Computer geeks
Vince
http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~maratb/readings/NoSilverBullet.html
Tracy Yucikas
[[Brooks, Frederick P.,
"No Silver Bullet: Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering,"
Computer, Vol. 20, No. 4 (April 1987) pp. 10-19. ]]
seems to imply that the "...published just a bit over 25 years ago ..."
might be closer to 15 years..
There *are* however parts that particularly gratify me as reader
'dis'-ing the flowchart's claim to necessity was fun to read
"In the pitiful, multipage, connection-boxed form to which the
flowchart has today been elaborated, it has proved to be useless
as a design tool--programmers draw flowcharts after, not before,
writing the programs they describe. ..."
(( backs of napkins seem much better ))
ż was Star Wars' Yoda one of the authors ??
"More powerful workstations we surely welcome.
Magical enhancements from them we cannot expect. " :)
ty
"Vince" <vincest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.11.27.04....@hotmail.com...
Vince
> to quote the article's footnote::
>
> [[Brooks, Frederick P.,
> "No Silver Bullet: Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering,"
> Computer, Vol. 20, No. 4 (April 1987) pp. 10-19. ]]
>
>
> seems to imply that the "...published just a bit over 25 years ago ..."
>
> might be closer to 15 years..
>
>
It was the computer's fault. Keyboard Interface Error. I hit the 2 key,
and it failed to input a 1, like I meant...
> There *are* however parts that particularly gratify me as reader
> 'dis'-ing the flowchart's claim to necessity was fun to read
>
> "In the pitiful, multipage, connection-boxed form to which the flowchart
> has today been elaborated, it has proved to be useless as a design
> tool--programmers draw flowcharts after, not before, writing the
> programs they describe. ..."
>
> (( backs of napkins seem much better ))
>
>
> ż was Star Wars' Yoda one of the authors ?? "More powerful workstations
> we surely welcome. Magical enhancements from them we cannot expect. "
> :)
>
>
Mock the Jedi master, not, you will!!!!
You may like "Let there be light, UNIX style"
http://www.igs.net/~tril/humor/computer/letthere.txt
> ty
>
>
>
> "Vince" <vincest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2002.11.27.04....@hotmail.com...
>> Interesting in that it was published just a bit over 25 years ago.
>>
>> http://www-inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~maratb/readings/NoSilverBullet.html
>>
>>
--
-Vince
Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
Tracy Yucikas
> On Wed, 27 Nov 2002 10:20:37 -0800, Tracy Yucikas wrote:
>
> > to quote the article's footnote::
> >
> > [[Brooks, Frederick P.,
> > "No Silver Bullet: Essence and Accidents of Software Engineering,"
> > Computer, Vol. 20, No. 4 (April 1987) pp. 10-19. ]]
> >
> >
> > seems to imply that the "...published just a bit over 25 years ago ..."
> >
> > might be closer to 15 years..
> >
> >
> It was the computer's fault. Keyboard Interface Error. I hit the 2 key,
> and it failed to input a 1, like I meant...
>
>
> > There *are* however parts that particularly gratify me as reader
> > 'dis'-ing the flowchart's claim to necessity was fun to read
> >
> > "In the pitiful, multipage, connection-boxed form to which the flowchart
> > has today been elaborated, it has proved to be useless as a design
> > tool--programmers draw flowcharts after, not before, writing the
> > programs they describe. ..."
> >
> > (( backs of napkins seem much better ))
> >
> >
> > ż was Star Wars' Yoda one of the authors ?? "More powerful workstations
> > we surely welcome. Magical enhancements from them we cannot expect. "
> > :)
> >
> >
> Mock the Jedi master, not, you will!!!!
not to mock Yoda I would ... !
Fighting the evil one saw I in War of Stars, perhaps the "I"I.
not to mock even a few strive I, the pain of feeling know I well.
ty
Joseph
man-month" also by Brooks.
Joseph
Tom Spillman
Bullet". I used both as reading assignments in the Graduate level courses
in IT I taught.
I hope the students got one fundamental truth from the "Mythical Man Month":
"Adding people to a late project makes it later."
Regards...
Tom
"Joseph" <jose...@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:3DF99402...@bigvalley.net...
Vince
> There is a lot of truth to both "The Mythical Man-Month" and "Silver
> Bullet". I used both as reading assignments in the Graduate level
> courses in IT I taught.
>
> I hope the students got one fundamental truth from the "Mythical Man
> Month": "Adding people to a late project makes it later."
>
Sing it brother!!! And likewise, thrice-daily status reports on why you're late (or
why it's broken) and what you're doing about it! Though not to
as great an extent.
Or my favorite, completely defining the technologies/languages/etc to be
used to solve the problem before actually defining the problem....
--
PSmith9626
Right.
best
penny
Engineering managers love to plunge fall speed ahead without knowing where they
are going or what they are doing. That would require accepting confusion as a
natural part of thought.
They are trained to never accept confusion.
They are bean counters who want to count the beans--faster and faster. They
have no clue why they are doing it.
>Or my favorite, completely defining the technologies/languages/etc to be
>used to solve the problem before actually defining the problem....
Think about how much time and talent has been sucked up into the essentially
trivial computer world. Now, you understand why progress in science and
engineering has been slowed to a crawl in the last twenty years.
Yes, I know computers have made some contribution to science. CONCEPTS and
quiet thought would have done far more.
Bill Vajk
>vince wrote:
>>Or my favorite, completely defining the technologies/languages/etc
>>to be used to solve the problem before actually defining the
>>problem....
> Engineering managers love to plunge fall speed ahead without knowing where they
> are going or what they are doing. That would require accepting confusion as a
> natural part of thought.
> They are trained to never accept confusion.
> They are bean counters who want to count the beans--faster and faster. They
> have no clue why they are doing it.
This brings us back to the problems of central planning which is
changing our business-scape in unanticipated ways. There has always
been a philosophy in retail sales to not stock things that don't move
well. The bean counters in corporate management wrested control of the
stocking scheme once they were able to demonstrate they knew how to
control inventory costs.
The public went to places like Builder's Square because (initially,
at least) they had everything in one spot, a sort of guy's Sears of
the old days, with lumber as well, and not a lot by way of clothing.
Later, those of us who bought there were faced with an empty bin for
the first item we sought, something in very high demand, and would
get back into our car to buy from the competition. And we bought
*everything* on our shopping list from the competition because who
wanted to reward the guy who had the poor performance?
Pretty soon the computer showed drop in demand for everything in
inventory, the bean counters talked bankruptcy, and Builder's Square,
formerly the sweetheart in the K-Mart family of companies, disappeared.
Now K-Mart is in a similar predicament, and Sears not far behind. Ward's
spiraled down the tubes for several years before closing a while back.
Dominick's has been a highly successful local grocery chain since before
I came to Chicago. Safeway, a California chain, bought out the families
who owned Dominick's since inception. They promptly rehabilitated their
newly acquired chain at great expense and remapped their priorities,
California style. The deli part of the store grew fivefold, while the
fresh meat department shrank to about 20 feet of counter space. (By
comparison the competition has over 150 feet of counter in their meat
department and windows so the public can observe the cleanliness of
their meat cutting operation.)
We have a California store displaced into Illinois and operated remotely
by central planner bean counters in California who now see owning
Dominick's as a losing proposition. They've started laying off people
and closing stores. The chain is for sale. The bean counters haven't a
clue about demographics or local demand. They have put the proverbial
cart before the horse. Three years ago Dominick's was a highly
profitable enterprise. The demand for foodstuffs has not changed
appreciably. It is clear to me that the highly successfull Safeway
chain doesn't know what it is doing, at least here in Illinois.
The successful business strategies of these firms has fallen victim to
"solving the problem" without understanding it. As a consumer of goods
(we all are) I don't care what moves or doesn't. I try to deal with
a store which predictably has what I need. If they're out of something
now and again, well that's the nature of things. But when it becomes
a frequently repeatable experience, I'm shopping elsewhere.
Successful selling means meeting demand. Meeting demand requires slow
moving items be available as well as the fast moving ones. The powers
that be no longer seem to see beyond the numbers in their computers.
The computer doesn't know I left a store empty handed. The manager near
the exit door who asks if I found everything all right does though. In
businesses where he does the ordering I know I won't leave empty handed
the next time.
When I run into one who asks me "What else are you shopping for today?"
I'll know I've met an entrepreneur.
PSmith9626
Central planning is what destroyed the soviet union. I find it interesting that
we have adopted it at the corporate level.
This evening I went to pick up a book at a BORDERS. The temperature inside
was
about 40 degrees, and the place was empty of customers. Turns out the
temperature is set by central planners in Atlanta to be fifty five. Because of
sensor issues and the chill wind, it was between 40 and 30 in the store.
The business manager in Atlanta in charge of this obviously has never been
though a northeastern winter with his house freezing although the thermosat was
set at fifty. He also wasn't there to see the loss of customers. He is a bean
counter who will notice the lower heating cost.
best
penny
I walked right out and went home. I didn't buy the book.I will order it from
Amazon, just for spite.
>This brings us back to the problems of central planning which is
>changing our business-scape in unanticipated ways.
As we once discussed over stuffed cabbage. Very true. This country is now
experencing a recession--Gee, I wonder what the contributing factors might be.
( smile)
>The bean counters in corporate management wrested control of the
>stocking scheme once they were able to demonstrate they knew how to
>control inventory costs.
You can't find advanced math books at borders anymore. Thank goddess for the
princeton U store.
>We have a California store displaced into Illinois and operated remotely
>by central planner bean counters in California who now see owning
>Dominick's as a losing proposition. They've started laying off people
>and closing stores.
I blame this on Harvard business school. This attempt at a phoney academic
model of business ( based on bean counting) has caused more damage than a world
war.
> Meeting demand requires slow
>moving items be available as well as the fast moving ones. The powers
>that be no longer seem to see beyond the numbers in their computers.
Right.
>The computer doesn't know I left a store empty handed.
Exactly.
>When I run into one who asks me "What else are you shopping for today?"
>I'll know I've met an entrepreneur
And he or she will soon be fired.
PSmith9626
>"Adding people to a late project makes it later."
Excellent. Working on deadlines is a recipe for disaster.
best
penny
This is what caused the space telescope mirror problem, for example.
Bill Vajk
>bill wrote:
>>The computer doesn't know I left a store empty handed.
> Exactly.
>>When I run into one who asks me "What else are you shopping for today?"
>>I'll know I've met an entrepreneur
> And he or she will soon be fired.
Unless that's the owner or a relative. :-)
We have a local supermarket which is an independent with no ties
whatever. Their advertising is limited to providing the bags for
the annual regional Brandeis used Book Sale.
They are constantly crowded despite just having built a nice new
store across the street from the few dozen storefronts they had
worked out of for years. You can count on spending an easy 20%
more for your groceries there than at any other regional
supermarket.
I see four reasons for the success of the business. They always
have everything. There are no "house brands." And they load the
bagged groceries into the car for the ladies. Those things add up
to customer loyalty despite the higher price. That brings me to
the final reason, snobbery.
Me? I drive by the closest grocers to a full line discount supermarket
a few miles away. I grew up frugal but eating well, something I don't
want to kick, and enjoy my ~30% savings every week.
PSmith9626
Did you ever read " Skylark D." by E.E. Doc smith?
On one planet there are two species: Logical lizards ( who are super managers
for trivial tasks) and the hated but necessary humans who are illogical but
come up with ALL the new ideas.
The managers hate and despise and abuse the humans but they have learned that
they need them.
Managers as dinosaurs.
best
penny
If all the smart programmers were doing basic science and research engineering
instead of creating web intefaces, business accounting software and videogames
we would be a century ahead techically.
But, society ( read business) has opted for the lowest, most predictable,
common denominator tasks.
In the old days, they opted for innovation instead. They made plenty of money
doing it. In those days many companies were run by technical types with
imagination and not by dim, ant-eyed, harvard MBA's who care only about
accounting.
Vince
> dear vince,
> Did you ever read " Skylark D." by E.E. Doc smith?
I have not. I'll add it to my "to read" list. btw, have you read, and what
do you think of "the Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav? ( For those
unfamiliar, it compares quantum mechanics with eastern asian philosophy.)
I have to spend a few weeks at a military school fairly soon, and am going
to re-read it then. (On the grounds that it is as about as far as I can
get from the subjectmater of the course...). I liked it the first time
through, 5 years ago, but I have very little background in the field.
<snip>
>
> If all the smart programmers were doing basic science and research
> engineering instead of creating web intefaces, business accounting
> software and videogames we would be a century ahead techically.
True.
> But, society ( read business) has opted for the lowest, most
> predictable, common denominator tasks.
I dunno. I tend to think the line from the Billy Joel song "The good old
days weren't always that bad, today's not as bad as it seems" probably
applies.
I expect that as long as there have been people paying for other people to
ponder stuff that there has been the expectation that they were getting
something for thier money. The only difference, I expect, is in what was
seen as "return on investment".
> In the old days, they opted for innovation instead. They made plenty
> of money doing it.
I don't think it was "instead". I think it was probably with a longer-term
definition of "success". i.e. The people running/owning the business had a
vested interest in it's LONG-TERM success, not next thursday.
> In those days many companies were run by technical
> types with
> imagination and not by dim, ant-eyed, harvard MBA's who care only about
> accounting.
This I think is true, though not limited to the tech industries. I think
many of the problems, and much of the volitility of, our economy can be
traced directly to people who don't understand what the business does, but
do know how to make a spreadsheet dance. Others in this tread have got
that exactly right (safeway/borders/etc).
--
Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
PSmith9626
I don't like it. Quantum mechanics is more than words, it is a collection of
quantitative formulae that solve highly specific experimental problems to very
high measured accuracy.
Once again, I suggest " Vol 3, The Feynman Lectures of Physics" for a very
good intro to quantum mechanics.
On a non-mathematical but very clear level, I suggest the classic ( still in
print)--
" The Strange Story of the Quantum" by Banash Hoffman. I read this as a child
and it was life-transforming.
Throw the wu li master drivel out.
best
penny
I love Q.M. and I have practiced zen for twenty five years--the wu li book is
drivel.
>do you think of "the Dancing Wu Li Masters" by Gary Zukav?
> but I have very little background in the field
If you have calculus read feynman. If not, your time is better spent learning
calculus.
( Once again:" Quick Calculus--a programmed guide)
Tom Spillman
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021217054516...@mb-da.aol.com...
Deadlines are usually a requirement for any rational project (NOT research
projects!). All deadlines are not inherently bad. OTOH, arbitrary
deadlines which are set with little input from those knowledgeable about the
problem or little understanding of the requirements of the project will
certainly lead to disaster...
Regards...
Tom
BruceS
> On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 20:54:49 -0800, PSmith9626 wrote:
<snip>
> > If all the smart programmers were doing basic science and research
> > engineering instead of creating web intefaces, business accounting
> > software and videogames we would be a century ahead techically.
>
> True.
I totally disagree. For one thing, most of those doing web interfaces are
not exactly the most creative, gifted people. Most are nothing like what
real programmers would call "programmers" at all. Accounting, etc. software
gets a better bunch, but most of those I've worked with wouldn't really be
at home doing basic science and research. I'm sure that game engines engage
some very talented coders, though I understand that game makers hire a lot
of brain-dead automatons to build games on a few engines. The total
population of highly talented programmers, that would be useful doing
science, is pretty small. In any case, it could hardly have put us a century
behind to have had this population busy with other things for a few decades.
When was it that Gore invented the Internet, so that web interfaces could be
built? When did Id Software come out with the first decent game engine, that
nausea inducing precursor to Doom?
> > But, society ( read business) has opted for the lowest, most
> > predictable, common denominator tasks.
>
> I dunno. I tend to think the line from the Billy Joel song "The good old
> days weren't always that bad, today's not as bad as it seems" probably
Wasn't that "weren't always that good"? I can't *quite* recall what song
that is, and am going by my imperfect memory, so you may be right, I may be
crazy.
<snip...mostly agree, nothing to add>
> --
> Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
Good one.
"C + C" yields 2C, aka sight.
"C++ + C++" yields UB.
Let's see if this post makes it. I've had more failures than successes
lately, and have almost given up posting here.
PSmith9626
Both you and tom are absolutely correct.
best
penny
>>knowledgeable about the problem or little understanding of the
>>requirements of the project will certainly lead to disaster...
>
>That's the only kind of deadline you get, anymore. Marketing/management
>makes a ridiculous promise to someone about when the proj
yup.
Richard Russell Wood
Xns92E879833...@207.252.248.9>
>>You can't find advanced math books at borders anymore. Thank goddess for
>>the princeton U store.
>
>"Anymore?" I'm astonished that you ever could.
<remainder clipped>
There are (or at least, were) some Barnes & Noble stores that carried the
Springer-Verlag math books.
Cordially,
Richard
Feek O'Hanrahan
> psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote in
> <20021217191254...@mb-fy.aol.com>:
>
>> You can't find advanced math books at borders anymore. Thank goddess
>> for the princeton U store.
>
> my first choice for books. They can't make up their mind whether
> they're a book store, video store or music store and so do none of
> these things well.
They're also now not sure if they're a coffee lunge, too.
--
Left to themselves, thoughts will merely spin in circles, racing
themselves down a path they've already beaten.
- Tyler Trafford
PSmith9626
I know a lot of talented math and physics people who didn't get tenure because
no money was available and who ended up as programmers. I even know talented
people who opted to go that way after a year or two in basic research at low
salaries.
You have to look at this from the science people end, not from the
programmer end.
best
penny
>I totally disagree. For one thing, most of those doing web interfaces are
>not exactly the most creative, gifted people. Most are nothing like wh
Yes. Sure. But.
PSmith9626
Deadlines are only sensible for completely routine work. That does cover most
of engineering but not all.
And it covers little science of any importance.
best
penny
>Deadlines are usually a requirement for any rational project (NOT research
>projects!)
Correct. Also bad for very complex delicate projects doing new things where the
science is actually understood--mars probes, space telescopes, supercolliders
etc.
>Regards...
Always.
PSmith9626
One can plan them first, even years in advance.
best
penny
>Planetary projects tend to have deadlines set by orbital mechanics. Can't
>blame management for that.
>
Tom Spillman
research
> >projects!)
>
> Correct. Also bad for very complex delicate projects doing new things
where the
> science is actually understood--mars probes, space telescopes,
supercolliders
> etc.
>
Sorry to disagree. These are the very projects that NEED rational
deadlines. Projects of this sort usually require co-ordination with
multiple suppliers and sub-projects and there is usually a set order when
things need to occur for succesful completion. These were the very things
that lead to the development of the PERT planning methodology that was
developed by Rickover's team for construction of nuclear submarines. The
methodology does an excellant job in monitoring the progress of a project
and ensuring successful completion on-time and on-budget. Only small,
simple, relatively short one-man projects can get by without deadlines,
IMNSHO.
Of course, like anything else it can be misused. This misuse has lead some
to blame the methodology rather than their misuse and lack of understanding.
Regards (Always)...
Tom
> >Regards...
>
> Always.
>
John Gilmer
> dear tom,
>
> >"Adding people to a late project makes it later."
>
> Excellent. Working on deadlines is a recipe for disaster.
> best
> penny
Nonsense!
Deadlines are the ONLY way to get a large engineering effort completed.
>
> This is what caused the space telescope mirror problem, for example.
Nah! That was caused by carelessness. It is blamed on pennypinching
which caused some end to end testing to be cancelled but the error (in
determining the exact focal plane) was just a very, very stupid mistake.
It was just another sign that NASA can no longer justify its existence.
BTW: Had the problem been found BEFORE launch, it well might have caused
more overall delay than the deadline intense in orbit "fix."
The early years of the real space program had a few good lines. The best
one for the Space Telescope project would have been:
"Better is the Enemy of Good." Which translates to: "While you are
screwing around trying to make part A work a little better you are ignoring
part B which barely functions!"
In the early 80's I worked on a small piece of the Space Telescope. From
my own experience, NASA definitely had forgotten that "Better is the Enemy
of Good."
>
BruceS
When looking from that end of it, you see too many talented math & science
people going into programming. I can see that, and why it gives a completely
different appearance than looking at the programmer population and imagining
them working in math and science. I wonder, how many of these people are
doing web, or accounting and business work, and how many end up doing
something requiring more talent.
BTW, I should admit that, after years of real programming, I'm now doing web
stuff, with Java being my best tool. Maybe one day I'll be reduced to .NET,
or whatever M$'s next obscenity is. The incentive is a huge payment, held
just out of reach. I know what that makes me.
Vince
> "Vince" <vincest...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2002.12.19.05....@hotmail.com...
>> On Wed, 18 Dec 2002 20:54:49 -0800, PSmith9626 wrote:
> <snip>
>> > If all the smart programmers were doing basic science and research
>> > engineering instead of creating web intefaces, business accounting
>> > software and videogames we would be a century ahead techically.
>>
>> True.
>
<a reasoned total disagreement snipped. You may be right, I may be a
lunatic...>
>> > But, society ( read business) has opted for the lowest, most
>> > predictable, common denominator tasks.
>>
>> I dunno. I tend to think the line from the Billy Joel song "The good
>> old days weren't always that bad, today's not as bad as it seems"
>> probably
>
> Wasn't that "weren't always that good"? I can't *quite* recall what song
> that is, and am going by my imperfect memory,
That'll show me. You, sir are correct, it's "Keeping the Faith". 'Cause
the good ole days weren't
Always good
And tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems
http://www.billyjoel.com/discography/keepfaith.html
Oh well, I'm only human, I'm allowed to make my share of mistakes. <g>
> so you may be right, I may be crazy.
>
> <snip...mostly agree, nothing to add>
>> --
>> Polymorphism -- It's what you make of it.
>
> Good one.
> "C + C" yields 2C, aka sight.
> "C++ + C++" yields UB.
>
You may like this one
-"Teach a fish to man, and suddenly he's a UNIX expert."
> Let's see if this post makes it. I've had more failures than successes
> lately, and have almost given up posting here.
You get lucky sometimes.
Belfagor da Dog
> dear vince,
> Did you ever read " Skylark D." by E.E. Doc smith?
> On one planet there are two species: Logical lizards ( who are super
managers
> for trivial tasks) and the hated but necessary humans who are illogical
but
> come up with ALL the new ideas.
> The managers hate and despise and abuse the humans but they have learned
that
> they need them.
> Managers as dinosaurs.
> best
> penny
>
> If all the smart programmers were doing basic science and research
engineering
> instead of creating web intefaces, business accounting software and
videogames
> we would be a century ahead techically.
Nowadays, in the crappy IT market, many folks with computer science degrees
would be all too happy to construct programs for science and research
engineering, instead of being left high and dry as a result of a puncturing
of market confidence apparently due to ugly international conflicts.
PSmith9626
God save us from PERT charts.
Case by Case:
>-mars probes, space telescopes,
>supercolliders
>> etc.
Mars probes: turns out that the deadlines lead to confusing feet and meters and
the loss of a two billion dollar probe. Viking left the life on mars issue up
in the air, no-one thought to include a microscope. The recent space rover
project took the wrong data. More thought--less PERT.
Space Telescope: The deadline led to a poorly thought out testing procedure for
what became a three billion dollar defective mirror.
Supercollider: Great Pert Charts --too bad they were building before someone
realized that fire ants eat accelerator cabling.Loss: Five billion dollars.
best
penny
>Sorry to disagree. These are the very projects that NEED rational
>deadlines. Projects of this sort usually require co-ordination with
>multiple suppliers and sub-project
Spoken as a true manager.
PSmith9626
RIGHT!
Managers never seem to quite get the fact that creativity is not a factory
machine.
Or that creative people are not fungable, often don't fit the culture, and
generally resent being " managed" by their intellectual inferiors.
best
penny
>Message-id: <Xns92EAB3A6D...@207.252.248.9>
>PERT is useless for software projects where we are _always_ doing something
>new and creative that has never been done before.
Correct.
>People
>have been cracking their heads against the problem of predicting software
>development schedules for longer than I've been in the business (20+ years)
>and I know of no system for it that
Right.
John Gilmer
> dear jerry,
> RIGHT!
> Managers never seem to quite get the fact that creativity is not a
factory
> machine.
Oh, "Creativity?" Well, when you work on part of the large engineering
effort the best type of "Creativity" is that which helps meet the
requirement on schedule and on budget. Managers definitely approve of such
"creativity!"
> Or that creative people are not fungable, often don't fit the culture, and
> generally resent being " managed" by their intellectual inferiors.
Most hard working, productive, and "Creative" folks aren't even aware they
are being "managed." They are just getting their jobs done in an efficient
manner.
If you feel you are being "managed" by your intellectural inferior, perhaps
you should attempt to figure out the management goals are.
Of course, the possiblity exists that you have a "Peter's Principal" manager
in which case you should move on. But in most cases, one can find
"creative" methods of keeping management happy.
> best
> penny
>
> >Message-id: <Xns92EAB3A6D...@207.252.248.9>
>
> >PERT is useless for software projects where we are _always_ doing
something
> >new and creative that has never been done before.
>
> Correct.
>
> >People
> >have been cracking their heads against the problem of predicting software
> >development schedules for longer than I've been in the business (20+
years)
> >and I know of no system for it that.
The basic problem is the programming managers are former (and present)
programmers. And PROGRAMMERS LIE!
>
> Right.
>
>
Tom Spillman
> dear tom,
> God save us from PERT charts.
>
>From my original post:
"Of course, like anything else it can be misused. This misuse has lead
some
to blame the methodology rather than their misuse and lack of
understanding."
> Case by Case:
>
> >-mars probes, space telescopes,
> >supercolliders
> >> etc.
>
> Mars probes: turns out that the deadlines lead to confusing feet and
meters and
> the loss of a two billion dollar probe. Viking left the life on mars issue
up
> in the air, no-one thought to include a microscope. The recent space rover
> project took the wrong data. More thought--less PERT.
>
PERT in no way precludes the use of "thought" which, of course, is essential
on any successful project. From my origianl post:
"Of course, like anything else it can be misused. This misuse has lead
some
to blame the methodology rather than their misuse and lack of
understanding."
> Space Telescope: The deadline led to a poorly thought out testing
procedure for
> what became a three billion dollar defective mirror.
>
> Supercollider: Great Pert Charts --too bad they were building before
someone
> realized that fire ants eat accelerator cabling.Loss: Five billion
dollars.
> best
> penny
>
>
>
> >Sorry to disagree. These are the very projects that NEED rational
> >deadlines. Projects of this sort usually require co-ordination with
> >multiple suppliers and sub-project
>
> Spoken as a true manager.
>
What would you propose as an alternative? No co-ordiantion of multiple
suppliers and sub-projects? You make "manager" sound like a pejorative.
FWIW, I'm proud of my ability to bring in projects on time, within budget
that actually "do" what they were proposed to do.
Proper planning and scheduling should make the project work better not
worse. the examples you've quoted highlight poor management and poor
planning (hallmarks of most government projects) not problems with the
methodology. No methodology for planning and scheduling can save a project
with poor management.
Regards...
Tom
PSmith9626
That is how Barnes and Nobel started! They were originally a university and
scholarly bookstore located in manhattan at fifth ave and 18st street. I
remember when I first discovered them back in the sixties and bought such
things as "Electrodynamics of Continuous Media" by Lev Landau from them.
best
penny
>There are (or at least, were) some Barnes & Noble stores that carried the
>Springer-Verlag math books.
Those were the good old days. I still have my copy of C.B. Morrey's book that I
bought from them as a $2 remander. Later, it turned out they were involved in
some truck hijackings. That's New York.
PSmith9626
This is more you than the tools.
best
penny
>FWIW, I'm proud of my ability to bring in projects on time, within budget
>that actually "do" what they were proposed to do.
Yes. Ability is the key concept here.
> You make "manager" sound like a pejorative.
Usually, it is.
Tom Spillman
"Jerry Hollombe" <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92EAB3A6D...@207.252.248.9...
>
> PERT works well for things like construction projects (buildings, nuclear
> subs, etc.) where the technology is well understood, we have a lot of
> experience with it and are essentially doing what was done before, many
> times over.
>
> PERT is useless for software projects where we are _always_ doing
something
> before, we'd just copy it rather than waste time recreating it.) People
> have been cracking their heads against the problem of predicting software
> development schedules for longer than I've been in the business (20+
years)
>
I started in the business in 1963 and worked in it until I ran ran into some
health problems in December 1999, so I have seen a lot of problems in
setting effective schedules and a number of projects that failed. If you
want some good information on how to make projects work try "Managing the
Software Process" by Watts S. Humphrey of the Software Engineering Institue
at Carnegie Mellon University. He's written several other books which
expand on these ideas.
Probably the major problems (which is also addressed in the "Mythical
Man-Month" is the tendency to begin coding before the problem is well
understood. If you don't understand the problem, how can you estimate how
long it will take to solve it? Another problem is the fallacy that the
development time for a large project can be linearly extrapolated from the
time for a small project. The number of interactions between people can be
roughly approximated by n(n-1)/2 which will indicate how quickly the
problems in co-ordination grow. Poor project development methodology is
also common.
And most of all, the assumption that because a person is a good programmer
that they will be a good manager. The required skills are entirely
different. BOTH are in very short supply. I can count on the fingers of
one hand the really GOOD programmers I've met and likewise the really GOOD
managers.
Most fumble along and then wonder why their projects fail.
Enough ranting! You touched one of my hot buttons (obviously!).
Regards...
Tom
> --
> Jerry Hollombe, Webmaster
> http://thegarret.info/
> http://www.glaam.us.mensa.org/
>
PSmith9626
The carelessness was caused by deadline panic and competiton against the other
contracter to meet the deadline. Good and careful thought doesn't like
deadlines.
best
penny
>Nonsense!
>
>Deadlines are the ONLY way to get a large engineering effort completed.
Or destroyed,if it is a nontrivial project.
>> This is what caused the space telescope mirror problem, for example.
>
>Nah! That was caused by carelessness.
See above.
>While you are
>screwing around trying to make part A work a little better you are ignoring
>part B which barely functions!"
This is true.
Feek O'Hanrahan
>>> Message-id: Xns92EAB3A6D...@207.252.248.9
>>> People
>>> have been cracking their heads against the problem of predicting
>>> software development schedules for longer than I've been in the
>>> business (20+ years) and I know of no system for it that.
>
> The basic problem is the programming managers are former (and present)
> programmers. And PROGRAMMERS LIE!
My experience is that programmers are usually honest to a fault. I've seen
managers tell programmers to be quiet in meetings because they didn't want
the customer to find out certain bad things about the project.
PSmith9626
No.
> Well, when you work on part of the large engineering
>effort the best type of "Creativity" is that which helps meet the
>requirement on schedule and on budget. Managers definitely approve of such
>"creativity!"
They approve of obedience and conformity.
If creativity requires something else, they will fire it.
Ask the people here, who are creative.
best
penny
Henry Chang
>dear tom,
>God save us from PERT charts.
>
>Case by Case:
>
>>-mars probes, space telescopes,
>>supercolliders
>>> etc.
>
>Mars probes: turns out that the deadlines lead to confusing feet and meters and
>the loss of a two billion dollar probe.
I thought it was confusion between the metric newton and its English system
equivalent.
Henry
PSmith9626
The management goals are more usually tribal, ritualistic, power and control
oriented than anything else.
Ask the pool of creative people here ( and there are plenty) about their
experiences with managers.
best
penny
The best managers are those who just get out of the way of their intellectual
and creative superiors and devote their own efforts to providing their team
with resources as well as insulating their team from other managers.
Joseph
Naw, don't bother for me, i let the "illegitumus cabrorundum" but it
wasn't so long ago that i don't remember.
Joseph (engineer)
John Gilmer wrote:
> <SNIP>
> Most hard working, productive, and "Creative" folks aren't even aware they
> are being "managed." They are just getting their jobs done in an efficient
> manner.
>
> If you feel you are being "managed" by your intellectural inferior, perhaps
> you should attempt to figure out the management goals are.
>
> Of course, the possiblity exists that you have a "Peter's Principal" manager
> in which case you should move on. But in most cases, one can find
> "creative" methods of keeping management happy.
> <snip>
Joseph
a name for themselves by "abolishing waste" deleted from the testing
procedures a test that would have found the problem soon enough to
correct it. Another "waste stopper" reduces the resolution of another
test from "64 bits" to "32 bits" on the name of reducing cost. If
either "cost reduction" had not occurred the mirror problem would have
been
found early enough to correct it without disturbing the launch schedule.
The net
result is that "saving money today" ended up costing us almost 100 times
as much later, by fixing the thing "in orbit".
That is why "bean
counters" should be looked at as costly and poor performing predictors
of economic futures.
Joseph
PSmith9626 wrote:
>
> dear tom,
<snip>
John Gilmer
>
> They approve of obedience and conformity.
> If creativity requires something else, they will fire it.
> Ask the people here, who are creative.
I like to believe that there is a difference between "creative" and
"random."
John Gilmer
>
>
> OK, programmers lie, teachers can't teach....
>
> So who is competent besides you?
It's lonely at the top!
RoyB
"John Gilmer" <gil...@crosslink.net> wrote in message
news:3e065035$0$19...@dingus.crosslink.net...
>
>
> >
> >
> > OK, programmers lie, teachers can't teach....
> >
> > So who is competent besides you?
>
> It's lonely at the top!
>
Most Mensans I know realize how far it is to the top. It seems like it is
the normals who are convinced they are AT the top.
Roy
BruceS
Again, Penny suggests input from the MTM pool, and again I respond. Penny
must have some sort of eerie influence over me. She's a witch, I tell you!
After the first part, I may have responded contrarily, as I've had some good
managers. The second bit goes on to describe those good managers, so I'll
just agree instead. Those managers are out there, providing material
support, prioritization, insulation from annoying distractions, and very
occasionally, some incentive (we're pretty self-driven). I think a lot of
people have seen that Eastwood bit about "a man's got to know his
limitations."
John Gilmer
"Joseph" <jose...@bigvalley.net> wrote in message
news:3E064DBD...@bigvalley.net...
> No! What happened to the mirror is more complex. Someone out to make
> a name for themselves by "abolishing waste" deleted from the testing
> procedures a test that would have found the problem soon enough to
> correct it. Another "waste stopper" reduces the resolution of another
> test from "64 bits" to "32 bits" on the name of reducing cost. If
> either "cost reduction" had not occurred the mirror problem would have
> been
> found early enough to correct it without disturbing the launch schedule.
Yeah. And if someone had just checked the numbers the mistake would not
have been made. The testing involved was end-to-end on the completely
assemple ST. Any problems un-covered would have caused launch delays.
The time to prevent such "errors" is during design and contruction of the
components.
>
> The net
> result is that "saving money today" ended up costing us almost 100 times
> as much later, by fixing the thing "in orbit".
"Almost 100 times?"
Get real! The ST was designed to be serviced while in orbit. The
original scheme was for it to have a massive in-orbit overhaul after a few
years and then be taken back to earth for another set of improvements.
> That is why "bean
> counters" should be looked at as costly and poor performing predictors
> of economic futures.
The problem was that the "bean counters" weren't counting he right beans.
(Namely: they didn't perform the necessary "paper reviews" properly.)
The Space Telescope should be a source of SHAME for the proponents of "Big
Science." The project was poorly managed almost from the start. By 1982
there were signs of sloppy management and sloppy engineering all over the
place. The project should have been cancelled way back then.
>
> Joseph
>
> PSmith9626 wrote:
> >
> > dear tom,
> <snip>
> > Space Telescope: The deadline led to a poorly thought out testing
procedure for
> > what became a three billion dollar defective mirror.
BTW: the "defective mirror" was actually the SECOND defective mirror! The
project should have been cancelled back in 1982 or 1981. The only reason
it wasn't was that the RR administration wanted to show that it was still in
favor of supporting science.
> >
>
PSmith9626
Tom Spillman
> dear tom,
> This is more you than the tools.
> best
> penny
>
Tools can facilitate the process if used correctly. Just as a poor
schematic diagram of a circuit will lead to failure, so will a poor PERT
chart. I'm for getting all the help I can get.
> >FWIW, I'm proud of my ability to bring in projects on time, within budget
> >that actually "do" what they were proposed to do.
>
> Yes. Ability is the key concept here.
>
Agreed. A number of studies have shown that there is more than an order of
magnitude difference in programming abilities. If a project is planned
based on people at the high-sigma end of the "abilities" scale, no matter
what methodologies or methods are used, there is no chance of meeting the
schedule.
> > You make "manager" sound like a pejorative.
>
> Usually, it is.
>
I'm equally sure there is an order of magnitude (or greater!) difference
between good managers and poor ones. The Peter principle is alive and well!
Regards...
Tom
BruceS
I'm creative, and generally neither obedient nor conforming, and I've never
been fired for it. I haven't even been fired for my "attitude", and have had
incompetent managers back down from ridiculous positions when I shined a
light for them.
As to schedules and deadlines, my favorite incident was when a manager gave
me a list of about ten items that needed to be done ASAP, and asked how long
it would take. I picked out about four that I considered most urgent, and
said I'd do those, then tell him how long it took. 100% accuracy in
estimation. As has been pointed out elsethread, if the work had already been
done, I'd have just used it. Since it was new work, there was no accurate
way to determine cost ahead of time. At another job, I was in a Metrics SIG,
dedicated to finding methods of accurately measuring work done, as well as
estimating work to do. Our conclusion is that there are no good methods for
this. If someone comes up with a method of reliably predicting software
cost, without the estimating procedure costing a substantial portion of the
software cost, he will revolutionize software development. Also, using such
tools as performance metrics, the industry could rationalize compensation.
I'm not holding my breath.
Feek O'Hanrahan
I once had a manager like this. I remember people would fight tooth and nail
to get on his team. He did exactly like you said; devoting his efforts to
providing us what we need, and keeping us from the bloodthirsty claws of
other managers. Not too strangely, his projects were always the ones that
came in working and on time (barring any major unforseen complications,
obviously).
Unfortunately, he was promoted out of the way and the void was filled with
sludge-monsters concerned with their own power.
PSmith9626
I agree.
best
penny
>Most Mensans I know realize how far it is to the top. It seems like it is
>the normals who are convinced they are AT the top.
Which is the common problem with managers.
PSmith9626
Right.
>The problem was that the "bean counters" weren't counting he right beans.
>(Namely: they didn't perform the necessary "paper reviews"
Managers.
The mirror lab at Perkin Elmer ( now H-danbury) was on a 24 hour emergency
schedule because Nasa had them competing with Corning Glass to make the mirror
on low bid. My friend who worked at Perkin said that they were all one half
step from a nervous breakdown.
NASA's idea was to see who could get the mirror first and only then to pay
only the winner. But NASA didn't test the mirrors. They were under severe time
pressure themselves and were cutting corners ( much as the NASA managers were
who caused the Challenger disaster). In fact, some of them were the same
managers.
The Corning mirror was completed slightly later and it was fine. Too late.
At the time, NASA's shuttle program was being run by a former trucking manager
who gave a press conference a bit earlier describing the Shuttle as a truck and
as a
cargo plane--He talked all about reliable schedules and bang for the buck.
I count NASA's problems as starting with this. The shuttle was not a truck or a
cargo plane--it was an experimental vehicle and
Nasa was not Federal Express.
I chalk it up to business managers and their incompetence running a research
program in advanced engineering development.
p.s. R.R. did everything he could to cut NASA's budget and destroy it as a
civilian agency. He is famous for the quote "Let's get rid of NSF, if it isn't
useful to the DOD or private industry-- it is a waste of money." He had the
vision and imagination of a neanderthal.
Luckily, congress was smarter.
PSmith9626
Unless, only such people are hired.
best
penny
> If a project is planned
>based on people at the high-sigma end of the "abilities" scale, no matter
>what methodologies or methods are used, there is no chance of meeting the
>schedule.
> Just as a poor
>schematic diagram of a circuit will lead to failure, so will a poor PERT
>chart. I'm for getting all the help I can get.
If it is the right tool. For creative projects it is not.
Joseph
in my "chain of command" than people that knew their anus from an
excavation.
getting promotions since the 1950's had less to do with ability than
connections, it was a restoration to the 1880's since the roaring 20's
promoted so much "ability" (read kevin ley and market crashes).
sorry tom the two kinds of "ability" are not the same.
I know that you would not claim kevin's type of ability (bogus
accounting, etc.,)
But the position has the same name, regardless of the person.
Joseph
Joseph
BTW i am not in either count.
Joseph
Tom Spillman wrote:
> <SNIP>
PSmith9626
It was not in the design specs that the mirror would be defective.
>Get real! The ST was designed to be serviced while in orbit.
>The project should have been cancelled way back then.
But, in the end, it did fine.Not as well as if the mirror had been up to
spec--the fix was not perfect.
>The only reason
>it wasn't was that the RR administration wanted to show that it was still in
>favor of supporting science.
The mirror was an extension of the project for Keyhole 11 spy satellite mirrors
(done at the same lab, by the same people), various other aspects of the
project were relevant to testing certain aspects of space based laser weapons,
missile tracking and data transmission. And, it provided welfare for the
Companies who build space weapons like Rockwell etc., during a time of relative
peace.
Do you think it was an accident that the project was co-ordinated from Johns
Hopkins--whose applied physics lab was the major grantee for weapons research
in academia?
p.s. Here is an anecdote: I was at the party at Hopkins when the space
telescope institute was christened.The director ( now a Nobel prize winner for
pushing orbital astronomy) said that this instrument was the greatest
scientific development of the decade. I told my date:
" He means engineering, the science is yet to come.".
Joseph
programmers / software developers, but will hire 60 40,000 grade
programmers / software developers and expect the same results as
hiring the 12. they will never get it. if you hire 40,000 grade
programmers you will have to hire 450 to get the same productivity
and will not ever get the same quality. there is a pot full studies
to back this up. check www.acm.org or www.cs.ieee.org
Joseph
Joseph
have seen good and bad programmers. I am in the middle (perhaps lower)
Good programers don't have to lie. but they won't be pegged down by
their bosses unrealistic deadlines
Joseph
Jerry Hollombe wrote:
>
> psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote in
> <20021221185937...@mb-fy.aol.com>:
> There's all kinds of creativity. I've heard many a bad programmer whine
> about how coding standards and project constraints "limit my creativity."
> Hogwash. It takes Real(tm) Creativity to get the job done within those
> constraints -- and every project has constraints, standards or no.
Joseph
Joseph
Jerry Hollombe wrote:
>
> Joseph <jose...@bigvalley.net> wrote in
> <3E0A9369...@bigvalley.net>:
>
> >Hear, hear. I am not much younger and my count is similar.
> >BTW i am not in either count.
> >
> >Joseph
> >
> >Tom Spillman wrote:
> >> <SNIP>
> >> And most of all, the assumption that because a person is a good
> >> programmer that they will be a good manager. The required skills are
> >> entirely different. BOTH are in very short supply. I can count on
> >> the fingers of one hand the really GOOD programmers I've met and
> >> likewise the really GOOD managers.
> >>
> >> Most fumble along and then wonder why their projects fail.
> >>
> >> Enough ranting! You touched one of my hot buttons (obviously!).
> >>
> >> Regards...
> >>
> >> Tom
<snip>
> >>
> Could we be more careful with trimming attributions, please? There is
> nothing I wrote in the above post.
PSmith9626
Right. The idea is that the less capable people are less difficult to beat up
and easier to replace.
They still think that they are running an assembly line in a factory.
best
penny
Assembly lines were invented to replace skilled workers with semi-morons, who
could be treated poorly because they were in good supply.
Managers.
John Gilmer
"Jerry Hollombe" <poly...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:Xns92F0C6559...@207.252.248.9...
> psmit...@aol.com (PSmith9626) wrote in
> <20021226211743...@mb-mr.aol.com>:
>
> >Assembly lines were invented to replace skilled workers with
> >semi-morons, who could be treated poorly because they were in good
> >supply.
>
> astonishingly good wage at the time.
Yep! Moreover, these assembly line workers for several generations came
"down off the farm" and considered the line to be a great improvement over
farm labor.
The high wages were necessary to get the necessary concentration of workers
to the factory. When Ford ceased to be the "only game in town" as far as
mass production was concerned then the wages he paid became an important
component of his costs but when the competiion was relatively in-efficinent
individual craftsmen ...
Note the same thing happens wheneven a very successful business takes off.
The owners can afford to be very generous to the workers. This has
happened in all kinds of companies from Ben & Jerry's to Apple Computer.
There just isn't much business incentive to clamp down on the workers until
the competition starts to copy your techniques. It is then that the bosses
start to get nasty.
BTW: I love it when your liberal types refer to the workers as "morons."
It illustrates the contempt they have for regular folks.
Henry Chang
>
>BTW: I love it when your liberal types refer to the workers as "morons."
>It illustrates the contempt they have for regular folks.
If one's IQ is over 140 and the average is 100, then the IQ-100 person
seems moronic. An IQ-70 person is considered borderline retarded and that
seems moronic to the IQ-100 person.
Henry
PSmith9626
Not comparable to the wages of skilled craftsmen.
Twice the going rate for unskilled assembly workers.
best
penny
PSmith9626
Frankly, assembly line jobs were designed to be doable by semi-morons. People
of normal intelligence found them boring and degrading. But, the wages were
good for the uneducated farm people, so they put up with it.
Read the works of Taylor--the efficency expert.
best
penny
p.s. >BTW: I love it when your liberal types refer to the workers as
"morons."
>It illustrates the contempt they have for regular folks.
Not because I am liberal, but because I am
smart. I have a more than four sigma IQ difference from normal. That is more
than the difference between a mensian and a semi-moron.
I do hold stupidity in contempt.
Many line workers were not stupid, they were underemployed. Some of their
children or grandchildren became scientists or poets.
>Yep! Moreover, these assembly line workers for several generations came
>"down off the farm" and considered the line to be a great improvement over
>farm labor.
The measured IQ of most farm workers of this type was about 70, when the
testing was done in the 1920's. See Fredrick W. Taylor's books.
And "many" is different from "most".( See above).
p.s. Not all jobs in manufacturing were assembly line jobs. Many were still
done by skilled craftsmen of high intelligence. Machinists for example.
( There are good books on their techniques at Lindsay publications).
p.s. Put the screw in the hole. Turn the screw. Next piece.
( Not exactly a work of genius, is it?)
Adina Sobo
(PSmith9626) writes:
>Assembly lines were invented to replace skilled workers with semi-morons, who
>could be treated poorly because they were in good supply.
My first job was on an assembly line. There was absolutely no cross-
training, and since I did so well on their aptitude tests, I was immediately
put in charge of testing the relays that the company was doing final
assembly on. It was mind-numbingly dull for me, since it consisted
of placing the relay in a test socket, and hitting a pattern of floor pedals
while watching three green/red lights and an oscilloscope screen. The
same series of motions again and again and again and again and again.
I could have been replaced with a machine, but that would have cost more
to make than the set-up their tech had put together one afternoon when
he was bored. Even at that age, I was aware that most of the people
who were working the line with me were not Mensa material. They had
fairly narrow lives; operating their machines and going home to
entertain themselves. Some of them spoke enviously of their "smart"
(*their* word) relatives who had learned skilled trades -- carpenter,
plumber, mason, etc. I know enough of those jobs myself that I would
put them in a whole different category than factory piece-work. While
there are bound to be some very bright people in factories who didn't
have enough other opportunities to let them have more challenging
jobs, I always remember that the whole reason that Ford invented the
modern assembly line was because it was so much cheaper and
easier to train unskilled people to do a repetitive task than to train
an artisan who could make a car from start-to-finish.
- - - Adina
"The fox knows many things, but the hedgehog knows one great thing."
-- Archilochus (fragment 103)
http://members.aol.com/adinas/index.html
PSmith9626
Gilmer doesn't get it. He thinks he is at the ceiling of intelligence.
best
penny
rian
Ot supposedly took 6 months to learn it, after that you got paid by the
piece. You had to make the opening 1/10 of a mm open, and really shut
when shut. we had hooks, weights and good eyesight(if need be with
glasses! I was up to par (80 6 prong relays) in 2 months. After that I
was bored, before I held a race with myself
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"Adina Sobo" <adi...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20021227101409...@mb-ca.aol.com...
John Gilmer
"rian" <ri...@infocom.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:aui3t4$d...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> I did adjust relays for Philips. Their most skilled work for 3 months.
> Ot supposedly took 6 months to learn it, after that you got paid by the
> piece. You had to make the opening 1/10 of a mm open, and really shut
> when shut. we had hooks, weights and good eyesight(if need be with
> glasses! I was up to par (80 6 prong relays) in 2 months. After that I
> was bored, before I held a race with myself
One of the reasons the Bell System (when it still was a "system") finally
decided to go 100% electronic switching was that it was difficult to
obtain/train/keep folks who could adjust the relays properly.
(For those who don't understand the problem: telephone relays tended to
have LOTS of contacts. There were weird combinations of "Make before
Break" or "Break before Make" plus sensitivity adjustments on dial pulse
detecting/repeating relays plus variations like slow release and relays with
several coils for either balancing or for multiplexed signaling.)
For you EEs out there who thing you are smart: try to design an
"originating register" which has the job of collecting a 10 digit dialed
number. Of course, you use RELAYS only.
Tom Spillman
> Ya know, it is weird, management won't hire 12 120,000/yr grade
> programmers / software developers, but will hire 60 40,000 grade
> programmers / software developers and expect the same results as
> hiring the 12. they will never get it. if you hire 40,000 grade
> programmers you will have to hire 450 to get the same productivity
> and will not ever get the same quality. there is a pot full studies
> to back this up. check www.acm.org or www.cs.ieee.org
>
> Joseph
>
You are correct, unfortunately. It is a fact of life that managers are
often compensated in poorly run companies by the number of people who work
for them rather than the results they achieve versus the cost of achieving
those results. A manager who has 60 people reporting to him has to be
higher on the totem pole than one who only has 12.
There are a few companies who pay for performance rather than appearance of
performance, but they are few and far apart....
Regards...
Tom
PSmith9626
One way: First design a relay based NAND gate. This is easy. Then apply the
standard Nand gate synthesis algorithm to the required truth table.
It is also easy to convert and deconvert the decimal number to binary. Again,
that circuit is easy to design with the standard NAND gate synthesis algorithm
from its truth table.
Thus, the problem is exactly the standard one used in standard computer
design, once you have the relay NAND gate. Designing that NAND gate is so
simple a small child can do it: Relays are just controlled switches.
You can do each of these designs with standard software in maybe three or
four secs.
best
penny
>For you EEs out there who thing you are smart: try to design an
>"originating register" which has the job of collecting a 10 digit dialed
>number. Of course, you use RELAYS only.
Relays are easy. There are after all just a controlled switch.
Feek O'Hanrahan
>
> Read the works of Taylor--the efficency
> expert.
Taylor was a strange control freak.
PSmith9626
Yes. They would have done better if they had just used many more simple relays
as NAND gate elements. This was first understood by Claude Shannon.
But, by then, it was also clear that electronic switching was better anyway.
best
penny
>lephone relays tended to
>have LOTS of contacts. There were weird combinations of "Make before
>Break" or "Break before Make" plus sensitivity adjustments on dial pulse
Major Arcana!
Building a relay based simple computer, often using a telephone dial as input
device was a childhood rite of passage for electronic kids of my generation.
For nostalgia one can look at the old "Amateur Scientist" section of Scientific
American--now available on CD.
Five years later, we were building chip based computers, with surplus from
Cortland Street. That is the speed of progress.
Anyone remember the Altair 8080?
" Gee, remember when cars had wheels?"-- Penny
Tracy Yucikas
"PSmith9626" wrote
>
> Building a relay based simple computer, often using a telephone dial as
input
> device was a childhood rite of passage for electronic kids of my
generation.
dear penny,
my very first "real fix" in navy sojourn happened 2nd day on first ship
when a bunch of techies were wondering why the number they dialed
didn't ring the phone they "aimed at" (shipboard internal communication,
not "ma bell" ) ... took a little piece of finefine sandpaper and burnished
contacts ... woo hoo !; (properly speaking the job wasn't 'mine' but did it
anyway)
peace,
tracy
PSmith9626
Companies are run by managers. It the upper level managers that are the problem
here.
This supports my comments on managers.
Generally, the higher the manager is , the more his training is in business
and the less it is in technology. That is--the bean counters win.
The company loses.
best
penny
>There are a few companies who pay for performance rather than appearance of
>performance, but they are few and far apart....
As I said.
Henry Chang
The 2 people I know who are very high up in tech companies were trained as
engineers - one is a CEO and one is Manager of Operations. The CEO started
his firm, the Manager of Operations was promoted straight from project
engineers over a few layers of management into his current position.
The current tech economy is so competitive that traditional "glass
ceilings" are falling by the wayside in mid-size tech companies. They don't
care if you're female, they don't care if you're not white as long as you
can do the job.
The FORTUNE 500 companies and the non-techs still seem to be run by the old
boys network. I reckon (at least I hope) that will change with time.
Henry
Tracy Yucikas
> lhchang.t...@adelphia.net (Henry Chang) wrote in
> <3e0f4dfc....@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>
> >The current tech economy is so competitive that traditional "glass
> >ceilings" are falling by the wayside in mid-size tech companies. They
> >don't care if you're female, they don't care if you're not white as long
> >as you can do the job.
>
> and you might as well be dead.
>
I used to suspect that this was true.
The last nine months have confirmed it a bit more.
- - -
tracy
Tom Spillman
> dear tom,
> Companies are run by managers. It the upper level managers that are the
problem
> here.
> This supports my comments on managers.
> Generally, the higher the manager is , the more his training is in
business
> and the less it is in technology. That is--the bean counters win.
> The company loses.
> best
> penny
>
I expect to have about as much success in this discussion as I have had in
attempting to convince you that socialism is not a viable method of
governance. However, I'll mention a few things anyway.
You have a very dim view of managers. I think this goes without saying.
I'll agree that there are a number of managers that deserve it, whether they
are in a large company or running a department, school or university, where
I have also run into a number of poor managers.
I recognize that my experiences are just an "experiment of one", but, for
me, it is illustrative. I got my first management job because I was the
best in the group and a manager was needed, I had limited training in
management and I quickly found that it was NOT an intuitive skill. I made a
number of mistakes. Luckily I had a number of experienced people working
for me who kept me from getting into too much trouble. This process of
promoting unqualified managers often happens, since many do not recognize
that management is a discipline in itself. When I had the opportunity, I
enrolled in the MBA program at NYU, where I worked with a number of good
people like Deming and Peter Drucker. I finished in two years with a thesis
while working full time to support a wife and three children. This degree
later helped me considerably in my professional career.
As I mentioned before, I became contracted faculty after a couple of years
as an adjunct professor in the MBA program at a local university. Many of
my students had similar experiences to mine. They found that skill in a
technical area did not automatically translate to skill in management.
Since Austin is currently one of the centers of technical activity in the
US, the great majority of my students were technical people, primarily
engineers or scientists from a variety of disciplines. A number of them
were chip designers from AMD or IBM. A few were even mathematicians!
This is not a new trend. It started sometime before I went back to school
in 1965. Unlike most graduate schools. the MBA program at the Stern School
of Management at NYU had the great majority of its classes in the evening
rather than during the day, as is traditional. Just as I brought in a
number of local senior management to talk to my classes, my professors did
the same thing. FWIW, my area of concentration at NYU was Quantitative
Business Analysis or the application of mathematics to business.
While there is no doubt that there are still some managers who deserve your
pejorative comments, the majority of senior managers do not. I do NOT agree
that the problem is the managers at the top, as you state. More often than
not, it is the ineffective middle manager who causes the problem. In Mensa,
many of us take some pride in being in the upper 2%. Consider a major
company like GM or GE with 400,000 plus employees. Further, consider the
top five managers in the company. They make up 0.00125% of the employees.
With all of the competition to reach this level, you can be sure that they
are NOT dummies. I have met a number of them and can attest to this. While
the recent scandals cast doubt on management, again out of 10,000
corporations in this country, the total that have been accused is less than
0.025%.
Ineffective middle managers who are on the way up, OTOH, may take a while
before they're caught (remember the Peter principle?). Eventually they will
be caught, but often cause problems before they are dismissed. FWIW, I've
seen more companies correct the problems with poor management than I have
seen universities take action with the same problem! After all, the
companies have to report to the stockholders. Universities don't seem to
have such an effective control mechanism.
Just my $0.02...
Regards...
Tom
Henry Chang
>lhchang.t...@adelphia.net (Henry Chang) wrote in
><3e0f4dfc....@chicago.us.mensa.org>:
>
>>The current tech economy is so competitive that traditional "glass
>>ceilings" are falling by the wayside in mid-size tech companies. They
>>don't care if you're female, they don't care if you're not white as long
>>as you can do the job.
>
>Unfortunately, they care very much if you're over 40 years old. Over 50
>and you might as well be dead.
I know another computer programmer who got on with a dot com start up at
41. They'll take on older people who keep their skill set upgraded.
The smarter companies realize it can be effective to mix the zeal of youth
with some experience. The older programmers can be useful in keeping groups
from making mistakes.
Henry
Joseph
advantage, i have actually seen xy stepping relays in action. (two
digits)
How about you John? (also, realistically, you only had to store 5
digits
the total number of lines in a large "local exchange" <NY> at the time).
Of course there weren't that many transcontinental or transatlantic
paths (channels / voice links) at the time.
Joseph
PSmith9626
Oh, it is worse in academia.
best
penny
Joseph
other could match. He hired from the "top of the labor barrel" because
his system lowered costs so much from the craftsmen approach. The
result
gave him a quality edge that accountants and manufacturing engineers
still do not properly respect. The space program demonstrated the
corollary issue, scientists are not temperamentally suited to
"production consistency" needed for "engineering artifacts".
(OK a marginally appropriate over aggregation of "first of this"
mentalities and "just another of these" mentalities. perhaps there is
two steps from "better" scientist, to engineer, to clerk.)
Joseph
Joseph
action they handle two decimal digits of information in the pulse
dialing
system. doing the equivalent for tone dialing requires a lot of gates.
nowadays several lines are handled by just one cheap ($3) mass produced
digital signal processor (DSP), the xy relays never had so low a price
tag.
Joseph
Joseph
management (except for CFO'n and comptrollers), engineers and scientists
usually make lousy managers/top-management. in my general experience
it is the politicians (regardless of *education*) that get promoted and
their track record at making correct decisions is demonstrated as poor.
Please do not get me wrong, i have been very lucky in my career and had
no less two excellent supervisors (both promoted even further). They
were however the exceptions in a 1 in 10 ratio.
Joseph
Joseph
170 persons are "arrogant" if they consider persons of 100 IQ the same
way. the relative difference is the same though. The biggest problems
seem to occur with IQ 120 meeting IQ 150+, the 120 is just bright enough
that real challengers are relatively rare, and when someone comes along
that can "make them seem like idiots" (30 points) they freak.
Joseph
PSmith9626
Just like academia.
best
penny
>Unfortunately, they care very much if you're over 40 years old. Over 50
>and you might as well be dead.
Luckily, I have tenure.
PSmith9626
I read an article about this and I agree. It is an industry run by very young
managers and they generally despise "old" workers.
Such is capitalism, one reason that I am a socialist.
It is naive to expect that a free market will be guided by an invisible hand
to ensure that good workers will not be made unemployable by irrational
predjudice.
best
penny
>I haven't looked for work since, but friends in my age group
>-- many very highly skilled -- are definitely struggling.
This is correct. It is very true in the computer industry and has always been
true in science.
Historically, much of the best science and math was done by older scientists.
Newton's Principia in his late forties, general relativity in Einstein's
forties. But, there is the general idea that only young ones make
breakthroughs. This provides huge job discrimination for older scientists and
mathematicians.
" Age is a physicists fever Chill
Better dead at forty
than living still"--Hans Bethe, as a young man.
( who was still doing first rate nuclear physics in his nineties!)
PSmith9626
I know. The Nand gate algorithm is anything but optimal. But, it is trivial and
Gilmer asked for a solution--not an OPTIMAL solution.
best
penny
>this is true but not very relevant, i have seen xy stepping relays is
>action they handle two decimal digits of information in the puls
Of course.
PSmith9626
As far as I know, production in the Space program was done by the usual
industrial people in the usual industrial companies.
Not by scientists.
best
penny
>space program demonstrated the
>corollary issue, scientists are not temperamentally suited to
>"production consistency" needed for "engineering artifacts".
Of course not.
PSmith9626
But very influential in manufacturing.
best
penny
PSmith9626
Exactly. And the IQ 130 types don't seem to understand that an IQ 180 person is
not
just a faster and more organized version of themselves.
In fact, their entire world view and perspective will be different. Since the
valued coping tools of the IQ 120 person are not necessary for the IQ 180
person, and since their underlying motivations and goals in life will be
incomprehensible to the IQ 120 person; the smarter one will be regarded as
backward, weird, or antisocial.
best
penny
>Nicely said. IQ 30 persons are considered "mental vegetables" but IQ
>170 persons are "arrogant" if they consider persons of 100 IQ the same
>way. the relative difference is the same though.
>The biggest problems
>seem to occur with IQ 120 meeting IQ 150+, the 120 is just bright enough
>that real challengers are relatively rare, and when someone comes along
>that can "make them seem like idiots" (30 points) they freak.
Absolutely!
Feek O'Hanrahan
Hugely. From what I know of him, I'd say he's probably one of the largest
factors in the attitudes prevailing in manufacturing (and business environs
in general) today.
Prigator
> But, there is the general idea that only young ones make
>breakthroughs. This provides huge job discrimination for older scientists and
>mathematicians.
There is indeed such a general idea among the young ones. Any 15 year old is
convinced that he has broken new ground far beyond what his dumb parents can
conceive. This is a programmed gimmick of evolution - nature's call to leave
the nest. This conviction, that older people must be left behind, fades only
gradually through his 30's.
Why can't this be taught in high school? Would they hear it?
Doug Chandler
Jerry Hollombe
> Nicely said. IQ 30 persons are considered "mental vegetables" but IQ
> 170 persons are "arrogant" if they consider persons of 100 IQ the same
It's not a linear scale.
PSmith9626
Joseph Weinstein
PSmith9626 wrote:
> Dear Jerry,
> I read an article about this and I agree. It is an industry run by very young
> managers and they generally despise "old" workers.
> Such is capitalism, one reason that I am a socialist.
Hi Penny. I don't immediately follow this. For one, I don't see how socialism
per se prevents those in political power from unfairly and irrationally discriminating
against a particular group without political power.
> It is naive to expect that a free market will be guided by an invisible hand
> to ensure that good workers will not be made unemployable by irrational
> predjudice.
Actually, I believe it is precisely capitalism and competition that will automatically
favor companies that are run under a meritocracy, compared to any that are
inefficiently run by management that doesn't allocate power to the most
capable. The better-run company will produce it's goods and services cheaper
and or more responsively to the customers, who will vote with their dollars.
No legislation or centralized external control is necessary, IMHO. The youth vs.
age attitude flourished during the 'new-economy delirium' of the 90's, where
'old-economy' ideas like "a business must have a predictable path to profitability"
were assumed passe. Most of the companies founded by such young new-age
thinkers are the ones that died en masse in the .com meltdown. In fact I hear
that companies are preferring grey-hairs nowadays for the real experience they
have. It is the return to capitalistic basics (profit) that is making this change of
heart, not extra laws or any central commitee.
Joe
Catharine Honeyman
> There is indeed such a general idea among the young ones. Any 15 year
> old is convinced that he has broken new ground far beyond what his dumb
> parents can conceive.
I want a 15 year old to come over here and show me how to use my frickin'
MP3 player.
> Why can't this be taught in high school? Would they hear it?
No. It is too ingrained.
--
Aloha,
Catharine
titubant sed non decidunt wiblia
rian
make that much more difference, where I am a scatterbrain anyway. I hate
it when I do not understand things right away! And I get confused with
math stuff with too many variables.
--
Cole's Axiom: The sum of the intelligence on the planet is a constant.
The population is growing.
Rian
"PSmith9626" <psmit...@aol.com> schreef in bericht
news:20030101233558...@mb-ct.aol.com...
PSmith9626
Now that was punny.
best
punny
PSmith9626
He was addressing deviation from the mean in a normal distribution.
If IQ is actually normally distributed, Joseph is correct.
best
penny
> way. the relative difference is the same though. ...
>
>It's not a linear scale.
But, it is symmetric-- except--actually--the normality is artifical ( the
central limit theorem does NOT apply) and the high IQ tail is actually much
flatter. The normality is
put in by assumption.