Anti-gay Orson Scott Card

[Martin Atkins]

Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage and against many of the issues fought for by LGBT organizations.  Among other activities, Card served as a board member on the National Organization for Marriage (anti gay organization) from 2009 to July of 2013. He also provided financial backing to NOM.

Ender's Game is a good book.  However, I strongly encourage people to buy it used or borrow it from the library for book club to avoid giving Mr. Card more money.

MEMPHIS FREETHOUGHT ALLIANCE: Advancing reason, science and secular government through education

[Leo Alessi]

This is news to you?

Sapere aude!

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[Shanon White]

It's news to me.  The problem I had with Ender's Game was I just don't like a protagonist who "can do no wrong."  A lot of scifi seems to have these.  I like the Indiana Jones flawed almost anti-hero who from time to time gets the crap beat out of him and throughout the story becomes a better person --what they call a 3 dimensional character.   Ender sort of starts out perfect continues to be perfect and ends up being perfect.  Not much of a character arch there.  

A good character goes from whining about going to Tachi Station to pick up some power converters to not quite being able to lift an X wing out of the swamp to walking into Jabba's Palace with the 100% confidence of a total pimp.  An arch that is earned by failure overcoming inner obstacles as well as outward ones.

It's no surprise really that Card whose most famous story depicts a very hierarchical triumph of a chosen-at-birth elite over the inferior humans --and the fact that we need to be saved by an inherently superior "savior" rather than by working together as equals toward a common goal would have more conservative and even religious values.  It's almost a children's mirror image of Atlas Shrugged if you think about it.

[Martin F. Atkins]

It was news to me, too.

I don't know much about the story and never read any of his works. Based on what you (white.shanon) wrote, that sounds very similar to the themes of Atlas Shrugged, which (it seems) encourages laziness by diminishing and mocking the labors and contributions of semi-skilled and blue collar working class.  Perhaps encouraging people to work at any job would be more motivating to people when compared to demoralizing (or demotivating) people merely for working at McDonald's, as a waiter, and so forth.  By definition, only 1% will be that top 1% and everyone else will be part of the 99%. Everyone can't acquire the skills for a job that pays a six or seven digit annual income.  However, most people benefit from people working and the goods and services that are produced by the ninety-nine percenters (prepared meals, fixed roads, built houses, removed garage, repaired cars, maintained sewer systems, etc.).    

Ender's Game may generate a good discussion.

On Thursday, October 10, 2013 4:23:22 PM UTC-5, white.shanon wrote:

It's news to me.  The problem I had with Ender's Game was I just don't like a protagonist who "can do no wrong."  A lot of scifi seems to have these.  I like the Indiana Jones flawed almost anti-hero who from time to time gets the crap beat out of him and throughout the story becomes a better person --what they call a 3 dimensional character.   Ender sort of starts out perfect continues to be perfect and ends up being perfect.  Not much of a character arch there.  

A good character goes from whining about going to Tachi Station to pick up some power converters to not quite being able to lift an X wing out of the swamp to walking into Jabba's Palace with the 100% confidence of a total pimp.  An arch that is earned by failure overcoming inner obstacles as well as outward ones.

It's no surprise really that Card whose most famous story depicts a very hierarchical triumph of a chosen-at-birth elite over the inferior humans --and the fact that we need to be saved by an inherently superior "savior" rather than by working together as equals toward a common goal would have more conservative and even religious values.  It's almost a children's mirror image of Atlas Shrugged if you think about it.

On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Leo Alessi <pvdo...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is news to you?

Sapere aude!

On Oct 10, 2013, at 3:48 PM, Martin Atkins <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

Orson Scott Card is against gay marriage and against many of the issues fought for by LGBT organizations.  Among other activities, Card served as a board member on the National Organization for Marriage (anti gay organization) from 2009 to July of 2013. He also provided financial backing to NOM.

Ender's Game is a good book.  However, I strongly encourage people to buy it used or borrow it from the library for book club to avoid giving Mr. Card more money.

MEMPHIS FREETHOUGHT ALLIANCE: Advancing reason, science and secular government through education

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[Martin F. Atkins]

I started reading Enders Game. It isn't at all like Atlas Shrugged. Altlas Shrugged was about the super talented being lined up to inherit--apparently deservedly--all the wealth. Enders Games is about the super talented being lined up to be slaughtered or kill the enemy. Soldiers are hardly lead characters in Atlas Shrugged where the elite would send someone else to be killed or do the direct killing. In the intro, Card claims that Asimov's Foundation series and his brother's military invovement inspired the story. The military is certainly designed as a heirarchy.

[Shanon White]

No there are no children in Atlas Shrugged either.   They are of course very different stories.  I'm just saying that this underlining theme of the uber man / savior kinda thing exists in both.  I've heard it described as Harry Potter in space too.  I read Enders game when I was a teenager (cough) years ago but I remember by the middle I was almost rooting for his brother.

On Oct 11, 2013 4:15 AM, "Martin F. Atkins" <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

I started reading Enders Game. It isn't at all like Atlas Shrugged. Altlas Shrugged was about the super talented being lined up to inherit--apparently deservedly--all the wealth.  Enders Games is about the super talented being lined up to be slaughtered or kill the enemy. Soldiers are hardly lead characters in Atlas Shrugged where the elite would send someone else to be killed or do the direct killing. In the intro, Card claims that Asimov's Foundation series and his brother's military invovement inspired the story. The military is certainly designed as a heirarchy.

[Martin F. Atkins]

Gotcha! 

 

Just for clarification: you do embrace the fact that some people are inferior (or superior) to others, especially with various skills, right? I admit that NBA players have superior basketball skills when compared to my skills.  The Ender's Game children are extraordinarily skilled at (superior with) killing and not getting killed. Society also rewards some rare and highly refined skills (and other things, such as beauty) more than other things.  Now what is a fair reward is debated but you don't think that everyone should be rewarded equally for equal amounts of work when the quality of the work--due to inherit or developed skills--is so different, right? For example, I shouldn't be paid millions to play basketball, given my low basketball skill level. 

 

Hierarchies exist in societies but sometimes these hierarchies become extreme. Are you just claiming that this Ender's Game warrior class of children has become too arrogant, takes all the spoils of the war and doesn't share with anyone else?  Many soldiers in the US military view the civil population as relativity weak and in need of protection--and many of our fighters are youthful. 

 

I haven't read the book yet.  We should perhaps continue this discussion when I am finished with it.

 

 

 

 

On Friday, October 11, 2013 9:34:14 AM UTC-5, white.shanon wrote:

No there are no children in Atlas Shrugged either.   They are of course very different stories.  I'm just saying that this underlining theme of the uber man / savior kinda thing exists in both.  I've heard it described as Harry Potter in space too.  I read Enders game when I was a teenager (cough) years ago but I remember by the middle I was almost rooting for his brother.

On Oct 11, 2013 4:15 AM, "Martin F. Atkins" <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

I started reading Enders Game. It isn't at all like Atlas Shrugged. Altlas Shrugged was about the super talented being lined up to inherit--apparently deservedly--all the wealth.  Enders Games is about the super talented being lined up to be slaughtered or kill the enemy. Soldiers are hardly lead characters in Atlas Shrugged where the elite would send someone else to be killed or do the direct killing. In the intro, Card claims that Asimov's Foundation series and his brother's military invovement inspired the story. The military is certainly designed as a heirarchy.

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[Shanon White]

Some people are superior / inferior to others in very specific areas and not necessarily others.  I'm no good at basketball, but I picked up the guitar very quickly.  I can write a recursive method in c# to calculate a factorial, but ask me to hang a door or pick a high yield mutual fund and I'm lost  --and neither I nor anyone else really has control of which of those things is rewarded more or less in the culture and time we happen to be in.   

Even the "geniuses" simply built on the work of many others before them and happened to be at a pivotal point in the evolution of an idea.  Calculus, for example was invented in several unconnected places almost at the same time --though the credit is generally given to Isaac Newton.  Thomas Edison didn't invent the light bulb and the Wright brothers didn't invent the airplane... they were just focal points we find it easier to put a name on.  

People we call "heroes" often say the same thing, "I did what most anyone would do --I was just at the right place at the right time."  And they're not wrong.

So I guess no I don't embrace that "fact" in any broad sweeping sense.  In fact once you start saying this person is "superior" to that person --you're making a dangerous generalization.  You can say this person runs faster than that person.  But "is better?" no --not really.

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[Tom]

Some people won't listen to or otherwise appreciate an artist because of the artists stance, like an artist who is a racist for example. I think some part of me has a harder time appreciating a Mel Gibson or Tom Cruise movie then say in the 1990's. 

It is a bit of a shock to see people who are creative or intelligent in one way have some character flaw or flawed reasoning.  How could someone who created something so perfect, not be perfect themselves?

I saw that Scott Adams, the cartoonist behind Dilbert thinks evolution is a joke.  That was a shock.

I read a article awhile back by Card explaining his anti-gay view by saying that if we were all gay we wouldn't be able to reproduce.  It was a very flawed argument.  It found the view more likely to be a attribute of his Mormon faith than that very weak argument.  

[Martin F. Atkins]

This person is a better, superior, faster runner because of her genetics (of which she doesn't have any control of) and training program (of which she has some control of). What is wrong with that? You don't think Olympic gold medalist runners are better, faster and superior to the average Jane Doe runner off the street?

[Orson Zedd]

there's a very interesting point to be made that Orson Scott Card didn't actually write Ender's Game.  See the attachments. the Elaine Radford ones are the article she wrote about Ender's Game you may have read.  The others are Orson Scott Card's rebuttal that he never reprinted.

On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 2:46 PM, Martin F. Atkins <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

This person is a better, superior, faster runner because of her genetics (of which she doesn't have any control of) and training program (of which she has some control of). What is wrong with that? You don't think Olympic gold medalist runners are better, faster and superior to the average Jane Doe runner off the street?

[Martin F. Atkins]

Where does it say that Card didn't write Enders Game?

[Orson Zedd]

Er, forgot to link to the article about that.

Wasn't sure which article I read it in, because there were two.  Anyway: www.kuro5hin.org/story/2005/5/28/22428/7034

On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 8:04 AM, Martin F. Atkins <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

Where does it say that Card didn't write Enders Game?

[Tom]

Well there are many books in the series too.  I'm of the mind of taking Occam's Razor, that thew guy wrote a not so bad book, but is kind of flawed in a number of other ways...

[Orson Zedd]

A writing analysis could test the hypothesis.

[Shanon White]

I enjoyed the book a lot it was well written and kind of an action packed page-turner.  It will translate well to a movie.  I never read "speaker for the Dead" or any other books from Card.  

[Shanon White]

I just remember being annoyed with Ender for being boringly infallible. 

[Tom]

I read a couple of the other books in the series.  The idea of someone born with extraordinary powers does recur a bit much.  Wether that's a Joseph Smith or an XMen influence, I eventually lost interest.

[Martin F. Atkins]

Who exactly is the proposed ghost writer if Orson Scott Card allegedly did not write Ender's Game? This ghost writer is more saintly than Jesus for not coming forward to claim millions. I think that ghost writer hypothesis is highly unlikely.

Card (who has a literature degree) claims he didn't want to write a high literary book. Instead, he wanted a Stephen King style book for Science Fiction, that is, write a clear book that the masses will read, enjoy, relate to and think about and stray from a more dense, obscure, high literary work. Or that is what Card himself alleges in his introduction to Enders Game. He also claims that people either love or hate his book: no middle ground. This Enders Game controversy has been raging for decades...and continues.

No wonder Barnes & Noble ranked it as one of the top books for a discussion group.

[Yackie]

as with any book, I take what I can use. I enjoyed reading the Ender's Series with the exception of Book of the Dead. There were many subjects he touched on that gave me thought. eugenics. one world government. remote warfare. Past Watch was an interesting look at time travel to review significant events.