Just joined
Janie
frustrated trying to decide what my son should or shouldn't be doing. He
tested in the very superior range on an I.Q. test, but can't find his shoes
underneath his own feet. I keep hearing about all of the "gifted" children
who are doing calculus in fourth grade or reading high school science books
in third grade. My son is very smart and picks up subjects quickly. Give
him a computer program and he will learn tons! He is in second grade this
year and finished a third grade computer game before Christmas, but he isn't
obsessive about anything except Playstation games. Of course, his teacher
insists he has ADHD and she worries because he sits by himself in the lunch
room playing games using just his hands and his imagination. I have been
trying to fight the school to give him more to do and to challenge him while
changing his environment during the week to keep him interested, but then he
gives me reasons to think "gifted" isn't the correct term for him because he
doesn't process simple instructions or use common sense half the time, and
he certainly is above his fellow students, but not like the stories I
continue to hear. Is there more to being gifted than just a high I.Q. that
I should try to assess before continuing to fight with his teachers, or are
there other kids out there that are closer to my son's profile?
I would love some help because I wonder if I am doing something wrong with
him sometimes!
Thanks
Janie
Cleo
wrote:
Your son sounds very much like my daughter. She's 9, and she reads
three years above her grade level, but can't memorize math facts.
She's very imaginative, but can't follow directions. Her 2nd grade
teacher recommended a book to me that seemed to have been written with
her in mind: Right Brained Children in a Left Brained World (Jeffrey
Freed, M.A.T., and Laurie Parsons) about creative, non-linear-thinking
kids and how school systems were not designed with them in mind. I
found it to be very helpful in understanding my kid. You may want to
skim it at the bookstore and see if it pops for your son as well.
If I had to give suggestions, I'd say 1) advocate for your kid. Make
sure that the teachers know what kind of learner your son is, and that
they do as much as they can to address his particular learning style;
2) remind him that he's a very smart kid. My daughter seems to think
she's not very smart because she's not a math genius like many of her
gifted classmates, and yet she can solve visual problems instantly,
with no idea how she figured it out, reads novels with nearly perfect
comprehension, and can form very persuasive arguments about her
political views (which often differ completely from her dad's and
mine!); and 3) love and support his uniqueness. We're encouraging my
daughter to try dramatics and theater, because of her love of
pretending and imagining. We're not invested in an acting career, but
if she finds something there that she loves and at which she can feel
successful, it'll stay with her for her whole life.
Just my $.02.
Cleo
Dan and Dianne
What is he doing when you desire him to "process simple instructions " ?
Isn't "common sense" actually learned ?
Dan
Janie <jasona...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:BoKp8.5927$ml2.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
Suzie Eisfelder
This sounds just like my grade 9 daughter. She's just been tested and
is having problems at school relating to other children her age. I
don't know what to do as yet.
Suzie
Ray L
Suzie Eisfelder <suz...@techno.net.au> wrote in message
news:3CA9A8E8...@techno.net.au...
>
> This sounds just like my grade 9 daughter. She's just been tested and
> is having problems at school relating to other children her age. I
> don't know what to do as yet.
Her chronological age is different from her mental age. Find others
like her and get them together.
Social skills should also develop faster in a gifted child, unless she is
placed among other children who also lack social skills (blind
leading the blind). Adults must teach social skills, since children
haven't learned them yet.
T. Scott Frick
> like her and get them together.
Almost everyone's chronological and mental ages differ. Isn't it a typical
life goal to find people who are like us? So, this applys to everyone
regarless of aptitude. It is more of a personal goal rather than one a
parent can have for a child.
> Social skills should also develop faster in a gifted child, unless she is
> placed among other children who also lack social skills (blind
> leading the blind). Adults must teach social skills, since children
> haven't learned them yet.
Social skills develope with continued contact with other people. Adults
can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach the
child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim each
other accidentally or on purpose.
Ray L
T. Scott Frick <n...@na.net> wrote in message
news:a8pq6l$m...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> > Her chronological age is different from her mental age. Find others
> > like her and get them together.
>
> Almost everyone's chronological and mental ages differ. Isn't it a
typical
> life goal to find people who are like us? So, this applys to everyone
> regarless of aptitude. It is more of a personal goal rather than one a
> parent can have for a child.
Yes, but people who are of average IQ have a much easier time
finding others at their level.
> Social skills develope with continued contact with other people. Adults
> can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
> children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
> teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach the
> child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim each
> other accidentally or on purpose.
Children *don't* get along. They fight and tease one another
relentlessly, unless adults are around. They form gangs and
cliques. Children are not civilized, and are not qualified to
be teachers to other similar children. Mature leaders must be
around at all times in order to set a good example.
Adult social skills develop with continued contact with adults.
T. Scott Frick
> finding others at their level.
I don't want to speak for anyone elses time finding their place in the
world. Average, above or below, it is never easy.
> > Social skills develope with continued contact with other people. Adults
> > can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
> > children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
> > teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach the
> > child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim each
> > other accidentally or on purpose.
>
> Children *don't* get along. They fight and tease one another
> relentlessly, unless adults are around. They form gangs and
> cliques. Children are not civilized, and are not qualified to
> be teachers to other similar children. Mature leaders must be
> around at all times in order to set a good example.
>
> Adult social skills develop with continued contact with adults.
Yes, a child's social skills with adults develop with contact with adults.
But, the child's social skills with other children develop with unsupervised
or mildly supervised contact with other children.
I really think you over estimate the ability of teachers to teach. Setting
an example is fine, expecting it to be followed is another thing. Adults
and children have a similarly hard time following examples. And children do
not adult certification to socialize other children. They do it naturally
constantly.
Forming gangs and cliques is part of what people learn when they socialize.
The other part is learning to avoid certain gangs and cliques.
Lastly, I can't follow you down the "Lord of the Flies," "children are not
civilized," path you seem to be blazing. Lots of children do get along.
Not only do they get along, but for the most part, they do so without
supervisory help.
Jayne Gaunt
that smart she can make her own decisions. My parents pushed and pushed and
I skipped a total of 5 years of school over the duration of my education.
I'm 36 now and can now, finally, say that my life is back on track. I have
an IQ of 190+ and now find myself in a pleasing position in life, but can't
remember ever having a childhood.
Leave her alone. It's not your life to mess with.
"Ray L" <rayln...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a8o2kj$q...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
T. Scott Frick
> styles. Based on the description, using the middle two letters from
> the Myers-Briggs scale, I suspect your son may be "NF". NF's are
> creative, hate repetition, and are the least suited to traditional
> education techniques. Also, they are sometimes mistaken for ADD /
> ADHD.
>
> For one place try:
> http://www.cognitiveprofile.com/
Perhaps this is obvious to someone else, but why are the two outer letters
not used? Where did the (EI) and (JP) parts go?
T. Scott Frick
> that smart she can make her own decisions. My parents pushed and pushed
and
> I skipped a total of 5 years of school over the duration of my education.
> I'm 36 now and can now, finally, say that my life is back on track. I
have
> an IQ of 190+ and now find myself in a pleasing position in life, but
can't
> remember ever having a childhood.
> Leave her alone. It's not your life to mess with.
Please don't take offense, but what do you mean by not having a childhood?
Suzie Eisfelder
>
> T. Scott Frick <n...@na.net> wrote in message
> news:a8pq6l$m...@chicago.us.mensa.org...
> > > Her chronological age is different from her mental age. Find others
> > > like her and get them together.
This is really difficult as there are very few children like her
around. This is my first attempt to try and find people of her own
abilities for her to (hopefully) socialise with).
> > Almost everyone's chronological and mental ages differ. Isn't it a
> typical
> > life goal to find people who are like us? So, this applys to everyone
> > regarless of aptitude. It is more of a personal goal rather than one a
> > parent can have for a child.
>
> Yes, but people who are of average IQ have a much easier time
> finding others at their level.
That's only because there are so much more of us around.
> > Social skills develope with continued contact with other people. Adults
> > can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
> > children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
> > teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach the
> > child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim each
> > other accidentally or on purpose.
I don't intend they should practice on my child. Whether your statement
is true or not.
> Children *don't* get along. They fight and tease one another
> relentlessly, unless adults are around. They form gangs and
> cliques. Children are not civilized, and are not qualified to
> be teachers to other similar children. Mature leaders must be
> around at all times in order to set a good example.
This comes mostly from the home. If the parents or other adults fight
and tease relentlessly then the children will copy them. The school is
often meant to set the example and introduce anti-bullying policies or
anti-teasing policies. There is a difference between having these
policies lying around and actually putting them into practice. The
school can do all the right things, but if the adults in the home
setting don't have good social skills then the children are just not
going to get them.
> Adult social skills develop with continued contact with adults.
Not always. I know people who have no adult social skills, not even
child social skills. They are really difficult to be with and I avoid
them as much as possible.
Having someone to talk to about this is wonderful.
Suzie
T. Scott Frick
> > > > like her and get them together.
>
> This is really difficult as there are very few children like her
> around. This is my first attempt to try and find people of her own
> abilities for her to (hopefully) socialise with).
What other options do you see?
> > > Social skills develope with continued contact with other people.
Adults
> > > can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
> > > children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
> > > teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach
the
> > > child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim
each
> > > other accidentally or on purpose.
>
> I don't intend they should practice on my child. Whether your statement
> is true or not.
I don't know either, but practice and experimentation is all there is. Your
child needs to practice and experiment.
> > Children *don't* get along. They fight and tease one another
> > relentlessly, unless adults are around. They form gangs and
> > cliques. Children are not civilized, and are not qualified to
> > be teachers to other similar children. Mature leaders must be
> > around at all times in order to set a good example.
>
> This comes mostly from the home. If the parents or other adults fight
> and tease relentlessly then the children will copy them. The school is
> often meant to set the example and introduce anti-bullying policies or
> anti-teasing policies. There is a difference between having these
> policies lying around and actually putting them into practice. The
> school can do all the right things, but if the adults in the home
> setting don't have good social skills then the children are just not
> going to get them.
I don't know about this either. Personally, I think school, as it is
constituted in the US, is a hindrance to the development of social skills in
a lot of children. Other skills too, for that matter. The reason I say
this has little to do with the children and more to do with the adults who
are the authorities. I'm not against school for everyone. But, it
certainly isn't for everyone.
> > Adult social skills develop with continued contact with adults.
>
> Not always. I know people who have no adult social skills, not even
> child social skills. They are really difficult to be with and I avoid
> them as much as possible.
I know people who are difficult to work with too. But, being difficult
doesn't necessarily mean they lack social skills. Some people are just very
idealistic or strong willed. Some people just don't like being around
others. It just depends on how you look at them.
> Having someone to talk to about this is wonderful.
Just keep in mind that everything I write may be total baloney. I've
changed my mind way too often to think I have all the answers. On the other
hand, everything anyone else writes is certifiably true.
Suzie Eisfelder
>
> > > > > Her chronological age is different from her mental age. Find others
> > > > > like her and get them together.
> >
> > This is really difficult as there are very few children like her
> > around. This is my first attempt to try and find people of her own
> > abilities for her to (hopefully) socialise with).
>
> What other options do you see?
At the moment I am considering changing schools. Just to a normal
primary school (I should have said grade 5 in an earlier post) as I
would like to try and keep her with her agegroup.
> > > > Social skills develope with continued contact with other people.
> Adults
> > > > can't teach the social skills a child needs to get along with other
> > > > children. The child will necessarily only learn to socialize with the
> > > > teacher, the adult. Only experience with other children will teach
> the
> > > > child. All the adults can do is make sure they don't kill or maim
> each
> > > > other accidentally or on purpose.
> >
> > I don't intend they should practice on my child. Whether your statement
> > is true or not.
>
> I don't know either, but practice and experimentation is all there is. Your
> child needs to practice and experiment.
As I found out yesterday, different schools have different socialisation
techniques. The one she is currently in is in the process of putting
some new techniques into place. I'm thinking of a school where those
techniques have been in place for some years and the students would
already have been working through the programme.
They would have completed the early stages and would be able to be more
understanding.
> > > Children *don't* get along. They fight and tease one another
> > > relentlessly, unless adults are around. They form gangs and
> > > cliques. Children are not civilized, and are not qualified to
> > > be teachers to other similar children. Mature leaders must be
> > > around at all times in order to set a good example.
> >
> > This comes mostly from the home. If the parents or other adults fight
> > and tease relentlessly then the children will copy them. The school is
> > often meant to set the example and introduce anti-bullying policies or
> > anti-teasing policies. There is a difference between having these
> > policies lying around and actually putting them into practice. The
> > school can do all the right things, but if the adults in the home
> > setting don't have good social skills then the children are just not
> > going to get them.
>
> I don't know about this either. Personally, I think school, as it is
> constituted in the US, is a hindrance to the development of social skills in
> a lot of children. Other skills too, for that matter. The reason I say
> this has little to do with the children and more to do with the adults who
> are the authorities. I'm not against school for everyone. But, it
> certainly isn't for everyone.
Can't comment about schools in the US as I'm in Australia. Here, the
teachers try to give our children socialisation skills.
> > > Adult social skills develop with continued contact with adults.
> >
> > Not always. I know people who have no adult social skills, not even
> > child social skills. They are really difficult to be with and I avoid
> > them as much as possible.
>
> I know people who are difficult to work with too. But, being difficult
> doesn't necessarily mean they lack social skills. Some people are just very
> idealistic or strong willed. Some people just don't like being around
> others. It just depends on how you look at them.
And some people are just plain bitchy. Just a comment.
> > Having someone to talk to about this is wonderful.
>
> Just keep in mind that everything I write may be total baloney. I've
> changed my mind way too often to think I have all the answers. On the other
> hand, everything anyone else writes is certifiably true.
I make no comment. I've been re-educated so much these past few weeks.
Suzie
Pedro Rodrigues
I remember my childhood and I was like that.
I was first aware of my high IQ after I was 20 years old, and my infancy
wasn't easy.
You already acknowledged the fact that you do have one high IQ child. That's
good.
It's common sence, but you'll have to live it on a daily basis.
I remember that my parents didn't allow me to socialize, as they thought I
was much distracted and 'slower' than my brother just because I picked my
self a corner of the house and kept imaginating and dreaming awake fantasies
with 'Lego' cubes. I spent hours with it. I did the same with my ZXSpectrum
at the time. (The ZXSpectrum was the old form of today Game Consoles).
Make him socialize, and let him want to do it. That's what I wanted then
(but never if forced). It gives much more trouble to the fathers though,
because you'll have to keep a bigger eye on your son friends.
If he want's to play with his hands, let him. It allows him to self learn,
test and observe. That is not a problem with him or with any other child. We
just think it is and then it's when we mess things up.
If you think he "doesn't process simple instructions or use common sense
half the time", it might just look so. Look at the following:
I remember that I could not understand what people were saying or asking to
me, because I just couldn't get the context of the conversation. Then, I
messed up. Why? One of the things that affected me most was the fact that
when someone asked me something, instead of processing a simple answer, I
would do like in chess, finding several answers and different endings.
Sometimes, when someone asked me something with second intentions, I would
give the answer to what the person really wanted to know and not to the
exact question that was made. It didn't allow me to give fast answers, but
as you can see it wasn't a problem of retarded thoughs, just different
routes.
I wen't on therapy with the age of 10 years, because my fathers didn't know
what was wrong with me. It's hard when we aren't understood by our own
fathers and least of all by the psychologist that attends you.
Now I learned to control the way I do the thinking, by learning 'method'.
Unfortunatelly I did it by myself, no one helped me.
Just try to treat him like a normal kid, but don't try to pretend he doesn't
have an higher IQ. Like with all children, give him space to try out if he
does want and to stay put if he does not. Don't make it a problem to you, if
it isn't a problem to him and if he doesn't think he has a problem, you
won't either.
Regarding gifted people, there isn't a linear line of understanding,
learning and applying of thoughts. Each must be as it is.
Hope to have helped.
Pedro Rodrigues
pm...@mail.telepac.pt
T. Scott Frick
Do you remember well what it was like for you in school? One of the things
I did when I realized my son was probably gifted was send letters out to all
of the elementary, middle and high schools I had attended. I asked for all
of the records the schools still had. My thought was I could reconstruct
what had been done with me in school and thereby have some comparison or
baseline when thinking about my son.
This has helped me a lot. For instance I found out that most of the
standard tests given to children in the US are achievement or ability tests.
They are normed a lot like IQ tests but aren't really IQ tests.
I also began to wonder about what the schools were doing with all of this
information they collected. As best as I can remember they never did
anything much with it.
Anyway, as I recall from a previous post, you seem to consider yourself of
average intelligence. I guess I would question that assumption. A fairly
common theme from what I have read is that gifted children have gifted
parents (or, the other way around, if you insist). Perhaps a little digging
into your childhood history is in order?
T. Scott Frick
> >> http://www.cognitiveprofile.com/
> >
> >Perhaps this is obvious to someone else, but why are the two outer
letters
> >not used? Where did the (EI) and (JP) parts go?
> >
>
But, not in this one:
http://www.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html
T. Scott Frick
> >letters
> >> >not used? Where did the (EI) and (JP) parts go?
> >> >
> >>
> >> Away in this scheme as they do no describe cognitive thinking style.
> >
> >But, not in this one:
> >http://www.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html
> >
>
> scale with 4 types gives me much more information about my students.
> Of the sixteen, only 4 groups of four tell how differently one
> cognates. Introvert / Extrovert has nothing to do with that --
"Cognates?" How do you mean? Think?
As for the rest of what you say, I don't know. Now that I think about this,
it seems to me that introverts and extroverts would choose to learn in
different ways. I am strongly introverted and would have avoided all
classroom time had that been an option. I learn from reading, rereading,
thinking and waiting. All else being equal, extroverts, I would guess,
would feel more comfortable in a classroom.
Still, I like that someone has recognized that not everyone learns the same
way. I don't think I ever saw a teacher put this into practice, but I might
not have noticed. Anyway, it's a step in the right direction.
Suzie Eisfelder
>
> > I make no comment. I've been re-educated so much these past few weeks.
>
> Do you remember well what it was like for you in school? One of the things
> I did when I realized my son was probably gifted was send letters out to all
> of the elementary, middle and high schools I had attended. I asked for all
> of the records the schools still had. My thought was I could reconstruct
> what had been done with me in school and thereby have some comparison or
> baseline when thinking about my son.
I barely remember school at all. I do remember my school reports. They
mostly talked about me being shy and dreaming, not getting the work done
even though capable. I don't know if the schools here keep the
information for that long. Reconstruction is interesting, but I leave
it to my sister.
> This has helped me a lot. For instance I found out that most of the
> standard tests given to children in the US are achievement or ability tests.
> They are normed a lot like IQ tests but aren't really IQ tests.
>
> I also began to wonder about what the schools were doing with all of this
> information they collected. As best as I can remember they never did
> anything much with it.
>
> Anyway, as I recall from a previous post, you seem to consider yourself of
> average intelligence. I guess I would question that assumption. A fairly
> common theme from what I have read is that gifted children have gifted
> parents (or, the other way around, if you insist). Perhaps a little digging
> into your childhood history is in order?
You're right, I do consider myself of average intelligence. My sister
is extremely gifted, though. It seems to have missed me. Not that I
mind, it must be very hard being extremely gifted. I much prefer to be
normal. I just don't know how to help my daughter. She's having real
trouble with socialisation. I'm considering a new school at the moment,
but an unwilling to move her until she makes some progress with her
socialisation skills. Don't want to put her into a new situation and
make things more difficult.
Suzie
Ray L
> normal. I just don't know how to help my daughter. She's having real
> trouble with socialisation. I'm considering a new school at the moment,
> but an unwilling to move her until she makes some progress with her
> socialisation skills. Don't want to put her into a new situation and
> make things more difficult.
Is there someone who could coach her?
Here's something Google found under 'teaching social skills':
http://home.att.net/~clnetwork/socialsk.htm
and there's even a book
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0938510304/104-3937272-2288716
T. Scott Frick
things
> > I did when I realized my son was probably gifted was send letters out to
all
> > of the elementary, middle and high schools I had attended. I asked for
all
> > of the records the schools still had. My thought was I could
reconstruct
> > what had been done with me in school and thereby have some comparison or
> > baseline when thinking about my son.
>
> I barely remember school at all. I do remember my school reports. They
> mostly talked about me being shy and dreaming, not getting the work done
> even though capable. I don't know if the schools here keep the
> information for that long. Reconstruction is interesting, but I leave
> it to my sister.
OK. Wrong idea.
As an aside. A pox on all teachers who torment children with, "not working
to potential." Which is really just another way of saying you aren't doing
what is in the lesson plan.
> > Anyway, as I recall from a previous post, you seem to consider yourself
of
> > average intelligence. I guess I would question that assumption. A
fairly
> > common theme from what I have read is that gifted children have gifted
> > parents (or, the other way around, if you insist). Perhaps a little
digging
> > into your childhood history is in order?
>
> You're right, I do consider myself of average intelligence. My sister
> is extremely gifted, though. It seems to have missed me. Not that I
> mind, it must be very hard being extremely gifted. I much prefer to be
> normal. I just don't know how to help my daughter. She's having real
> trouble with socialisation. I'm considering a new school at the moment,
> but an unwilling to move her until she makes some progress with her
> socialisation skills. Don't want to put her into a new situation and
> make things more difficult.
Well, I have to admire your focus. My point was that you may have to
understand yourself better before helping your daughter. But, the time is
not right for that.
Have you talked with your sister? Perhaps she could tell you what she would
like you to do if she was your daughter and you were her mother? What kinds
of things would have made your sister's life-as-a-child better? In what
ways was your sister gifted?
The most direct route is to ask your daughter. She probably has a very good
sense of what would be good for her. She may or may not be able to put it
into words. You have to watch out, though, because gifted children are very
good at giving up their best interests if they think they can make a loved
one happy (or just get them to leave them alone). What I mean by that is
she may tell you what she thinks you want to hear. So, you may get back
from her a mirrored version of your own desires. But, even that, if you are
open to it, may be helpful.
I have avoided asking what you think socialization means because I assumed I
knew, but perhaps I do not. So, I'll ask. What does socialization mean to
you? I know it is important to you, but what was done to you when you were
a child that looking back was right and correct? Or what was wrong and ill
conceived? Does anything stand out as helping you make a way into the
world?
T. Scott Frick
this,
> >it seems to me that introverts and extroverts would choose to learn in
> >different ways.
>
> cognitive style.
>
> Learning styles -- like auditory, visual, etc.
I'm not sure the two can be usefully separated. But, perhaps I'm just
muddling the theories of Carl Jung and Howard Gardner.
> You need to get in touch with at least part of your extroverted side
> -- as you miss a lot by avoiding people. This is why lots of people
> join Mensa -- to feel more free to be around people who won't judge
> them for what they are.
You do see the contradiction in your two statements above?
Anyway, to judge from the typical participation rates in Mensa activities,
there are many more reasons people join Mensa than companionship.
> How one gets the information is irrelevant to how it is processes in
> the brain -- the cognitive style.
I just don't know about this either. It seems that if this were true, and
people actually believed it were true, there would be no need for schools.
> >Still, I like that someone has recognized that not everyone learns the
same
> >way. I don't think I ever saw a teacher put this into practice, but I
might
> >not have noticed. Anyway, it's a step in the right direction.
> >
>
> Teachers put it in to practice everyday by varying learning activities
> from whole group, small group, hand-ons, listening activites, etc.
Wouldn't it better to let the learner decide when to make these switches
from whole to partial to hands-on, etc..? Isn't jerking learners around
like this counter-productive and stressful for the learner? Don't they just
end up learning how to make teachers happy in an array of settings?
Suzie Eisfelder
>
> > > Do you remember well what it was like for you in school? One of the
> things
> > > I did when I realized my son was probably gifted was send letters out to
> all
> > > of the elementary, middle and high schools I had attended. I asked for
> all
> > > of the records the schools still had. My thought was I could
> reconstruct
> > > what had been done with me in school and thereby have some comparison or
> > > baseline when thinking about my son.
> >
> > I barely remember school at all. I do remember my school reports. They
> > mostly talked about me being shy and dreaming, not getting the work done
> > even though capable. I don't know if the schools here keep the
> > information for that long. Reconstruction is interesting, but I leave
> > it to my sister.
>
> OK. Wrong idea.
>
> As an aside. A pox on all teachers who torment children with, "not working
> to potential." Which is really just another way of saying you aren't doing
> what is in the lesson plan.
This must work different ways in different countries. Here it means
exactly what it says. My daughter is capable of exceeding the rest of
the class by a mile, but does not and this is one cause for concern
although it will improve when she is happier so I'm trying not to worry.
> > > Anyway, as I recall from a previous post, you seem to consider yourself
> of
> > > average intelligence. I guess I would question that assumption. A
> fairly
> > > common theme from what I have read is that gifted children have gifted
> > > parents (or, the other way around, if you insist). Perhaps a little
> digging
> > > into your childhood history is in order?
> >
> > You're right, I do consider myself of average intelligence. My sister
> > is extremely gifted, though. It seems to have missed me. Not that I
> > mind, it must be very hard being extremely gifted. I much prefer to be
> > normal. I just don't know how to help my daughter. She's having real
> > trouble with socialisation. I'm considering a new school at the moment,
> > but an unwilling to move her until she makes some progress with her
> > socialisation skills. Don't want to put her into a new situation and
> > make things more difficult.
>
> Well, I have to admire your focus. My point was that you may have to
> understand yourself better before helping your daughter. But, the time is
> not right for that.
Thank you. I do understand what you mean, but she is so different to me
I don't see how understanding myself can help her.
> Have you talked with your sister? Perhaps she could tell you what she would
> like you to do if she was your daughter and you were her mother? What kinds
> of things would have made your sister's life-as-a-child better? In what
> ways was your sister gifted?
I talk to my sister all the time about it. She is happy that I am at
least doing something about it as my parents had too much happening to
be able to do anything for her in her childhood. My sister is gifted in
all ways. If she needs a skill she applies herself and learns it very
quickly.
> The most direct route is to ask your daughter. She probably has a very good
> sense of what would be good for her. She may or may not be able to put it
> into words. You have to watch out, though, because gifted children are very
> good at giving up their best interests if they think they can make a loved
> one happy (or just get them to leave them alone). What I mean by that is
> she may tell you what she thinks you want to hear. So, you may get back
> from her a mirrored version of your own desires. But, even that, if you are
> open to it, may be helpful.
She doesn't know what she needs. As yet she is too young and doesn't
have the experience. She has stated she doesn't like the school she is
in, but that is because she is being teased and bullied and has no idea
how to deal with this.
> I have avoided asking what you think socialization means because I assumed I
> knew, but perhaps I do not. So, I'll ask. What does socialization mean to
> you? I know it is important to you, but what was done to you when you were
> a child that looking back was right and correct? Or what was wrong and ill
> conceived? Does anything stand out as helping you make a way into the
> world?
Socialisation, I wonder if this is a real word or just one I made up. I
mean having social skills. Being able to deal with people without
retreating within oneself or losing one's temper. This is the first
problem, when that is well on the way to being solved I want to be able
to get her to fulfil her potential i.e. do work both within and without
the curriculum.
You've no idea how wonderful it is to be able to talk about this with
people who actually understand.
Thank you for everything.
Suzie
Suzie Eisfelder
>
> Suzie Eisfelder <suz...@techno.net.au> wrote in message
> news:3CBEC323...@techno.net.au...
>
> > normal. I just don't know how to help my daughter. She's having real
> > trouble with socialisation. I'm considering a new school at the moment,
> > but an unwilling to move her until she makes some progress with her
> > socialisation skills. Don't want to put her into a new situation and
> > make things more difficult.
>
> Is there someone who could coach her?
That's what I'm starting to look for. I've just checked out the url and
will study it with my other half. I'll have to get the book as well.
Thanks for the links.
T. Scott Frick
They
> > > mostly talked about me being shy and dreaming, not getting the work
done
> > > even though capable. I don't know if the schools here keep the
> > > information for that long. Reconstruction is interesting, but I leave
> > > it to my sister.
> >
working
> > to potential." Which is really just another way of saying you aren't
doing
> > what is in the lesson plan.
>
> This must work different ways in different countries. Here it means
> exactly what it says. My daughter is capable of exceeding the rest of
> the class by a mile, but does not and this is one cause for concern
> although it will improve when she is happier so I'm trying not to worry.
It probably means about the same thing here as there. The basic idea is
that a gifted person who is not doing what the school, or anyone else,
including the parents, thinks they should be doing, is not living up to
their potential. That's a little broad and doesn't capture the torment I
remember very well, but it's a start. When I was a child, I heard a lot
that I was capable of doing so much more than I was doing.
The reality was that I wasn't able to do more. Not because I couldn't in an
intellectual sense, but because of where I was. I was in school and it
wasn't structured for me as a place to learn in. The only part of the
school that mattered was the library.
> > Well, I have to admire your focus. My point was that you may have to
> > understand yourself better before helping your daughter. But, the time
is
> > not right for that.
>
> Thank you. I do understand what you mean, but she is so different to me
> I don't see how understanding myself can help her.
You will have to forgive my one last try to get you to question your
assumption that you are of average intelligence.
> > Have you talked with your sister? Perhaps she could tell you what she
would
> > like you to do if she was your daughter and you were her mother? What
kinds
> > of things would have made your sister's life-as-a-child better? In what
> > ways was your sister gifted?
>
> I talk to my sister all the time about it. She is happy that I am at
> least doing something about it as my parents had too much happening to
> be able to do anything for her in her childhood. My sister is gifted in
> all ways. If she needs a skill she applies herself and learns it very
> quickly.
Your sister learned to cope. Does your sister see your daughter developing
any of the strategies she used?
> > The most direct route is to ask your daughter. She probably has a very
good
> > sense of what would be good for her. She may or may not be able to put
it
> > into words. You have to watch out, though, because gifted children are
very
> > good at giving up their best interests if they think they can make a
loved
> > one happy (or just get them to leave them alone). What I mean by that
is
> > she may tell you what she thinks you want to hear. So, you may get back
> > from her a mirrored version of your own desires. But, even that, if you
are
> > open to it, may be helpful.
>
> She doesn't know what she needs. As yet she is too young and doesn't
> have the experience. She has stated she doesn't like the school she is
> in, but that is because she is being teased and bullied and has no idea
> how to deal with this.
One possiblity that I recall from grade school, and with very little relish,
was that I simply couldn't hurt my tormenters. Being picked on, by bullies
or teachers or anyone else, is a mind altering experience for a young
person. The shock can be overwhelming. Even in that fog I could still
think several moves ahead and couldn't bring myself to escalating the
confrontation. It was easy to imagine the whole thing getting out of
control and I refused to let that happen.
Now, as a parent, I see very clearly that my job is to protect my son when
these situations arise. My wife even does duty at the school as a volunteer
playground monitor. She has seen repeatedly that other monitors, and even
the supervisory teachers, don't step in when the play gets rough. There
seems, in this country, to be a great deal of tolerance for violent behavior
in children. I don't understand why that is. It is so easy to stop.
Perhaps we aren't talking about your daughter's socialization so much as we
are talking about the failure of the school. Do they not have a protective
responsibility toward the children? Do they really think anyone can learn
in a threatening environment?
> > I have avoided asking what you think socialization means because I
assumed I
> > knew, but perhaps I do not. So, I'll ask. What does socialization mean
to
> > you? I know it is important to you, but what was done to you when you
were
> > a child that looking back was right and correct? Or what was wrong and
ill
> > conceived? Does anything stand out as helping you make a way into the
> > world?
>
> Socialisation, I wonder if this is a real word or just one I made up. I
> mean having social skills. Being able to deal with people without
> retreating within oneself or losing one's temper. This is the first
> problem, when that is well on the way to being solved I want to be able
> to get her to fulfil her potential i.e. do work both within and without
> the curriculum.
I'm still thinking about this.
> You've no idea how wonderful it is to be able to talk about this with
> people who actually understand.
>
> Thank you for everything.
You are very welcome. And, thank you.
Suzie Eisfelder
I begin to see what you're saying. I do understand that this school is
not the best school for her in many ways.
> > > Well, I have to admire your focus. My point was that you may have to
> > > understand yourself better before helping your daughter. But, the time
> is
> > > not right for that.
> >
> > Thank you. I do understand what you mean, but she is so different to me
> > I don't see how understanding myself can help her.
>
> You will have to forgive my one last try to get you to question your
> assumption that you are of average intelligence.
I was tested many years ago and came up as above average, my sister was
tested at the same time and came up with extremely gifted. I'm not just
going by my perceptions. It also has to do with having several
undiagnosed health challenges all my life and not having the energy to
perform "to my potential". I am only improving now that they have been
diagnosed, but I can't make up all of my lost time. I thank you for
your concern.
> > > Have you talked with your sister? Perhaps she could tell you what she
> would
> > > like you to do if she was your daughter and you were her mother? What
> kinds
> > > of things would have made your sister's life-as-a-child better? In what
> > > ways was your sister gifted?
> >
> > I talk to my sister all the time about it. She is happy that I am at
> > least doing something about it as my parents had too much happening to
> > be able to do anything for her in her childhood. My sister is gifted in
> > all ways. If she needs a skill she applies herself and learns it very
> > quickly.
>
> Your sister learned to cope. Does your sister see your daughter developing
> any of the strategies she used?
No. She sees my daughter as having the anger she never had. My sister
is a very calm person, my daughter is not and that needs different
strategies.
I think that is the problem. She was persecuted by a bully last year
and now that there are adults listening to her she is improving. She
told us today about how she coped with some teasing a couple of days
ago. It was a big break through, her coping instead of losing her
temper. I was so excited.
> Now, as a parent, I see very clearly that my job is to protect my son when
> these situations arise. My wife even does duty at the school as a volunteer
> playground monitor. She has seen repeatedly that other monitors, and even
> the supervisory teachers, don't step in when the play gets rough. There
> seems, in this country, to be a great deal of tolerance for violent behavior
> in children. I don't understand why that is. It is so easy to stop.
>
> Perhaps we aren't talking about your daughter's socialization so much as we
> are talking about the failure of the school. Do they not have a protective
> responsibility toward the children? Do they really think anyone can learn
> in a threatening environment?
That is the crux of the matter. Thanks to many people (including those
on this newsgroup), I have managed to become a lot more objective and
have realised that the school is still using the policies developed by
the current principal who is on sick leave. She has been replaced by
her deputy who is gradually hiring more young teachers with a different
mind set and who are putting into place strategies to deal with bullies
and teasers. This is great for the long term, but I'm still going to be
moving my child as I don't think it will be fast enough for her. I'm
waiting until after her birthday and also until she makes some more
progress. The school I'm considering happens to hire the same
psychologist who currently works with her at school, and they have had
strategies about bullies etc in place for some years. They also have
more and better programmes for extremely gifted children.
> > > I have avoided asking what you think socialization means because I
> assumed I
> > > knew, but perhaps I do not. So, I'll ask. What does socialization mean
> to
> > > you? I know it is important to you, but what was done to you when you
> were
> > > a child that looking back was right and correct? Or what was wrong and
> ill
> > > conceived? Does anything stand out as helping you make a way into the
> > > world?
> >
> > Socialisation, I wonder if this is a real word or just one I made up. I
> > mean having social skills. Being able to deal with people without
> > retreating within oneself or losing one's temper. This is the first
> > problX-Mozilla-Status: 0009on the way to being solved I want to be able
> > to get her to fulfil her potential i.e. do work both within and without
> > the curriculum.
>
> I'm still thinking about this.
>
> > You've no idea how wonderful it is to be able to talk about this with
> > people who actually understand.
> >
> > Thank you for everything.
>
> You are very welcome. And, thank you.
Suzie
who is feeling a lot calmer as the situation is coming under control.
Jeffrey O'Leary
it is an avenue to explore from what you have said. Autistic children have
a very wide variety of characteristics but usually possess a very high IQ
and know very little what to do with it. If he is, there are better ways to
guide him than fighting with his teachers. Remember, most of the time
people who have never experienced what you are experiencing with your son
will never understand him or you.
--
Angela M. O'Leary
"Janie" <jasona...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:BoKp8.5927$ml2.4...@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> My husband just pointed me to this site because I have been getting so
> frustrated trying to decide what my son should or shouldn't be doing. He
> tested in the very superior range on an I.Q. test, but can't find his
shoes
> underneath his own feet. I keep hearing about all of the "gifted"
children
> who are doing calculus in fourth grade or reading high school science
books
> in third grade. My son is very smart and picks up subjects quickly. Give
> him a computer program and he will learn tons! He is in second grade this
> year and finished a third grade computer game before Christmas, but he
isn't
> obsessive about anything except Playstation games. Of course, his teacher
> insists he has ADHD and she worries because he sits by himself in the
lunch
> room playing games using just his hands and his imagination. I have been
> trying to fight the school to give him more to do and to challenge him
while
> changing his environment during the week to keep him interested, but then
he
> gives me reasons to think "gifted" isn't the correct term for him because
he
Debbie and Blake Pentecost
"Jeffrey O'Leary" <Angel...@charter.net> wrote in message news:uonavoa...@corp.supernews.com...
Jeffrey O'Leary
it is an avenue to explore from what you have said. Autistic children have
a very wide variety of characteristics but usually possess a very high IQ
and know very little what to do with it. If he is, there are better ways to
guide him than fighting with his teachers. Remember, most of the time
people who have never experienced what you are experiencing with your son
will never understand him or you.
--
Angela
"Janie" <jasona...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message