St Kilda Rd separated lanes

[Nik Dow]

http://www.theweeklyreviewmelbournetimes.com.au/story/1833946/greens-mp-ellen-sandell-s-safer-cycling-call-after-sydney-road-death/

"VicRoads, with the City of Melbourne and the City of Port Phillip, is undertaking a feasibility study of separated bicycle lanes on St Kilda Road between Linlithgow Avenue and Carlise Street, said Adam Maguire, VicRoads Metropolitan North West Regional director."

Did anyone else know Victoads are doing a study?  Should we ring this Adam Maguire and ask for a meeting so we can discuss designs?  Otherwise BN will be "representing" us, which might not be ideal.  Raili & Thijs, did this study get mentioned when you raised St Kilda Rd with the ministers rep?  

I've been thinking about options for St Kilda Rd, and the problems of the many driveways in that road.  Whether bikes are on the right or the left side of cars, the driveways are a problem.  Therefore the best place for a bike lane is well away from the parked cars, to allow bikes and turning cars time to see each other, and for the turning cars to give way and have space to stop while doing so without blocking traffic.  That means putting the bike lane next to the footpath, and using the "nature strip" where it exists as the required buffer.  Alternatively, removing parking. 

The necessary replacement of the trees provides the opportunity to do the former, since the trees might be relocated in order to move the bike lane.  

Putting the bike lane next to the footpath is often done already in places where there is neither any parking nor a nature strip, but usually with a kerb and grade separation.  These would be necessary in St Kilda Rd which has quite a few pedestrians during the day.

Comments?

[Raili Simojoki]

I knew that, and the only reason I knew was because I asked one of my colleagues to send a letter to the Minister for Roads about her dooring experience on St Kilda Road, and then it was in the letter. They didn't mention COM and PP were involved though. By the way I contacted both recently about St Kilda Rd, and neither could talk to me about where they were at with the state, fair enough I guess. 

I think we should definitely contact Adam and make ourselves known.

And no, the traffic impact assessment, from my memory, was not mentioned at the meeting. I might have brought it up but I think the adviser just kind of went mmmm.... 

Be interested to hear what other people think about this. 

As to the design, not sure what you mean...can you send a picture to illustrate? 

Cheers 

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[Raili Simojoki]

Also, I note that St Kilda Rd would be a pretty good candidate for the $122.5 million - if they're basing on CrashStats and TAC criteria. 

[Justin Mansfield]

Why not suggest a separated lane, situated at the right hand side of the St Kilda Rd service road/s. This would avoid the driveways and would give a clear-ahead lane for city bound / outbound riders. Just a thought!

J

[Thijs]

For sure the traffic impact study was not mentioned during our meeting with the (adviser to the) Minister for Roads last week. Be interested to see your design ideas Nik!

[Nik Dow]

Problem with putting the bike lane next to the median strip is the junctions.  Many people would feel exposed out there.  It's also hard to get off your bike and reach a destination mid-block.  Remember St Kilda Rd is a major trip generator not just a through route.  I can't think of a successful bike city that does that.

Given that bikes are closer to pedestrians than to cars in their speed and vulnerability, that makes sense that cities around the world arrange the street with peds next to the property boundary, then bikes then parked cars if any, then motor traffic.  The only point I was making is that moving the bikes away from the parked cars, in the direction of the pedestrians would be better for visibility at the driveways.  It's also possible that at intersections the whole kaboodle can move slightly to the left as you go through the intersection so that a car waiting to enter/leave St Kilda rd has space to wait without blocking the bike and ped crossings.  My suggestion might require the trees to move into the parking lane or sideways within the footpath/nature strip, but this is feasible given that the master plan coincides with the due date to plant new trees, if you weren't aware, the existing trees are past their use-by date and are starting to senesce. City of Melbourne wants to replace them in one go to preserve an even-aged avenue effect whereas CoPP is already replacing individual trees as they require it, so CoPP might be a problem if we want to move the tree line.

Thijs, in terms of what commitments the minister's flunky might have given, would have been related to things (s)he knew were already happening.  They could also have committed to providing us with information, making us stakeholders in e.g. the St Kilda Rd design project.They have come into office without any plans, any commitment to achieve anything and it shows.

[Kevin Balaam]

I reckon that idea of a plane beside the median beside the service road would be great along Elizabeth St between Haymarket Roundabout and Victoria St/Pde. It would avoid the conflict problem between bikes and left turning vehicles, while allowing for bike storage boxes beside median strips at the large Queensberry St intersection (when crossing Elizabeth). The footpath is possibly good enough as a shared path that cyclists can enter at the intersections if they want to go to mid-block. But, no go for that idea. :(

[Kevin Balaam]

Ahh, spelling mistake in previous email... "plane" should be "lane".

[Jonathan Nolan]

The age ran another article on this today. 

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/plan-for-st-kilda-road-bike-lanes-in-centre-of-boulevard-too-dangerous-council-20170413-gvkn50.html

It seems what they're actually suggesting is that the lane run next to the tram line.

car lane|car lane|green median with trees|car lane|bike lane|tram track

This removes ALL vehicle conflicts along the route. The only conflict is for right turning vehicles but those movements are signalised the whole way down. This would be an incredible boon for safety. 

The issue becomes: what if someone wants to get to a location mid block? The increased safety of this treatment sacrifices convenience for those users. The only real question then is how many people are we inconveniencing? 

In some cases it works really well e.g. St George's Road because the majority of people get on at an intersection and go all the way to the city. Imagine having to slow down at every intersection and look for left turning cars on St George's Road?! What a nightmare! St Kilda Road does have more mid block destinations though which makes this a little more complicated. 

What I would say is that I'm wary of using other countries as a reference for what we do. Like it or not the average cyclist in Melbourne is going a far longer distance than one in Amsterdam and is therefore going at a higher speed. The risk from driveways and left turns at intersections from regular Copenhagen lanes is higher than it might be in other countries. While I agree our focus should be on those who are too scared to cycle we can't ignore the safety of those who already area. If we can create longer stretches where there are no unsignalised conflicts it will greatly reduce the risk of crash that other cities around the world can manage without removing the conflict but by slowing speed. 

I was on the fence but now I'm convinced: I support the median idea if implemented well. 

[Jonathan Nolan]

Here's Dan's response: saying no to any bike lanes. 

https://instaud.io/SA4

[Tyler B]

wow pathetic response from Dan Andrews. This guy clearly doesn't get it.

[Nik Dow]

I think @DanAndrewsMP gets it perfectly, when on talk-back radio it's safest to be anti-bicycle. Same government just knocked back footpath cycling (one less thing to fine bikes for) and introduced fines for using a phone on the bike to same level as car drivers (because bikes are just as dangerous). These are all anti-cycling. BTW footpath cycling is not ideal but it's one less thing the police can fine cyclists for. 

In actual fact the project is continuing and I've been talking to CoM in the last week, trying to ensure that safe footpath adjacent-but-separated-lanes is one of the options being considered.  At the moment I'm waiting for news to come back from the tree people to verify what CoM told me about 5 years ago, viz the trees are all so old they need to be replaced, which means we can consider new locations for them.  I do have a contact name at Vicroads as well but want to get CoM point of view sorted first. When we know more, we can hopefully arrive at a joint position with PPBUG and put our point of view.

Regarding representation by BN, they are agreeing to the centre-of-the-road proposal and when queried on this by PPBUG Garry's response was (I have this 2nd hand) that they weren't interested in member input.  

If the thought is that Vicroads proposal is bike lane all the way from tram track to median, I took a look today when I rode an O-bike down there and in places there are 2 car lanes in that space so I hardly think that is all going to be given to bikes. 

Where I disagree with Jonathan, is that prioritising faster cyclists will perpetuate the minority status of cycling because most people who aren't cycling now will not want to do that. Average speeds in high-cycling countries are 15-20 km/h. Higher speeds are possible if the path is wide enough, and with the design I'm proposing sight lines will generally be good enough to make that comfortable and safe as well.  

Centre-of-road lanes might be OK if there are also smaller lanes alongside the footpaths for local, slower, access but I doubt we can get both.  There also needs to be plenty of separation from cars if in the middle of the road, which would need the whole space between the existing medians to become grass, trees, tram and bike space.  Note that the current median trees can't be replanted closer to the centre because of rules about the view of the shrine.