Free ($)
>> MTM Email access: Free ($)
>> Hotmail account access: Free ($)
>> Z hoist on own petard: Priceless ($)
>
> Help me out here folks. Is everyone a frippin' genius but me?
>
> [A] "No. Free is free" is a direct rebuttal of
> [B] "More for some than others" is an extension of
> [C] "The best things in life are free".
Actually, looking at this again, I think you left out a bit. I had said that
the MTM group is free (monetarily, of course), then Bill said, "more for
some than others?"
I don't think that B is any kind of "extension" of C. B is a "rebuttal" of
me saying that the group is free.
There, I feel better now.
P
zookumar
>On 1/12/03 11:46 PM, in article 3E2210CE...@hotmail.com, "Bill Vajk"
><bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Joseph Weinstein wrote:
>>> I guess air isn't really free because some folks have stuffed up noses.
>> Actually, some get lots of pollution, others get none.
>> Quality does count. Ancillary costs matter.
>> Is a "free gift" for which one has to pay a
>> shipping fee really free?
>Even if it were totally free shipping (money-wise), it still wouldn't
>necessarily mean that people in the Amazon basin could get it shipped to
>them.
Except that the meaning of "free" that is most immediate and
most relevant, namely, the one configured by the statement "More for
some than others?", is being abused in scenarios less logistically
demanding than shipping routes to the Amazon basin. The new order is
*imposing* a level of discomfort on an existing freedom. In contrast,
shipping routes to the Amazon basin had never existed. Separate from
the argument of property rights, which I concede fully supports the
new order as it's being implemented, this restriction of access for
some MTM regulars, with other MTM regulars not being similarly
restricted, ie. the creation of two separate classes of MTMer from
one original class, makes mockery of the statement "No. Free is free".
Moreover, it begs the question why anyone would assert such an
orthogonal comment if not to deride the original observation "More for
some than others?"
To wit, you created the confusion, Gistak. Perhaps in your
own mind; but more likely, you created the confusion for others
because it offends your bureaucratic sensibilities that anyone should
question any aspect of the change to the new order, even as mildly as
Bill Vajk was doing, as I am doing now (remember, I've already
conceded the right of Mensa to do what it wants with its own
newsservers). In any event, you are smart enough to know the exact
context of "More for some than others?", eg. a context of convenience
and *not* of money. Yet you infused the money context where it wasn't
being used. And while it's true that Penny was talking about money,
your rebuttal was to Bill Vajk, not to Penny. Do you see the
possibilties for confusion here and the architect of the confusion?
One other thing. Let's look at Penny's own words on the
matter.
<Pennysownwords>
"Right. I said that I don't want to pay dues to Mensa for an
uncluttered mailbox. I already belong to three e-mail lists."
</Pennysownwords>
To wit, Penny understands the new arrangement for what it is:
a tax on her resources. She understands that there is less freedom in
the new order short of paying Mensa dues. Indeed, less freedom in her
*own* order were she not to pay dues and take on a fourth email list.
IOW, free is *not* free for Penny in both senses of the word "free",
for even if she doesn't *have* to pay monetarily for the new email
list, she will have to pay in other ways (either by sacrificing one of
her other lists, or by cluttering up her emailbox). In short, "No.
Free is free." is as vacuous a statement as has appeared on MTM as any
for a long while. Be big enough to admit it. Or be small. It's not
going to change my world.
>So, therefore (or should I say, "to wit") it isn't really free. By some
>people's reckoning, that is.
By superior reasoning, you mean. Wot?
-zookumar-
zookumar
What? Are you suggesting that critical thinking was involved
(in Joe's statement above)? As for the other charges, Joe will let
me know if I had intimated anything as wild as what grows in that
fertile maverick mindscape of yours.
-zookumar-
Gistak
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gistak wrote:
> the creation of two separate classes of MTMer from
> one original class, makes mockery of the statement "No. Free is free".
No it doesn't. Free IS free. I'm sure of it. 'Cause I looked up "Free" in
the dictionary, and it said that it means, "Free."
It is free for everyone. That is, (to clarify), it doesn't cost anyone any
money to participate.
> Moreover, it begs the question why anyone would assert such an
> orthogonal comment if not to deride the original observation "More for
> some than others?"
>
"Deride" ? No. To clear up the fact that is free for everyone. That is (to
clarify), it doesn't cost anyone any money to participate.
I spoke about why I did it in another post, which you haven't responded to.
You, of course, have never actually ASKED me why.
> To wit, you created the confusion, Gistak. Perhaps in your
> own mind; but more likely, you created the confusion for others
> because it offends your bureaucratic sensibilities that anyone should
> question any aspect of the change to the new order, even as mildly as
> Bill Vajk was doing, as I am doing now
Once again, you speak about my opinions and sensibilities without ASKING
what they are. (Or bothering to read what I've written about them.)
As long as you can make a personal atack, you're happy to ignore the fact
that I don't LIKE the change. That I didn't WANT the change, that I AGREED
that it affects non-members substantially, that I said outright that I wish
it wasn't happening, that I have REPEATEDLY told you that I was only talking
about money, that I EXPLAINED that I was clearing up the money issue for
others reading the thread.
Since all of the above is true, and since you keep ignoring those facts, I
guess you have officially become a troll. Since we agree on what is
supposedly your whole point (that non-members have fewer choices than
members), you are now officially not interested in any discussion except to
accuse, attack, and insult.
Again.
> To wit, Penny understands the new arrangement for what it is
Yes. And I never once said or implied that she didn't.
To wit.
wot
P