VIN Numbers

[Neal Dion]

I've been trying to run down some information on my SEC and I've encountered an interesting problem - maybe someone in the group can give me some guidance.  The car that I have (VIN #  WDB1260441A204201 ) is, according to all of my paperwork (titles, import paperwork, EPA Certifications, etc.), a 1987 560SEC.  I believe that this car was purchased by an American for European delivery.  It has some unique options that I haven't seen on any other SEC that I have seen on BaT, Hemmings, MBCA publications or any of the other national auction or sales sites.  It has a factory installed trip computer (the computer takes the place of where the tach would normally be, the tach is a half circle in the upper left of the dash above the temp gage).  It has a gas fired cabin preheater, no self leveling suspension, ortho drivers seat, the selectable transmission and manual two zone heat/AC.  The speedometer is in MPH, but some of the controls are in German.  Anyway, its kind of an odd duck.

When I put the VIN number in several of the VIN search sites, they come back and tell me that it is an incorrect number.  Others come back with results that match the car in some respects (color of exterior/interior , its got a sunroof, heated seats, etc.), but, they say that it is a 500SEC ordered in Henne, Germany and built in October of 1985.  Also, none of the "special" options, cited above, are listed.  Strange?  Also, my understanding is that there were several different engines available (not counting the AMG engines), all the same displacement but different levels of tune.  I would really like to know which this car has.

Let me make it clear that I am in no way casting any aspersions on the way that the car was represented by the previous owner who bought it directly from the estate of the original owner.  All of the paperwork identifies it as an `87 560SEC, but the VIN doesn't.  I am toying with the possibility of selling this car.  I love this car and I've put about 20K on it since I bought it back in 2014, including a trip from FL to Chicago and back.  Every time I drive it I'm impressed by the power and feel of the automobile - its got class!  But I have a storage problem (4 cars and a golf cart, 3 car garage) and there are a couple of other things that I have my eye on - something has to go, it's either this, my 560SL or my old Land Rover.  

Any help, advice, suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks.........

[Mike Ramay]

What a simple problem!! I present, for your consideration and convenience, a 4-post hydraulic lift. Keep them all, just stack them.

Mike Ramay
cell: (702) 494-8056

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[Neal Dion]

Mike, I think that’s an outstanding idea!   And, if I had sufficient ceiling height in the garage I would be all over it, but I don’t and I’m too old to move, again.  All the best - thanks.

[Mike Ramay]

Or buy much lower cars. :-)

Mike Ramay
cell: (702) 494-8056

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[Gerry Van Zandt]

That VIN is showing a European delivered 500SEC, but with a US delivery package as one of the options. Yet the VIN you give is not a US VIN -- it is a ROW VIN (actually what MB calls a FIN).  Very interesting.

From what you are describing, the Webasto pre-heater, trip computer, lack of SLS in the rear, ortho front seat, E/S transmission switch, and manual A/C are all very strong evidence that it is a "Euro" delivered model.  None of those items were ever offered on a US-spec W126 model. 

Your engine is confirmed per the VIN to be a 117.965 -- definitely a 5-liter variant. Difficult to say which of the variants that were available unless you look at certain characteristics.  If it were a 560, it would be a 117.968.  The data card is saying that the paint was blue-green metallic over a gray leather interior.

None of those "Euro" options are showing up on the data card, yet there are 4-5 option codes that are CLEARLY marking this as a US-market car (though as you said it was DELIVERED in Germany). 

My guess is one of two things happened:

1) VERY LIKELY -- The original owner had some of these items installed after the fact, in Europe, when the car was new, but after he took delivery and before the car was brought into the US.  The options clearly show that this was a US car by way of the instruments being in MPH, US-delivery code, elimination of warning triangle/first aid kit, and US-spec Becker radio. So it is no doubt that that the car left the factory as a US-spec vehicle in all respects.  If any of those Euro items would have been installed at the factory, they would have had it on the data card.  So, my guess is that the owner had a dealer do a bunch of work at the time or just after he took delivery of the car.  The factory is very strict and very accurate in terms of documenting on the data card how the car was equipped when it left the factory.

2) MUCH LESS LIKELY -- The Euro items were transplanted into the car after it arrived in the US.  This is pretty implausible, because it would be EXCEEDINGLY difficult to get all of these items in the US (US dealers would not have been able to order them due to the MBNA "comm-block" on Euro parts), but it could be a possibility.  Also, perhaps a bit more plausible, a true gray-market "Euro" car, which had all of those parts installed from the factory, had these parts transplanted into your car here in the US.  This could have happened through a knowledgable shop, though it would have entailed A LOT of work -- so much work (for example, for the two-zone climate control system) that it is also largely implausible, though POSSIBLE.  Same with the Webasto pre-heater -- a lot of plumbing and parts that would require special know-how, which would have been largely unknown here in the US, and still pretty much is to this day.

I have a 1995 G-wagen (a gray-market vehicle) that has the Webasto pre-heater installed, which was installed at the factory.  It is quite an intricate thing and not for the faint of heart.  I have a very hard time imagining anyone in the US being able to retrofit such a unit into an existing car without some specialized knowledge and lots of time.

Do the internal upholstery color, and the external color, match up with the data card?

My guess is that the car was registered as a 560SEC for convenience and to avoid hassles, perhaps by a sympathetic DMV employee, because that was the closest equivalent in the US.  The car, being equipped from the factory as a US model, would have had all of the equipment installed at the factory that met US regulations (including turn signal lens color, headlights, speedo, and most likely safety equipment).

Still, as you say, this is an unusual bird. There is very definitely a story with this car.  I have never really seen a car delivered in Germany, but with US equipment, and with a Euro VIN number.  European Delivery cars would have been full-on US cars on the data card (as yours is) but with a US VIN, easily imported into the US, and correctly listed as to what the model was.

I wonder if you could contact the heirs of the original owner and try to get the story.  Or see if they have any paperwork.  And talk to the person who sold the car to you as well, to see if he knows anything.

Cheers,
Gerry

[Neal Dion]

Gerry - Thank you for your input, it is appreciated!  

In answer to your question, the car is blue - green metallic (877U) and the interior leather is grey.  Your number one guess may very well be correct, although it seems like a lot of work (and expense!) for a German language metric trip computer and a complicated cabin heating system.  I should have also mentioned that the car has the Euro bumpers, the reflective triangle in the trunk and the dial next to the light switch that controls the tilt of the headlights (though it is disconnected).  There is a Customs sticker in the door jam that identifies it as an `87 and says that it complies with all applicable US bumper regulations - strange?   The VT plate is from the previous owner, but it's a good photo - the car now is in FL.

Thanks.......Neal

[Mike Ramay]

With a non-US VIN, the car was brought in via a Registered Importer, Joseph Offerman. I worked for an RI in California for a couple of years and we were responsible for ensuring that 1. the car physically met US DOT / EPA requirements, and 2. providing DOT and EPA with the proper paperwork proving it. Then, and only then, could we release the car to the owner. Looks like that is what path your car took to get into the US.

Mike Ramay
cell: (702) 494-8056

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[Axel Wulff]

The VIN on your vehicle shows that it is not a North America vehicle. The VIN reads WDBCAxxxxxx for vehicles made for the North American market.

Your vehicle is a "Grey Import" vehicle, common in the early 80's, less common after 1986.

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Cheers,

 

Axel Wulff

610-731-5453

[gerryvz]

This does look to me like a grey market car, with a registered importer sticker.  And I agree that the VIN is not a US VIN, as I said.   The sticker looks more amateurish than a lot of importer stickers and plaques I have seen.  I wonder if the Joseph Offerman is the importer's name, or the original owner's name.

But what throws me is all of the US equipment listed on the data card, and all of the non-US equipment actually in the car. The photos show the standard Webasto pre-heater control (same as my G-wagen has) as well as the trip computer controls in the center console. 

The thing is, there is no question that the pre-heater and the Reiserechner (trip computer) WOULD HAVE BEEN LISTED ON THE DATA CARD if the car left the factory with these items.  The fact that the data card shows a US-spec car, albeit with a non-US VIN number, but delivered in Germany, is a combination I've not seen before.  My gray-market G-wagen shows the Webasto pre-heater listed on the data card, for example, because it left the factory with it.

If the car wasn't imported until 1987, as the sticker says, then this is what I think happened.

1) The car was purchased in the summer/fall of 1985 by a US customer as an early 1986 model year European Delivery car, but with US equipment from the factory.

2) The car was in Germany for over a year, and the owner had a bunch of European specific equipment installed either by an MB dealer, or a shop/tuner who knew what they were doing.  SOMEONE did all that stuff, but after the fact.  That includes the Euro bumpers and sich.

3) The car was then brought into the US in 1987, and registered as a 1987 560SEC.  It looks to me that the importer just did that because it was a readily available model to put the car down as. 

4) The car already had US-spec equipment from the factory, so it would have been fairly easy for an importer to just say "yes it meets all requirements, here it is listed on the factory data card"

By the way, the "order" location (Munich) just means that the car was ORDERED in that location, not necessarily DELIVERED in that location.  Though it could have been delivered there, too.

There was a wide variance in how closely cars were inspected after they were converted by importers in the 1980s. Thus, you see a lot of gray market cars with the smaller Euro bumpers still installed, while others had the correct US bumpers added..  This car would have been pretty easy to fudge, because it has the code 491 on the data card, "US Version" which means that it left the factory as a complete, full-on US model.

[Paul Samarin]

Sell the SL and keep the SEC.  You’ll be happier.

[Neal Dion]

Hi everyone -

I spent the money with the Classic Center to get the Data Card for my car, copy attached.  Any German speakers out there?  They told that it would come in English, and most of it is, but there are five codes described in German and one (#444) that just has two numbers after it.  Any help in deciphering this will be appreciated.   Thanks…….Neal

[Bogi Maramski]

Is this the data card from MB classic that cost $150 ?

Im checking these two sites often:
https://www.lastvin.com/vin/MjxRadXlyB5deoXrm
http://mbepc.net/en/vin/wdb1260441a204201

Thanks

$ Hi everyone -
$ I spent the money with the Classic Center to get the Data Card for my car,
$ copy attached. Any German speakers out there? They told that it would
$ come in English, and most of it is, but there are five codes described in
$ German and one (#444) that just has two numbers after it. Any help in
$ deciphering this will be appreciated. Thanks…….Neal
$
$ On Monday, June 7, 2021 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-4 paulws...@gmail.com wrote:
$
$> Sell the SL and keep the SEC. You’ll be happier.
$>
$> On Jun 4, 2021, at 11:43 AM, Neal Dion <npd...@gmail.com> wrote:
$>
$> I've been trying to run down some information on my SEC and I've
$> encountered an interesting problem - maybe someone in the group can give
$> me
$> some guidance. The car that I have (VIN # WDB1260441A204201 ) is,
$> according to all of my paperwork (titles, import paperwork, EPA
$> Certifications, etc.), a 1987 560SEC. I believe that this car was
$> purchased by an American for European delivery. It has some unique
$> options
$> that I haven't seen on any other SEC that I have seen on BaT, Hemmings,
$> MBCA publications or any of the other national auction or sales sites.
$> It
$> has a factory installed trip computer (the computer takes the place of
$> where the tach would normally be, the tach is a half circle in the upper
$> left of the dash above the temp gage). It has a gas fired cabin
$> preheater,
$> no self leveling suspension, ortho drivers seat, the selectable
$> transmission and manual two zone heat/AC. The speedometer is in MPH,
$> but
$> some of the controls are in German. Anyway, its kind of an odd duck.
$> When I put the VIN number in several of the VIN search sites, they come
$> back and tell me that it is an incorrect number. Others come back with
$> results that match the car in some respects (color of exterior/interior
$> ,
$> its got a sunroof, heated seats, etc.), but, they say that it is a
$> 500SEC
$> ordered in Henne, Germany and built in October of 1985. Also, none of
$> the
$> "special" options, cited above, are listed. Strange? Also, my
$> understanding is that there were several different engines available
$> (not
$> counting the AMG engines), all the same displacement but different
$> levels
$> of tune. I would really like to know which this car has.
$> Let me make it clear that I am in no way casting any aspersions on the
$> way
$> that the car was represented by the previous owner who bought it
$> directly
$> from the estate of the original owner. All of the paperwork identifies
$> it
$> as an `87 560SEC, but the VIN doesn't. I am toying with the possibility
$> of
$> selling this car. I love this car and I've put about 20K on it since I
$> bought it back in 2014, including a trip from FL to Chicago and back.
$> Every time I drive it I'm impressed by the power and feel of the
$> automobile
$> - its got class! But I have a storage problem (4 cars and a golf cart,
$> 3
$> car garage) and there are a couple of other things that I have my eye on
$> -
$> something has to go, it's either this, my 560SL or my old Land Rover.
$> Any help, advice, suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.........
$>
$> --
$> You are subscribed to the Google Groups "MBCoupes" group
$> To post to this group send email to mbco...@googlegroups.com
$> To unsubscribe send to mbcoupes+u...@googlegroups.com
$> For more options visit http://groups.google.com/group/mbcoupes
$> ---
$> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
$> Groups
$> "MBCoupes" group.
$> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
$> an
$> email to mbcoupes+u...@googlegroups.com.
$> To view this discussion on the web visit
$>
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/mbcoupes/de971e95-e71b-4d61-8726-394827ee7ea2n%40googlegroups.com
$>
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/mbcoupes/de971e95-e71b-4d61-8726-394827ee7ea2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
$> .
$>
$>
$


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Thanks!

Bogi Maramski
224-659-3189

[gerryvz]

This is just the standard data card that is from the MB VeDoc system -- identical information to that avaialble via the EPC/ISPPI from MB  (if you have a subscription), or available for free if you want to plug your VIN into the datamb.com / lastvin.com site.  I SURE hope you didn't actually pay MB money to literally spend all of 15 seconds looking up and printing out (turning into PDF) that document from the VeDoc system !!!!

As far as the codes that you are interested in:

The 444 code with the two numbers means that 444 + the combination of codes 440 and 442 together. 

Code 440 is cruise control (tempomat)

Code 442 is a driver's side airbag (in the steering wheel)

Thiu, Code 444 = Cruise Control + Airbag

Code 278A is your upholstery code -- the legend reads gray perforated leather (literally:  leather perforated gray)

Code 242 has to do with the passenger seat -- Passenger Seat Electrically Adjustable With Memory (literally: Front Seat Right Electrically Adjustable WIth Memory -- same as the code 241 for the driver's seat immediately above it, translated into English)

Code 245 -- Trip Computer (Reiserechner)

Code 260 -- Type Designation on Trunk Lid Removed (came from the factory without any model indicator on trunk)

Code 404 -- Orthopedic driver's seat (literally:  Driver's Seatrest Orthopedic Left)

Code 452 -- Code is temporarily invalid

I think you are MUCH better off using the correctly translated and free data card from the Lastvin.com site, which I've attached.

For further measure, I have attached the "official" MB data card from the ISPPI parts catalog. 

[gerryvz]

One last thing -- the Code 452 is the two-tone "autobahn" horn that is switchable from the center console.  Sorry for the omission on that. 

The reason that a couple of those codes are coming up as invalid is that they are no longer currently used, and thus not findable in current MB option code files.  But if you have a comprehensive code list, such as I have attached, then you will be able to find the older codes that have been phased out, that are applicable to these cars.

Cheers,
Gerry

[Neal Dion]

I want to Thank you all for your help with my research.  You are a very knowledgeable group and I appreciate your insight.
Regards,  Neal Dion

[Neal Dion]

I just wanted to let everyone know that I still have this car and I’m still puzzled by it.  Every time I think about selling it, I take it out for a ride and come back convinced that I should keep it forever!  Anyway, I’m not at all sure how I would list it or explain that it isn’t what it appears to be (do I list it as a 1987 560SEC which is what the Title and all of the paperwork says it is - or - do I list it as a 500SEC which is what the VIN says it really is?).

Early in this thread, someone suggested that I try to get in touch with some in the original owners family.  I finally, was able to locate Joe Offerman’s oldest daughter (the one who handled the estate and sold the car) and she described her father as the ultimate “wheeler dealer”.  She didn’t have a lot of detail on the car itself - she remembered it and that Joe sent his 16 years old son to the New Jersey port to pick it up - but, when I described how the vehicle didn’t really match the import paperwork and the model was different her comment was, “yeah, that sure sounds like something that dad would do”.  He evidently brought several other grey market cars in over the years.  She said that he drove it sparingly for a year or two in Wisconsin then sent it to their winter home in AZ where it stayed and became her mothers car unit she passed away in the 2006.

Thanks……Neal Dion