The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and Its Aftermath by Susan A. Clancy
3 views
Skip to first unread message
Martin Atkins
Nov 10, 2011, 12:46:36 PM11/10/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and Its
Aftermath by Psychologist Susan A. Clancy
"Few would argue that the experience of sexual abuse is deeply
traumatic for a child. But in this explosive new book, psychologist
Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that it is not
the abuse itself that causes trauma—but rather the narrative that is
later imposed on the abuse experience. Clancy demonstrates that the
most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but
confusion. Because children don’t understand sexual encounters in the
same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators
— something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults. The
professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm
victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
helping them. Path-breaking and controversial, The Trauma Myth
empowers survivors to tell their own stories, and radically reshapes
our understanding of abuse and its aftermath."
http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/046501688X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320944434&sr=8-1
Aftermath by Psychologist Susan A. Clancy
"Few would argue that the experience of sexual abuse is deeply
traumatic for a child. But in this explosive new book, psychologist
Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that it is not
the abuse itself that causes trauma—but rather the narrative that is
later imposed on the abuse experience. Clancy demonstrates that the
most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but
confusion. Because children don’t understand sexual encounters in the
same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators
— something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults. The
professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm
victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
helping them. Path-breaking and controversial, The Trauma Myth
empowers survivors to tell their own stories, and radically reshapes
our understanding of abuse and its aftermath."
http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/046501688X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1320944434&sr=8-1
Clogtowner
Nov 10, 2011, 12:57:55 PM11/10/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - I think I'd agree with that despite it coming from a
psychologist. Unless the child feels pain at the time of the abuse,
confusion is most likely the outcome until someone later points out
what a horrible, dastardly thing has happened.
The trauma would probably be much less, in a society described in our
recent book club read "A Wicked Company," on the island of Tahiti.
> http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...
psychologist. Unless the child feels pain at the time of the abuse,
confusion is most likely the outcome until someone later points out
what a horrible, dastardly thing has happened.
The trauma would probably be much less, in a society described in our
recent book club read "A Wicked Company," on the island of Tahiti.
E. Merger
Nov 10, 2011, 12:58:20 PM11/10/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Intersting and could be a good selection for the book club.
> http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...
Martin Atkins
Nov 10, 2011, 1:09:46 PM11/10/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Yes, I requested it before for book club. It seemed relevant with the
Catholic child sex scandal (when I first recommended it) and now with
the Penn State University sex scandal.
Catholic child sex scandal (when I first recommended it) and now with
the Penn State University sex scandal.
fanofreason
Nov 11, 2011, 12:08:48 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
(The
It is silly to me to think that a therapist would make a "professional
assumption" to a client about the nature of his/her childhood trauma.
That would be like telling a Viet Nam combat vet that since he was in
combat, he has problems with trauma. It depends on the person seeking
help. If a client mentions they have been abused then they obviously
want to tell someone. The therapist's job is to ask clients how THEY
feel about such life experiences and then help them deal with it if
they feel upset by it. How is this "victimizing" the person who wants
to talk about something that they feel injured them?
I haven't read this book, but surely this author is not implying the
opposite? I guess I will have to read it sometime and see.
> http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...
professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can
harm
victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
helping them.)
harm
victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
It is silly to me to think that a therapist would make a "professional
assumption" to a client about the nature of his/her childhood trauma.
That would be like telling a Viet Nam combat vet that since he was in
combat, he has problems with trauma. It depends on the person seeking
help. If a client mentions they have been abused then they obviously
want to tell someone. The therapist's job is to ask clients how THEY
feel about such life experiences and then help them deal with it if
they feel upset by it. How is this "victimizing" the person who wants
to talk about something that they feel injured them?
I haven't read this book, but surely this author is not implying the
opposite? I guess I will have to read it sometime and see.
Martin Atkins
Nov 11, 2011, 1:12:07 AM11/11/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
I think that the author's point is that society or people make a big deal about sex with children so that some children may feel the need (or social pressure) to discuss it with a therapist. In other words, the child (or adult) is responding more to the cultural reinforcement of these negative feelings rather than emotional consequences from the act of sexual contact.
With combat or car crashes, the event itself causes trauma. With fondling, masturbation, etc, the act itself often isn't traumatic; however, people in society may reinforce self-statements about, say, masturbation, being fondled by an adult, etc that evoke powerful feelings--feelings that weren't elicited by the actual sexual event.
I would be willing to bet that if a, say, 45 year old man came in with some issues and at some point--in passing-- told the therapist that he was sexually fondled by his uncle on a weekly basis from, say, age 5 to 7 years old. Many therapists would probe hard and perhaps not believe the 45 yo man if he said that it really wasn't traumatic or even that big of the deal to him .... just confusing. I, again, am just attempting to clarify her arguments and not my arguments.
--
Disclaimer: This MFA Forum is a public site and does not necessarily express the official opinion of Memphis Freethought Alliance, Inc. or its members. Posters on this forum include MFA members as well as non-members. People are encouraged to give their honest opinion about ideas and critique other people's ideas and not to attack people personally. Please keep posts open, honest, and civil.
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum" group.
To post to this group, send email to
memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
memphisfreethoughta...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en
Preston Rogers
Nov 11, 2011, 9:14:25 AM11/11/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Children are very resilient to trauma. They can "snap out of it" much more
quickly than adults, I think. Those defense mechanisms and the
forgetfulness of youth seem to give children a buffer.
quickly than adults, I think. Those defense mechanisms and the
forgetfulness of youth seem to give children a buffer.
Preston
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin Atkins" <mfafree...@gmail.com>
To: "Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum"
<memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 11:46 AM
Subject: The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and
Its Aftermath by Susan A. Clancy
The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and Its
Aftermath by Psychologist Susan A. Clancy
"Few would argue that the experience of sexual abuse is deeply
traumatic for a child. But in this explosive new book, psychologist
Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that it is not
the abuse itself that causes trauma�but rather the narrative that is
later imposed on the abuse experience. Clancy demonstrates that the
most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but
confusion. Because children don�t understand sexual encounters in the
same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators
� something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults. The
professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm
victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
helping them. Path-breaking and controversial, The Trauma Myth
empowers survivors to tell their own stories, and radically reshapes
our understanding of abuse and its aftermath."
--
Carol
Nov 11, 2011, 9:16:45 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Can't emotional trauma be just as devastating as physical trauma?
> >http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Clogtowner
Nov 11, 2011, 9:28:42 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - I'm not sure that they suffer emotional trauma until later
when peer pressure or education introduces it. As stated, they are
confused at first.
> > >http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...Hide quoted text -
when peer pressure or education introduces it. As stated, they are
confused at first.
Carol
Nov 11, 2011, 9:40:15 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I think that most of them know that the abuse is wrong. Aren't they
told not to mention it to anyone else?
> > > >http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
told not to mention it to anyone else?
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Clogtowner
Nov 11, 2011, 10:19:54 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - kids love secrets - some can keep them too!
> > > > >http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...text -
Martin Atkins
Nov 11, 2011, 10:22:26 AM11/11/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Carol,
Of course, emotional trauma can be devastating. The psychologist discusses the research and so forth ... some of the sex offenders give the child candy and otherwise treat the children civilly, aside from the sex. The children are just confused as to why this adult enjoys fondling them while masturbating. And why other adult people get upset when the child talks about it. There is little emotional trauma (the author argues based on the research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to do that. Again, I am attempting to clarify this psychologist's argument. Also, I have not read the entire book...just for the record.
Martin Atkins
Nov 11, 2011, 10:28:16 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
This subject is another one of those sacred cows. My intent was to introduce a book by a professional who works with these children that challenges some of the popular perceptions of the effects of sexual encounters from adults with children.
Orson Zedd
Nov 11, 2011, 11:39:30 AM11/11/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
This does sound like an interesting book to read.
Heh, my memory's good enough to remember my sexual explorations as a child. They aren't traumatic, just embarrassing because of how naïve I was about what I was doing. Still, there was something kind of fun about exploring pleasure for the first time, the excitement made it all the more better. I'm just glad I didn't have access to the internet then, that'd have ruined it.
OZ
Heh, my memory's good enough to remember my sexual explorations as a child. They aren't traumatic, just embarrassing because of how naïve I was about what I was doing. Still, there was something kind of fun about exploring pleasure for the first time, the excitement made it all the more better. I'm just glad I didn't have access to the internet then, that'd have ruined it.
OZ
Clogtowner
Nov 11, 2011, 11:50:58 AM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - yes, I suppose the internet removes some of the mystery for
many.
On Nov 11, 10:39 am, Orson Zedd <nintenfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This does sound like an interesting book to read.
>
> Heh, my memory's good enough to remember my sexual explorations as a
> child. They aren't traumatic, just embarrassing because of how naïve I was
> about what I was doing. Still, there was something kind of fun about
> exploring pleasure for the first time, the excitement made it all the more
> better. I'm just glad I didn't have access to the internet then, that'd
> have ruined it.
>
> OZ
>
many.
On Nov 11, 10:39 am, Orson Zedd <nintenfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> This does sound like an interesting book to read.
>
> Heh, my memory's good enough to remember my sexual explorations as a
> child. They aren't traumatic, just embarrassing because of how naïve I was
> about what I was doing. Still, there was something kind of fun about
> exploring pleasure for the first time, the excitement made it all the more
> better. I'm just glad I didn't have access to the internet then, that'd
> have ruined it.
>
> OZ
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:28 AM, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This subject is another one of those sacred cows. My intent was to
> > introduce a book by a professional who works with these children that
> > challenges some of the popular perceptions of the effects of sexual
> > encounters from adults with children.
> > On Nov 10, 2011 11:46 AM, "Martin Atkins" <mfafreethou...@gmail.com>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > This subject is another one of those sacred cows. My intent was to
> > introduce a book by a professional who works with these children that
> > challenges some of the popular perceptions of the effects of sexual
> > encounters from adults with children.
> > wrote:
>
> >> The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and Its
> >> Aftermath by Psychologist Susan A. Clancy
>
> >> "Few would argue that the experience of sexual abuse is deeply
> >> traumatic for a child. But in this explosive new book, psychologist
> >> Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that it is not
> >> the abuse itself that causes trauma—but rather the narrative that is
> >> later imposed on the abuse experience. Clancy demonstrates that the
> >> most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but
> >> confusion. Because children don’t understand sexual encounters in the
> >> same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators
> >> — something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults. The
> >> professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm
> >> victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
> >> not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
> >> helping them. Path-breaking and controversial, The Trauma Myth
> >> empowers survivors to tell their own stories, and radically reshapes
> >> our understanding of abuse and its aftermath."
>
> >>http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...
>
> >> The Trauma Myth: The Truth About the Sexual Abuse of Children--and Its
> >> Aftermath by Psychologist Susan A. Clancy
>
> >> "Few would argue that the experience of sexual abuse is deeply
> >> traumatic for a child. But in this explosive new book, psychologist
> >> Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that it is not
> >> the abuse itself that causes trauma—but rather the narrative that is
> >> later imposed on the abuse experience. Clancy demonstrates that the
> >> most common feeling victims report is not fear or panic, but
> >> confusion. Because children don’t understand sexual encounters in the
> >> same ways that adults do, they normally accommodate their perpetrators
> >> — something they feel intensely ashamed about as adults. The
> >> professional assumptions about the nature of childhood trauma can harm
> >> victims by reinforcing these feelings. Survivors are thus victimized
> >> not only by their abusers but also by the industry dedicated to
> >> helping them. Path-breaking and controversial, The Trauma Myth
> >> empowers survivors to tell their own stories, and radically reshapes
> >> our understanding of abuse and its aftermath."
>
Carol
Nov 11, 2011, 1:02:58 PM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
> There is little emotional trauma (the author argues based on the
> research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to do
> that.
I think that most kids know that what the "nice" man or woman is doing
> research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to do
> that.
is wrong, even if they don't have the vocabulary to express what they
are feeling. Being nice to the children is part of the grooming
process. Oprah Winfrey, who was a victim herself, did several shows
about child sexual abuse. One of her shows had 200 male sexual abuse
survivors in the audience.
http://mental-health.families.com/blog/the-grooming-process-of-a-child-sexual-predator
http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Male-Sexual-Abuse-Survivors-Stand-Together
On Nov 11, 9:22 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Carol,
>
> Of course, emotional trauma can be devastating. The psychologist discusses
> the research and so forth ... some of the sex offenders give the child
> candy and otherwise treat the children civilly, aside from the sex. The
> children are just confused as to why this adult enjoys fondling them while
> masturbating. And why other adult people get upset when the child talks
> about it. There is little emotional trauma (the author argues based on the
> research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to do
> that. Again, I am attempting to clarify this psychologist's argument.
> Also, I have not read the entire book...just for the record.
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > Disclaimer: This MFA Forum is a public site and does not necessarily
> > express the official opinion of Memphis Freethought Alliance, Inc. or its
> > members. Posters on this forum include MFA members as well as non-members.
> > People are encouraged to give their honest opinion about ideas and
> > critique other people's ideas and not to attack people personally. Please
> > keep posts open, honest, and civil.
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > memphisfreethoughta...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/memphisfreethoughtalliance?hl=en- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > Disclaimer: This MFA Forum is a public site and does not necessarily
> > express the official opinion of Memphis Freethought Alliance, Inc. or its
> > members. Posters on this forum include MFA members as well as non-members.
> > People are encouraged to give their honest opinion about ideas and
> > critique other people's ideas and not to attack people personally. Please
> > keep posts open, honest, and civil.
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > memphisfreethoughta...@googlegroups.com
> > For more options, visit this group at
Martin Atkins
Nov 11, 2011, 1:43:48 PM11/11/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
It sounds as if those 200 men had horrible experiences and shame. According to that article, one in six (or about 25,000,000 men) were sexually molested in the US alone. I wonder if those 200 men on Oprah were representative of the typical molested child I adulthood. I would think that men who feel the most traumatized would be the most motivated to (a) speak out and/or (b) seek therapy. The other 95% (or whatever) who didn't think that much of it--just very confused--went on with their life.
Again, I am just playing the role of a counter arguer and clarifying what I think is the author/psychologist 's point. This actually might be a good book club read.
Carol
Nov 11, 2011, 1:58:56 PM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
It makes you wonder how many men and women have been severely
traumatized, but have been too ashamed to discuss it with anyone.
Sexual abuse of children is such an "ichy" topic, that people don't
even want to think about it. This just allows it to coninue and may
even encourage it. Predators know that they can get away with it.
On Nov 11, 12:43 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds as if those 200 men had horrible experiences and shame.
> According to that article, one in six (or about 25,000,000 men) were
> sexually molested in the US alone. I wonder if those 200 men on Oprah were
> representative of the typical molested child I adulthood. I would think
> that men who feel the most traumatized would be the most motivated to (a)
> speak out and/or (b) seek therapy. The other 95% (or whatever) who didn't
> think that much of it--just very confused--went on with their life.
>
> Again, I am just playing the role of a counter arguer and clarifying what I
> think is the author/psychologist 's point. This actually might be a good
> book club read.
>
> >http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Male-Sexual-Abuse-Survivors-Stand-Toge...
> >http://www.amazon.com/Trauma-Myth-Sexual-Children---Aftermath/dp/0465...-
traumatized, but have been too ashamed to discuss it with anyone.
Sexual abuse of children is such an "ichy" topic, that people don't
even want to think about it. This just allows it to coninue and may
even encourage it. Predators know that they can get away with it.
On Nov 11, 12:43 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It sounds as if those 200 men had horrible experiences and shame.
> According to that article, one in six (or about 25,000,000 men) were
> sexually molested in the US alone. I wonder if those 200 men on Oprah were
> representative of the typical molested child I adulthood. I would think
> that men who feel the most traumatized would be the most motivated to (a)
> speak out and/or (b) seek therapy. The other 95% (or whatever) who didn't
> think that much of it--just very confused--went on with their life.
>
> Again, I am just playing the role of a counter arguer and clarifying what I
> think is the author/psychologist 's point. This actually might be a good
> book club read.
> On Nov 11, 2011 12:02 PM, "Carol" <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > > There is little emotional trauma (the author argues based on the
> > > research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to
> > do
> > > that.
>
> > I think that most kids know that what the "nice" man or woman is doing
> > is wrong, even if they don't have the vocabulary to express what they
> > are feeling. Being nice to the children is part of the grooming
> > process. Oprah Winfrey, who was a victim herself, did several shows
> > about child sexual abuse. One of her shows had 200 male sexual abuse
> > survivors in the audience.
>
> >http://mental-health.families.com/blog/the-grooming-process-of-a-chil...
>
>
>
> > > There is little emotional trauma (the author argues based on the
> > > research) just a lot of confusion caused by this "nice" man who wants to
> > do
> > > that.
>
> > I think that most kids know that what the "nice" man or woman is doing
> > is wrong, even if they don't have the vocabulary to express what they
> > are feeling. Being nice to the children is part of the grooming
> > process. Oprah Winfrey, who was a victim herself, did several shows
> > about child sexual abuse. One of her shows had 200 male sexual abuse
> > survivors in the audience.
>
>
> >http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/Male-Sexual-Abuse-Survivors-Stand-Toge...
fanofreason
Nov 11, 2011, 11:06:17 PM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Atkins: You stated, "I would be willing to bet that if a, say, 45 year
saying? Just trying to clarify if you are still "playing the role"
here or expressing your own opinion about what you believe many
therapists do.
Regarding this point, "probing hard and not believing the patient,"
whether it is yours or the author's statement, I don't know who would
argue that competence is not important in any field. Being formally
trained in medicine, for example, does not make one a specialist in
all areas of medicine (cardiology, oncology, obstetrics, etc.) Or,
being formally trained in say, psychology, business, math, or behavior
analysis does not necessarily make one a specialist in all areas of
behavior, psychology, math, or business. I feel sure we agree on that.
So, I reiterate my point using your example. If the man in your (or
the author's) example goes to therapy for a problem and mentions this
series of encounters with his uncle, and he does not perceive it as
abuse, and he does not want to address it in treatment, then then it
is appropriate to accept this man where he is and address what he is
asking the therapist to help him with. It might surface later in
therapy as relevant content that has been influencing his life, which
has been operating outside of his awareness, or it may never come up
again. Of course there are inexperienced or incompetent therapists (as
there are inexperienced/incompetent professionals in any field) who
might mismanage this issue, but I cannot think of one I know off the
top of my head who would attempt to force this man to make this a
primary treatment goal. He would probably never return to that
therapist. Surely, there are some therapists like this out there, I
just don't know them.
Also, combat and car crashes do not always induce post trauma
symptoms, depression, or other emotional trauma, as opposed to your
(or the author) statement about that. The "event itself," may or may
not induce emotional trauma at the time of the event. Sometimes trauma
responses are delayed for months or years, and sometimes they never
occur, regardless of the trauma (sexual, combat,etc.).
To respond to some of the other posts, of course childhood sexual
abuse often has a horrific impact on a person later in life. There are
multiple factors that play a role in the overall impact.
I haven't read this book, so I am not able to respond to any content
that hasn't been posted. However, the title (associating trauma with
myth) is egregious and highly irresponsible. I think the title is
downright unethical in regard to clients. I have reservations about
financially supporting this author and publisher based solely on the
title. Our society already has enough minimizations and misconceptions
about sexual abuse. Using this title appears to be intended to create
buzz to boost sales, and the author should fight to change it. I hope
the content is informative.
On Nov 11, 12:12 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that the author's point is that society or people make a big deal
> about sex with children so that some children may feel the need (or social
> pressure) to discuss it with a therapist. In other words, the child (or
> adult) is responding more to the cultural reinforcement of these negative
> feelings rather than emotional consequences from the act of sexual
> contact.
>
> With combat or car crashes, the event itself causes trauma. With fondling,
> masturbation, etc, the act itself often isn't traumatic; however, people in
> society may reinforce self-statements about, say, masturbation, being
> fondled by an adult, etc that evoke powerful feelings--feelings that
> weren't elicited by the actual sexual event.
>
> I would be willing to bet that if a, say, 45 year old man came in with some
> issues and at some point--in passing-- told the therapist that he was
> sexually fondled by his uncle on a weekly basis from, say, age 5 to 7 years
> old. Many therapists would probe hard and perhaps not believe the 45 yo
> man if he said that it really wasn't traumatic or even that big of the deal
> to him .... just confusing. I, again, am just attempting to clarify her
> arguments and not my arguments.
old man came in with some
issues and at some point--in passing-- told the therapist that he was
sexually fondled by his uncle on a weekly basis from, say, age 5 to 7
years
old. Many therapists would probe hard and perhaps not believe the 45
yo
man if he said that it really wasn't traumatic or even that big of the
deal
to him .... just confusing. I, again, am just attempting to clarify
her
arguments and not my arguments."
You said "I" am willing to bet. Is this YOU or what the author is
issues and at some point--in passing-- told the therapist that he was
sexually fondled by his uncle on a weekly basis from, say, age 5 to 7
years
old. Many therapists would probe hard and perhaps not believe the 45
yo
man if he said that it really wasn't traumatic or even that big of the
deal
to him .... just confusing. I, again, am just attempting to clarify
her
arguments and not my arguments."
saying? Just trying to clarify if you are still "playing the role"
here or expressing your own opinion about what you believe many
therapists do.
Regarding this point, "probing hard and not believing the patient,"
whether it is yours or the author's statement, I don't know who would
argue that competence is not important in any field. Being formally
trained in medicine, for example, does not make one a specialist in
all areas of medicine (cardiology, oncology, obstetrics, etc.) Or,
being formally trained in say, psychology, business, math, or behavior
analysis does not necessarily make one a specialist in all areas of
behavior, psychology, math, or business. I feel sure we agree on that.
So, I reiterate my point using your example. If the man in your (or
the author's) example goes to therapy for a problem and mentions this
series of encounters with his uncle, and he does not perceive it as
abuse, and he does not want to address it in treatment, then then it
is appropriate to accept this man where he is and address what he is
asking the therapist to help him with. It might surface later in
therapy as relevant content that has been influencing his life, which
has been operating outside of his awareness, or it may never come up
again. Of course there are inexperienced or incompetent therapists (as
there are inexperienced/incompetent professionals in any field) who
might mismanage this issue, but I cannot think of one I know off the
top of my head who would attempt to force this man to make this a
primary treatment goal. He would probably never return to that
therapist. Surely, there are some therapists like this out there, I
just don't know them.
Also, combat and car crashes do not always induce post trauma
symptoms, depression, or other emotional trauma, as opposed to your
(or the author) statement about that. The "event itself," may or may
not induce emotional trauma at the time of the event. Sometimes trauma
responses are delayed for months or years, and sometimes they never
occur, regardless of the trauma (sexual, combat,etc.).
To respond to some of the other posts, of course childhood sexual
abuse often has a horrific impact on a person later in life. There are
multiple factors that play a role in the overall impact.
I haven't read this book, so I am not able to respond to any content
that hasn't been posted. However, the title (associating trauma with
myth) is egregious and highly irresponsible. I think the title is
downright unethical in regard to clients. I have reservations about
financially supporting this author and publisher based solely on the
title. Our society already has enough minimizations and misconceptions
about sexual abuse. Using this title appears to be intended to create
buzz to boost sales, and the author should fight to change it. I hope
the content is informative.
On Nov 11, 12:12 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think that the author's point is that society or people make a big deal
> about sex with children so that some children may feel the need (or social
> pressure) to discuss it with a therapist. In other words, the child (or
> adult) is responding more to the cultural reinforcement of these negative
> feelings rather than emotional consequences from the act of sexual
> contact.
>
> With combat or car crashes, the event itself causes trauma. With fondling,
> masturbation, etc, the act itself often isn't traumatic; however, people in
> society may reinforce self-statements about, say, masturbation, being
> fondled by an adult, etc that evoke powerful feelings--feelings that
> weren't elicited by the actual sexual event.
>
> I would be willing to bet that if a, say, 45 year old man came in with some
> issues and at some point--in passing-- told the therapist that he was
> sexually fondled by his uncle on a weekly basis from, say, age 5 to 7 years
> old. Many therapists would probe hard and perhaps not believe the 45 yo
> man if he said that it really wasn't traumatic or even that big of the deal
> to him .... just confusing. I, again, am just attempting to clarify her
> arguments and not my arguments.
fanofreason
Nov 11, 2011, 11:19:59 PM11/11/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
You are exactly right, Carol (IMO). All the more reason why this book
title needs to be changed.
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
title needs to be changed.
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 7:19:31 AM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Good post, Fanoreason. I was being more of a devil's advocate. I haven't read the entire book and am not entirely clear on the author's stance.
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 7:32:29 AM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
The author (Susan) is a researcher in memory at Harvard University so she may be examining how the memories of the sexual abuse are reviewed in therapy sessions or remembered later in life. Elizabeth Loftus (at University of Washington but now at Irvine) did a lot of research along a similar line with repressed memories and sexual abuse allegations.
On Nov 11, 2011 10:06 PM, "fanofreason" <fanofr...@gmail.com> wrote:
fanofreason
Nov 12, 2011, 8:41:34 AM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
The fact that children often feel physiologically pleasured and
psychologically comforted by their abusers at the time of the abuse is
not news. It is later in life, when they have the ability to
understand that the pedophile exploited them, that they begin to have
intense emotional difficulty. Intense "confusion" can induce intense
emotional discomfort as well and should not be minimized. There are
also plenty of cases where the abuse was highly traumatizing (both
physically and emotionally) at the time of the abuse. Of course, the
parental/familial/cultural reaction to the child is relevant, if the
abuse is even discovered during that time. External reactions are also
relevant later, if others learn of the persons' abuse.
These points are not news in the therapy community. If these are the
points the author is trying to make, then she did not look very far
into what the therapy community already knows at large. Perhaps she is
simply trying to reign in the "fringe" providers who can get a little
"out there" and cause more harm than good. If so, then she may have
made a relevant contribution to the literature. Either way, her
inflammatory title smells like a financial or political agenda that
appears to be more important to her than making a relevant
contribution to the literature. I don't know what she based her
research on, but I am going to try to find a way to look into it
without having to spend money on this terrible title. I am sure there
are some valid, informative points in there somewhere, and I am open
to learning about that.
On Nov 12, 6:32 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The author (Susan) is a researcher in memory at Harvard University so she
> may be examining how the memories of the sexual abuse are reviewed in
> therapy sessions or remembered later in life. Elizabeth Loftus (at
> University of Washington but now at Irvine) did a lot of research along a
> similar line with repressed memories and sexual abuse allegations.
psychologically comforted by their abusers at the time of the abuse is
not news. It is later in life, when they have the ability to
understand that the pedophile exploited them, that they begin to have
intense emotional difficulty. Intense "confusion" can induce intense
emotional discomfort as well and should not be minimized. There are
also plenty of cases where the abuse was highly traumatizing (both
physically and emotionally) at the time of the abuse. Of course, the
parental/familial/cultural reaction to the child is relevant, if the
abuse is even discovered during that time. External reactions are also
relevant later, if others learn of the persons' abuse.
These points are not news in the therapy community. If these are the
points the author is trying to make, then she did not look very far
into what the therapy community already knows at large. Perhaps she is
simply trying to reign in the "fringe" providers who can get a little
"out there" and cause more harm than good. If so, then she may have
made a relevant contribution to the literature. Either way, her
inflammatory title smells like a financial or political agenda that
appears to be more important to her than making a relevant
contribution to the literature. I don't know what she based her
research on, but I am going to try to find a way to look into it
without having to spend money on this terrible title. I am sure there
are some valid, informative points in there somewhere, and I am open
to learning about that.
On Nov 12, 6:32 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The author (Susan) is a researcher in memory at Harvard University so she
> may be examining how the memories of the sexual abuse are reviewed in
> therapy sessions or remembered later in life. Elizabeth Loftus (at
> University of Washington but now at Irvine) did a lot of research along a
> similar line with repressed memories and sexual abuse allegations.
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 9:06:41 AM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Yes, look at psychological and intense emotional difficulty that Richard Dawkins experienced or experiences from being sexually exploited as a child. Or, is Dawkins mininizing it? Is the therapist more aware of how Dawkins feels about the sexual abuse than Dawkins himself?
Yes, not everyone is traumatized by severe car accidents or combat. However, if a child were given a choice of, say, (1) being in a near fatal car accident or even having others die in that accident, (2) placed in a live combat situation with people are being killed around them OR (3) being fondled a by an adult, I wonder which one the child would choose. And if children were randomly selected to experience one of these three situations, which situation would produce the highest percent of trauma? (Obviously, nobody should run such an experiment.)
Orson Zedd
Nov 12, 2011, 9:53:09 AM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Now hold on a tick, is our argument essentially, "people who are
conditioned to believe an action is abuse feel abused, or is there
evidence said actions themselves are always responsible, or at least
usually, for the trauma?
conditioned to believe an action is abuse feel abused, or is there
evidence said actions themselves are always responsible, or at least
usually, for the trauma?
OZ
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 10:03:03 AM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Good question, Orson. Are people being reinforced for self-statements, public statements (and/or feelings) of trauma for events that were possibly not traumatic--at least not in many circumstances?
Carol
Nov 12, 2011, 12:20:02 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
were "forcibly" raped.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abortion-funding
On Nov 12, 9:03 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good question, Orson. Are people being reinforced for self-statements,
> public statements (and/or feelings) of trauma for events that were possibly
> not traumatic--at least not in many circumstances?
child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
were "forcibly" raped.
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abortion-funding
On Nov 12, 9:03 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Good question, Orson. Are people being reinforced for self-statements,
> public statements (and/or feelings) of trauma for events that were possibly
> not traumatic--at least not in many circumstances?
> On Nov 12, 2011 8:53 AM, "Orson Zedd" <nintenfr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Now hold on a tick, is our argument essentially, "people who are
> > conditioned to believe an action is abuse feel abused, or is there
> > evidence said actions themselves are always responsible, or at least
> > usually, for the trauma?
>
> > OZ
>
>
>
>
> > Now hold on a tick, is our argument essentially, "people who are
> > conditioned to believe an action is abuse feel abused, or is there
> > evidence said actions themselves are always responsible, or at least
> > usually, for the trauma?
>
> > OZ
>
> > On 11/12/11, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Yes, look at psychological and intense emotional difficulty that Richard
> > > Dawkins experienced or experiences from being sexually exploited as a
> > > child. Or, is Dawkins mininizing it? Is the therapist more aware of how
> > > Dawkins feels about the sexual abuse than Dawkins himself?
>
> > > Yes, not everyone is traumatized by severe car accidents or combat.
> > > However, if a child were given a choice of, say, (1) being in a near
> > fatal
> > > car accident or even having others die in that accident, (2) placed in a
> > > live combat situation with people are being killed around them OR (3)
> > being
> > > fondled a by an adult, I wonder which one the child would choose. And if
> > > children were randomly selected to experience one of these three
> > > situations, which situation would produce the highest percent of trauma?
> > > (Obviously, nobody should run such an experiment.)
> > > Yes, look at psychological and intense emotional difficulty that Richard
> > > Dawkins experienced or experiences from being sexually exploited as a
> > > child. Or, is Dawkins mininizing it? Is the therapist more aware of how
> > > Dawkins feels about the sexual abuse than Dawkins himself?
>
> > > Yes, not everyone is traumatized by severe car accidents or combat.
> > > However, if a child were given a choice of, say, (1) being in a near
> > fatal
> > > car accident or even having others die in that accident, (2) placed in a
> > > live combat situation with people are being killed around them OR (3)
> > being
> > > fondled a by an adult, I wonder which one the child would choose. And if
> > > children were randomly selected to experience one of these three
> > > situations, which situation would produce the highest percent of trauma?
> > > (Obviously, nobody should run such an experiment.)
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 2:01:22 PM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Carol,
I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live on the internet.
Clogtowner
Nov 12, 2011, 2:51:09 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - what about the ultimate child sexual abuse - circumcision?
On Nov 12, 1:01 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Carol,
>
> I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> ...
>
> read more »
On Nov 12, 1:01 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Carol,
>
> I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> On Nov 12, 2011 11:20 AM, "Carol" <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
> >http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abo...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
>
> read more »
fanofreason
Nov 12, 2011, 3:06:44 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I am not sure you are actually reading what I post before you respond
to it. BTW, are you playing "the role" here or are these your own
views?
NO, the therapist is not "more aware of how Dawkins feels." I have
already explained that it is the role of the therapist to find out how
the individual feels about the abuse and help them if they want help.
I thought I was clear in explaining this in my earlier post. I won't
explain the same thing again. Just read what I wrote and exchange
Dawkins for the 45 year-old man.
What is your point in comparing traumas? There are obviously some
accidents, combat experiences, or sexual abuse experiences which could
each be worse than the other (psychologically or physiologically), or
equal in impact. I don't understand your point here (or the role you
are playing if you are presenting the author's argument here).
On Nov 12, 8:06 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, look at psychological and intense emotional difficulty that Richard
> Dawkins experienced or experiences from being sexually exploited as a
> child. Or, is Dawkins mininizing it? Is the therapist more aware of how
> Dawkins feels about the sexual abuse than Dawkins himself?...
>
> read more »
> > > > > > > Susan Clancy reports on years of research and contends that- Hide quoted text -
to it. BTW, are you playing "the role" here or are these your own
views?
NO, the therapist is not "more aware of how Dawkins feels." I have
already explained that it is the role of the therapist to find out how
the individual feels about the abuse and help them if they want help.
I thought I was clear in explaining this in my earlier post. I won't
explain the same thing again. Just read what I wrote and exchange
Dawkins for the 45 year-old man.
What is your point in comparing traumas? There are obviously some
accidents, combat experiences, or sexual abuse experiences which could
each be worse than the other (psychologically or physiologically), or
equal in impact. I don't understand your point here (or the role you
are playing if you are presenting the author's argument here).
On Nov 12, 8:06 am, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, look at psychological and intense emotional difficulty that Richard
> Dawkins experienced or experiences from being sexually exploited as a
> child. Or, is Dawkins mininizing it? Is the therapist more aware of how
>
> read more »
>
> Yes, not everyone is traumatized by severe car accidents or combat.
> However, if a child were given a choice of, say, (1) being in a near fatal
> car accident or even having others die in that accident, (2) placed in a
> live combat situation with people are being killed around them OR (3) being
> fondled a by an adult, I wonder which one the child would choose. And if
> children were randomly selected to experience one of these three
> situations, which situation would produce the highest percent of trauma?
> (Obviously, nobody should run such an experiment.)
> Yes, not everyone is traumatized by severe car accidents or combat.
> However, if a child were given a choice of, say, (1) being in a near fatal
> car accident or even having others die in that accident, (2) placed in a
> live combat situation with people are being killed around them OR (3) being
> fondled a by an adult, I wonder which one the child would choose. And if
> children were randomly selected to experience one of these three
> situations, which situation would produce the highest percent of trauma?
> (Obviously, nobody should run such an experiment.)
Message has been deleted
fanofreason
Nov 12, 2011, 3:21:50 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Excellent point, Carol. Yes, fondling can seriously traumatize a
person (even if not at the time of the fondling).
On Nov 12, 11:20 am, Carol <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> were "forcibly" raped.
>
> http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abo...
> > > >> with- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
person (even if not at the time of the fondling).
On Nov 12, 11:20 am, Carol <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> were "forcibly" raped.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
fanofreason
Nov 12, 2011, 3:24:56 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I just read this, Atkins, after I just posted my response to you about
Dawkins. Thanks for clarifying your personal views. So, you would go
medieval on that ass, huh?
> Carol,...
>
> read more »
> > > > >> > > On Nov 11, 12:12 am, Martin- Hide quoted text -
Dawkins. Thanks for clarifying your personal views. So, you would go
medieval on that ass, huh?
> Carol,...
>
> read more »
>
> I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> On Nov 12, 2011 11:20 AM, "Carol" <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
> >http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abo...
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
Carol
Nov 12, 2011, 4:13:38 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days.
Okay, well as long as you're thinking about the child, Martin.
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days.
> I think that capital punishment should be utilized within 7 days of being
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> convicted of child sexual abuse. For 6 days the abuser should be exposed
> to medieval torture and rectal penetration with a baseball bat (the wide
> end) that culminates on the 7th day at 12:01 am with crocodile shears. And
> if the monster doesn't bleed to death, then kill the animal at 11:59 am on
> the 7th day to meet the 7 day deadline but allow the thing to suffer for
> 23hr59min after implementing the shears.
>
> The actual level of trauma to the child should be irrelevant to the
> maximization of the trauma and pain to the pedophile for the 7 days. If
> necessary, the child abuse should be injected with adrenaline to avoid
> passing out from the pain. And the whole 7 days should be broadcasted live
> on the internet.
> On Nov 12, 2011 11:20 AM, "Carol" <carole...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
> >http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/wed-february-2-2011/rape-victim-abo...
>
>
>
> > Martin, do you think that child sex abuse is not that bad unless the
> > child is actually penetrated? Is fondling a child considered sex-
> > abuse-lite? It seems to me that one of the most insidious aspects of
> > child sex abuse is that a trusted adult controls and takes advantage
> > of an innocent child. This conversation reminds me of this clip from
> > The Daily Show which points out the absurdity of the attempt by
> > Repuplicans to block funding for abortions of rape victims unless they
> > were "forcibly" raped.
>
Martin Atkins
Nov 12, 2011, 4:28:39 PM11/12/11
to memphisfreeth...@googlegroups.com
Of course, Susan (the author of that book) mistakenly attempted to systematically measure the impact of sexual abuse on children as well as the impact of therapeutic and social reactions to child sexual abuse--typical for an Ivy Tower, Harvard person. She should've instead attempted to improve the child's emotional fortitude by severe retribution for the heinous actions by these pedophilia monsters.
Clog, are you alleging that genial mutilation by an adult to a child is more or less traumatizing than fondling? Just out of curiosity: Would you be more traumatized by having your genitals mutilated or someone fondling your penis?
Clogtowner
Nov 12, 2011, 4:36:35 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - circumcision is not just sexual but also physical abuse. At
the time, one feels pain - in later life one can be traumatized. I
think it is a more serious crime than fondling. The only saving grace
is that the parents may have been traumatized by the church to do it -
some rationale!
On Nov 12, 3:28 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, Susan (the author of that book) mistakenly attempted to
> systematically measure the impact of sexual abuse on children as well as
> the impact of therapeutic and social reactions to child sexual
> abuse--typical for an Ivy Tower, Harvard person. She should've instead
> attempted to improve the child's emotional fortitude by severe retribution
> for the heinous actions by these pedophilia monsters.
>
> Clog, are you alleging that genial mutilation by an adult to a child is
> more or less traumatizing than fondling? Just out of curiosity: Would you
> be more traumatized by having your genitals mutilated or someone fondling
> your penis?
> ...
>
> read more »
the time, one feels pain - in later life one can be traumatized. I
think it is a more serious crime than fondling. The only saving grace
is that the parents may have been traumatized by the church to do it -
some rationale!
On Nov 12, 3:28 pm, Martin Atkins <mfafreethou...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Of course, Susan (the author of that book) mistakenly attempted to
> systematically measure the impact of sexual abuse on children as well as
> the impact of therapeutic and social reactions to child sexual
> abuse--typical for an Ivy Tower, Harvard person. She should've instead
> attempted to improve the child's emotional fortitude by severe retribution
> for the heinous actions by these pedophilia monsters.
>
> Clog, are you alleging that genial mutilation by an adult to a child is
> more or less traumatizing than fondling? Just out of curiosity: Would you
> be more traumatized by having your genitals mutilated or someone fondling
> your penis?
>
> read more »
fanofreason
Nov 12, 2011, 5:03:07 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I have seen literally hundreds of people address emotional injury from
fondling (sex abuse) in their childhood. I have never once had a case
who presented to discuss trauma from circumcision, not a one.
> > > > > > > >> > > So, I reiterate my point using- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
fondling (sex abuse) in their childhood. I have never once had a case
who presented to discuss trauma from circumcision, not a one.
>
> - Show quoted text -...
>
> read more »
GoodGolly
Nov 12, 2011, 5:26:40 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
I vote no for this title. Emphatically.
Fan/Carol- I am with you on this.
> > > > > > > > would...
>
> read more »
Fan/Carol- I am with you on this.
>
> read more »
Clogtowner
Nov 12, 2011, 5:52:06 PM11/12/11
to Memphis Freethought Alliance Public Forum
Hi y'all - come and talk to me.
> > > > > > > > would...
>
> read more »
>
> read more »
Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages