Bank Holiday Conundrum

[Richard Ratcliffe]

In turning out a lot of drawers of old photos I came across the attached.  Maybe I should know what it is (I don't!) but maybe someone out there in Bus Club land can solve the puzzle.  Who were Stella Coaches?  What make is the vehicle?  The Kent registration is about the only clue.  Reference to the Club's M&D Fleet History suggests that the KJ sequence at 3xxx was probably issued in 1931 or 1932.  The vehicle has pneumatic tyres.

No prizes - just the satisfaction of knowing the answer!

Richard Ratty

[davidb...@gmail.com]

Richard

 

I didn’t know – hadn’t even heard of them, but a Google links them with a previous incarnation of Chalkwell Coaches

Family-run Coach Hire and Bus Company Kent - Chalkwell Coach Hire

 

Dave Burrin

 

 

Sent: 23 August 2025 16:04

[Richard Ratcliffe]

Thanks Dave.  The piece thrown up by Google refers to Mr Eglinton Snr buying out Medway operator Stella Coaches in 1935.

So...... Stella was a Medway independent in the early 30's.  ...then we just need the vehicle details.

RR

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From: mdekb...@googlegroups.com <mdekb...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of davidb...@gmail.com <davidb...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2025 7:57:53 PM
To: mdekb...@googlegroups.com <mdekb...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [Invicta] Bank Holiday Conundrum

 

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[DerekJ]

Hi Richard

You've actually raised this question before, back in 2020 - see https://groups.google.com/g/mdekbusclub/c/QvJzaEMTSgo/m/88XTdZp1BAAJ 

The original owner of KJ 3834 was Fred Sands of Hoo, though the Stella Coaches fleetname was something I don't think we had come across before.

John Watts in his "Who is this Mr Wilberjim?" book states that Fred Sands was taken over by M&D in 1933, but no vehicles seem to have been involved, so 
this presumably refers to licences only.  The reference to Chalkwell buying Stella in 1935 is on their own website - https://chalkwell.co.uk/about/ , under the "Early Days" tab.  Since John Watts quotes Sands as trading as "Black & White" we just have to allow for the possibility that Stella was a second owner after 1933, not Sands himself, in which case we still don't know who it was.

KJ 3834 is listed by the PSV Circle as a Bedford WLB with a Duple body (shown as B20- but almost certainly B20F, though that isn't obvious from the photo).

It was new to F Sands in 11/31 and KCC registers show it was supplied through Chatham Motor Company.

Hope this goes some way to answering the questions.

Derek

[DRH]

The Omnibus Society operator listings for Kent give :  Fred Sands, Werburgh? 1922-1931 L (i.e. local bus service).  Cessation date is clearly suspect.

Motor Transport Year Book 1935-6 gives F Sands, 1 High Street, Hoo, Rochester (RSL/S) (i.e. Stage Carriage licence).  Probably defunct entry carried forward from earlier editions.

But MTYB 1935/6 also gives Stella Coaches (WHJ Fisher), 57 Linden Avenue, London NW10 (RSL/ E&T) (i.e. Excursions & Tours)

DRH

[Nicholas King]

I too remember previous correspondence on this subject, so some of what follows may duplicate what was exchanged then (thanks to Derek for resurrecting it).

                There are two distinct operators here.  Files of legal agreements for M&D operator purchases in the 1930s came our way after F.2 was published, and contain quite a lot of additional information.

                W Harry Sands, The Garage, Wouldham sold out to M&D (C&D as an interested party) on 24/10/31, following an agreement signed on 20/10/31.  The relevant documents are in envelope 786.  The transferred fleet is listed as KM 3803 (Dennis 14-seater), KM 5494 (Dennis 14-seater), KO 3763 (Dennis 14-seater) and KP 2733 (Gilford 20-seat allweather).  Of these, KM 3803 is not shown in M&D cost office records.  The other three don’t seem to have been used and were sold on to Leyland Motors 1/32 (see page 32 of F.2).  The agreement covered a licence between Chatham and Snodland (2191), on which DD were disallowed.  M&D took this over under a succession of short-term authorisations until a formal licence was granted.

Sands also had a licence (1884) for excursions between Rochester and Lenham Sanatorium, granted on 28/9/31.  The agreement allowed Sands to honour an existing booking on 31/10/31 by “Sports Fund, Naval Depot, Chatham”.  No details are given; perhaps this was the final day of the Lenham Sanatorium operation, of which I have no subsequent trace.

                Also in the envelope are subsequent M&D internal memos, the first dated 28/5/35 drawing attention to a Derby excursion being advertised from the Waterman’s Arms, Wouldham.  This was referred to the Traffic Commissioners as infringing the 1931 agreement.  It turned out that the trip was being run by Harry Sands’ son with a 6-seat Hillman.  Harry himself is quoted in this correspondence as being the M&D parcel agent at Wouldham.  M&D’s solicitors wrote to the son, who claimed no knowledge of the 1931 agreement.  Argy-bargy ensued, the crux of which was that he was charging fares for his excursion although holding no licence.  The file goes dry after a letter back to M&D from their solicitors on 4/7/35 saying that the son had not replied to further correspondence, so it seems the case was then dropped.

                Fred Sands, 1 High Street, Hoo sold out to M&D (C&D as an interested party) under an agreement signed 6/2/33 and an assignment dated 14/2/33, covering goodwill and licences, but no vehicles.  As far as I can trace,  he held a licence (10172) between Stoke and Chatham, which is shown in issue 94 of N&P as “revoked by consent”.  This had replaced an earlier licence (1788) between Fen [sic] and Chatham which had been granted from 1/12/31 following appeal against initial refusal to grant, and then suspended from 13/6/32 to 31/7/32 for unstated reasons.  The agreement and assignment, which are in envelope 865, allow Sands to continue within a tightly-defined geographical area with two vehicles (a 14-seater and a 20-seater) until 31/5/33, then one vehicle (a 20-seater) until 30/9/33, and one vehicle (a 7-seater) thereafter.  I have no further trace of these operations, and tend to agree that the MTYB entry of 1935/6 for Fred Sands was an unwitting hang-over.

                I’ve not come across the Stella fleetname before in connection with either of the Sands operations.  Nor has anyone ever discovered, to my knowledge, whether the two men were related.

 

                I hope some of this may help and clarify.

 

Nicholas King

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[DerekJ]

Some digging with the help of ancestry.com and other sources reveals that Harry Sands may have been Fred's older brother, both siblings (and several others) born to John & Phoebe Sands of Wouldham.  Harry was born in December 1884 and Fred in about 1893 (exact date not yet traced), and both appear to have worked at the local Cement works (as did many, including their father) for the early part of their careers.  During the 1930s (from at least 1930 to 1938) it appears Harry became the landlord of the Waterman's Arms - http://www.dover-kent.com/2014-project/Watermans-Arms-Wouldham.html - while it looks as if Fred moved to Hoo St Werburgh to run the general store at 1 High Street. So for both the sale of their PSV operations would probably have helped to finance their subsequent occupations.

Derek J

[Nicholas King]

Thank you for this useful collateral, Derek.

 

Nicholas King

 

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