Duck Dynasty

[sudo]

I was a little surprised that the guy got suspended. You all know, don't you, that what he said is exactly how Christian fundamentalists view homosexuality, bestiality and what not. In fact, the "vile language" he used was pretty much verbatim from the King Jimmy Bible. Oh, he might have left out a conjunction or preposition or two but he was pretty much quoting the Bible. I'm glad this fight over what is acceptable in our culture and what is considered bigoted and hate speech is being waged by the Christians and not the atheists this time 'round.... http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2013/12/19/jindal-palin-duck-dynasty-star-suspended-over-intolerance-of-politically-correct/?hpt=hp_t1

 

 

sudo

 

 

[Orson Zedd]

A violation of first amendment rights? You don't mean... This just
in, we have breaking reports that Duck Dynasty is a public
institution!

OZ

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[Martin F. Atkins]

Is this a First Amendment Violation?  He wasn't at work and doing an interview with GQ magazine.  Phil Robertson just expressed some specific views about his religious beliefs, which are consistent with the Holy Bible (even quoting the Holy Bible).  Can people be fired based on their religious or non-religious beliefs?  Or was this part of his Duck Dynasty contract about public relations? Freedom of Speech should be defended and not just defended when you agree with what the person is saying.  I wonder if the ACLU will defend him, if, in fact, his 1st Amendment rights are being violated.  The ACLU should. 

 

I don't know all the details of this incident and case so I reserve the right to change my view as I learn more about it.  

[Martin F. Atkins]

Phil Robertson showed enormous restraint.  He could said, "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them" (Leviticus 20:13). He did not advocate violence against people who engage in homosexual acts.  He simply pointed out how these individuals are sinners and will go to Hell.  That is consistent with the Biblical view but, again, actually pretty tame compared to what the Holy Bible really advocates. 

 

 

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:01:54 PM UTC-6, sudo wrote:

[Orson Zedd]

The fact is, he was probably under a contract that stipulated his
behavior on and off camera. This isn't new or unusual and if he
signed a contract like this, he can be held accountable for his words.
This isn't a first amendment issue, if that's true. This is then an
issue of History Channel finding that it is at odds with an employee
whose views might reflect poorly on them.

[Martin F. Atkins]

http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/12/19/phil-robertson-2010-sermon-homosexuality-gays-homophobia-a-and-e

Here is a speech that he did in Pennsylvania on homosexuality.

[sudo]

Martin, you know full well this isn't a 1st amendment issue but you know what? This could come under religious discrimination. Is it legal to discriminate in hiring on the basis of religion? Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits employers with 15 or more employees from discriminating against employees or job applicants on the basis of race, color, sex, religion, or national origin. 

sudo

[Martin F. Atkins]

This is probably also covered in his contract so that Title may not even apply. Phil messed up especially after people watch that PA speech of his in 2010. He will lose in the public court opinion, which is the heart of the success of any show.

[Shanon White]

What if his religion is hardcore Islam and he said Jews were the Great Satan and quoted the Koran?  

Would all these closet homophobes be rushing up to defend his "First Amendment" or EEOC rights?

I'm so sick of people quoting the Bible about homosexuality and ignoring the same book where it says, " Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death."   

Exodus 35:2 

I hope he didn't do that interview on Saturday because then he's "going to hell" too!  Right along with witches, adulterers and people who disrespect their parents.

Perpetuating the idea that homosexuals are "sinners" any more than anyone else-- perpetuates violence and discrimination and does real damage to people's lives. 

While hate speech is protected by law... so is A&E's right to suspend or fire his ass.

On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 6:10 AM, Martin F. Atkins <mfafree...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is probably also covered in his contract so that Title may not even apply.  Phil messed up especially after people watch that PA speech of his in 2010.  He will lose in the public court opinion, which is the heart of the success of any show.

[Martin F. Atkins]

A&E apparently knew about his anti-gay views from a speech back in 2010 before the show started and other things that he said. However, the show was lucrative and semi-scripted (and bad stuff was just cut from episodes). Now the cat is out of the bag. The public will judge Phil through ratings. Here is his sermon (see link below).

http://m.tmz.com/#Article/2013/12/19/phil-robertson-2010-sermon-homosexuality-gays-homophobia-a-and-e

[Fan of Reason]

I wonder if it is all a publicity stunt to shore up ratings for a popular show heading into its fifth season. Everyone involved already knew his views as we have now learned. Maybe A&E is taking a lesson from Chic Fil A in that they achieved record sales with their polarizing comments. Obama achieved many more voters after Romney's views of the impoverished were publicized, etc. A&E knows its most popular show will fade over time until they run out of ways to keep it hot.

This is just another angle to consider, FWIW..................

[Fan of Reason]

Season 5 has already been filmed with Phil featured in 10 episodes. A&E says they will air those shows beginning in January as planned, but that Phil won't appear in any upcoming shoots pending the "suspension." Sounds fishy to me.

[sudo]

But as I said, you take out his racial remarks, and nearly every evangelical Christian will agree with what he said. The liberal mainstream Christians can dance all they want but the Bible is clearly against homosexuality. So..... its the LBGT community against Christianity when you get right down to it. At least the way Christianity is practiced today. Even fundamentalist Christians will dance around stoning unruly children or murdering witches in today's time. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out...

sudo

[Martin F. Atkins]

Phil Robertson said, that gays and lesbians are "...full of murder, envy, strife, hatred. They are insolent, arrogant, God-haters. They are heartless, they are faithless, they are senseless, they are ruthless. They invent ways of doing evil."  Many of the viewers of that program are Christians and most of the Jesus loving Christians are appalled by that kind of hatred.  Only the very small group of fundamentalist Christians will support him.  This is really nothing like the Chick-Fil-A, which was against same sex marriages and not this kind of open, general hatred of the gay community. 

My predictions:

1.  A&E will show the next new episodes of Duck Dynasty and follow the ratings. If the ratings are good, A&E may ask Phil back after he apologizes or just find another Duck Dynasty kind of family (or some other reality show).  This will be similar to Charlie Sheen's "Two and a Half Men" where he isn't hired back. Reality shows come and go.

2.  The Robertson family may attempt to find another gig with another channel.  However, what Phil said was really bad so I doubt any big channel will pick him up.  It is one thing to say inflammatory things for entertainment or just to be a devil's advocate and quite another to express honest, hateful feelings toward a group of people and refuse to change. 


Many of the Christians who I spoke to believe that Phil is not following in the Jesus' footsteps with his hateful speech.  The hatred that he spouted was very unChristian in their opinion. 

[Fan of Reason]

You Tube was not a secret in 2010 and it is doubtful A&E did not know the depth of his hatred. A&E knows that the "Duck" bubble will not sustain itself indefinitely. A&E knows that getting everyone in America to talk about the controversy surrounding their show could possibly extend the life of it. If it doesn't extend the life of it, they know that season 6 is about the time that the popularity will start to fade anyway and this is the time they are talking about keeping Phil out of the show, not now. They are willing to take the risk that everyone could bail on season 5, I think. I think it could be a calculated risk on A&E's part for those reasons.

 

 It is interesting how A&E decided to be "shocked" by Phil's views just in time for Christmas, when it is likely to influence a mad rush on Duck Dynasty merchandise at Bass Pro and other retailers carrying Duck gear (and there is a ton of it). Sure, there are a lot of Christians who will bail on the show because of the hatred, but there are a lot of conservative people who will rationalize it away to keep enjoying the show (e.g., Phil is old and comes from a different time....... Phil was speaking to a really fundie group in 2010.......... Phil said in GQ that he would never disrespect gays because God made them too and he therefore has changed his views since 2010...................). 

 

Martin, you say you have talked to some Christians about this and it is good to hear they detest Phil's statements. Where I grew up, Phil's behavior will be rationalized by many Christians, and not necessarily the Westboro types.

 

Personally, I hope the public court bails on the show to send a message about using religion to be so hateful. We shall see.

[sudo]

Martin,

      Below is Romans 1:26-31 copied and pasted. It's what Christians say they believe.. the words of the Apostle Paul in the New Testament. It couldn't be much clearer could it? You think only a small contingent of Christians believes this? 

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 

sudo

[Fan of Reason]

Yes, that is straight from the Bible, Sudo. Small churches in the deep South will be quoting it tomorrow in defense of Phil.

Here is a reference to the money hauled in by Duck merchandise. They even have a Christmas album out this year.

http://m.hollywoodreporter.com/news/duck-dynasty-comments-could-spur-667104

I hope the softer Christians will prevail on this one. Hopefully, this controversy will move us closer to getting rid of Old Testament influence on our culture, the more cruel of the two sections in the Bible. At least soft Christians can argue that Jesus did not comment on gays. That is something.

[sudo]

Fan,

    Ah! And not just small churches I daresay. The mega churches are nearly all evangelical. As I said way back in post one on this thread.. I'm glad this dust up over the Bible, Duck Dynasty and gays doesn't involve us atheists... yet. Let all those liberal Christians that Martin seems to know so many of take this on. When we get to the point in our culture that whatever the Bible has to say about any issue has no weight whatsoever then I'll be just fine with the churches. 

sudo

[Martin F. Atkins]

Product Spur?  I hope that the Duck Dynasty sales are spurred because A&E (the corporation that fired Phil) owns it.  The Christian organizations will support Phil Robertson but we'll see if conservative Christian organizations urge their following to buy more A&E products.

Purposeful exposure of his anti-gay views:  I highly doubt that A&E is colluding with GQ to suspend Phil from Duck Dynasty.  GQ is just trying to sell issues and knew that this would be explosive.  Phil tamed his comments in the GQ interview but his comments went viral anyway and people dug for the real inflammatory statements that he made in the past (for example, in 2010). A&E is just trying to make the best of a bad situation.  Many people (Christians) were behind Chick-Fil-A but I don't think there is as much broad support for Phil's statements.


Again, my predictions:

1.  A&E will wait & see, if okay, ask Phil back but only with an apology: A&E will show the next new episodes of Duck Dynasty and follow the ratings. If the ratings are good, A&E may ask Phil back after he apologizes or just find another Duck Dynasty kind of family (or some other reality show).  This will be similar to Charlie Sheen's "Two and a Half Men" where he isn't hired back. Reality shows come and go.

2.  Robertson family may seek another network: The Robertson family may attempt to find another gig with another channel.  However, what Phil said was really bad so I doubt any big channel will pick him up.  It is one thing to say inflammatory things for entertainment or just to be a devil's advocate and quite another to express honest, hateful feelings toward a group of people and refuse to change.  The problem is that A&E scripted the Duck Dynasty show, which will be hard to recreate without getting potentially sued.

[Fan of Reason]

Walmart has sold out of their Duck Dynasty gear online since the controversy erupted this week. A&E profits from that and is raking it in. The consumers probably think they are supporting Phil and not A&E with these purchases. Timely controversy, A&E.

Sure, A&E will cancel the show if people stop watching this season. They know people are going stop watching in a couple years anyway. Rake in the profits with a nudge now and cancel the show after it is all milked for its worth.

I agree that A&E is not "colluding" with GQ. They are merely choosing an opportunistic time to be "shocked" by the views they already know Phil has. Where was their outrage before now?

Of course, I could be wrong, but who can deny that at a minimum, there is a cloud of suspicion around the way this all fell out?

[Martin F. Atkins]

Fan of Reason,

I agree with your statement, "They [A&E] are merely choosing an opportunistic time to be 'shocked' by the views they already know Phil has. Where was their outrage before now?"  A&E was aware of these views but never put them in the mainstream and probably edited these inflammatory comments out of the episodes.  Why?  A&E wanted to make money.  However, when GQ did the interview, GQ did their research and got Phil to say something inflammatory to sell that magazine, not to help A&E. A&E then found itself in a bad position but will cash out on Phil's unplanned and premature screw up.  I think it was "opportunistic" but, again, not planned on A&E's part.  Duck Dynasty was skyrocketing. 

A&E would have eventually let Phil hang himself but only after the profits and ratings began falling just to milk Duck Dynasty a little more. A&E doesn't care about the Robertson's. However, A&E is own partly by Walt Disney that has been LGBT friendly. Phil's relatively private statements were tolerated but mainstream anti-gay statements in a national magazine are another story for this multi-billion dollar LGBT friendly corporation.

Just for the record: A&E and the Robertson family probably both share in the profits of these sale. I don't think that people realize this and the media is unlikely to advertise it because they are on A&E's side.

[Martin F. Atkins]

Plus, the Robertson's got millions of dollars with the help of A&E for acting like Louisiana rednecks. We certainly shouldn't feel bad for them--or at least I don't.

[Fan of Reason]

Right, I seriously doubt GQ and A&E have anything whatsoever to do with one another. A&E just pounced on the opportunity. A&E did not wait for the GQ interview to erupt BEFORE suspending Phil. A&E exploded the controversy, not GQ. Most networks/organizations seem to wait until people start pressuring them before making such a bold move, but not A&E with this issue. Plus, they "suspend" not fire him, implying they they intend to work it out and get him back on the show in time to shoot season 6.

 

I think that A&E knew it was a matter of time before they would no longer be able to contain Phil (they have tried to contain his religiousity on the show in the past). I do think that A&E has been prepared for how they would maximize profits by finding a way to use Phil's BS to their advantage. A&E knew what they had on their hands when they hired the family. GQ interview + Christmas retail time + plus Season 5 premier made the time ripe for the picking. 

 

Interestingly, an A&E publicist was present during Phil's interview with GQ, allowed his comments to go forward, and then A&E becomes "Shocked" at his comments once published, even before any organization put pressure on A&E to take action. Very suspicious.  http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2013/12/20/A-E-Likely-Knew-What-Robertson-Was-Saying-in-Fateful-Interview

 

Then again, maybe the Trinity network will agree to air Duck Dynasty and the family will bail. Who knows?

 

I agree with much of what you are saying, Martin. Most likely, the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Martin F. Atkins]

Here is a hilarious commentary about Duck Dynasty on YouTube by a Southern commentator.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KW343K1-upo

On Thursday, December 19, 2013 1:01:54 PM UTC-6, sudo wrote:

[Robert]

As an aside, many on the right (Rush, Hannity, FOX, et al.) are bringing up this kerfuffle saying that it is a violation of Mr. Robertson’s free speech, first amendment rights.  A letter recently in the CA said as much.  Obviously, no one in the gov’t has censored his speech.  A & E did that and they are well within their rights to do so as a private enterprise.  Duck Dynasty is suffering from the consequences of their free speech just as Xtians believe in suffering the consequences of sin.  Gov’t cannot censor free speech, but those speaking freely must bear the responsibility for the ramifications of it.

--

[Martin F. Atkins]

That would be a good letter to respond to.