Proposed use of Facebook

[Mekong Sustainable Farming Forum]

Posted on behalf of Michael Thevenet.
-------------------------------------

I am one of the silent happy readers of your blog and I follow with great interest what you’re currently doing in Laos and beyond. (I’ve been living in Vientiane for 9 years, thus the strong link with the whole area.)

I’m currently living in China, Chengdu Sichuan to be more precise. China is one of those places that are most in need of permaculture and all those self-sufficiency stuffs. It’s also a walled country. Digitally walled.

To access the Google services, one needs to use a VPN, which the local government is not happy with. It’s a continuous cat and mouse game, a very tiring game, indeed. But I was willing to play that game to access the list and follow the discussion, since I do not feel imprisoned by Google services.

You now intend to transfer your assets to Facebook, which is also banned in China. And which impose to setup a Facebook account to be allowed to participate.

I have no Facebook account. By choice. I had one for five years, with a lot of connections, and finally killed it years ago. Facebook is the digital equivalent of Monsanto for the Internet as a whole. They curtail freedom of speech (no boobs on FB, but beheadings are OK, what do you think?). They limit the visitors rights to what their lawyers and owners consider suitable, and profitable, for them, not for the users. They make their users content their own property (especially the metadata, which is where the value, and the control, lie).

Being involved in Permaculture is all about choices and long term sustainability. A sustainable choice to build an online presence should depend on open source software and open platforms. Not on a private company that consider growth as its ultimate horizon.

It was good to see the permaculture Mekong basin initiatives start. I’m afraid I won’t be able to see how things unfold in the future.

All the best
michael

[David West]

Thank you for writing Michael.

Whilst I was not part of the discussions related to a new set-up, I have written to Chris expressing very similar concerns to yourself.
I guess the people at the convergence are not really computer people, and therefore unlikely to make the best choices regarding any new platform..
 Having lived and worked in China for seven years, including three months in Chengdu, I DO understand your frustrations.
Your words will be carefully listened to, I'm sure

Kind regards

David

[onedoug902]

May I suggest as in the resent problems in Turkey when no one was allowed to say any thing on the internet, they communicated via the Tor network.................. https://www.torproject.org/

Doug

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[David West]

Yes Doug - that might be worth considering. It was one of my options while in China, and it does overcome the Great Firewall problem.

However,  we would still need a base for members to register. People in China can use Tor now, to access anything - they can accesss this group through Tor, or through a VPN as Michael is doing. Tor is really like a free VPN.

I know Facebook is the most popular, and that most youngsters already have an account, and that it is multilingual so they understand it, probably far better than I do, but I don't like it for its morality or for the storing and filing of information - it's more like a game and we are trying to be more serious than that,
If somoenoe fouls up and the account gets taken away, all the data is lost - we need something more permanent I think.
I wonder if the folks at The Permaculture Research Institute might let us use their software - I know that would be perfect as it is specifically designed to do what we are doing, on a world-wide basis - maybe we could use a subset of it?
David

[Rosanne]

Hi David, Doug, and Michael x 2, 

David, you asked for my input about the recent Convergence at Chachoengsao. As I could not be there myself, and don't know all the details, see cc of Michael Commons' email - Michael was the core person for that event, who can send you all relevant material. There is also a very nice website.

Michael C, you may have heard about David's mekongfarm group via (if I recall correctly) Chris, who reported on the Convergence.

At this point, seeing how permaculture is fast gaining (at last) in pockets in Asia, it could well make sense to have a single platform for all concerned in our region.

PRI would be nice. Another solution would be a totally independent carrier such as unseen.is, that operates out of Iceland - but would it be accessible in China? Perhaps it would, since it is not dominated by the 'wrong' powers?

All the best,

Rosanne

Sent from my iPad

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[David]

This is the response from PRI - on-going.
I think this is the best bet if we are allowed or able to use it.
I like the look of Unseen too - shades of Julian Assange, one of my heroes.

David


Hi David,

Craig is no longer with the PRI. My name is Jason and I am assisting with its website operations.

We are not the developers of the Platform and anti spam software so we are unable to provide it to you.

What I will do is speak to one of the forums administrators about any accommodations that they can make for your group.

Chat Soon,

Jason

--

A changing point of view helps to see more clearly

[David]

Dear Michael and Marcel,

Thanks for the input - you clearly are in advance of most of us as far as computers are concerned.

What I think might be most important right now is to gather together the email addresses of those who are interested in this project. The Mekong Sustainable Farmers Group is in operation and available for anyone to join right now, so I think it would be advantageous to invite all those who were at the convergence to join up with MSFF for now, so that we can work jointly on the most suitable platform.
Unfortunately I have already experienced a site based on Joomla where the author left, and the site became of no use. We need something far more simple than Joomla. Our needs are not that sophisticated - mainly a communication and storage of information, and an address register. If we keep it really simple it has a far better chance of success, as more people will participate.

I have sent you both an invitation to join MSFF, and if you like I could make you administrators so that you can invite others - or else I can add them if you send me their addresses
Kind regards

David

On 4/2/2015 5:12 PM, Marcel Ventosa wrote:

Thank you for including me in this discussion. It is always refreshing
to be in touch with others who value their privacy and who are concerned
about freedom in their computing. It is a vast topic, so we will have to
find a way to narrow it down to what we want to work on, or think about
working on, first.

I also have a few other things to finish now that Michael kindly lent me
an extra laptop power cord (I forgot mine in town and won't have it back
until tomorrow).


_FREE SOFTWARE_

I am primarily a free software activist. Free software is the first
struggle in the liberation of cyberspace. If you are unfamiliar with
software freedom, there is a 2 minute and 53 second video at
https://fsf.org that should explain the bare basics.

I do not use many of the "Service as a Software Substitute" (facebook,
gmail, google maps, twitter, etc.) solutions because they force me to
run proprietary javascript software on my computer. I also do not use
them because of the broader ethical implications and profiling whether
for profit, power or both.


_FACEBOOK, GOOGLE & THE DIGITAL ROBBER BARONS_

I read from the original e-mail on the thread that the blog visitor does
not use facebook. I find that inspiring and agree with his reasoning. I
would extend an equal or worse judgment toward google and add that
everytime I e-mail a gmail account google mines its data and builds up
on my dossier/profile/sim and that this is done without my permission.
As such, my e-mail is hosted by a small company that charges me in
currency in a hopefully favorable jurisdiction, and I stay as far away
as possible from the digital monopolies. But I still interact with users
of some of these walled-gardens because otherwise I would be a digital
hermit.


_ALTERNATIVES & SOLUTIONS_

In any case, there are several good replacements for facebook. The best
ones in my opinion are decentralized federated networks. What this means
is that anyone can setup an instance of these networks on his or her own
server (computer) and host it for themselves or for others (or both).
Some people host public instances that live off donations, as is the
case with https://quitter.is as a replacement for twitter. This website
is an instance of a software called GNUsocial and exists in a federation
of such instances. There are similar alternatives for facebook-like
social networks although I would have to look into them before
recommending one versus another. One such instance is Diaspora and
perhaps GNU also has a replacement. The technical component is there. In
terms of a mass migration I believe we're still early, but a social
network that could host a natural farming/permaculture community could
be a great start and would give us a space online to stand away from the
corporate monopolies. If the software must be maintained on a server I
would recommend looking for someone who can do this for us.

There is another great project which aims to be a replacement for the
video and photo and media sharing companies. This can be browsed at:
https://mediagoblin.com/ It can likewise be hosted on a decentralized
server. It can even be turned into an intranet at home where you can
consume media without media consuming you.

These solutions assume that users (as opposed to the 'useds', when the
service is 'gratis') will pay some money for this as there are costs
associated with the bandwidth and storage used on a server.

Regina, who came to the Convergence, told me her brother wanted to start
something like a decentralized social network for people involved in
permaculture or natural farming. If you are interested I can inquire
further. He lives in Germany and works in IT in a large city and would
be more appropriate than me (a bourgeoning farmer) at executing and
making this work on a continuous basis. Please let me know if this
interests you and I will consult with her. From what she told me he
would want to recover the operating costs and perhaps receive a small
remuneration for the time and efforts spent (this would be an ongoing
commitment). Whether a small membership fee or a donation system is
something to be discussed.


_TRADING WEBSITE_

I offered to create a trading website for Thai farmers. Something small,
homegrown and accessible to anyone who wishes to trade (whether or not
they use centralized social media). From a technical standpoint I think
I will run an instance of Joomla! with a shopping cart add-on. We will
see how that goes and if you want to take a peak as it's being developed
let me know and I will include you in updates. If anyone has alternative
ideas, please let me know. I want to keep this simple because it worries
me to end up being a systems administrator instead of a farmer. It
should be maintained by several people and should require minimum
technical maintenance.


_PRIVACY_

In terms of privacy there is a distinction we need to make between:

*Strategic Surveillance* - Mass unjustified dragnet surveillance of
populations.

*Tactical Surveillance* - Targeted surveillance (whether justified or
not) of specific subjects.

In my opinion, what we must struggle against first is strategic
surveillance. It exists because now-a-days it's cheaper to spy on
everyone than to pick and choose. Tactical surveillance is something
altogether different and very difficult to avoid against powerful
adversaries. It may also be justified in some cases (killers, rapists, I
don't know), but should require judicial oversight before taking place
(in my opinion).


_ANONYMITY_

This is different than privacy and should not be confused with it. In
this e-mail, we have no anonymity and no privacy. If we encrypted the
e-mail we would have privacy but no anonymity. If we managed to create
e-mail accounts unlinked to us and accessed them through Tor (for
example) and sent unencrypted e-mails we would have anonymity but no
privacy.

In my opinion, on-line anonymity is very difficult to achieve and almost
impossible to maintain in the long-run. It is a hassle and even people
with very good operational security fail at it.


_E-MAIL_

The e-mail I use is https://runbox.com if anyone is interested. I think
I paid 44 dollars for 2 years. I do not assume that governments cannot
read my e-mails (even when in transit). I avoid google and all the other
gratis companies because they explicitly require me to accept for them
to data mine my information. I find this unacceptable.

There are several e-mail alternatives that live on donations. One such
trusty alternative is https://riseup.net This is a service run by an
anarchist collective in the US. It is also hosted in the US, but I think
it can be trusted.

With any service this is a coin toss. I try to chose carefully but
cannot be 100% sure.

------

This has become quite long. I apologize. I am including Ning, my wife,
because this tends to interest her too. Although for now I think she
won't have time to actively participate.

Kind regards,
Marcel

On 04/02/2015 02:42 PM, Michael Commons wrote:

Dear All,

I am now sending this to Marcel who is very concerned about these
matters and quite an expert in the alternatives.  I all am concerned if
not as strongly but most willing to support an alternative that better
protects our rights to privacy and ownership of our information.

Out of the convergence, one key objective that was launched was to
create (an internal) barter network.  Primarily to trade products of our
farms, seeds, etc.

Marcel was looking to do this in a way that can maintain our privacy and
ownership of information.   While he volunteered to cover some costs, we
have a surplus from the convergence that we have agreed can be used for
such purposes and other initiatives.  This should cover website fees and
server costs at least for a while.

Xavier, put the website together and launched the Facebook page.  He is
also clearly an expert at this but not nearly so concerned about privacy
and ownership issues.

My suggestion was we use the very public means to invite people to our
private party.  So we can operate in both systems but hopefully have a
place where we can freely share thoughts and data that is not being
surveiled and such.

Kind Regards,

Michael


On Apr 2, 2015, at 12:01 PM, Rosanne wrote:

Hi David, Doug, and Michael x 2, 

David, you asked for my input about the recent Convergence at
Chachoengsao. As I could not be there myself, and don't know all the
details, see cc of Michael Commons' email - Michael was the core
person for that event, who can send you all relevant material. There
is also a very nice website.

Michael C, you may have heard about David's mekongfarm group via (if I
recall correctly) Chris, who reported on the Convergence.

At this point, seeing how permaculture is fast gaining (at last) in
pockets in Asia, it could well make sense to have a single platform
for all concerned in our region.

PRI would be nice. Another solution would be a totally independent
carrier such as unseen.is <http://unseen.is/>, that operates out of
Iceland - but would it be accessible in China? Perhaps it would, since
it is not dominated by the 'wrong' powers?

All the best,
Rosanne

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 1, 2558 BE, at 15:32, David West <dgw...@gmail.com
<mailto:dgw...@gmail.com>> wrote:

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[David]

I do hope Michael and Marcel received their invitations to join the Mekong Sustainable Farmers Forum.

If the idea of using MSFF as a starting point is not acceptable, then can someone suggest an alternative that is available here and now, before we begin to loose the enthusiasm generated from the highly successful Convergence.

I'm open to all ideas, and have some free time to help.

Kind regards

David

[Rosanne]

Hi all,

From all this discussion, I want to retain Michael Commons point about using what is already there. Namely a very nice website done for this year's Convergence, and the existing FB page to attract a wider audience + Link up with David's Mekong SFF, see how and if it would be possible to integrate with Convergence.

From prior experience with my silk project, I know it is important to have something sexy looking in addition to real content - both form and substance count for attracting and retaining interest. In this respect the Convergence site is a good starting point.

Both the MSFF and the Convergence should be listed in the PRI world permaculture network. It's good to have that resource. For the time being,  it can't be much more than a loose collection of largely individual projects. Its value is mainly, from what I see, in offering visitors possible connections with others in the same area - and for now, there isn't a whole lot of stuff from our region - while it doesn't federate regional groupings much (which I see as a possible way to increase its outreach). Our insertion there as SEAsia Convergence/MSFF could be useful in more ways than one. But it shouldn't be our sole platform.

From browsing the cyber world for PMC I find the liveliest sites tend to be regional or subregional, with lots of resources suited to specific local conditions - that is what we should aim for here, along with insertion in/links with the worldwide sites.

The more links we have and offer, the more traffic will come.

The toughest aspect is reconciling privacy and open source concerns with obstacles in cyber geopolitics. On the one hand the concerns of those in countries where the defense of cyber freedoms is still possible and thriving,  on the other the concerns of those who simply want access of any type to desired info. Since we are not engaging in anything threatening (at least until the monsantoes get us all tagged with the T word), solidarity would dictate that we stay with tools than enable access for those under harsher cyber regimes, at least for the core site. 

As regards restrictions such as in China, the Convergence site on Wordpress shouldn't be a problem, should it? Let the FB page do its job where it is allowed to, and the Convergence and MSFF sites/pages do theirs where they can. In fact, considering the multiplicity of obstacles in today's cyber geopolitics, the more entry points and linked platforms we have, the better - people can find us through a variety of channels. I see that many alternative info and analysis providers are increasingly having to diversify their platforms... 

One last consideration, the platform has to be the most user friendly for both admin and user. Joomla for instance is a no-no, way too heavy and complicated - impossible to use where Internet is less than optimal, or where multiple proxies have to be transited through. Wordpress is way better, and allows lots of functions including videos, pics, blogs, sales, visual enhancements... 

Could the (desirable, from what Michael says) P2P device accommodate all of the above? 

Cheers,

Rosanne

Sent from my iPad

On Apr 5, 2558 BE, at 18:24, michael thevenet <m...@boson2x.org> wrote:

Thanks to all for taking the time to consider alternatives to the monopolies to establish a new home for the permies in SE Asia.

As noted before, China is a digitally walled place. I gave a try to unseen.is, it’s blocked. Currently, quitter.is is accessible, don’t know for how long. In fact, it’s almost impossible to decide what to build on which foundations when it comes to deliver the content to mainland China. This is particularly true since Mr Xi is the president. Under his lead, controls are getting tougher and stronger.

To go back to the current topic, I suggest to define precisely the needs you as a community want to satisfy before deciding anything about the (technological and human) means.

I also suggest to study two existing platforms before trying to reinvent the wheel.

a. The Worldwide Permaculture network (http://permacultureglobal.org/): it has been developed and launched by the original Permaculture Research Institute (the Australian one) years ago. Despite the PRI strong support, the network is still struggling to reach a wide audience.

b. The P2P Foundation (http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Foundation:About) draws lessons from P2P technologies to suggest ways to change the way society works. Their founder, Michel Bauwens, lives in Chiang Mai. His experience and wit could help your group make some wise choices.

All the best

michael

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[David]

Dear Michael, Rosanne et al

Your wise words have caused me to change tack.
I was originally thinking of a central register through which we could contact each other easily, but I think your idea works far better, and in my mind sets a model for the way all things may work in the future. It's along the same lines as Tor, and all other enterprising activities that are based on distributed nodes instead of one central organisation.

New Thinking
--------------
We do not need a central register.
We do not need to consider people behind a firewall.

In the same vain as Rosanne, I have been trying to analyse our needs a little better and sort the wheat from the chaff.

Firstly, I think it should be each individusl's responsibility to determine the way in which they access the web.
In the same way that Michael has used a VPN, each person who is behind a firewall has to find their own way around it, and that access method will enable them to access our forms and databases.

(Sorry for the following hieroglyphics, but they are essential.)
I suggest fr**g*te (* used otherwise the message will not be delivered to China - write to me and I can email a coded copy which you can decode). I tested it today and it works very well. Doug is checking it out too, and perhaps Michael could try it. I will avoid placing the name here to avoid the Chinese servers  blocking the message

What we need is really what we already have - a few facilitators who are prepared to donate their efforts to promoting the cause of permaculture and sustainable farming around South East Asia and the Mekong Basin.

If these facilitators become members of each others groups then there is a path for all messages.

For example, as administrator of Mekong Sustainable Farmers Forum (MSFF) I could join the Facebook group, and transfer any suitable information from the Facebook group to MSFF. Then any other facilitators of MSFF would receive an abridged version of the Facebook page. This way all information would eventually get circulated without the need for a central register.

So if anyone requires an invitation to MSFF please let me know.

Ideally anyone should be able to join any of our three linked groups which I see as
Convergence Facebook
Convergence Wordpress
MSFF
all three of which are blocked in China
-------------------------
I tried to join at

http://www.thailandpermacultureconvergence.org/join/

but it is now closed so maybe the closing date could be changed and left open so that we have a 'convergence' group website that we can join.
I see this site is built on a Wordpress basis which is also blocked in China but Fr**ga** will solve that. Although I haven't used Wordpress (because of the Chinese thing) I have looked at it, and the free version probably does what we want, though someone may need to pay a hosting fee as hosting is not free (Godaddy for example is $10 per year). The site that is there already could easily be made to suit I think.

I tried to join the Convergence Facebook page at
 https://www.facebook.com/ThailandPermacultureConvergence/info?tab=page_info
but it seems as though joining is no longer possible.
It seems that both sites are considered closed with no ong-oing activity expected. That's a pity.

If anyone requires an invitation to MSFF please let me know.
Or subscribe yourself at:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/mekongfarm

Also please let me know of any groups that I can join now to receive information, and to communicate information from MSFF members.

Kindest regards

David

On 4/5/2015 6:24 PM, michael thevenet wrote:

Thanks to all for taking the time to consider alternatives to the monopolies to establish a new home for the permies in SE Asia.

As noted before, China is a digitally walled place. I gave a try to unseen.is, it’s blocked. Currently, quitter.is is accessible, don’t know for how long. In fact, it’s almost impossible to decide what to build on which foundations when it comes to deliver the content to mainland China. This is particularly true since Mr Xi is the president. Under his lead, controls are getting tougher and stronger.

To go back to the current topic, I suggest to define precisely the needs you as a community want to satisfy before deciding anything about the (technological and human) means.

I also suggest to study two existing platforms before trying to reinvent the wheel.

a. The Worldwide Permaculture network (http://permacultureglobal.org/): it has been developed and launched by the original Permaculture Research Institute (the Australian one) years ago. Despite the PRI strong support, the network is still struggling to reach a wide audience.

b. The P2P Foundation (http://p2pfoundation.net/P2P_Foundation:About) draws lessons from P2P technologies to suggest ways to change the way society works. Their founder, Michel Bauwens, lives in Chiang Mai. His experience and wit could help your group make some wise choices.

All the best

michael

On 3 Apr 2015, at 12:01, David <dgw...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Marcel Ventosa]

Dear David,

I did join the group and have been reading the e-mails. For the time
being I'm usually quite busy during the weekends, but I'll do my best to
participate. Especially if there's a particular need for me to do so.

I have just arrived to Thailand a little more than two months ago and
have just moved to the place where I will live about five weeks ago, so
I have many different things that keep me away from the computer (for
good or bad!).

Please accept my apologies if it sometimes takes me a few days to
respond, but please know I will do so.

Kind regards,
Marcel

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