Nigeria and Miss World
Catharine Honeyman
Donald Trump's organization tried to hold one of the world's premiere meat
markets in a conservative Muslim country and touched off days of rioting.
WHAT were they thinking?
Now I read that the woman whose column started the whole thing -- she wrote
that not only would Mohammed not have been offended by the Miss World
pageant, he probably would have married one of the contestants -- is under
death sentence. I'm not sure if it's an official government position or
just a fatwa, though. I'd appreciate clarification.
What is it about Islam that makes many of its followers so damn touchy? Is
it the divide between North and South, recently commented on in The
Atlantic? (An article last month said that northern, i.e. tolerant,
liberal, secure Christianity is dwindling in relationship to southern
Christianity, which is tribal, superstitious, and quick to take offense.)
Is Islam the same way? Would that comment have caused bloodshed in the
streets in Turkey or one of the Muslim former Soviet republics? If you are
Muslim and are reading this, would you have been offended? I certainly
don't understand the offense. I mean, Mohammed did have multiple wives,
right? I am sure he was appreciative of beautiful women.
Is anyone as uncomfortable as I am that the company that makes Viagra also
markets it heavily in Africa? (I can't remember who makes it; I know it's
someone I'm always yelling about.) Not that I think that impotent African
men in stable relationships don't have the right to get their ya-yas out.
But this is a continent where they still shave off women's clitorises off.
(BTW, I have discovered that there is another plural for clitoris:
clitorides. Who knew?) This is a continent where there is a substantial
folk belief that you can rid yourself of AIDS by having sex with a virgin.
I don't know, am I falling into the trap of believing that Africans are
over-sexed fools? I'd say that Viagra shouldn't be sold to anyone who
cannot manage his erections responsibly, but that would certainly close
down a lot of the European and American market, too. Is it right, though,
to sell Viagra in an area where erections and men's obsessions about them
cause so much misery to women and girls?
And that that company is permitted to market Viagra in Africa, but our
moronic President is still refusing to put up the bucks for birth control
services through the U.N. because they mention the dread word abortion.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
Character is what you do when no one's watching.
M. A. Pickering
"Catharine Honeyman" <cat...@spamcop.net> wrote in message
news:20021127170211.697$l...@newsreader.com...
>
> Now I read that the woman whose column started the whole thing -- she
wrote
> that not only would Mohammed not have been offended by the Miss World
> pageant, he probably would have married one of the contestants -- is under
> death sentence. I'm not sure if it's an official government position or
> just a fatwa, though. I'd appreciate clarification.
Fatwah.
Mark P.
rian
to buy their stock (she was on a fellowship there), that is why I know.
I am glad I didn't.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population
is growing.
Rian
"Catharine Honeyman" <cat...@spamcop.net> schreef in bericht
news:20021127170211.697$l...@newsreader.com...
Cl.Massé
20021127170211.697$l...@newsreader.com...
> What is it about Islam that makes many of its followers so damn
> touchy?
Provocation?
> Mohammed did have multiple wives, right?
Four. That's why the Muslims are allowed to have up to four wives. (If
the local law allows it)
--
~~~~ %20cl...@free.fr%20 LPF
To have your rejected posts appear at http://clmasse.free.fr/mtm/
email them to me with the full header.
Bill Vajk
> "Catharine Honeyman" <cat...@spamcop.net> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021127170211.697$l...@newsreader.com...
>>What is it about Islam that makes many of its followers so damn
>>touchy?
> Provocation?
Wrong answer for the English (the original) version of the
question.
BssnRX
>
>Four. That's why the Muslims are allowed to have up to four wives. (If
>the local law allows it)
>
Muhammad married at least 13 times, being married to sometimes 9 or 10 woman at
the same time. There is an interesting part of the Koran (that is usually left
out) that tells of 2 of Muhammad's wives complaining to him about the number of
wives he was keeping above the 4 he said a man could have. He went out to chat
with Gabrielle again, and Gabe told him that God said since he was the
messanger of God he could have more wives than the common man and that he could
kill the 2 wives if they kept complaining about it.
Cl.Massé
20021202162008...@mb-cg.aol.com...
> Muhammad married at least 13 times, being married to sometimes 9 or 10
> woman at the same time. There is an interesting part of the Koran
> (that is usually left out)
Of course! I read the whole Koran, and there isn't any trace of that.
Precisely such a provocation can make the Muslims touchy.
Bill Vajk
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021202162008...@mb-cg.aol.com...
>>Muhammad married at least 13 times, being married to sometimes 9 or 10
>>woman at the same time. There is an interesting part of the Koran
>>(that is usually left out)
> Of course! I read the whole Koran, and there isn't any trace of that.
> Precisely such a provocation can make the Muslims touchy.
History and religion don't mix.
BssnRX
>
Find a copy that hasn't had that part excised. The Bible has had many books
excised from it also. The powers that be in any religion will let the faithful
see only what the powers want them to see.
If it makes them "touchy", perhaps they need to look deeper into their religion
and also look into the ways humans have controlled each other since day one.
Religion has always been one of the best ways to controll your fellow beings.
Cl.Massé
> Find a copy that hasn't had that part excised.
If there exist one. And if it exists, who added the supplementary
parts? To which purpose?
In the Koran, each sourate and each verse has a number, so that we see
when one is lacking. It isn't a collection of books. It has a sole
author: Mohamed, inspired by the Gabriel archangel. The Bible has many
authors, mostly unknown, through oral tradition, and suffered many
translations.
> The Bible has had many books
> excised from it also. The powers that be in any religion will let the
> faithful see only what the powers want them to see.
> If it makes them "touchy", perhaps they need to look deeper into their
> religion and also look into the ways humans have controlled each other
> since day one. Religion has always been one of the best ways to
controll your fellow
beings.
Perhaps, but before taking out the straw in the eye of your neighbour,
take out the beam for yours. Isn't democracy a good way to control
your fellow beings, by giving them the illusion they decide the
politics. Can our countries give so many lessons to others, when we see
so much poverty, even among the working ones, just in the middle of so
much richness? And when precisely those poor people are blamed for all
that goes wrong?
What would you do if there were provocation about democracy, freedom,
individualism and all that? I know, you would do like the Americans do
toward Cuba.
Bill Vajk
> What would you do if there were provocation about democracy, freedom,
> individualism and all that? I know, you would do like the Americans do
> toward Cuba.
What is it we do towards Cuba?
We refuse to trade with them. The real trouble began when Castro &
Company loaded the island with nuclear headed ICBM's. I need see
nothing beyond that fact.
Are you an Islamic apologist now?
Henry Chang
Religion is necessary to insert a moral code into society unless the vast
majority of the members of the society are literate. If that is the case,
then people are capable of understanding a code of ethics and laws,
nationalism should take precedence and religion slowly fades to the
background.
One of the reasons for the Taliban to ban women from being educated, IMO.
Henry
very amateur anthropologist
BssnRX
>your fellow beings, by giving them the illusion they decide the
>politics.
We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic. I have no illusions about
who controls this country. But I'd rather have this than any country controlled
by any religion.
>Perhaps, but before taking out the straw in the eye of your neighbour,
>take out the beam for yours.
I have no beam in my eye. What you see is the gleam in it.
>I know, you would do like the Americans do
>toward Cuba.
I'm an American and I don't do anything towards Cuba except tell my
representitives to lift the embargo so I don't have to go through so much
trouble to get Cuban cigars,
Cl.Massé
> >your fellow beings, by giving them the illusion they decide the
> >politics.
"BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20021207004838...@mb-dh.aol.com...
> We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.
Same answer as above, replacing "democracy" with "republic", or anything
you want.
> I have no illusions about who controls this country.
There is at least one.
> But I'd rather have this than any country controlled by any religion.
Did you tried one?
Because, the citizens of a country controlled by a religion don't want
to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How comes?
Bill Vajk
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021207004838...@mb-dh.aol.com...
>>But I'd rather have this than any country controlled by any religion.
> Did you tried one?
> Because, the citizens of a country controlled by a religion don't want
> to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How comes?
Wrong.
There's a real cluster here. Most cab drivers and convenience store
operators in the Chicago area are Muslim. To narrow that down, the
store operators are primarily Pakistani. Half a mile from where I
sit as I write this is a mosque built during the last decade. Before
9-11 it was a growing community. They've become very low key since
then.
Immigrants come to Chicago because while it has a bit of the flavor
of New York (the biggest difference is that Chicago is clean)
Chicago remains affordable and it has the advantaage that the natives
are friendly.
gistak
news:at2nni$i...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> > > Isn't democracy a good way to control
> > >your fellow beings, by giving them the illusion they decide the
> > >politics.
>
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021207004838...@mb-dh.aol.com...
>
> > We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.
>
> Same answer as above, replacing "democracy" with "republic", or anything
> you want.
>
> > I have no illusions about who controls this country.
>
> There is at least one.
>
> > But I'd rather have this than any country controlled by any religion.
>
> Did you tried one?
I have tried several. A secular country is best for anyone who doesn't
believe in the religion that the state follows.
> Because, the citizens of a country controlled by a religion don't want
> to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How comes?
Well, you're wrong there. Lots and lots of Muslims are doing their very best
to get to the US. I don't know why you think otherwise.
But some of them don't want to, of course, because of any number of reasons.
Maybe they WANT to live in a country ruled by religion.
But following your own logic, they haven't TRIED living in the US, so they
really don't know if it's better. Neither does anyone who hasn't tried it.
According to YOUR logic.
P
Cl.Massé
news: 3DF1065E...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
> What is it we do towards Cuba?
>
> We refuse to trade with them. The real trouble began when Castro &
> Company loaded the island with nuclear headed ICBM's. I need see
> nothing beyond that fact.
A nuclear nation blaming another one for being a nuclear nation! Our La
Fontaine say: "La raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure!" Is
"to refuse to trade with" a sweet euphemism for "a blockade"?
The fact is, the American doesn't stand the close presence of Cuba.
They react like fundamentalists. That's a good example of how one
becomes a fanatic. So, let's us not make fanatics out of innocuous
religious people.
> Are you an Islamic apologist now?
That's an easy shot. I'm not anti-Semitic either, nor communist.
BssnRX
Which is?
>Because, the citizens of a country controlled by a religion don't want
>to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How comes?
Probably because the people that would like to leave can't afford to get out.
Far more people try to get to this country to live than try to go from this
country to a muslim country to live. Why is that? If muslim countries are so
great, why are there no people from other countries trying to get there? We
have so many people trying to get into this country that we have ever stricter
immigration laws in place. Don't think the same can be said about any muslim
country, at least none that I know of. "Hey Honey, let's move to some muslim
country so you can wear that nice new burka I got you for your birthday"
Get a grip.
Feek O'Hanrahan
>>> Isn't democracy a good way to control
>>> your fellow beings, by giving them the illusion they decide the
>>> politics.
>
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021207004838...@mb-dh.aol.com...
>
>> We don't live in a democracy. We live in a republic.
>
> Same answer as above, replacing "democracy" with "republic", or
> anything you want.
>
>> I have no illusions about who controls this country.
>
> There is at least one.
>
>> But I'd rather have this than any country controlled by any religion.
>
> Did you tried one?
> Because, the citizens of a country controlled by a religion don't want
> to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How comes?
My rommate's brother-in-law is a Muslim from Egypt, and I've known quite a
few Muslim immigrants in this area. Granted, that's not a very big
representation of the public at large, but I do know that the brother-in-law
wants to return to Egypt, not because he doesn't like our country (as a
matter of fact, he says he loves it here and wishes he could stay), but
because of how their religion views the elderly and the children's
responsibility to them. In his mind he *has* to return to take care of his
mother.
Just a theory on why they don't emmigrate from where they live.
--
Left to themselves, thoughts will merely spin in circles. Racing
themselves down a path they've already beaten.
- Tyler Trafford
Bill Vajk
> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
> news: 3DF1065E...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>Are you an Islamic apologist now?
> That's an easy shot. I'm not anti-Semitic either, nor communist.
It is a legitimate question with no answer. In the absence of a
definitive answer I am left to my own devices.
Bill Vajk
> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
> news: 3DF1065E...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
>>What is it we do towards Cuba?
>>We refuse to trade with them. The real trouble began when Castro &
>>Company loaded the island with nuclear headed ICBM's. I need see
>>nothing beyond that fact.
> A nuclear nation blaming another one for being a nuclear nation! Our La
> Fontaine say: "La raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure!" Is
> "to refuse to trade with" a sweet euphemism for "a blockade"?
The "blockade" was limited in duration and to prevent more nukes from
entering Cuba. Do you have any knlowledge whatever of modern world
events? Can you tell me whether or not the US blockades Europeans
from vacationing in Cuba and spending their money there?
> The fact is, the American doesn't stand the close presence of Cuba.
> They react like fundamentalists. That's a good example of how one
> becomes a fanatic. So, let's us not make fanatics out of innocuous
> religious people.
No. Not at all. The US held the line on nuclear proliferation. Count me
among the fanatical about that. Still, that has nothing to do with
religion. Do you understand the diffrence?
rian
already moslim. They can go on holiday to their homeland, retire there
on a statepension and send money home to their parents. The children
still left with mom in the homecountry even get child-benefits (if the
gov there will give them a document stating they do not own too much
land and houses, Marocco won't).
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Feek O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> schreef in bericht
news:at5dcs$k...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Cl.Massé
> >want to live in the USA (very few Muslim immigrant in the USA). How
> >comes?
"BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
20021210105104...@mb-fe.aol.com...
> Probably because the people that would like to leave can't afford to
> get out.
Or maybe not. There are very rich Muslim countries because of oil.
> Far more people try to get to this country to live than try to go from
> this country to a muslim country to live. Why is that?
Because the world outside of America is bigger than the one inside.
There are 6 billon people on earth.
> If muslim countries are so
> great, why are there no people from other countries trying to get
> there?
I reasure you, there are. But there are also people from there who
don't want to go to the US, namely from Iraq, Iran...
> We
> have so many people trying to get into this country that we have ever
> stricter immigration laws in place. Don't think the same can be said
> about any muslim country, at least none that I know of.
That's the problem: you don't know of. You prefer to live in a country
you know of, precisely because you know of, since it requires much less
adaptation effort. You'd better try and learn to know of other
countries
Feek O'Hanrahan
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021210105104...@mb-fe.aol.com...
>
>> great, why are there no people from other countries trying to get
>> there?
>
> I reasure you, there are. But there are also people from there who
> don't want to go to the US, namely from Iraq, Iran...
Makes one wonder how many emmigration visas (or whatever they're called)
Iraq (and I suppose Iran) grant people who want to travel to the US. My
guess is not too many, but that's only a guess.
BssnRX
You missed the point. Rich people won't want to leave those countries. People
not receiving the benefits of all that oil might want to leave but can't afford
it. There are poor people in those rich oil countries.
>Because the world outside of America is bigger than the one inside.
>There are 6 billon people on earth.
>
Huh?
>I reasure you, there are. But there are also people from there who
>don't want to go to the US, namely from Iraq, Iran...
>
I assure you, there are plenty of people that want to get here from those
countries and have come here from those countries in the past. It is a bit
difficult for people in those countries to get visas to come here at this point
in time.
>You prefer to live in a country
>you know of, precisely because you know of, since it requires much less
>adaptation effort. You'd better try and learn to know of other
>countries
You assume when you shouldn't. I have lived in other countries.I live here
because I prefer to. If you know of ANY other country that has as many people
trying to get into it as there are people trying to get into the USA I'd love
to know which countries they are. I doubt you'll be able to come up with even
one. Many people risk their lives trying to get here.
Cl.Massé
> No. Not at all. The US held the line on nuclear proliferation. Count
> me among the fanatical about that.
Will there be inspectors from UNO in the USA to verify the absence of
mass destruction weapons? It is whispered that the USA have the nuclear
weapon, and the anthrax that filled those letters has to come from
somewhere. And I don't even speak of the anti-personal mines. The rest
of the world should bomb the US and overthrow GWB.
> Still, that has nothing to do with
> religion. Do you understand the diffrence?
It has everything to do with fanatism and fundamentalism, be it
religious or other, that's exactly the same, if not worst.
Bill Vajk
> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
> news: 3DF6B27F...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
Re: Cuba
>>No. Not at all. The US held the line on nuclear proliferation. Count
>>me among the fanatical about that.
> Will there be inspectors from UNO in the USA to verify the absence of
> mass destruction weapons?
We don't need them. We have plenty of highly effective spies all over
Cuba. Besides, they have no significant money for such programs since
for the past decade+ their external source of foreign aid, primarily
the SU in its day, disappeared.
> It is whispered that the USA have the nuclear weapon,
So what?? So does Russia. We're here discussing proliferation,
not turning back the clock. As a NATO nation there are nukes
sitting in France as well. Do you want NATO gone from your
country? Do you think France strong enough to look after herself
in the event of another world war (see the example of the last
2 world wars for a baseline.) How long did it take for the
French Army to be driven from the home soil?
> and the anthrax that filled those letters has to come from
> somewhere.
That's a mystery we'd all love to see solved.
> And I don't even speak of the anti-personal mines.
I don't like them any more than you do. OTOH who is removing
the million+ known to remain deployed around the world? Then
ask yourself the origin of those which remain a problem everywhere
other than Viet Nam, a problem handed to the US by the failure of
French colonialism.
> The rest of the world should bomb the US and overthrow GWB.
Are you advocating the violent overthrow of the legitimate and
legal United States Government?
>>Still, that has nothing to do with
>>religion. Do you understand the diffrence?
> It has everything to do with fanatism and fundamentalism, be it
> religious or other, that's exactly the same, if not worst.
Well that's precisely the sort of thing I sense is the basis
of your arguments. Before today I don't remember anyone actually
advocating the violent overthrow of the US Government, even
jokingly. Given the state of affairs in the world today it
wasn't a particularly brilliant thing to write. You might well
have bit off rather more than you can chew.
Cl.Massé
atc5jk$8...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> Makes one wonder how many emmigration visas (or whatever they're
> called) Iraq (and I suppose Iran) grant people who want to travel to
> the US. My guess is not too many, but that's only a guess.
That's not a matter of visa, but of testimony of those very people. You
know, the ones who burn flags.
Cl.Massé
> You missed the point. Rich people won't want to leave those countries.
That was my point. (Very) rich American doesn't want to live the
country. (Very) poor ones can't.
> >Because the world outside of America is bigger than the one inside.
> >There are 6 billon people on earth.
> Huh?
You didn't know?
> I assure you, there are plenty of people that want to get here from
> those countries and have come here from those countries in the past.
> It is a bit difficult for people in those countries to get visas to
> come here at this point in time.
That's American propaganda. I often hear just the contrary, and
precisely from the true dwellers of those countries. The one that get
to the USA of course don't think so, and they are the only ones you
hear of. But are they statistically significant? Given in addition
that they are much more numerous in south European countries.
> You assume when you shouldn't. I have lived in other countries.
How many time. From your childhood? Did you lived in Iran?
> I live here because I prefer to. If you know of ANY other country that
> has as many people trying to get into it as there are people trying to
> get into the USA I'd love to know which countries they are. I doubt
> you'll be able to come up with even one. Many people risk their lives
> trying to get here.
No, I don't know of any country that has so many people disappointed
when they have gotten therein.
gistak
due to proximity, anyway.
P
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:at78c2$o...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Cl.Massé
3DF5F86F...@hotmail.com...
> There's a real cluster here. Most cab drivers and convenience store
> operators in the Chicago area are Muslim. To narrow that down, the
> store operators are primarily Pakistani. Half a mile from where I
> sit as I write this is a mosque built during the last decade. Before
> 9-11 it was a growing community. They've become very low key since
> then.
You probably have no idea of what is a country where Muslims want to go.
There is live outside of America.
Feek O'Hanrahan
> They emigrate by the millions to Europe. 1 million of our population
> is already moslim. They can go on holiday to their homeland, retire
> there on a statepension and send money home to their parents. The
> children still left with mom in the homecountry even get
> child-benefits (if the gov there will give them a document stating
> they do not own too much land and houses, Marocco won't).
Well, that's the thing. From what I understand (after having conversations
with the brother-in-law), the duty is not to just support the parents with
money, but to actually be there to take care of them. From that, I gather
that retiring somewhere else and just sending money home wouldn't be a
complete fufillment of one's responsibilities.
Of course, working and sending money home, with a plan to return home at
some point in the future is another matter. Actually, we have a lot of
Brazillians in this area doing that.
rian
differently.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Cl.Massé" <clm...@online.fr> schreef in bericht
news:atdaa9$f...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Bill Vajk
> You probably have no idea of what is a country where Muslims want to go.
A goodly number wanted tocome here. I do agree that I have no idea
what or why you think they might prefer other countries unless they
are seeeking the dole.
The Poles, who represent a significant population in Chicaago (the
world's secod largest Polish city) have a saying, "You wanted
Ammerica, now work!" I would think EU preferable for the lazy
ones.
> There is live outside of America.
My three favorite cities are Edinburg, Budapest, and Vienna. Have
you ever been outside of France?
rian
and grandchildren.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Feek O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> schreef in bericht
news:atc5f7$8...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
Gistak
The part where he says that the rest of the world should bomb the US?
P
On 12/15/02 5:27 AM, in article atdvbu$7...@chicago.us.mensa.org, "rian"
Gistak
<clm...@online.fr> wrote:
> "BssnRX" <bss...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message news:
> 20021212235953...@mb-fo.aol.com...
>
>> You missed the point. Rich people won't want to leave those countries.
>
> That was my point. (Very) rich American doesn't want to live the
> country. (Very) poor ones can't.
>
>>> Because the world outside of America is bigger than the one inside.
>>> There are 6 billon people on earth.
>
>> Huh?
>
> You didn't know?
>
>> I assure you, there are plenty of people that want to get here from
>> those countries and have come here from those countries in the past.
>> It is a bit difficult for people in those countries to get visas to
>> come here at this point in time.
>
> That's American propaganda. I often hear just the contrary, and
> precisely from the true dwellers of those countries.
How do they know? I have met literally hundreds of people who have asked me
to help them get into the US. A great number of those were Muslims.
> The one that get
> to the USA of course don't think so, and they are the only ones you
> hear of.
Why do you assume that other people are so provincial? You say that YOU know
all sorts of things, so why must it be that people who disagree don't know
anything?
> But are they statistically significant? Given in addition
> that they are much more numerous in south European countries.
>
>> You assume when you shouldn't. I have lived in other countries.
>
> How many time. From your childhood? Did you lived in Iran?
>
Did you?
>> I live here because I prefer to. If you know of ANY other country that
>> has as many people trying to get into it as there are people trying to
>> get into the USA I'd love to know which countries they are. I doubt
>> you'll be able to come up with even one. Many people risk their lives
>> trying to get here.
>
> No, I don't know of any country that has so many people disappointed
> when they have gotten therein.
>
So what? They get the US to find that it isn't a magical place. You were
saying that they didn't want to come at all. Are you changing your position?
P
Bill Vajk
rian wrote:
>Here I have to agree with Claude. And I do not know any people
>who think differently.
It turns out that US political philosophy and practice, even with
its shortcomings, demonstrably works under all circumstances. I
don't see that being true for very many places and it certainly
isn't true for the Netherlands, let alone France.
I think it foolish, when there is plenty, to bite the hand that feeds
during difficult periods. Twice during the last century the US had
to rush to Europe's aid, first with military power, then with
prolonged economic assistance.
Is anyone so short sighted as to think it cannot or will never happen
again even if the monolith of EU forms the sought after coalescence?
Don't forget even for a second that WW1 was, in great part, the result
of an interleaved treaties among cooperating nations. Enlarging the
baseline doesn't negate the vulnerabilities of treaty systems.
Given the century long relationship that the US has had with France and
the Netherlands I can't see where any citizen of those countries can
possibly entertain any legitimate criticism of the US or its policies.
Joseph
issues also. perhaps someone there can shed more light on the idea.
Joseph
rian
the US could not capture that bridge too far. And If I give you a
handout now, can I call back on you 60 years from now to do my bidding
because of that handout?
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Bill Vajk" <bill9...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:3DFE89BC...@hotmail.com...
Bill Vajk
> In WW1 we were neutral. In WWII we were liberated by the canadians when
> the US could not capture that bridge too far. And If I give you a
> handout now, can I call back on you 60 years from now to do my bidding
> because of that handout?
Given that what I wrote earlier:
>>It turns out that US political philosophy and practice, even with
>>its shortcomings, demonstrably works under all circumstances. I
>>don't see that being true for very many places and it certainly
>>isn't true for the Netherlands, let alone France.
represents a system that works, and the system in the Netherlands
has never demonstrated that level of stability over long periods.
I invite Dutch citizens to follow their inclinations even if they
are as you describe. You'll come crying when Al Qaeda blows a hole
in your dike. Doubtless we'll mop up afterwards as we always have,
and in another 50 or 60 years your people will want to forget all
over again.
That's precisely why you need the US.
Cl.Massé
> > go.
"Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
news: 3DFC96EF...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
> A goodly number wanted tocome here. I do agree that I have no idea
> what or why you think they might prefer other countries unless they
> are seeeking the dole.
You surely have no idea of what is a country where Muslims want to go!
The set of natural integers is unbounded from above.
rian
sept 1944, the rest in may 1945. Most people lieve in the north. Most
agriculture AND the coalmines were in the south, so we starved to death
and froze to death in the worst winter in 50 years. My life was saved
because before sept my parents smuggled a lot of tobacco from my uncle
near Maastricht and sold sigarettes for food and money. That way they
could pay 100 dollar for a quart of milk to feed me. My ex's mother and
aunt nearly died with hungeredema in Rotterdam.
The British airmen shot my grandmother in the knee when she was
gathering firewood and the bombed my parents along with a whole section
of the city because they did not know the difference between east and
west of the woods.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"dave" <grum...@onebox.com> schreef in bericht
news:56luvug8j76qm35v4...@4ax.com...
> On 17 Dec 2002 08:33:38 -0600, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> >In WW1 we were neutral. In WWII we were liberated by the canadians
when
> >the US could not capture that bridge too far. And If I give you a
> >handout now, can I call back on you 60 years from now to do my
bidding
> >because of that handout?
>
> IIRC the US 101st was allocated responsibility for the bridges in the
> Eindhoven area, while the 82nd would seize those around Nijmegen. I
> think those units achieved that. The British 1st was to secure Arnhem,
> a much tougher target, 60 miles behind German lines. That part of the
> operation was doomed because they failed to listen to Dutch resistance
> who was warning them that a couple of SS Panzer Units had moved in to
> the area for rest and repair. In fairness to the Brits, earlier in the
> war, the Dutch resistance had been infiltrated by double agents and as
> a consequence, the Brits had lost a number of agents operating on the
> continent. Trust is hard to re-establish once it's gone.
>
> I always wondered how Wilhelm Hohenzollern, late the Kaiser of
> Imperial Germany and living in exile in Holland at the time of the
> Nazi invasion of 1940, felt about the resurgent Nazi Germany.
>
> -dave
>
Vince
> rian wrote:
>
<snip>
> I invite Dutch citizens to follow their inclinations even if they are as
> you describe. You'll come crying when Al Qaeda blows a hole in your
> dike.
Now it's just not fair, giving a straight line like that!.....
<g>
--
-Vince
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
rian
to shoot in 2 lines on a road or so. This was a wooded area, next to an
area where Germans had occupied a mansion. Also the wrong victims.
Colateral damage shrub calls it! Luckily, all the family apart from me
(6 months and my babtsitting grandfther stayed at home. So she had help.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"dave" <grum...@onebox.com> schreef in bericht
news:76gvvu4bqqlcibj3b...@4ax.com...
> On 17 Dec 2002 14:18:58 -0600, "rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
>
> >I was talking about the north, below the Rhine bridges was liberated
in
> >sept 1944, the rest in may 1945. Most people lieve in the north. Most
> >agriculture AND the coalmines were in the south, so we starved to
death
> >and froze to death in the worst winter in 50 years. My life was saved
> >because before sept my parents smuggled a lot of tobacco from my
uncle
> >near Maastricht and sold sigarettes for food and money. That way they
> >could pay 100 dollar for a quart of milk to feed me. My ex's mother
and
> >aunt nearly died with hungeredema in Rotterdam.
> >The British airmen shot my grandmother in the knee when she was
> >gathering firewood and the bombed my parents along with a whole
section
> >of the city because they did not know the difference between east and
> >west of the woods.
>
> Thanks for sharing that, rian. I recall you'd made mention of the
> woods and the wounding of your poor Grandmother before. That must have
> been a fairly large caliber weapon- typical gunnery on aircraft at the
> time was .50 cal. Or was it shrapnel?
>
> I admire you and your people's perseverance in that tragic time very
> much.
>
> -dave
>
Cl.Massé
3DFE89BC...@hotmail.com...
> I think it foolish, when there is plenty, to bite the hand that feeds
> during difficult periods. Twice during the last century the US had
> to rush to Europe's aid, first with military power, then with
> prolonged economic assistance.
A good doing isn't a credit for bad doings. Do you think that a French
can be bought? It seems that US political philosophy and practice
stumbled at that block.
Anyway, the US only look after their interests. If they have none, they
won't help us anyway, whatever we do. And if they have some, they will
do whatever they want. We saw this about Milosevic. No oil, war may
flare in Europe, the US don't care.
Besides, all of Europe is under France's and UK's nuclear umbrella.
There are ten additional members, and even Turkey want to enter. So
many things have changed since WWII.
BruceS
"Vince" <vincest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.12.18.04...@hotmail.com...
> On Tue, 17 Dec 2002 07:12:57 -0800, Bill Vajk wrote:
>
> > rian wrote:
> >
> <snip>
> > I invite Dutch citizens to follow their inclinations even if they are as
> > you describe. You'll come crying when Al Qaeda blows a hole in your
> > dike.
>
> Now it's just not fair, giving a straight line like that!.....
> <g>
If you're saying what I think you're saying, it isn't a straight line. Also,
it smacks of a spelling flame.
rian
We only get bombs because of our reluctant alliance with the US. We had
our share of train hyackings and occupations of embassies. We did not
ask the US for help, we ensured the US embassy could not be hit with a
car bomb.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:3DFF3A85...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
Vince
No flame.
btw, when I flame, there's not question of it "smacking of".
--
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Bill Vajk
> we are a very stable Democracy. Something the US still has to become.
What, you think 60 years means stable? That's a joke, right? And the
first 10 of that as an economic dependency?
> We only get bombs because of our reluctant alliance with the US.
You get bombs for the same reason we get them. There are cultures in
the world that are childlike and hate filled. It is easier for your
countrymen to always blame someone else than it is to face the fact
that the Netherlands is not universally loved. That actually isn't
a unique position, or even a unique viewpoint.
> We had our share of train hyackings and occupations of embassies. We
> did not ask the US for help, we ensured the US embassy could not
> be hit with a car bomb.
What sort of economic loss has your country experienced in the past
decade? How many lives lost to externally funded terrorism? Then go
back a century and look at the situation. I'd wager there's no way,
based on statistics alone, to tell one century from the other.
Your little country, about twice the size of one of our smallest
states (New Jersey,) doesn't have the brute strength to withstand
a serious invasion. Your military strength at the moment stands
about 74,000 (source, US CIA.) New York City alone has ~40,000
policemen officers in the police department, and more in other
departments. NYC has a larger police force than Canada has an
army (~55,000.)
It wouldn't take much of an invading force to take over your
country. Your stability, such as it is, is at the whim and
mercy of others, not because the Netherlands is strong and wonderful.
In the 1980's Budapest placed huge concrete flower boxes at the
edge of the sidewalk at the American embassy to prevent such
attacks.
It is no less than any good host would do under the circumstances.
I also noticed that several European countries put submachine gun
armed police to guard the El Al airline offices, and the El Al
offices were on the second floor (on purpose, I was told.)
Europe has never been a safe place. It still isn't. The US has had
a single constitutionally stable central government for more than
225 years. Remind me of your "stability" when you hit half that long
a period. I honestly don't think you'll make it.
The Swiss brag about their honesty. Still I'm sitting on several
thousands of their franks they have disavowed. Now *that* is
typical of European economic stability. US currency dating back
more than a century retains current value.
The US is far from perfect, but I believe your comparisons are
seriously flawed.
Henry Chang
>rian wrote:
>
>> we are a very stable Democracy. Something the US still has to become.
>
>What, you think 60 years means stable? That's a joke, right? And the
>first 10 of that as an economic dependency?
>
>> We only get bombs because of our reluctant alliance with the US.
>
>You get bombs for the same reason we get them. There are cultures in
>the world that are childlike and hate filled. It is easier for your
>countrymen to always blame someone else than it is to face the fact
>that the Netherlands is not universally loved. That actually isn't
>a unique position, or even a unique viewpoint.
I agree with Rian here.
If the US didn't involve itself in Mideast affairs (propping up
nondemocratic regimes in the interest of insuring a stable oil flow), we
wouldn't be on the receiving end of the religioius fanatics' desire to turn
those 'holy lands' into Islamic states.
The region of the world that is the most violent is Africa, generally we
don't meddle and there we stand outside the violence. The exception is
Somalia. We meddled, men died.
There is a price to be paid for meddling. Doesn't it make sense to let a
people decide for themselves what their government will be?
Henry
Gistak
<ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote:
> we are a very stable Democracy. Something the US still has to become.
> We only get bombs because of our reluctant alliance with the US. We had
> our share of train hyackings and occupations of embassies. We did not
> ask the US for help, we ensured the US embassy could not be hit with a
> car bomb.
>
> --
> Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
> The population is growing.
> Rian
It's amazing to me how much time and effort you put into saying that The
Netherlands are good and the U.S. is bad.
The idea that the U.S. (with the oldest working Constitution in the world)
isn't a stable Democracy is utterly ridiculous. I don't see how you can
bring yourself to write it.
The U.S. has been a major factor in bringing and maintaining what little
peace Europe has enjoyed. And still Europe can't seem to police its own
without our help (and when we give it, we're blamed for not giving enough).
The luxury that Europeans have to be Doves and scream for fewer "bombs"
comes at American's expense. You "reluctant" alliance with the U.S. ensures
your very survival. Your government knows this, but your people sometimes
don't.
P
Cl.Massé
3E01634A...@hotmail.com...
> You get bombs for the same reason we get them. There are cultures in
> the world that are childlike and hate filled.
Like the American culture is childlike and hate filled of communists,
Japanese, Blacks, Muslims...
And the cultures you speak of also get bombs, like Iraq, Cuba, Libya...
rian
Our non-violence campaigns logo is a ladybird.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Gistak" <gis...@hotmail.com> schreef in bericht
news:BA2721A4.D3B%gis...@hotmail.com...
Gistak
"Henry Chang" <lhchang.t...@adelphia.net> wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2002 05:52:09 -0600, Bill Vajk <bill9...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> rian wrote:
>>
>>> we are a very stable Democracy. Something the US still has to become.
>>
>> What, you think 60 years means stable? That's a joke, right? And the
>> first 10 of that as an economic dependency?
>>
>>> We only get bombs because of our reluctant alliance with the US.
>>
>> You get bombs for the same reason we get them. There are cultures in
>> the world that are childlike and hate filled. It is easier for your
>> countrymen to always blame someone else than it is to face the fact
>> that the Netherlands is not universally loved. That actually isn't
>> a unique position, or even a unique viewpoint.
>
>
>
>
> I agree with Rian here.
>
> If the US didn't involve itself in Mideast affairs (propping up
> nondemocratic regimes in the interest of insuring a stable oil flow), we
> wouldn't be on the receiving end of the religioius fanatics' desire to turn
> those 'holy lands' into Islamic states.
>
It's really hard to say what sort of state the world would be in if the US
didn't. You seem to feel comfortable in that analysis, but it's a bit
murkier to me. God only knows how the Arab countries would have turned out,
who they would have turned on, and what our world would be like.
My shot-in-the-dark guess is that more people in the world would be in
misery than are in misery today. But it's certainly possible that I'm wrong.
> The region of the world that is the most violent is Africa, generally we
> don't meddle and there we stand outside the violence. The exception is
> Somalia. We meddled, men died.
>
> There is a price to be paid for meddling. Doesn't it make sense to let a
> people decide for themselves what their government will be?
>
Just to be clear, when would you say the US should interfere? Under what
circumstances?
P
Bill Vajk
> If the US didn't involve itself in Mideast affairs (propping up
> nondemocratic regimes in the interest of insuring a stable oil flow), we
> wouldn't be on the receiving end of the religioius fanatics' desire to turn
> those 'holy lands' into Islamic states.
That's not an effective Islamic apologist argument. The suicide bombers
coming out of Islam are doing their bit for the sake of their
fundamentalist beliefs, not because they're angry about oil prices
or US meddling.
> The region of the world that is the most violent is Africa, generally we
> don't meddle and there we stand outside the violence.
They also don't have the oil money with which to export their troubles.
> The exception is Somalia. We meddled, men died.
Not quite that simple. Wherever they can get at us they want to kill us.
Our presence was enough.
> There is a price to be paid for meddling. Doesn't it make sense to let a
> people decide for themselves what their government will be?
What goes around comes around.
PSmith9626
But many are american blacks, not immigrants.
Still there are plenty of immigrants.
best
penny
>I know that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the USA with millions
>of adherents.
I have heard that Wicca is the fastest growing american religion.
PSmith9626
This is why I love the polymath.
best
penny
> In
>terms of percentage gain, I think the Shakers were the fastest for a while.
>(They were down to about six people, but recently began actively recruiting
Summa!
PSmith9626
No. The european population control has lead to an influx of millions of Muslem
workers. France is filled with North Africans. It is estimated that Norway will
be ( based on current breeding rates) over 1/3 Muslem in twenty years. This has
lead to the kind of Urban crime and school system collapse that the Europeans
laughed at america for. It has also led to a resurgence of the ultra right wing
in france, and germany.
Several of the European Islamic religous leaders have called for the
instillation of Islamic law in
various European countries within fifty years!
The class was inevitable. No America was required. It has nothing to
do--on the Islamic end--with oil.
best
Penny
>If the US didn't involve itself in Mideast affairs (propping up
>nondemocratic regimes in the interest of insuring a stable oil flow), we
>wouldn't be on the receiving end of the religioius fanatics' desire to turn
WRONG.
PSmith9626
He is french. He hasn't quite realized that the world center of high culture
has been new york city for sixty years. He judges our "childlike culture' from
Hollywood movies and TV.
best
penny
Once it was Paris--long ago and far away.
And I have lived in Paris. I liked it: It was the best imitiation of New York
city that monkeys could make.
>>Like the American culture is childlike and hate filled of communists,
>>Japanese, Blacks, Muslims...
>
>Just a guess ... you've never lived in the USA, have you?
No. He hasn't even visited. If he does, he gets a free lunch from me, and a
tour of Manhattan.
Henry Chang
>dear henry,
>No. The european population control has lead to an influx of millions of Muslem
>workers. France is filled with North Africans. It is estimated that Norway will
>be ( based on current breeding rates) over 1/3 Muslem in twenty years. This has
>lead to the kind of Urban crime and school system collapse that the Europeans
>laughed at america for. It has also led to a resurgence of the ultra right wing
>in france, and germany.
> Several of the European Islamic religous leaders have called for the
>instillation of Islamic law in
>various European countries within fifty years!
> The class was inevitable. No America was required. It has nothing to
>do--on the Islamic end--with oil.
On our end it has everything to do with oil. If there were no oil in the
Middle East, we would completely disengage from the region, just like we
have with Africa.
In the only Middle Eastern Nation where we don't meddle (Iran), Western
culture is very popular. The people strain against the bounds of the
fundamentalist bureaucracy. In other nations in the region, the governments
are propped up by the US (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan) and the Arab street
seethes with hatred. Remember, 15 of 19 terrorists came from Saudi Arabia,
our "ally". But Saudi Arabia gets no scrutiny from our government for that.
Why? OIL.
Henry
gistak
news:20021226090638...@mb-cs.aol.com...
Speaking of urban crime, Islam, and immigration in Europe, here's a long
article about the "Zone," which refers to crime-ridden areas outside major
French cities where mostly immigrants live. It's pretty grim.
One interesting thing is that although he recognizes that there are a lot of
Muslims there, he also notes that conversion rate TO Islam is high (as it is
in prisons and probably other tough places to live).
http://www.city-journal.org/html/12_4_the_barbarians.html
P
PSmith9626
The question was whether Europe would have to deal with Islamic terrorism if we
didn't do pushy things for oil in the middle east. My answer was--yes, and why.
best
penny
>On our end it has everything to do with oil.
etc.
All true, but irrelevant to my point.
Vince
> lhchang.t...@adelphia.net (Henry Chang) wrote in
> <3e0ca8cc....@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>
>>... 15 of 19 terrorists came
>>from Saudi Arabia, our "ally". But Saudi Arabia gets no scrutiny from
>>our government for that. Why? OIL.
>
> Also military bases in the region. IMHO, that's why Bush the 1st didn't
> take out Saddam Hussein when he had the chance. If we had done that,
> the Saudis would have said, "Thanks very much for ridding us of that mad
> dog. Now, go home." With Saddam in power, they needed us there to keep
> him on a short leash, so we were allowed to keep our bases.
>
> If we do go in a depose Saddam (excuse me, "enable regime change"), it
> will be very interesting to see what the Saudis have to say, once the
> mad dog is gone for good.
I would expect them to say something along the lines of "The new Iraqi
government has asked you to establish perminent military bases in thier
country? How...'nice' of them...."
Cl.Massé
20021226090638...@mb-cs.aol.com...
> The european population control has lead to an influx of millions of
> Muslem workers. France is filled with North Africans. It is estimated
> that Norway will be ( based on current breeding rates) over 1/3 Muslem
> in twenty years. This has lead to the kind of Urban crime and school
> system collapse that the Europeans laughed at america for.
Because they are North African, they are criminals? No, there are
criminals because they have no diploma, no work, no future, nothing, and
the employers are racist, and all that happen in a country where money
flows everywhere. Criminality isn't correlated to race, but to poverty.
That's exactly the same thing as in the USA, the failure of the western
system.
wrong
PSmith9626
I agree.
best
penny
>Message-id: <aukpc8$5...@chicago.us.mensa.org>
But, this still means that the arab terrorism would have hit france ( indeed it
did back in the 1990's and 1980's) without influence from the USA.
Remember that airliners were nearly steered in the Eifel Tower in the
1900's.
BruceS
But then the terrorists realized that there weren't any airliners yet, so
they tried to crash a maglev train into the Eiffel Tower, but that didn't
work out either.
Cl.Massé
Xns92EAA42CC...@207.252.248.9...
> Just a guess ... you've never lived in the USA, have you?
You've never lived in Nigeria, have you?
Joseph
clinton did not carry it to conclusion. reruns can be a bitch.
Joseph
Jerry Hollombe wrote:
>
> lhchang.t...@adelphia.net (Henry Chang) wrote in
> <3e0ca8cc....@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>
> >... 15 of 19 terrorists came
> >from Saudi Arabia, our "ally". But Saudi Arabia gets no scrutiny from
> >our government for that. Why? OIL.
>
> Also military bases in the region. IMHO, that's why Bush the 1st didn't
> take out Saddam Hussein when he had the chance. If we had done that, the
> Saudis would have said, "Thanks very much for ridding us of that mad dog.
> Now, go home." With Saddam in power, they needed us there to keep him on a
> short leash, so we were allowed to keep our bases.
>
> If we do go in a depose Saddam (excuse me, "enable regime change"), it will
> be very interesting to see what the Saudis have to say, once the mad dog is
> gone for good.
>
> --
> Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
> http://thegarret.info/
> http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/
Joseph
africa" (gold and diamonds, and various other less common metals).
2. You are not very well informed on where "we" meddle (the whole world
<can you point to ivory coast or gabon on a map? we have meddled in
those
places recently, not to mention indonesia and the Philippines). Guess
what US resources are there. (besides cheap labor)
3. see also pakistan and india.
4. i none the less agree about saudi arabia (except for explicit
economic
ties with the "W" administration).
Joseph
Henry Chang wrote:
>
<snip>
Joseph
delta N vs 10 years ago?
delta percent of population vs 10 years ago?
delta recognition by politicians vs 10 years ago?
Belf Da Dog
"Jerry Hollombe" wrote...
> >"Jerry Hollombe" a écrit dans le message news:
> >Xns92EAA42CC...@207.252.248.9...
> >
> >> Just a guess ... you've never lived in the USA, have you?
> >
> >You've never lived in Nigeria, have you?
>
> government.
>
>
> --
> Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
As long as the USA continues to savagely intrude in the affairs of other
countries and provide funds, technology, and tools (weapons, that is) for
the butchery of civilians, expect lots of criticism from all around the
world. Oh, by the way, the Georgia Straigh in Vancouver has honored
President Bush with the title of "Moron of the Year".
Belfagor da Dog
Jason Stefanovich
> 1. There are several other strategic resources in africa, esp. "south
> africa" (gold and diamonds, and various other less common metals).
Slightly OT, but diamonds are only "rare" because the DeBeers cartel has
been running a decades long misinformation campaign telling you so.
Cl.Massé
aunu51$9...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> But then the terrorists realized that there weren't any airliners yet,
> so they tried to crash a maglev train into the Eiffel Tower, but that
> didn't work out either.
Are they stupid! We have the fastest train in the world: the TGV, and
the best plane: the Airbus.
Henry Chang
>1. There are several other strategic resources in africa, esp. "south
>africa" (gold and diamonds, and various other less common metals).
Diamonds are not a strategic resource. Industrial diamonds are more useful
and less costly. Mined diamonds are mostly good for jewelry. Gold can be
had all over the world and it is also not strategic.
Strategic materials are ones vital for economic or military function.
>2. You are not very well informed on where "we" meddle (the whole world
><can you point to ivory coast or gabon on a map? we have meddled in
>those
>places recently, not to mention indonesia and the Philippines). Guess
>what US resources are there. (besides cheap labor)
>3. see also pakistan and india.
Who said anything about Pakistan and India? I was speaking of Africa - the
vast majority of the "meddling" in Africa has been by European countries.
>4. i none the less agree about saudi arabia (except for explicit
>economic
>ties with the "W" administration).
The Bush Administration's power play may well work in the short run, it is
the long run I worry about.
Lidell Hart wrote of Grand Strategy and the gist of it was that a Great
Power should always act in the highest moral fashion - it wins friends and
prevents potential enemies from materializing. Supporting regimes based
upon oil flow is not the highest moral standard. Supporting non-democratic
dynasties runs against the foundation upon which this nation was founded.
Henry
Gistak
sJ4Q9.59923$Zv4.4...@news2.telusplanet.net, "Belf Da Dog" <D...@Sniff.com>
wrote:
And again, in drumming a pet topic, you ignore the discussion at hand.
Claude isn't being accused of pontificating about US foreign policy. He's
being accused, accurately, of frequently posting and arguing about American
life WITHIN America. Something that he knows very little about.
P
PSmith9626
Gold is a highly strategic metal--it is crucially important for many chemical
and manufacturing processes.
The total world supply to date could be put into a cube fifty yards on a
side.
best
penny
test
zookumar
>"Cl.Massé" <clm...@online.fr> wrote in <aupuoa$r...@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>>"Jerry Hollombe" <poly...@pacbell.net> a écrit dans le message news:
>>Xns92EAA42CC...@207.252.248.9...
>>
>>> Just a guess ... you've never lived in the USA, have you?
>>
>>You've never lived in Nigeria, have you?
>
>government.
No single citizen of an empire that extends into the various
cultural, economic and political domains of another country is
required to "pontificate about their society, their people or their
government". The pontification is "fait accompli" by virtue of the
extensions. Having said that, it is merely equal play for a citizen
of the "extended" country to pontificate about the "extending" country
(specifically, about the society, the people and the government of the
extending country). I don't know if France is significantly extended
by the USA, but Claude would know better about that than either you or
I. Just like I would know better if Canada is extended by the USA
than either you or Claude. Conversely, you would know better than
either Claude or I if the USA is extended by either France or Canada,
respectively.
Of course, since the USA has a bigger track record of
extension than Canada (I can't say for sure about France), my
pontifications against the USA have a measure of credibility that
perhaps your pontifications against Canada do not have. At the very
least, we have equal credibility going either way. MO,OC.
To wit, you doth protest too much with your argument of "valid
pontifications".
-zookumar-
PSmith9626
Cute, I meant 1990's. .
best
penny
>But then the terrorists realized that there weren't any airliners yet, so
>they tried to crash a maglev train into the Eiffel Tower, but that didn't
>work out either.
However, there was a city wide monorail system in wuppertal germany in 1900.
It still is there and it is still in use.
Cl.Massé
at5dcs$k...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> My rommate's brother-in-law is a Muslim from Egypt, and I've known
> quite a few Muslim immigrants in this area. Granted, that's not a very
> big representation of the public at large, but I do know that the
> brother-in-law wants to return to Egypt, not because he doesn't like
> our country (as a matter of fact, he says he loves it here and wishes
> he could stay), but because of how their religion views the elderly
> and the children's responsibility to them. In his mind he *has* to
> return to take care of his mother.
I good reason for elderly and children not to emigrate, no?
Joseph
rest of the world makes more sense. "Christians" has been sending
missionaries around the world to convert the "locals". (from before
the crusades). It is the Islams/muslims turn now.
Joseph
PSmith9626
The supply of oil of the coast of West Africa exceeds that in the entire middle
east.
best
penny
Joseph
rate correlation (i explicitly avoided "prediction" here for clarity).
immigrants are much more ready to do any labor for a few coins than
locals addicted to handouts or suborned by <criminal> easy money.
(this may be USA specific).
I hereby announce a new term for the "Kenneth Lay" types,
"Gold collar crime". It is not a new class of crimes or new crimes
but a new term to aggregate the crimes with. include the culprits
for "market bubbles", "Love canal" and "Bhopal". the collar color is
used do designate the wealth levels and different techniques used, and
the magnitude (number of people hurt) of the consequences of the
crimes.
It should be handles similarly to the way "RICO prosecutions" and
"war crimes" are handled currently. In particular throw the miscreants
into jails that society's worst killers (manson, etc.) are in, for 90
years.
Joseph
Cl.Massé
"Jerry Hollombe" <poly...@pacbell.net> a écrit dans le message news:
Xns92F45E31A...@207.252.248.9...
> No, nor do I pontificate about their society, their people or their
> government.
You got the wrong thread. This one is entitled: "Nigeria and Miss
World".
zookumar
>lhchang.t...@adelphia.net (Henry Chang) wrote in
><3e0ca8cc....@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>>from Saudi Arabia, our "ally". But Saudi Arabia gets no scrutiny from
>>our government for that. Why? OIL.
>
>take out Saddam Hussein when he had the chance. If we had done that, the
>Saudis would have said, "Thanks very much for ridding us of that mad dog.
>Now, go home." With Saddam in power, they needed us there to keep him on a
>short leash, so we were allowed to keep our bases.
>
>If we do go in a depose Saddam (excuse me, "enable regime change"), it will
>be very interesting to see what the Saudis have to say, once the mad dog is
>gone for good.
Does anybody seriously deny that Saudi Arabia is an American
satellite republic? For that matter, *any* country that has a
significant American military presence (and that includes Germany)?
How much sovereignty does a country retain when another country has
its military embedded within the first country's borders?
Satellite republics come in all flavours, wot? I mean, you
have your banana republics, your oil republics, your shamed and tamed
republics (Japan and Germany). Pax Americana by quip, quiver, and
quasinym, if you will.
-zookumar-
PSmith9626
South africa is also the world's leading supplier of rare earths which are
critical strategic elements on which much high tech depends. Also of the
platinium-Osmium etc. group, which are
critical strategic metals. Not to mention a world leader in Uranium.
It is a wonder we haven't conquered it long ago.
best
penny
Joseph
but to many of us this is not only old news, but less than thrilling.
Joseph
Henry Chang
I don't know that I'd term Bush a "moron" but as arguably the Most Powerful
Man on Earth, he could be quite a bit smarter.
Henry
Torsten Gustafson
> > > You probably have no idea of what is a country where Muslims want to
> > > go.
> "Bill Vajk" <bill9...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message
> news: 3DFC96EF...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com...
> > A goodly number wanted to come here. I do agree that I have no idea
> > what or why you think they might prefer other countries unless they
> > are seeeking the dole.
> You surely have no idea of what is a country where Muslims want to go!
> The set of natural integers is unbounded from above.
Mecca, though mostly they can't afford the local cost of living
so for them it is a nice place to visit.
Reality sets limits after all.
gustafson
PSmith9626
But, not in the 1890's.
Claude, the german maglev is faster, no?
The TGV is a real long distance train, however.
The best plane in the world is the Aurora--because it the fastest, highest
flying and because I designed the principle that makes it work! The best
civilian plane in the world is the concord because it is fastest.
The Airbus is a good clone of our Boeing 74 series with small improvements. I
am Biased because my mother's brother was head of the original 707 project when
he was chief a-engineer for Boeing. ( His name was Winters.)
best
penny
I like some English Tea
I like the TGV.
What about you?---penny
( it is a song, Claude.)
RoyB
"zookumar" <zook...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Oz3Q9.232238$C8.6...@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
I love this group.
Roy
Joseph Weinstein
"Cl.Massé" wrote:
> "Feek O'Hanrahan" <feek...@XattbiX.XcomX> a écrit dans le message news:
> at5dcs$k...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
>
> > My rommate's brother-in-law is a Muslim from Egypt, and I've known
> > quite a few Muslim immigrants in this area. Granted, that's not a very
> > big representation of the public at large, but I do know that the
> > brother-in-law wants to return to Egypt, not because he doesn't like
> > our country (as a matter of fact, he says he loves it here and wishes
> > he could stay), but because of how their religion views the elderly
> > and the children's responsibility to them. In his mind he *has* to
> > return to take care of his mother.
>
> I good reason for elderly and children not to emigrate, no?
Or else he could bring them all here to take care of them according
to his beliefs. It sounds to me like he made an economic choice only.
If he could have afforded to bring them all here and care for them
he may well have preferred to do so, no?
Joe
Feek O'Hanrahan
>From what I understand, no. It seems that they (his family, esp. mother)
wanted to stay in their country because they were born and raised there (and
honoring the mother's wishes is pentultimate to him). Besides, an American
dollar goes a long way in many parts of the world.
I see it a lot around here, especially with Brazillians. I was talking to
one Brazillian guy the other day who said that with about US$1000, you can
live like an absolute king where he's from. Best hotels, best car rentals,
everything (and, no, that doesn't mean an old, beat up Pinto parked in front
of the decaying motel :). At least, that's what he and others have told me.
--
Left to themselves, thoughts will merely spin in circles, racing
themselves down a path they've already beaten.
- Tyler Trafford
Joseph Weinstein
Feek O'Hanrahan wrote:
Oh sure! I've lived in such places. I am only saying that *his* preference
for the U.S. might have been accomodated if he had the money to do everything
he felt necessary and there were no other conditions. If his family doesn't want
to move, and needs him there, he has to go back.
BruceS
Europe is famous for its great public transportation systems, though I'm
mildly surprised to hear of one so long-lasting. We're slowly working on it,
but there's a very strong tendency toward the personal vehicle (e.g. a
super-sized SUV with one person in it) in the U.S. Even many "poor" people
here have their own car, and claim to need it. Maybe we just need a $5
gallon price on gasoline to nudge people toward efficient public transport.
Play heck with a lot of other industry, though. Warehouses in the U.S.
typically have wheels now. Hats off to the Germans for keeping such a system
in operation for a century.
Cl.Massé
20021227231918...@mb-fy.aol.com...
> Dear Henry,
> The question was whether Europe would have to deal with Islamic
> terrorism if we didn't do pushy things for oil in the middle east. My
> answer was-->yes, and why.
You spoke of ordinary violence, not terrorism. If there is terrorism in
France, it is because of undercover action of the French government in
Islamic country, like in Algeria.
To speak quite generally, there is not the good boys in one corner, and
the bad ones in another one, who don't know something else than to
attack. Terrorism is a bad, but the actions that cause it is just as
bad, even if it is undercover or done by a superpower.
"La raison du plus fort est toujours la meilleure!"
(Jean de Lafontaine)
AF
"Gistak" wrote...
> snip
> of frequently posting and arguing about American
> life WITHIN America. Something that he knows very little about.
>
> P
Life in most other countries is decidedly worse than in the USA, but the
American way of life, as attractive as it is, can only be maintained in its
present form by massive exploitation of Third World resources (I've seen
this first hand, if you want to get me started). I went to an American high
school and am quite acquainted the mythological American mystique. As long
as the USA vigorously promotes the American way of life abroad -- promotion
takes many forms -- and massive quantities of international resources are
required by Americans to maintain their beloved way of life (producing the
largest per capita number of obese people in the world), expect
international feedback -- positive and negative -- on the issue. I'm a BIG
fan of American life as portrayed in ET and Bedtime For Bonzo, but I'm not
sure I'm a fan of the Third World living conditions of AMERICAN female
employees of Wal-Mart working WITHIN AMERICA:
www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021216&s=featherstone
Belf da Dog
BruceS
> dear claude,
> But, not in the 1890's.
Penny, your typos are getting better. My earlier bit was in response to your
> Remember that airliners were nearly steered in the Eifel Tower in the
> 1900's.
Claude apparently missed that. Nothing about France at all in my humor, just
noting the worldwide dearth of both airliners and maglev trains in the
1900's. As to making fun of France, that's just too easy, and I'm not
convinced that Claude is truly French anyway. BTW, how easy would it be to
"steer" the TGV into anything not already on its route?
Claude said
> >Are they stupid! We have the fastest train in the world: the TGV, and
> >the best plane: the Airbus.
1. Yes, Claude, they are stupid. We're talking about terrorists here.
Stupid, savage, despicable terrorists. Far-sighted though, to be making such
plans in the 1900's.
2. I don't know whether the TGV is indeed the fastest train, but the Airbus
is most certainly *not* the best plane. The C152 is far superior, being able
to utilize thousands of runways around the world that the Airbus can't, as
well as being able to fly at speeds and conditions under which the Airbus
stalls. I could go on, but I hope without hope that you get the point.
Henry Chang
From:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872964.html
Greatest Oil Reserves by Country, 2001
2001
rank Country 2001 proved reserves (billion barrels)
1. Saudi Arabia 261.7
2. Iraq 112.5
3. United Arab Emirates 97.8
4. Kuwait 96.5
5. Iran 89.7
6. Venezuela 76.9
7. Russia 48.6
8. Libya 29.5
9. Mexico 28.3
10. China 24.0
<snip>
This table shows quite clearly why we are involved so heavily in the Middle
East. Oil is the lifeblood of the Industrialized Economy.
Penny, I like it when you're wrong, I don't often get a chance to correct
you.
Henry