Reason

[dmday3000]

Hello, 

I'm a Christian and am looking for an atheist (just one) to interact with. I found your group through meetup.com. I'm interested in engaging in a debate through this thread, or email. 

Subject: Reason, subjective or objective?

Thanks

dmday3000

 

[Orson Zedd]

Ah, okay, so, uh, sure?

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[dmday3000]

Ok, so my question is: Freethinkers appeal to reason as a foundational idea, Is logic and reason universal to all men?

On Saturday, June 29, 2013 6:27:55 AM UTC, Orson Zedd wrote:

Ah, okay, so, uh, sure?

On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 1:15 AM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello, 

I'm a Christian and am looking for an atheist (just one) to interact with. I found your group through meetup.com. I'm interested in engaging in a debate through this thread, or email. 

Subject: Reason, subjective or objective?

Thanks

dmday3000

 

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[sudo]

Hi DDay.. You've answered your own question by stating up front you are a Christian. Obviously not a choice made by reason and logic but by faith. 

sudo

[Procyon]

On Saturday, June 29, 2013 4:54:50 AM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

Ok, so my question is: Freethinkers appeal to reason as a foundational idea, Is logic and reason universal to all men?

I think you need to define what you mean by 'universal' (and possibly revise your original question).  If your question above is whether logic and reason are AVAILABLE to all men or women, then yes, of course it is available to any with a functioning brain that wish to use it.

If your original question is about men and women who choose to use logic and reason as a way to make decisions and discern truth, and whether their conclusions would be universal, that sounds more like a question about whether objective truth really exists.  That is a slightly different topic, but one that has been discussed a few times at the meetup groups but one I'm sure it will be discussed again in the future.

Anyway, if you are seeking the truth, I think you are going in the right direction.  

Procyon

 

[dmday3000]

"If your question above is whether logic and reason are AVAILABLE to all men or women, then yes, of course it is available to any with a functioning brain that wish to use it."

A good way of stating my question, so if logic and reason are available to all men then did they exist before there were human brains?

[Orson Zedd]

I think empiricism is far more valuable than pure reason.  But that's just me.

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[dmday3000]

"I think empiricism is far more valuable than pure reason.  But that's just me."

Question: can all knowledge be gained through empiricism? 

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 3:12:07 AM UTC, Orson Zedd wrote:

I think empiricism is far more valuable than pure reason.  But that's just me.

On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 4:38 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

"If your question above is whether logic and reason are AVAILABLE to all men or women, then yes, of course it is available to any with a functioning brain that wish to use it."

A good way of stating my question, so if logic and reason are available to all men then did they exist before there were human brains?

On Saturday, June 29, 2013 11:39:19 AM UTC-5, Procyon wrote:

On Saturday, June 29, 2013 4:54:50 AM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

Ok, so my question is: Freethinkers appeal to reason as a foundational idea, Is logic and reason universal to all men?

I think you need to define what you mean by 'universal' (and possibly revise your original question).  If your question above is whether logic and reason are AVAILABLE to all men or women, then yes, of course it is available to any with a functioning brain that wish to use it.

If your original question is about men and women who choose to use logic and reason as a way to make decisions and discern truth, and whether their conclusions would be universal, that sounds more like a question about whether objective truth really exists.  That is a slightly different topic, but one that has been discussed a few times at the meetup groups but one I'm sure it will be discussed again in the future.

Anyway, if you are seeking the truth, I think you are going in the right direction.  

Procyon

 

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[Martin Atkins]

Literature, music, movies, and other art forms would be important, too. Personal experience and relationships are also valuable. I don't know of any atheists who are like Data or Vulcans on Star Trek (or desire to be so). However, atheists know that fiction is not the same as nonfiction.

Many Mormons know that Joseph Smith spoke the Truth. And Mormons are very rational and apply a high level of critical and analytical thinking when examining other faiths. Mormons (I think) cherish logic. I think most--if not all--faiths love reason except when the light of reason shines on the magical assumptions of their own beloved faith.

[Martin Atkins]

You can't know personal experiences or perceptions through empiricism. You will never truly know how my eyes see the color blue or exactly how I feel when smelling a flower or even a fart unless you are my identical clone perhaps. :)

[Orson Zedd]

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

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[fun4alll]

>A good way of stating my question, so if logic and reason are available to all men then did they exist before there were human brains?

This reminds me of the philosophical question about a tree falling in the forest. If there is nobody to hear it, does it make a sound? The universe is a big place. Before humans existed, somewhere in the universe there likely existed other beings with brains as developed as ours, or perhaps even more so. They too would have discovered the same basic truths, and lines of reasoning and logic as have we. The universe did not begin with my birth, nor will it vanish upon my death. The same can be said about the birth and death of humanity. Truth and logic will persist long after all signs of humanity have vanished. We "discover" logic, we have not "invented" it. Traditional theists see the entire universe as nothing more than a playground and incubator for humanity, and they will strongly disagree with me. However, I for one, have no more patience for them, than I do for members of the flat earth society.

[Martin Atkins]

Yes, the tree makes a sounds and sound can be recorded even when people aren't present. Perhaps these philosophers should've waited for sound recording devices before making a conclusion.

Sounds doesn't care if humans exist and some people argue that sounds, the earth, and the entire universe will not exist if humans cease to exist, which--to me--seems a little egoistical.

[dmday3000]

All useful knowledge can. If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears. My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

[Leo Alessi]

How can one know a supernatural being through natural means? "The ability to know his creator" has no meaning empirically. Where does this ability reside? The mind?

[Orson Zedd]

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

[Procyon]

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:42:32 PM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence? 
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

You trust your senses based on experience and logic.  Trusting them doesn't mean you expect them to be 100% accurate, there is always the possibility they will be wrong.  In addition, there is always the possibility that what you are experiencing is really some simulation and your brain is in a vat, but I think this is very unlikely.

I find it strange that you are implying that our senses, even if God-given, give us the ability to know God, when in fact more than 99.99% of believers (in my experience) don't cite any of the 5 senses as what gave them the ability to know God or to continue to know God (unless you were implying that reason gives man the ability to conclude that God EXISTS).

As noted in another post, it's not just whether logic and reason existed before humans, you can also ask whether logic and reason will exist long after humans are gone. I think it is obvious that logic and reason will still exist.  I think in billions of years, if the Universe is still expanding as we know it, and all of the other characteristics are the same, that some other intelligent lifeforms will also develop a theory of a Big Bang.  That's logic and reason, but may or may not be the true way the Universe began.

This is beyond my expertise, but I think this article may also be of some use in these types of discussions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic%E2%80%93synthetic_distinction

Procyon

  

[Orson Zedd]

Oh and if you're going on how you feel to guide you? I'm gonna say empiricism and logic and reason are AT LEAST that real.

  

--

[Martin Atkins]

dmday3000:

 

Atheists don't worship "reason and logic" or "empiricism".  There are a number of artistic types within atheism.  However, most (if not all) atheists that I've met get annoyed when a person tells them a wild and bizarre story and feels as if he or she must believe the story.  Atheists also get confused when people deny (or implore the atheist to suspend) reason as well as the natural laws discovered by empiricism to embrace some bizarre idea.  Sometimes the person even gets angry or offended when the atheist doesn't accept the seemingly outrageous idea.   

 

 

Example: Mr. Joe says, "This guy got his head chopped off and he lived! Can you believe that?"  Mrs. Atheist, "No, I don't believe it".  Mr. Joe, "You are in denial of the truth." Mrs. Atheist responds, "Huh? I don't even know how to respond to that. What? Are you serious?"

 

Example: Mr. Joe say, "This guy flew into outer space on a horse-like creature almost a thousand years ago.  Can you believe that?" Mrs. Atheist, "No, I don't believe it".  Mr. Joe, "You are in denial of the truth." Mrs. Atheist responds, "Huh? I don't even know how to respond to that. What? Are you serious?"

 

Example: Mr. Joe say, "This guy got crucified, dead, and rose like a zombie.  Can you believe that?" Mrs. Atheist, "No, I don't believe it".  Mr. Joe, "You are in denial of the truth." Mrs. Atheist responds, "Huh? I don't even know how to respond to that. What?  Are you serious?"

 

Etc, etc, etc.

 

 

 

 

 

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:42:32 PM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

[Martin Atkins]

dmday3000:

 

Most scientists do not solely rely on sight, hearing, taste, touch, or smell (the 5 senses) to study the natural world.  The natural world, however, is what scientists study.  A person can't always sense parts of the natural world, for example, you can't touch, hear, taste, smell or see a neutrino, electron, black hole, air current, and so forth.  However, these things are natural things and scientists still study them even though they can't be studied by the senses.  Now scientists don't study non-things or supernatural things, such as fairies, vampires, elves, gods, zombies, trolls, ghosts, wood nymphs, and so forth.  However, social scientists may study religion as a natural phenomenon or perhaps the Icelandic culture as it relates to the idea of an elf or troll and so forth.  Does that make sense?

[fun4alll]

> Answer: ... Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

Original poster. An atheist knows to not trust ones senses. They are at best incomplete, and at worst, quite deceptive. We are blind to 99.9% of the electromagnetic spectrum, only able to perceive wavelengths between the ultra narrow interval of 340nm to 780nm. Within that interval we can see, but our senses are obscured by well known illusions, hallucinations, limited response times, finate contract sensitivities, and crude hue, saturation, and lightness resolving powers. We know how flawed our own senses are, and we are more inclined to use instruments, high speed cameras and sensors to relay the truth as to what can be 'seen'. Your first impulse is to begin by presuming there is a deity, and then drag him into each and every step of perceived reality. How much more magnificent the universe is, the one I know and am familiar with. One which is capable of producing complexity, yielding life, and trending toward intelligence. There is folly along the way, as some animals cower in fear of the unknown, and wallow in fantasy and mypthology. However, ultimately the universe produces beings capable of looking right back, and helping the universe grasp itself.

[Frank Peters]

Where are you located?

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:18 PM, fun4alll <funtim...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Answer: ... Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

Original poster. An atheist knows to not trust ones senses. They are at best incomplete, and at worst, quite deceptive. We are blind to 99.9% of the electromagnetic spectrum, only able to perceive wavelengths between the ultra narrow interval of 340nm to 780nm. Within that interval we can see, but our senses are obscured by well known illusions, hallucinations, limited response times, finate contract sensitivities, and crude hue, saturation, and lightness resolving powers. We know how flawed our own senses are, and we are more inclined to use instruments, high speed cameras and sensors to relay the truth as to what can be 'seen'. Your first impulse is to begin by presuming there is a deity, and then drag him into each and every step of perceived reality. How much more magnificent the universe is, the one I know and am familiar with. One which is capable of producing complexity, yielding life, and trending toward intelligence. There is folly along the way, as some animals cower in fear of the unknown, and wallow in fantasy and mypthology. However, ultimately the universe produces beings capable of looking right back, and helping the universe grasp itself.

[sudo]

Where is who located??

 

sudo

 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 3:38:20 PM UTC-5, ktorch wrote:

Where are you located?

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 3:18 PM, fun4alll <funtim...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Answer: ... Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

Original poster. An atheist knows to not trust ones senses. They are at best incomplete, and at worst, quite deceptive. We are blind to 99.9% of the electromagnetic spectrum, only able to perceive wavelengths between the ultra narrow interval of 340nm to 780nm. Within that interval we can see, but our senses are obscured by well known illusions, hallucinations, limited response times, finate contract sensitivities, and crude hue, saturation, and lightness resolving powers. We know how flawed our own senses are, and we are more inclined to use instruments, high speed cameras and sensors to relay the truth as to what can be 'seen'. Your first impulse is to begin by presuming there is a deity, and then drag him into each and every step of perceived reality. How much more magnificent the universe is, the one I know and am familiar with. One which is capable of producing complexity, yielding life, and trending toward intelligence. There is folly along the way, as some animals cower in fear of the unknown, and wallow in fantasy and mypthology. However, ultimately the universe produces beings capable of looking right back, and helping the universe grasp itself.

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[fun4alll]

'Me', with the Darth Vader icon pic, I'm in Memphis TN, but I'm a transplant from the east coast. I'm not sure where the original poster comes from. On a forum, location doesn't matter.

[dmday3000]

you presuppose that man is only natural, the truth is man has a soul. The writer of Job asks, who gave the mind it's desire to know? the heart it's desire for wisdom?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:48:50 PM UTC-5, la3111 wrote:

How can one know a supernatural being through natural means? "The ability to know his creator" has no meaning empirically. Where does this ability reside? The mind?

On Jun 30, 2013, at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?
>    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
>     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.
>
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[Matt Germany]

Why is it the truth that man has a soul?  Because someone wrote it in a book that a lot of people believe to be magically infallible?

--Matt

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[dmday3000]

You presuppose that man's sense are fallible all the time. While man is not omniscient, God gave man the ability to perceive through creation and in his innate nature to know truth. The problem is the atheist cannot account or justify knowledge, logic or morality. Since all knowledge must be verified as true through a greater authority, I can have certainty about the world in which I live in. 

Question: How do you account or justify your knowledge, logic or reason?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Michael Stanfill]

You need to be proving this alleged "soul".  And your book of multiple choice is not proof.

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From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

you presuppose that man is only natural, the truth is man has a soul. The writer of Job asks, who gave the mind it's desire to know? the heart it's desire for wisdom?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:48:50 PM UTC-5, la3111 wrote:

How can one know a supernatural being through natural means? "The ability to know his creator" has no meaning empirically. Where does this ability reside? The mind?

On Jun 30, 2013, at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?
>    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
>     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.
>
> --
> --

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[Michael Stanfill]

Hogwash!

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

You presuppose that man's sense are fallible all the time. While man is not omniscient, God gave man the ability to perceive through creation and in his innate nature to know truth. The problem is the atheist cannot account or justify knowledge, logic or morality. Since all knowledge must be verified as true through a greater authority, I can have certainty about the world in which I live in. 

Question: How do you account or justify your knowledge, logic or reason?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Matt Germany]

Yeah, I've got to agree here.  You're making some pretty broad claims without (so much as I can tell) any underlying evidence to support them.

I'm an atheist, and I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that mathematical laws are because they are (a+b=b+a and on and on).  I don't feel like I need to scratch my head and double-check math against the bible to make sure it works.

How does "the atheist" justify morality?  Over time, hominids realized things worked out better if we weren't all dicks to eachother (there's maybe an interesting debate for Hobbesians vs. Rawlsians, but I'm pretty sure we're moral because more of our predecessors with the propensity for morality passed on their genes).

The knowledge question is the only one of any real interest to me.  When I first saw this thread open up, I thought perhaps we'd see empiricism juxtaposed against phenomenology (having taken a few courses in Continental philosophy in college, I thought that sort of thing might be pretty neat, since there are a lot of sharp people in this group whose opinions I respect).  I can see now that this was wishful thinking.

Instead, I fear this discussion may not have the legs I'd hoped, that instead it may boil down to "well, the bible (or God) says this" and "well, we don't put a lot of stock in those sources."

Cheers,
Matt  

[Matt Germany]

dmday3000,

Here may be a better place to start than the whole no one can know anything without god schpiel:

"Reality is susceptible of philosophical investigation only to the extent that it is consciousness" (from Quentin Lauer's notes on Edmund Hussrel's Phenomenology and the Crisis of Philosophy).

There, I think is a far better starting point for the argument it seems you're trying to make.

--Matt

[dmday3000]

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[dmday3000]

Excellent rebuttal!

Hogwash!

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[Matt Germany]

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

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[dmday3000]

"but I'm pretty sure we're moral"  you can only be pretty sure because you deny the God that has established morals by his very nature. You have no grounds on which to say anything is moral or not moral. On the other hand I can appeal outside my circle for morality. Your appeal is circular in itself. 

Question: The Bible says the unbeliever has become futile in his thinking, is it not true that circular thinking is futile?

on the other hand...this thread is becoming difficult to manage! so many responders :)

Hogwash!

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[dmday3000]

Certainly, as soon as you can offer empirical proof for , logic, morality, knowledge.

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[Matt Germany]

I wasn't trying to be crass.  I am unable to answer your question as to whether all knowledge is attainable by empirical means. I gave the best answer I could offer.

Would you mind answering my question as to whether that matters for your argument and why?

--Matt

[dmday3000]

Maybe eventually? do you appeal to faith that someday you will have answers?

does it matter? yes for several reasons. Truth exists, morality exists, logic exists, the universe is uniform, it has set laws in place to maintain its uniformity. You are a part of that creation, you have been given all the things necessary to know your creator. So then you are without excuse before God. Currently you stand opposed to God by nature, but God being rich in grace and mercy has given man a way to be reconciled with him. This is through repentance and faith in Jesus, who was born of a woman, under the law and was obedient to death on the cross to make an atonement for man's sins against the God they know. 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:07 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Michael Stanfill]

You have no proof

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

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[Martin Atkins]

I don't know if we have a 21 gram soul. I bet not though. I think the whole concept of a soul is rather wild and bizzare. Huh? We have a soul. I don't even know how to respond to that. What? Are you serious? We are part supernatural sort of like a superman within. That is weird thinking.

If you want to believe it, I am okay with that. Don't be offended and angry if I don't believe such a bizarre concept in my humble opinion.

[Michael Stanfill]

Your buybull says a lot of crap.  Nonbelievers just don't buy the bull

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

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[Michael Stanfill]

All you have done is come on here telling lies about nonbelievers. 

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

Maybe eventually? do you appeal to faith that someday you will have answers?

does it matter? yes for several reasons. Truth exists, morality exists, logic exists, the universe is uniform, it has set laws in place to maintain its uniformity. You are a part of that creation, you have been given all the things necessary to know your creator. So then you are without excuse before God. Currently you stand opposed to God by nature, but God being rich in grace and mercy has given man a way to be reconciled with him. This is through repentance and faith in Jesus, who was born of a woman, under the law and was obedient to death on the cross to make an atonement for man's sins against the God they know. 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:07 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Matt Germany]

dmday,

You are correct in your assertion that I am, in fact, not an evolutionary biologist nor evolutionary anthropologist nor an expert in any related field.  Well said!

However, I'm not sure I follow your argument that my reasoning is circular in arguing that our morality is probably a byproduct of evolution.

I'm further confused by your assertion that I have no grounds to say something is moral or immoral (speaking of circular arguments, couldn't I counter by saying, "You have no grounds to say that I have no grounds to say what is and is not moral.").  Is that the bible talking again, or did you pray about it and get some help straight from the big man on this one?

If you keep using evidence that the other side doesn't acknowledge as evidence (whether you cite god, the bible or your uncle, you're making an appeal to authority--a logical fallacy), how far do you really think your going to get with this discussion?

--Matt

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[Michael Stanfill]

Religion = Superstition

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

Maybe eventually? do you appeal to faith that someday you will have answers?

does it matter? yes for several reasons. Truth exists, morality exists, logic exists, the universe is uniform, it has set laws in place to maintain its uniformity. You are a part of that creation, you have been given all the things necessary to know your creator. So then you are without excuse before God. Currently you stand opposed to God by nature, but God being rich in grace and mercy has given man a way to be reconciled with him. This is through repentance and faith in Jesus, who was born of a woman, under the law and was obedient to death on the cross to make an atonement for man's sins against the God they know. 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:07 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Michael Stanfill]

This is nothing but a variation of the god of the gaps argument.  It's an appeal to ignorance.

We have yet to be given any proof of this biblical god or any reason to worship it by dmday.

All that has been presented is insults to nonbelievers' knowledge, logic and reasoning.

Trying to present an negative approach via absence of evidence does not get you anywhere. 

Instead of attacking nonbelievers give us your proof of your deity or at least a reason to follow your worldview.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

Maybe eventually? do you appeal to faith that someday you will have answers?

does it matter? yes for several reasons. Truth exists, morality exists, logic exists, the universe is uniform, it has set laws in place to maintain its uniformity. You are a part of that creation, you have been given all the things necessary to know your creator. So then you are without excuse before God. Currently you stand opposed to God by nature, but God being rich in grace and mercy has given man a way to be reconciled with him. This is through repentance and faith in Jesus, who was born of a woman, under the law and was obedient to death on the cross to make an atonement for man's sins against the God they know. 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:15:24 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:07 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Michael Stanfill]

It would not matter. Either way it would not provide any proof of your deity.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 9:19 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

[Matt Germany]

dmday,

No, I don't "appeal to faith that someday I will have answers."  Your question, as I understood it, was whether all knowledge can be gotten through empiricism.

Nowhere in my brief answer did I invoke "faith."

No one (well, no one, except for the Flying Spaghetti Monster, that is) can say with certainty how far science and technology will advance in the future, hence my answer, "maybe eventually."

The second part of your response is a bit more befuddling.  Whether empirical data can explain every facet of the universe and consciousness, I was asking whether that mattered to your argument and why.  It seems like a pretty major logical and psychical leap to go from that question straight to 'therefore GOD!'

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[Orson Zedd]

Because they are objectively and independently verifiable as tools for
divining the truth. If I perform an experiment in controlled
circumstances, anyone can replicate that experiment. What you can't
replicate is some wishy washy deity who goes around with some plan for
the universe that doesn't make any sense, has no consistency, and that
everyone has some different belief about.

So yes, atheists can justify it. I just did.

On 7/1/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You presuppose that man's sense are fallible all the time. While man is not
>
> omniscient, God gave man the ability to perceive through creation and in
> his innate nature to know truth. The problem is the atheist cannot account
> or justify knowledge, logic or morality. Since all knowledge must be
> verified as true through a greater authority, I can have certainty about
> the world in which I live in.
>
> Question: How do you account or justify your knowledge, logic or reason?
>
> On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge,
>>
>> more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of
>>
>> science?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000

>> <dmda...@gmail.com<javascript:>

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[dmday3000]

ahhh I think I understand your question. Because it is evident that there are some things that all men know, they are universal. Reason , morality, desire for knowledge are all universal and innate. I can account for this, for why they are universal and where they came from. We all know and understand that order does not come from disorder, but yet this is what the atheist puts forward as an answer for  why these things are. The answer that these things are, simply because they are is inadequate.

Question: Is it possible that an eternal being that is all powerful could give its creatures the ability to know and perceive its creator? 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:24:47 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

I wasn't trying to be crass.  I am unable to answer your question as to whether all knowledge is attainable by empirical means. I gave the best answer I could offer.

Would you mind answering my question as to whether that matters for your argument and why?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Matt Germany <matt.ge...@gmail.com> wrote:

Maybe, eventually.

Does that matter?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:07 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical means?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[dmday3000]

ahh! ad hominnen! the true indication that you have no answer to my questions, no argument to offer! 

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[Orson Zedd]

Yeah, it can. But keep in mind that not all questions have answers.
Some questions are "made up bullshit"

On 7/1/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Back to my previous question: Can all knowledge be gained through empirical
>
> means?
>
> On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge,
>>
>> more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of
>>
>> science?
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000

>> <dmda...@gmail.com<javascript:>

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[Orson Zedd]

I want to address the question of morality, because you seem to think
that only humans have morality. I think this is false, because
animals don't just kill each other wantonly. They have codes of
ethics built into themselves, different from our own, but developed to
serve them. We're very condescending to other animals, because
they're unlike us, but you need to recognize that morality is not a
consistent or wholly human concept.

On 7/1/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> <javascript:>
>> *To:* memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 1, 2013 7:52 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: Reason

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[dmday3000]

Lies? then you must know what truth is and how to discern it from lies, tell me how do you do this?

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[Michael Stanfill]

Your entire religion is based on lies.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

[Michael Stanfill]

You have no valid argument.  All you are doing is building a strawman.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 10:19 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

ahh! ad hominnen! the true indication that you have no answer to my questions, no argument to offer! 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:35:10 PM UTC-5, Michael Stanfill wrote:

Your buybull says a lot of crap.  Nonbelievers just don't buy the bull

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>

[dmday3000]

actually I came here to not give a defense for my beliefs but to ask atheists to defend their's

I apologize that you were insulted, that was not my intent in the least. 

If you seek proof then please tell  me what proof would be sufficient to believe? I already know that no amount of proof will be adequate, scripture has already told me that much about unbelievers. (Luke 16:31)

I did not intend to attack your beliefs but to simply defend them. My hope was to uncover the gaps in your own knowledge, and that you would repent of your unbelief and come to a knowledge of the truth. 

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[dmday3000]

"codes of ethics built into themselves"

did this building happen by chance? or was it by design?

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[dmday3000]

Your answer seems contradictory, if I understand it correctly... 

You say all knowledge can be gained through empirical means and then say not all questions have answers. This appears to be a logical contradiction, if all knowledge is gained through empiricism then it would follow that all questions can be answered through empiricism. 

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[Michael Stanfill]

"You are a part of that creation" First Lie, until you prove otherwise.

"you have been given all the things necessary to know your creator"Spin: open your mind until your brain falls out. And, still no evidence of your creator

"Currently you stand opposed to God by nature" Second Lie. Why oppose a deity that doesn't exist?

"God being rich in grace and mercy"  Third Lie.  This is the homicidal, fratricidal, infanticidal, genocidal, immoral god of the buybull. Hence, no grace or mercy there.

"This is through repentance and faith in Jesus, who was born of a woman, under the law and was obedient to death on the cross to make an atonement for man's sins against the God they know.:

These are the biggest lies of all.  There is no sin, no need of any repentance of non-existence sins, and jeebus never existed. Hence no need for your religion.

Sin =

S = Self

I = Imposed

N = Nonsense

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

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[Michael Stanfill]

Atheism is not a belief system, so there is nothing to defend. It simply means "without god". Plain and Simple!

If you add anything to the basic definition of atheism, then you are merely making a strawman argument.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

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[Orson Zedd]

Neither. It was evolution.

On 7/1/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "codes of ethics built into themselves"
>
> did this building happen by chance? or was it by design?
>
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:20:37 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> I want to address the question of morality, because you seem to think
>> that only humans have morality. I think this is false, because
>> animals don't just kill each other wantonly. They have codes of
>> ethics built into themselves, different from our own, but developed to
>> serve them. We're very condescending to other animals, because
>> they're unlike us, but you need to recognize that morality is not a
>> consistent or wholly human concept.
>>

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[Matt Germany]

All of you are blasphemers!

EVERYONE KNOWS HIS HOLY NOODLINESS, THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER CREATED EVERYTHING IN THE UNIVERSE!

There's a book of scripture that says so and everything.

So there.

Game, set and match against Christianity and atheism.

--Matt

[Orson Zedd]

Right, because not every question has an answer. Why are we here?
That implies that there's a causal reason we're here. But that's not
necessarily the case. So no, it does not follow that if all knowledge
is gained through empiricism that all questions have answers.

I have a question for you. "What is murpersh"? Go on, answer it.

On 7/1/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your answer seems contradictory, if I understand it correctly...
>
> You say all knowledge can be gained through empirical means and then say
> not all questions have answers. This appears to be a logical contradiction,
>
> if all knowledge is gained through empiricism then it would follow that all
>
> questions can be answered through empiricism.
>
>
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:20:18 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> Yeah, it can. But keep in mind that not all questions have answers.
>> Some questions are "made up bullshit"
>>

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[dmday3000]

"First Lie, until you prove otherwise"

How can you discern truth from lies in a random world that came to be by chance? What proof would be adequate for you? We see the world very differently you and I. I've know how I can know truth, but what I don't know is how you can know truth.

 

"Spin: open your mind until your brain falls out. And, still no evidence of your creator"

          I'm not really sure what that means, but again what evidence is sufficient for you? The fact that we can form logical thoughts that the world is uniform, that we can desire to know needs to be justified. What are the preconditions for ineligibility in your world?

"Second Lie. Why oppose a deity that doesn't exist?"

          A lie presupposes truth, how do you account for truth? If you are so sure that God doesn't exists then why engage my in argumentation at all? In your worldview I am just a biomass acting on chemical reactions. What difference does it make?

"Third Lie.  This is the homicidal, fratricidal, infanticidal, genocidal, immoral god of the buybull. Hence, no grace or mercy there."

            Interesting that you would insult the foundation  of my beliefs after complaining of my insulting yours. Although in reality you have no moral foundation to complain about insults because the world came to be by random factors, chemical reactions. Something from nothing. But since you protest then that betrays the reality that in your soul, conscience that you know morality and you know where it came from. Is this not evidence?

 

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[dmday3000]

If it was evolution then can you account for morality, logic or knowledge? For example why is it ok to kill an animal for food but not a human for food?

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[Matt Germany]

dmday,

"If you are so sure that God doesn't exists then why engage my in argumentation at all?"

Isn't that exactly what you asked all of us in this forum to do?

What sort of game are you playing, sir?

'Hello, I'm a Christian, and I'd like to talk to about why I'm right about the universe and why you're all wrong.  Wait, why are all of you arguing with me?'

So, let me see if I've got this straight:  If we agree with you, then there's obviously no point in arguing with you, but if we disagree, then we also shouldn't argue with you?  Wouldn't it be easier for you to have simply not started all of this if you didn't want people to disagree with you, or were you that cocksure in your arguments that you were just certain all of these atheists, freethinkers and the like would all change their minds?

--Matt

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[bonobonation]

Hey dmday3000, you are a lot of fun. How do you know that God is a moral being (am I right in assuming it is the Christian God? I have heard this argument in support of other ethical monotheist gods so I think only polite to enquire if you are a Muslim or Sikh or some such)?

[Michael Stanfill]

" If you are so sure that God doesn't exists" - Another Lie!  I never said that.  It's all up to you to prove it, but you seem to be incapable.

" Interesting that you would insult the foundation  of my beliefs "Everything I said is in your guidebook.  I was merely stating the obvious about your alleged luvable deity. 

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Michael Stanfill <mpsta...@yahoo.com>

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

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[Procyon]

On Monday, July 1, 2013 9:32:20 PM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

actually I came here to not give a defense for my beliefs but to ask atheists to defend their's

I apologize that you were insulted, that was not my intent in the least. 

If you seek proof then please tell  me what proof would be sufficient to believe? I already know that no amount of proof will be adequate, scripture has already told me that much about unbelievers. (Luke 16:31)

This is completely untrue.  There is a certain amount of evidence that would cause almost every nonbeliever to believe in the Judeo-Christian God (Bertrand Russell explains his example of an adequate level in one of his essays).  For just about all nonbelievers, that evidence simply doesn't exist.

In my experience it is much more common to find believers with which no amount of proof would cause them to believe another explanation for the creation of the Earth, human life, another possible outcome following death, etc.

Procyon

[Orson Zedd]

Alright so you want us to defend our beliefs. Here's my defense:

I'm not stupid enough to believe anything without substantial
empirical evidence supporting the claim. If your threshold is low,
that's your business, but I've got a pretty high bar for what I'll
admit as realistic evidence.

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[dmday3000]

Matt, 

Sorry I missed this message earlier...got lost in all the replies. 

I appreciate your level headedness and sound reasoning. I will attempt to respond to you. 

" morality is probably a byproduct of evolution."

                          that the real problem there your foundation is a probability

"your assertion that I have no grounds to say something is moral or immoral"

                          you don't because your foundation for morality is probable, therefore you can make no moral claims at all outside of yourself.

"evidence that the other side doesn't acknowledge as evidence"

                          I am aware that you will dismiss any evidence I offer. That is why my goal is to perform an internal critique of the atheist's world view in view of logic, morality and knowledge. So far no one here has been able to offer a justification for any of those things. Other than that they simply are...would you accept a similar response from me?

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:37:02 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

dmday,

You are correct in your assertion that I am, in fact, not an evolutionary biologist nor evolutionary anthropologist nor an expert in any related field.  Well said!

However, I'm not sure I follow your argument that my reasoning is circular in arguing that our morality is probably a byproduct of evolution.

I'm further confused by your assertion that I have no grounds to say something is moral or immoral (speaking of circular arguments, couldn't I counter by saying, "You have no grounds to say that I have no grounds to say what is and is not moral.").  Is that the bible talking again, or did you pray about it and get some help straight from the big man on this one?

If you keep using evidence that the other side doesn't acknowledge as evidence (whether you cite god, the bible or your uncle, you're making an appeal to authority--a logical fallacy), how far do you really think your going to get with this discussion?

--Matt

On Mon, Jul 1, 2013 at 8:18 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

"but I'm pretty sure we're moral"  you can only be pretty sure because you deny the God that has established morals by his very nature. You have no grounds on which to say anything is moral or not moral. On the other hand I can appeal outside my circle for morality. Your appeal is circular in itself. 

Question: The Bible says the unbeliever has become futile in his thinking, is it not true that circular thinking is futile?

on the other hand...this thread is becoming difficult to manage! so many responders :)

On Monday, July 1, 2013 7:27:19 PM UTC-5, Matt wrote:

Yeah, I've got to agree here.  You're making some pretty broad claims without (so much as I can tell) any underlying evidence to support them.

I'm an atheist, and I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that mathematical laws are because they are (a+b=b+a and on and on).  I don't feel like I need to scratch my head and double-check math against the bible to make sure it works.

How does "the atheist" justify morality?  Over time, hominids realized things worked out better if we weren't all dicks to eachother (there's maybe an interesting debate for Hobbesians vs. Rawlsians, but I'm pretty sure we're moral because more of our predecessors with the propensity for morality passed on their genes).

The knowledge question is the only one of any real interest to me.  When I first saw this thread open up, I thought perhaps we'd see empiricism juxtaposed against phenomenology (having taken a few courses in Continental philosophy in college, I thought that sort of thing might be pretty neat, since there are a lot of sharp people in this group whose opinions I respect).  I can see now that this was wishful thinking.

Instead, I fear this discussion may not have the legs I'd hoped, that instead it may boil down to "well, the bible (or God) says this" and "well, we don't put a lot of stock in those sources."

Cheers,
Matt  

On 07/01/2013 07:04 PM, Michael Stanfill wrote:

Hogwash!

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Reason

You presuppose that man's sense are fallible all the time. While man is not omniscient, God gave man the ability to perceive through creation and in his innate nature to know truth. The problem is the atheist cannot account or justify knowledge, logic or morality. Since all knowledge must be verified as true through a greater authority, I can have certainty about the world in which I live in. 

Question: How do you account or justify your knowledge, logic or reason?

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 6:14:14 PM UTC-5, Orson Zedd wrote:

So you trust your fallible senses more than the instruments of knowledge, more than the peer review process, more than the self correcting nature of science?

On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 5:42 PM, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

All useful knowledge can.  If there's no empirical evidence for something, you're basically debating the existence of hoodoo bears.  My question to you is, if you don't use empirical evidence, how do you verify if something is true?

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence?
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

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[Matt Germany]

dmday,

I think you're a bit confused here. I use probably, because I'm not an expert in the field. I don't have all (nor a lot) of information on the matter, and I don't like to talk out of my ass when I can help it.

I find it comical that you suddenly demand such a high standard of evidence when your "good book" is about all you've offered for any of your views.

Like I said, I'm not an expert. I or Google can offer you plenty of articles written by biologists and philosophers (though I get the feeling you're not that interested in reading any evidence that isn't "god-breathed").

In my experience, Christianists love to jump on words like "theory" and "probably" when people talk about science, but this generally stems from their self-imposed ignorance.

Sociobiologists and evolutionary biologists have a lot of interesting ideas on where morality comes from. Ask, and I'll send you links. But I'm sure you're perfectly happy to go to Jesuspedia and feed me it's one-line answer to every question rather than try learn about anything. After all, shouting "god did it!" over and over has already swayed so many of us.

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[dmday3000]

That's correct, the Christian God, btw there is only one God. By what moral standard would you judge God moral? You need to understand that I believe that God is the ultimate standard for truth, morality etc. What is your ultimate standard?

[dmday3000]

Once again...is all knowledge gained through empirical evidence?

I will help you answer, no it is not, some knowledge is axiomatic, it is innate. Evolution cannot account for that reality. All knowledge is gained through information. I can justify my knowledge, because the fear of the Lord is the beginning of all knowledge.

[dmday3000]

Thanks for the interaction Matt. If you are fine with probabilities then I will be fine with my certainties. You've heard the Gospel I trust in my arguments, if not ask me and I will answer.

[dmday3000]

Anyone care to answer this question?

[Martin Atkins]

There is more than one god (or god concept). There are literally thousands of god concepts. The monotheistic concept of god didn't develop until recently. Even in the Genesis story, the original version (wording) referred to more than one god because polytheism was accepted at the time Genesis was written.

You are an atheist to thousands of gods (denying those gods' very existence) and chose to be non-atheistic to only one god--the Christian god. You really do understand how to be an atheist thousands of times over. You should apply your atheistic mindset to just one more god.

[Michael Stanfill]

Everyone is probably waiting for you to insert your unproven god into your process.  It's inevitable that you will.

Perhaps you would get more answers on a philosophy forum where things like empiricism matter.

---

From: dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com>
To: memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: Reason

Anyone care to answer this question?

[Orson Zedd]

I'd like it if you could provide some evidence for this really really
really huge claim.

[Orson Zedd]

First of all, you say there's a god, but why only one? Shouldn't
there be a lot of gods? Why not?

Second, you presume we have to have an ultimate standard. I find this
is a problem with the heavily religious, an inability to understand
that people with different beliefs think differently than they do.

On 7/2/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Shanon White]

There's something about the language of "worshiping logic" or "worshiping reason" that rubs me the wrong way.  We don't "worship" anything necessarily.  At least not as part of being an athiest.  

It's like someone is so deep in the paradigm of religion that they have to fit athiesm into their model... "you must be worshiping something..." 

Reminds me of when a friend of mine, with a healthy guy level of perv-ness first saw Youtube... "What kind of porn is this?" he asked!

[Orson Zedd]

Indeed, I'm starting to get a clear picture of who you are, dmday3000.
I thought you might be enlightened philosophically when you came
looking for a discussion, but I now know that's not the case. You're
far from enlightened.

Let me guess as to your story. You're a religious zealot. You've,
perhaps recently, come into faith, and you think your answers are
universal Truths that no one can ignore, and that anyone who does is
delusional. You think everyone sees the world like you do, and that
if someone doesn't believe in God, they're being willfully ignorant,
and nothing they say can convince you otherwise.

You came here for one of two reasons, to feel selfrighteous or to
genuinely try to save some of us from some imaginary Hell that you
believe in so surely it must exist. You also came here ill prepared
because you don't really seem to understand us. You probably don't
know of any atheists in your day to day life, so you've come prepared
to fight a strawman of your own making. This faux atheist you've
practiced with every time you've had some doubt about the veracity of
your religion. But something wasn't right, it wasn't able to
challenge you. Now you're challenged and you're falling back on the
same arguments you made against that straw man, even though they're
not applicable or true and you can clearly see it. You simply are
afraid to acknowledge that you might not have all the answers. I can
say with some degree of certainty that you don't, and that the answers
you do have are, at best, lacking.

OZ

[Martin Atkins]

dmday3000:

 

I thought that we already answered it.  I guess our answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.

 

Is empiricism the only way to knowing? No, empiricism cannot tell you everything about personal experiences; however, it can determine what circumstances likely cause those experiences and how those experiences frequently occur.  However, again, you can't get inside a person's skin.  For example, a neurologist and physiologist may be able to explain how a person experiences eating fried pickled pig tongue.  However, if the neurologist or physiologist never ate pickled pig tongue, she doesn't know what the person experienced nor the shear joy of eating this wonderful food. Plus, if the neurologist or physiologist doesn't have the identical anatomy, her experience of eating pickled pig tongue may be slightly different. 

 

Now religions often have bizarre claims that, first, are supported by "personal experiences" (frequently or seemingly psychotic delusions) and, second, a blatant denial of empirical findings (such as a belief in (a) flying horse-like creates in Islam; (b) zombies such as Jesus Christ, (c) magical disappearing golden tablets from an angel in Mormonism, (d) rebirth of people as frogs in Buddhism, (e) and so forth).  Again, religious beliefs sound a bit wacky to atheists.   However, you have right to your delusions but, please, do not get upset when we refuse to share in your delusional religious beliefs.  Or don't feel personally attacked when atheists state your religious delusions in public and call it what it is.   Zombies don't exist.  Jesus (if he existed) never rose from the dead.  Dead people are, well, dead.  Death doesn't equal life.  That is irrational and frankly delusional. 

[bonobonation]

Hey dmday3000, I have had a better read through now and yes I see that you do indeed worship Jesus as though he was a god. I think people are a little frustrated with you because they are finding it difficult to get you out from behind the circular reasoning that is the hallmark of this particular bit logic. This might become more clear to you if you lay out your claim sylogistically. Either way you are assuming the existance of a god (in your case an ethical monotheist god) in order to prove that the god exists. By the by, even if your argument was sound you would still have a lot of work to do to get to the existance of a single Western style god. As you are presenting it the argument fails for the above reason. What you would have to do is show that objective and absolute morals exist in the world first, I can see where you have attempted to do this and I just think that you might want to swap out your Socratic approach for something a little more open and analytical.

Of course, while there may indeed be universal moral truths, I doubt you would be able to show us any absolute and objective moral truths. Still I applaud your efforts and hope you are seking truth rather than trying to teach it.

On Saturday, 29 June 2013 16:15:00 UTC+10, dmday3000 wrote:

Hello, 

I'm a Christian and am looking for an atheist (just one) to interact with. I found your group through meetup.com. I'm interested in engaging in a debate through this thread, or email. 

Subject: Reason, subjective or objective?

Thanks

dmday3000

 

[Tom]

The first thing that jumped out at me was the first question.  I have a big problem with questions framed in terms of absolutes or like "do ALL men have access to Reason?" or "What's the perfect investment?".  We don't operate in the natural world in terms of absolutes.  I think our criminal jury trial is a great example of humans having to live within the boundaries of reality.  To convict, 12 people have to come together and decide on what they think happened - to convict they must find the events likely - beyond a reasonable doubt - not absolutely.

Science and empirical knowledge are not interested in absolutes for good reason.  It has no interest in grey or murky questions that cannot be tested via experiment - like "what is the perfect definition of love?"  Empiric knowledge is defined as is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation. This with the scientific method gives us tools that consistently escape the limitations of human bias and error.

I believe day3000's point is that there are limits to empirical knowledge and indeed I believe that is true.  With a reasoned or logical mind, you have to be comfortable living with doubt and different degrees of certainty vs. absolute knowledge.

I guess the further point is that believe in an ultimate supernatural being IS complete and leaves nothing or

 very little unanswered.  Which could be very reassuring.

Yet, empirical knowledge has a razor sharp success within it's span of control.  Our modern world is built on the success of the scientific method.

 

I have to read.  I have to elevate myself to understand the world vs. have someone else tell me how everything is.Many find it much more fun and more interesting to NOT have everything defined and explained for them!   

The "Age of Reason" was not so called because ALL men had reason.  Rather a select few used reason to alter the world.  Even in the religious sphere, think of Martin Luther looking at the corruption of the Catholic church which had purported access to absolute truth.  Yet he used his reason and knowledge to nail up the 95 Thesis and change world history.

dmday3000 , I think you might find the Nobel physicist Feynman gave a beautiful explanation of this in a 4 min vid here,

HTH,

Tom

 

--

[Tom]

BTW - Alot of this discussion is very interesting and similar to an online class several of us are taking:

24.00x Introduction to Philosophy: God, Knowledge and Consciousness

 It's offered for free this fall via Harvard/MIT @ edx.org.

 

[dmday3000]

That you ask for evidence shows your dependence on the uniformity of the universe. You assume that tomorrow will be like yesterday, otherwise it would make no sense to ask for evidence. In a world where anything could change at any minute, where there are no universal laws that were put into place by a lawgiver, you would have no guarantee that my evidence's meaning would not change the next minute. 

The fact is, that no amount of evidence I can give will convince of any truth, you will simply interpret that evidence through your own presuppostions about the world. 

I have already proven to you that not everything in the world that exists can be proven through empirical evidence. Can you offer to me empirical evidence for the existence of logic? By no means! Yet you and I both appeal to the same laws of logic, as do all men. so then it is apparent that logic is universal and immaterial. 

So what kind of evidence would you like to see for God who is spirit and immaterial?

On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 2:37:05 PM UTC, Orson Zedd wrote:

I'd like it if you could provide some evidence for this really really
really huge claim.

On 7/2/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Once again...is all knowledge gained through empirical evidence?
>
> I will help you answer,  no it is not, some knowledge is axiomatic,  it is
> innate.  Evolution cannot account for that reality. All knowledge is gained
> through information.  I can justify my knowledge, because the fear of the
> Lord is the beginning of all knowledge.
>
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[dmday3000]

If there is no ultimate standard for truth, morality and logic. then how can you have a problem with the "heavily religious"? Indeed how can you have a problem with anything anyone does?

"First of all, you say there's a god, but why only one?"

God's word is my ultimate standard, quite simply God says in his word that there is only one God, there are no gods before him and none after him. 

"Shouldn't there be a lot of gods?  Why not?"

See my previous answer. Why not? How many supreme beings can there be? the very definition of supreme suggests only one. 

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[dmday3000]

I thought that we already answered it.

I may have missed it in the thread somewhere, I'v gotten lost in the replies a few times so far!

 

Is empiricism the only way to knowing? No, empiricism cannot tell you everything about personal experiences

Agreed, but I'm not after personal experiences at all. I'm after your foundations and justification for logic, knowledge and morality. Empiricism alone cannot justify their existence. 

but, please, do not get upset when we refuse to share in your delusional religious beliefs

er I'm not upset...anyway I didn't type with that emotion. Arguing via text is difficult at best, your missing the majority of communication via eye contact, gestures tone etc.

[Matt Germany]

And where, pray tell, did this god come from?

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[dmday3000]

"We don't operate in the natural world in terms of absolutes"

Would you agree that this is an absolute truth claim?  This statement seems to refute itself. 

"empirical knowledge has a razor sharp success within it's span of control"

this would be the material world correct? 

"Yet he used his reason and knowledge to nail up the 95 Thesis and change world history."

Agreed, however, Luther's reason and knowledge were based upon reading the Greek text and understanding the words in their original context. His ultimate standard was the word of God. 

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[dmday3000]

To fully answer your question you must understand man's relationship to God. Man is part of the created universe, time, space, all things material and immaterial are part of that created universe. Man is finite and bound within the created order, for example time, we cannot effect time in any way, the next second comes and goes and we have no effect on it. God on the other hand exists outside of time and the created universe, all beings in the created universe exist because of something else. For example I exist, with certain conditions, temperature, air, food, gravity, pressure all must be available to me in the right amounts for me to exist. God on the other hand needs none of those things, when asked who he was God replied, I am that I am. 

To ask where did God come from you must presuppose that an infinite eternal being would have a beginning. The thought in itself is self refuting, the very definition of God's character precludes the question entirely. 

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 6:56:46 AM UTC, Matt wrote:

And where, pray tell, did this god come from?

I thought that we already answered it.
>
> I may have missed it in the thread somewhere, I'v gotten lost in the replies a few times so far!

 
Is empiricism the only way to knowing? No, empiricism cannot tell you everything about personal experiences
>
> Agreed, but I'm not after personal experiences at all. I'm after your foundations and justification for logic, knowledge and morality. Empiricism alone cannot justify their existence. 

but, please, do not get upset when we refuse to share in your delusional religious beliefs
>
> er I'm not upset...anyway I didn't type with that emotion. Arguing via text is difficult at best, your missing the majority of communication via eye contact, gestures tone etc.

 
On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 4:39:09 PM UTC, Martin Atkins wrote:
>
> dmday3000:
>  
> I thought that we already answered it.  I guess our answer wasn't what you wanted to hear.
>  
> Is empiricism the only way to knowing? No, empiricism cannot tell you everything about personal experiences; however, it can determine what circumstances likely cause those experiences and how those experiences frequently occur.  However, again, you can't get inside a person's skin.  For example, a neurologist and physiologist may be able to explain how a person experiences eating fried pickled pig tongue.  However, if the neurologist or physiologist never ate pickled pig tongue, she doesn't know what the person experienced nor the shear joy of eating this wonderful food. Plus, if the neurologist or physiologist doesn't have the identical anatomy, her experience of eating pickled pig tongue may be slightly different. 
>  
> Now religions often have bizarre claims that, first, are supported by "personal experiences" (frequently or seemingly psychotic delusions) and, second, a blatant denial of empirical findings (such as a belief in (a) flying horse-like creates in Islam; (b) zombies such as Jesus Christ, (c) magical disappearing golden tablets from an angel in Mormonism, (d) rebirth of people as frogs in Buddhism, (e) and so forth).  Again, religious beliefs sound a bit wacky to atheists.   However, you have right to your delusions but, please, do not get upset when we refuse to share in your delusional religious beliefs.  Or don't feel personally attacked when atheists state your religious delusions in public and call it what it is.   Zombies don't exist.  Jesus (if he existed) never rose from the dead.  Dead people are, well, dead.  Death doesn't equal life.  That is irrational and frankly delusional. 
>  
>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:19:03 AM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:
>>
>> Anyone care to answer this question?

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[dmday3000]

I may have missed this response earlier. 

there is always the possibility they will be wrong

Seems contradictory to me, you're saying that you could be wrong about everything you know. If you trust your senses but they could be wrong then it follows that there is nothing you could know for certain. 

I find it strange that you are implying that our senses, even if God-given, give us the ability to know God

Does it seem likely to you that God when he created would not give his creation the ability to know him? 

 I think it is obvious that logic and reason will still exist.

So then logic and reason are eternal and immaterial. Can you justify their existence based on a world that came into being through chance?

 

 

On Monday, July 1, 2013 1:43:01 AM UTC, Procyon wrote:

On Sunday, June 30, 2013 5:42:32 PM UTC-5, dmday3000 wrote:

    What empirical evidence can you offer for the existence of logic? Did you use empirical evidence when you decided that you can only know things through evidence? 
     Answer: Something is true when it comports with reality, how do I know what is real? Because I trust my senses and reasoning and the information I gain from them, how can I trust my senses and reasoning? Because God created man in his image, he gave man the ability to know his creator.

You trust your senses based on experience and logic.  Trusting them doesn't mean you expect them to be 100% accurate, there is always the possibility they will be wrong.  In addition, there is always the possibility that what you are experiencing is really some simulation and your brain is in a vat, but I think this is very unlikely.

I find it strange that you are implying that our senses, even if God-given, give us the ability to know God, when in fact more than 99.99% of believers (in my experience) don't cite any of the 5 senses as what gave them the ability to know God or to continue to know God (unless you were implying that reason gives man the ability to conclude that God EXISTS).

As noted in another post, it's not just whether logic and reason existed before humans, you can also ask whether logic and reason will exist long after humans are gone. I think it is obvious that logic and reason will still exist.  I think in billions of years, if the Universe is still expanding as we know it, and all of the other characteristics are the same, that some other intelligent lifeforms will also develop a theory of a Big Bang.  That's logic and reason, but may or may not be the true way the Universe began.

This is beyond my expertise, but I think this article may also be of some use in these types of discussions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic%E2%80%93synthetic_distinction

Procyon

  

[dmday3000]

This might become more clear to you if you lay out your claim sylogistically

sorry, I'm not much for syllogisms, to me they over simplify the subject.

 What you would have to do is show that objective and absolute morals exist in the world first

Good point and I agree. 

 

while there may indeed be universal moral truths

If there are universal moral truths would it be beneficial to seek those truths and to know them? Is it wrong to lie, cheat, murder, steal? In your opinion was it wrong for the German people to systematically work to eradicate the Jews and undesirable people?

Is it wrong for the Jews to oppress the Palestinian people now?

[bonobonation]

One of my favourite writers is Thomas Aquinas, he had a way of with ideas that was elegant, he had a graceful economy with words and often opened up new vistas of understanding through the use of a bit of syllogistic reasoning. In fact much of your reasoning comes directly from his pen and if you ever get the chance to read it, the Summa Theologica is well, it is masterful. Still, he used syllogisms as a way of organising his thoughts and staying on track, as a way of avoiding duplicity and obfuscation and as a method of deductively reasoning his way to god.

Yours is an a priori argument, you have already admitted that no amount of inductive reasoning or empirical evidence can bring a person to a state of knowledge of God, true, this is self-evident in my opinion. God is a matter of faith, belief by any other means. Because you are following an
a priori path you are, by necessity, arguing deductively. You are providing the forum with a series of premises and conclusions, albeit in the guise of questions, either way you are inescapably arguing syllogistically.  You are trying to use reason and logic to support your point. A syllogism would not oversimplify things, it would force you to be as open and honest and, hopefully as elegant, as Mr. Aquinas who, by the by, has been here before all of us. Oh, and equally elegantly refuted. Remeber, it is good to be simple and bad to obfuscate, it will help you find truth much more reliably.

So, can you name one objective and absolute moral truth?

As far as universal truths are concerned I would consider either rape or genocide good options.

Oh, and I am very interested in how you know (I get that you believe it, this is not the question) that your god is morally perfect?

[Orson Zedd]

What kind of standard Let's see, how about any kind of physical
proof, because frankly if you're telling me he's spirit and immaterial
and also simultaneously can interact with the universe that means, you
guessed it, he's not spirit and immaterial. That means there's some
naturalistic way to detect him or his presence, and if you can't then
he's not interacting with the universe or doesn't exist.

On 7/3/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That you ask for evidence shows your dependence on the uniformity of the
> universe. You assume that tomorrow will be like yesterday, otherwise it
> would make no sense to ask for evidence. In a world where anything could
> change at any minute, where there are no universal laws that were put into
> place by a lawgiver, you would have no guarantee that my evidence's meaning
>
> would not change the next minute.
>
> The fact is, that no amount of evidence I can give will convince of any
> truth, you will simply interpret that evidence through your own
> presuppostions about the world.
>
> I have already proven to you that not everything in the world that exists
> can be proven through empirical evidence. Can you offer to me empirical
> evidence for the existence of logic? By no means! Yet you and I both appeal
>
> to the same laws of logic, as do all men. so then it is apparent that logic
>
> is universal and immaterial.
>
> So what kind of evidence would you like to see for God who is spirit and
> immaterial?
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 2:37:05 PM UTC, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> I'd like it if you could provide some evidence for this really really
>> really huge claim.
>>

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[Orson Zedd]

I have no reason to take your god's word that he's the only god. If
one exists, then I see no reason a plurality of gods shouldn't exist.
That your god says he's the only one means nothing to me because I
don't believe he exists and wouldn't trust him if he did.

On 7/3/13, dmday3000 <dmda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If there is no ultimate standard for truth, morality and logic. then how
> can you have a problem with the "heavily religious"? Indeed how can you
> have a problem with anything anyone does?
>
> "First of all, you say there's a god, but why only one?"
>
> God's word is my ultimate standard, quite simply God says in his word that
> there is only one God, there are no gods before him and none after him.
>
> "Shouldn't there be a lot of gods? Why not?"
>
> See my previous answer. Why not? How many supreme beings can there be? the
> very definition of supreme suggests only one.
>
>
> On Tuesday, July 2, 2013 2:41:53 PM UTC, Orson Zedd wrote:
>>
>> First of all, you say there's a god, but why only one? Shouldn't
>> there be a lot of gods? Why not?
>>
>> Second, you presume we have to have an ultimate standard. I find this
>> is a problem with the heavily religious, an inability to understand
>> that people with different beliefs think differently than they do.
>>

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[Orson Zedd]

To ask where did the universe come from you must presuppose that an
infinite eternal thing would have a beginning.

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[Tom]

"We don't operate in the natural world in terms of absolutes"

Would you agree that this is an absolute truth claim?  This statement seems to refute itself. 

An Absolute truth claim.  I'm not sure what you would define that as.  It's a matter of what has been proven to work and what hasn't with a great degree of accuracy.  Perfect Love can't be tested.  A claim that television call work can be tested.  
But it's always open to finer revision.  As Feynman said, watching Nature is like a great game of chess and you are trying to understand the rules.  You will think you have things down pretty well and then a move like Castling comes along that makes you refine them.   

"empirical knowledge has a razor sharp success within it's span of control"

this would be the material world correct? 

Yes.

"Yet he used his reason and knowledge to nail up the 95 Thesis and change world history."

Agreed, however, Luther's reason and knowledge were based upon reading the Greek text and understanding the words in their original context. His ultimate standard was the word of God. 

Yes Luther switched authority.  But not every Thesis was a literal bible quote.  He also used another 1500-200 years of human knowledge and moral evolution to refute what the church was doing.  He basically switched from the existing Religious Hierarchy having absolute truth to the old Jewish texts.  The Golden calf being worshiped thus switched from being the Catholic Church to being these writings for some.  For many others though, just as powerful is what was called the Book of Nature.  That book has no human intermediary.  That book has the raw hand of God etched into it.  It is the search to uncover and understand the thing he created directly.  And when the direct work of God (the created universe, nature as she is) contradicts the Bronze age understanding of the world in the old texts written by men, for these men, the work of God triumphs.

What you a doing with the Bible reminds me of the Book of Galen in medicine.  This Roman Galen wrote a book on human anatomy.  It became the standard for 1500 years.  When the Age of Enlightenment arrived, people started experimenting.  Looking at Human anatomy.  When people found contradictions with Galen in the natural world they were scoffed at.  Come to find out later Galen's book was based on Baboon anatomy.

If the book disagrees with Nature as it is, the book loses, no matter who wrote it.